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Posted: 12/7/2013 6:58:00 AM EST
Can anybody point me to US manufacturers' .22 LR numbers by, say, the last 5 or 10 years?

I'm not a tinfoil hat wearer, but I am beginning to think that they have cut back on production.

I don't believe hoarders could still be buying it all.

I know some areas have seen a little .22 LR for sale, but around here it's as scarce as hen's teeth.

We see numbers for the number of trucks manufactured and such, but I have not seen any production numbers on ammo.

Anybody?
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Link Posted: 12/7/2013 7:00:01 AM EST
I worked at Federal Cartridge in the mid 90's. At full production on the .22 JIT line they could make 7 million .22 LR per day.

I am no conspiracy theorist either, but there is no fucking way in hell the 22LR shortage should have lasted this long.
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Link Posted: 12/7/2013 7:27:20 AM EST
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Originally Posted By Clarinath:
I worked at Federal Cartridge in the mid 90's. At full production on the .22 JIT line they could make 7 million .22 LR per day.

I am no conspiracy theorist either, but there is no fucking way in hell the 22LR shortage should have lasted this long.
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THIS. I am forced, by common sense, to believe that something is going on with ammo "behind the scenes" and that includes .22 LR ammo. I don't care how many 13'ers are buying it at twice the price we older board members think they should be paying, SOMETHING UNUSUAL is going on with ammo - and especially .22 LR ammo and it' s more than a "suppy and demand" issue too.

Remember, this government is capable of ANYTHING. Have we forgotten "Fast and Furious" already? A government that would do that is capable of ANYTHING.
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Link Posted: 12/7/2013 7:33:54 AM EST
[Last Edit: 12/7/2013 7:34:49 AM EST by BoonyCop]
The problem started with the frenzy last year. People purchased .22 firearms, because they were cheap and available. Then they bought out all the ammo! The people who owned .22's bought the ammo, causing the hoarding factor that continues today. The ammo isn't being used, its being hoarded!

Solution.....

Stop looking and buying the junk for a few months. THEN you will see it stocked on the shelves and at a reasonable price.

It's all about sale and demand and the ammo manufactures have us all over the table.
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Link Posted: 12/7/2013 7:39:14 AM EST
i just saw my first 22 ammo on a shelf since sandy hook two days ago. it was in a pawn shop they had 4, 325 round boxes for $50.00 each.

those are the ONLY boxes of 22 ammo i have seen for a full year. you would think they released the very first .22 firearms 10 years ago, and waited 10 years to release the first ammo, the way things are going.
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Link Posted: 12/7/2013 7:40:20 AM EST
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Originally Posted By centurion:


THIS. I am forced, by common sense, to believe that something is going on with ammo "behind the scenes" and that includes .22 LR ammo. I don't care how many 13'ers are buying it at twice the price we older board members think they should be paying, SOMETHING UNUSUAL is going on with ammo - and especially .22 LR ammo and it' s more than a "suppy and demand" issue too.

Remember, this government is capable of ANYTHING. Have we forgotten "Fast and Furious" already? A government that would do that is capable of ANYTHING.
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Originally Posted By centurion:
Originally Posted By Clarinath:
I worked at Federal Cartridge in the mid 90's. At full production on the .22 JIT line they could make 7 million .22 LR per day.

I am no conspiracy theorist either, but there is no fucking way in hell the 22LR shortage should have lasted this long.


THIS. I am forced, by common sense, to believe that something is going on with ammo "behind the scenes" and that includes .22 LR ammo. I don't care how many 13'ers are buying it at twice the price we older board members think they should be paying, SOMETHING UNUSUAL is going on with ammo - and especially .22 LR ammo and it' s more than a "suppy and demand" issue too.

Remember, this government is capable of ANYTHING. Have we forgotten "Fast and Furious" already? A government that would do that is capable of ANYTHING.


