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Tactical_Jew
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Posted: 11/25/2002 11:27:42 AM
Worker who fed pups to snake loses job at pound September 24, 2002 BY KIM NORTH SHINE FREE PRESS STAFF WRITER A Detroit Animal Control worker who cared for impounded strays and pets has been fired for feeding a litter of live, weeks-old puppies to a large snake, officials said Monday. The snake, believed to be a python confiscated during a police raid, has been placed in a sanctuary, city animal control officials said. The female animal control worker, who the city has declined to name pending charges, was fired for the incident that happened late last month. "I can't fathom why anyone would do this," said Judith West, deputy director of the Detroit Health Department, which oversees the animal control facility on Jefferson near the Ambassador Bridge. She insisted it was an isolated incident. Although the deaths of the puppies were troubling, critics of the city's antiquated animal control facility said that had they not been eaten alive, they would have faced death in a carbon monoxide chamber, which is seldom used in Michigan or elsewhere in the United States. A report of the incident has been forwarded to the Wayne County Prosecutor's Office and charges are pending, West said. Investigators say charges could range from felony animal cruelty, to an abuse of position by the employee, who was investigated by the city's internal controls section. "It will be up to them to decide what action to take," West said. West refused to say how many puppies were fed to the snake or how many feedings took place. The ages and breeds of the pups and further details about the snake also were kept confidential by West to avoid affecting the outcome of the case, she said. West said fellow animal control workers reportedly witnessed the feedings. Those workers are not likely to be charged. Snakes that survive on small animals, mostly rodents, don't require frequent or large meals, experts say. Once their meal is