Where I live, if you go to Walmart on Friday morning, you will always see a group of rednecks waiting to buy out all the .22 Ammo. It is ALL about "Supply and demand".
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Link Posted: 12/7/2013 7:45:02 AM EST
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Link Posted: 12/7/2013 7:46:06 AM EST
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Originally Posted By BoonyCop:
The problem started with the frenzy last year. People purchased .22 firearms, because they were cheap and available. Then they bought out all the ammo! The people who owned .22's bought the ammo, causing the hoarding factor that continues today. The ammo isn't being used, its being hoarded!

Solution.....

Stop looking and buying the junk for a few months. THEN you will see it stocked on the shelves and at a reasonable price.

It's all about sale and demand and the ammo manufactures have us all over the table.
View Quote

I had a .22cal pellet gun for awhile but it wasn't until the frenzy and ensuing shortage that I really started shooting it.

Now I use it for plinking and small pests, and it's either that or I shoot my pistols, ARs, etc. The .22LR rifles stay in the closet and I haven't purchased .22LR ammunition in over a year.
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Link Posted: 12/7/2013 7:49:47 AM EST
Where I live, if you go to Walmart on Friday morning, you will always see a group of rednecks waiting to buy out all the .22 Ammo. It is ALL about "Supply and demand".


Do you go every Friday morning to Wal Mart?
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Link Posted: 12/7/2013 7:50:03 AM EST
This shit is insane. I have quite a bit, but not enough to want to shoot what I do have.
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Link Posted: 12/7/2013 7:53:57 AM EST
You want to see insane, this vendor is selling 22lr for $.20 a rd, wtf!
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Link Posted: 12/7/2013 7:55:30 AM EST
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Originally Posted By Strikeforces:
Where I live, if you go to Walmart on Friday morning, you will always see a group of rednecks waiting to buy out all the .22 Ammo. It is ALL about "Supply and demand".


Do you go every Friday morning to Wal Mart?
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Heck no! But I talk to the clerks. They just shake their heads and laugh.

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Link Posted: 12/7/2013 7:55:42 AM EST
[Last Edit: 12/7/2013 7:58:13 AM EST by BGENE]
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Originally Posted By iNuhBaDNayburhood:

Federal's current numbers are running around 2.2 to 2.4 Billion rounds per year.
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Originally Posted By iNuhBaDNayburhood:
Originally Posted By Clarinath:
I worked at Federal Cartridge in the mid 90's. At full production on the .22 JIT line they could make 7 million .22 LR per day.

I am no conspiracy theorist either, but there is no fucking way in hell the 22LR shortage should have lasted this long.

Federal's current numbers are running around 2.2 to 2.4 Billion rounds per year.


On the low end that is 2,200 Million per year/50 States = 44 million per State, divided by 12 months, roughly 3 Million plus per State per month, and this is just Federal (which incorporates a lot of companies), something does not add up, none to be found here.

Edit, previous comment of 7M per day is approximately 2.5B per year which matches the other number.
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Link Posted: 12/7/2013 7:56:08 AM EST
I have about 20k stored away at this point, so I really don't care. But, in talking to a guy from Boy Scouts I know (he owns 2 Ace hardware stores), he told me he simply can't even order LR. Shorts he can, but he says the suppliers don't even have it to sell to him. So, that would seem to take the neckbeards weirdness out of the equation. Why can't he order, so idea, but it seems off.
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Link Posted: 12/7/2013 7:56:52 AM EST
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Originally Posted By iNuhBaDNayburhood:

Federal's current numbers are running around 2.2 to 2.4 Billion rounds per year.
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Originally Posted By iNuhBaDNayburhood:
Originally Posted By Clarinath:
I worked at Federal Cartridge in the mid 90's. At full production on the .22 JIT line they could make 7 million .22 LR per day.

I am no conspiracy theorist either, but there is no fucking way in hell the 22LR shortage should have lasted this long.

Federal's current numbers are running around 2.2 to 2.4 Billion rounds per year.
The math is not coming up right if we could make 7 million per day and only currently producing 2.2 to 2.4 Billion round per year.
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Link Posted: 12/7/2013 7:57:20 AM EST
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Link Posted: 12/7/2013 7:57:20 AM EST
I found a place that gives me a steady supply at 100 rounds at a time.
Haven't shot much of it, just been buying a few boxes here and there. It's still overpriced but not by much.
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Link Posted: 12/7/2013 7:58:45 AM EST
It's very obvious that we're seeing the followers of GunKid getting off their butts and buying all the 22LR they can for their TSHTF arsenals. Wonder are they using their wheelbarrows to haul all of it back home from the stores?
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Link Posted: 12/7/2013 7:59:49 AM EST
I see 22 every week between the LGS, Dunhams, Walmart, and Gun shows.

I bought 4 of various brand 500 round boxes just a week ago. It's out there, just getting grabbed up as soon as it appears.

Now 300 blackout, that's the mythical beast no one can find around here.
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Link Posted: 12/7/2013 8:02:39 AM EST
I started shooting more .22 when 5.56 got to spendy. Now it seems that the AR is almost as cheap to feed.
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Link Posted: 12/7/2013 8:03:58 AM EST
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Link Posted: 12/7/2013 8:04:26 AM EST
What's the profit margin on .22 vs other rounds?
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Link Posted: 12/7/2013 8:07:42 AM EST
I bought a 1000 rd brick yesterday morning. That's the first .22 ammo I've seen since last year. And yes, I'm going to join the neck beards Monday morning at 8am sharp and buy the crap out of it.
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Link Posted: 12/7/2013 8:13:43 AM EST
I for one am no longer buying into the demand being the problem. The supply just is not there. Small dealers can not get any from the distributors. Wall-Mart can not make it last more then a few hours. The big sporting goods retailers can never get enough. The supply just does not seem to be there. After a year it would begin to straighten out but I see no signs it is getting any better. This country has ammo production capabilities to supply a major war and we can meet the demands of civilian 22 shooters! I ain't buying it. If the neckbeards are buying it all then why are they not filling the demand through their sales. They can't get enough or they would not be buying everyday. In this part of the country you can't even fin 30-30 anymore. Something stinks.
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Link Posted: 12/7/2013 8:16:15 AM EST
I suspect that there are more 22LR guns out there than everything else combined. sometime last year, everyone started to think ammo was going to be banned like foreva! Suddenly you had demand on 22LR that had not been seen in quite awhile.

As others have said, production was probably shifted to more profitable centerfire cartridges. I am starting to see a steady of supply of 22LR hit the markets daily - the problem is the demand is still high and it's snatched up. But the supply chain is starting to meet demand daily, instead of weekly - so that's a good sign.

Now we just need pricing to follow.

I kid you not, as soon as I can buy 20,000 rds of 22LR at a "normal price", I'm going to do it. I'm not going through this again. I had about 3k rounds at the panic and shoot almost weekly. I had to stop shooting 22LR to avoid burning it. My centerfire guns and reloading press have seen a lot more work in 2013.
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Link Posted: 12/7/2013 8:16:45 AM EST
A few months back the Cabelas store near me had some. They were limiting sales to 100 rounds per person per day. They too are out, but occasionally get some in. I haven't seen 22 lr at Walmart since before Sandy Hook. :(
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Link Posted: 12/7/2013 8:18:04 AM EST
.22 LR is manufactured all over the world.
I'm suprised we are not seeing more of it being imported.

I've seen Armscore and Ely locally but that about it.

Right now I would welcome the chance to but the Russian .22 that I scoffed at years ago
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Link Posted: 12/7/2013 8:28:33 AM EST
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Link Posted: 12/7/2013 8:35:14 AM EST
I'm finally starting to see a bit more of it. The problem is all the people that camp out every morning to buy it.
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Link Posted: 12/7/2013 8:38:03 AM EST
[Last Edit: 12/7/2013 8:38:43 AM EST by I_am_Dan]
My LGS has had a constant supply of .22 in the back room that he would dole out when someone bought a gun. He has had a couple of boxes on the shelf for sale for ythe last month or so. And yesterday he told me he just received an invoice for $10k worth of .22




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Link Posted: 12/7/2013 8:39:45 AM EST
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Originally Posted By BGENE:


On the low end that is 2,200 Million per year/50 States = 44 million per State, divided by 12 months, roughly 3 Million plus per State per month, and this is just Federal (which incorporates a lot of companies), something does not add up, none to be found here.

Edit, previous comment of 7M per day is approximately 2.5B per year which matches the other number.
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Originally Posted By BGENE:
Originally Posted By iNuhBaDNayburhood:
Originally Posted By Clarinath:
I worked at Federal Cartridge in the mid 90's. At full production on the .22 JIT line they could make 7 million .22 LR per day.

I am no conspiracy theorist either, but there is no fucking way in hell the 22LR shortage should have lasted this long.

Federal's current numbers are running around 2.2 to 2.4 Billion rounds per year.


On the low end that is 2,200 Million per year/50 States = 44 million per State, divided by 12 months, roughly 3 Million plus per State per month, and this is just Federal (which incorporates a lot of companies), something does not add up, none to be found here.

Edit, previous comment of 7M per day is approximately 2.5B per year which matches the other number.
Lets say there are 100,000,000 (Not exact, just a rough number for example) people participating in this. That means that federal only makes 22 rounds per person per year. If total production is 10x that with all the manufactures that is still only half a bulk pack per person. The market could easily eat that much.
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Link Posted: 12/7/2013 8:40:38 AM EST
It's because of the sig 522, GSG, SW 15-22, etc, etc. in the recent years. Consumption has gone way up.
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Link Posted: 12/7/2013 8:41:39 AM EST
I don't see a lot of people shooting .22 at the range, so I wonder if all the buyers are just sticking it in their closets.
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Link Posted: 12/7/2013 8:44:56 AM EST
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Originally Posted By graysonp:
The production lines to manufacture rimfire ammo can't easily be converted to produce center fire ammo. No one is cutting 22LR production to focus on more expensive calibers. By doing that, millions of dollars in equipment would just sit idle for no reason.

It is 100% demand driven. There is no other factor or conspiracy behind it. You guys blaming the government or claiming manufacturers are holding back on purpose are just being obtuse. Do the math yourself. It all adds up to a consumer driven shortage.

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Powder did/has been scarce in bulk. Would that have any impact on what was produced? Not converting a line per say, but simply not running it at max to ensure they had ample supply for more profitable products. Just spitballing here...
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Link Posted: 12/7/2013 8:48:38 AM EST
If Glock does come thru with a .380, we will see a similar event happen to that caliber. 380 just got back to availability from near extinction 4 years ago.











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Link Posted: 12/7/2013 8:50:20 AM EST
I buy a couple hundred rounds of .22LR every week. Its out there at a fairly reasonable price if you look for it. And I am not hoarding it, I shoot almost every day at my backyard range. (Although I do have enough in my ammo cabinet to last a fairly long time if I can't keep it replenished.)
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Link Posted: 12/7/2013 8:55:35 AM EST
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Link Posted: 12/7/2013 8:56:09 AM EST
I would have figured that the factories would have expanded their production capabilities to help cover this. Even before last December it was hit and miss for 22lr on the shelves where I was. I have bought 100 rounds of target 22lr since last December to feed my Savage for target shooting. I just haven' taken it out to shoot it because I can't find ammo.
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Link Posted: 12/7/2013 9:02:33 AM EST
A couple of years ago there was a "Shooting USA" show or something on TV and they had a tour of CCI showing their rimfire ammo production. They made something like 87 gazilion rounds of .22 LR every day. I forget the actual numbers they gave but they were producing an amazing volume of ammo. I don't understand how there can still be a shortage.
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Link Posted: 12/7/2013 9:09:53 AM EST
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Originally Posted By graysonp:
The production lines to manufacture rimfire ammo can't easily be converted to produce center fire ammo. No one is cutting 22LR production to focus on more expensive calibers. By doing that, millions of dollars in equipment would just sit idle for no reason.

It is 100% demand driven. There is no other factor or conspiracy behind it. You guys blaming the government or claiming manufacturers are holding back on purpose are just being obtuse. Do the math yourself. It all adds up to a consumer driven shortage.

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I completely understand that... but what's astounding to me is that there's no talk of increasing .22LR production anywhere. Armscor is IIRC the only new name I've seen pop up in the .22LR market, and I haven't actually laid eyes on a box of that myself.

You'd think that Tula, Prvi, or someone else would be jumping all over the chance to capitalize on this huge demand, but apparently not so much.
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Link Posted: 12/7/2013 9:10:29 AM EST
Its coming in more and more in my area.
Just in the last few weeks I've scored 1000rds of M-22, a bucket of Rem Golden Bullet, and believe it or not a 100pk of CCI Mini-Mag at Wal-Mart!
I haven't seen Mini-Mag at Wal-Mart in almost two years.
Its coming in but getting scarfed up as soon as it hits the shelves. The Neck-Beards here text all the other Neck-Beards and they descend on it like buzzards on road kill.
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Link Posted: 12/7/2013 9:10:33 AM EST
There's a video on YouTube from the CCI factory saying they make 4,000,000 rounds per day. Someone above says it's 6,000,000. And someone says Federal makes 7,000,000 a day.

Say that's 13,000,000 per day between the two. There are 40,000 gun stores in America. That means each one gets 325 rounds per store per day. Then, with other manufacturers and importers, let's say it's 1000 rounds per store per day.

That's just about nothing. I have 30,000 rounds on back order at Midway. That's a month's supply for one store.

Add to that the increase in 22LR weapons and all the new shooters and new hoarders in the last year. It's going to take a while to catch up.
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Link Posted: 12/7/2013 9:19:27 AM EST
Survivalists and women want .22lr.

Also, look at the number of .22 conversion kits and .22 copies of AR-15, AK, MP5, STG, ect. type weapons.

Everybody and their mother (literally) wants .22lr ammo.

Shortage explained.
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Link Posted: 12/7/2013 9:20:28 AM EST
[Last Edit: 12/7/2013 9:21:04 AM EST by memphisliving]
I talked to a gun guy who was working at Sports Authority just the other day.

He said there are old men who drive up to places like Wal-Mart, park, and wait for the trucks to show up every morning. It's the same small group of guys who are going around our town buying it just as its unloaded.

I wish they would just raise the price and put an end to this.
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Link Posted: 12/7/2013 9:20:38 AM EST
Meanwhile, I've bought three airsoft guns in 2013.
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Link Posted: 12/7/2013 9:21:41 AM EST
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Originally Posted By Alacran:
Meanwhile, I've bought three airsoft guns in 2013.
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A co-worker bought 3 BB/pellet guns this year.
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Link Posted: 12/7/2013 9:24:25 AM EST
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Originally Posted By graysonp:


Not really. Powders have different burn rates and densities. The powder used for 22LR is not going to be the same as powders used for centerfire calibers.

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Originally Posted By graysonp:
Originally Posted By The_Waabit:
Originally Posted By graysonp:
The production lines to manufacture rimfire ammo can't easily be converted to produce center fire ammo. No one is cutting 22LR production to focus on more expensive calibers. By doing that, millions of dollars in equipment would just sit idle for no reason.

It is 100% demand driven. There is no other factor or conspiracy behind it. You guys blaming the government or claiming manufacturers are holding back on purpose are just being obtuse. Do the math yourself. It all adds up to a consumer driven shortage.

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Powder did/has been scarce in bulk. Would that have any impact on what was produced? Not converting a line per say, but simply not running it at max to ensure they had ample supply for more profitable products. Just spitballing here...


Not really. Powders have different burn rates and densities. The powder used for 22LR is not going to be the same as powders used for centerfire calibers.

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Ah, gotcha. Back to the "everyone is trying to fill their personal conex full" theory then.
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Link Posted: 12/7/2013 9:25:42 AM EST
[Last Edit: 12/7/2013 9:26:09 AM EST by The_Waabit]
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Originally Posted By memphisliving:
I talked to a gun guy who was working at Sports Authority just the other day.

He said there are old men who drive up to places like Wal-Mart, park, and wait for the trucks to show up every morning. It's the same small group of guys who are going around our town buying it just as its unloaded.

I wish they would just raise the price and put an end to this.
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Then many here would cry price gouging.
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Link Posted: 12/7/2013 9:30:12 AM EST
[Last Edit: 12/7/2013 9:41:08 AM EST by PR361]
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Originally Posted By graysonp:
It's just supply and demand. It's that simple. There's no grand conspiracy, and ammo manufacturers haven't cut back on production. Looking at our 22LR sales this year, it's obvious that the shortage is 100% consumer driven. The guys who normally buy 50-100 rounds a year to make it through squirrel season, are trying to stock up and buy 4-5 bricks at a time now. The guys who normally buy 2-3 bricks at a time are buying 2-3 cases at a time. You multiply that by all the 22LR shooters in the country, and there's just no way manufacturers can keep up. You also have to remember that there has been a huge spike in 22LR gun sales, now that other ammo is rising in prices. There are tons of new 22LR AR rifles on the market, and new pistols (SR22, M&P22, all the 1911 22s, etc). These guns are driving 22LR ammo sales much higher than it was 10-20 years ago.

Even the math adds up. CCI reportedly produces 6 million rounds of 22LR per day. 6 million rounds is only 12,000 bricks. So in a week's time (running 7 days a week), they would only produce about 84,000 bricks of 22LR ammo. There are about 130,000 gun dealers in the US, which means that CCI can only produce enough ammo for them to each get less than 1 brick of ammo per week. How long will a brick of 22LR ammo last at your local gun store? When you consider that the big stores are getting a case or two a week, most of the little guys aren't getting anything.

Think about what it would take for the shortage to end. How many bricks of 22LR could your local gun shop sell before customers stop buying it? 100? 500? In order to send 100 bricks of 22LR to every gun store in the nation, CCI would need to produce ammo 10+ times as fast as they currently are, just to catch up.
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This^ describes our current reality.

The yomama administration has created the greatest buying and hoarding frenzy this country has ever seen and I doubt it will end before he is out of office.

ETA: A friends dad recently passed, he was a retired " Gun Guy". He had a collection of 300+ guns, and my friend, who is not counting it, estimates that there is 100,000 + rounds of ammo stashed away in his little old 900sq ft house.

Multiply that old man X 1 million others like him, jut the little fringe element of gun owners.

People vastly underestimate the scale of our numbers, and overestimate the number and capacity of ammo producers.

There's no conspiracy, just everybody woke up and started buying at the same time.
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Link Posted: 12/7/2013 9:34:12 AM EST
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Originally Posted By memphisliving:
I talked to a gun guy who was working at Sports Authority just the other day.

He said there are old men who drive up to places like Wal-Mart, park, and wait for the trucks to show up every morning. It's the same small group of guys who are going around our town buying it just as its unloaded.

I wish they would just raise the price and put an end to this.
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That's what CTD did and people here screamed BLOODY MURDER!
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Link Posted: 12/7/2013 10:35:01 AM EST
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Originally Posted By graysonp:
The production lines to manufacture rimfire ammo can't easily be converted to produce center fire ammo. No one is cutting 22LR production to focus on more expensive calibers. By doing that, millions of dollars in equipment would just sit idle for no reason.

It is 100% demand driven. There is no other factor or conspiracy behind it. You guys blaming the government or claiming manufacturers are holding back on purpose are just being obtuse. Do the math yourself. It all adds up to a consumer driven shortage.

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Usually when demand reaches this magnitude & for this long, you see new suppliers start popping up everywhere or you see established suppliers build additional production lines.

Just look at the AR lower market a while back...a sack of gold couldn't buy you one , now you get one with every 5th fill-up almost.

When's the last time you heard Remington, Federal, Winchester, CCI announce they were opening up a new .22 production line?

No...its more than just consumer driven. I think the big manufacturers are just sitting back and enjoying the full employment and milking the high demand at Their pace, trying to stretch it out as long as they can rather than go back to the spikes and valleys of consumerism.
Its a win/win for them to keep production the same and have no additional costs for putting in an additional line.
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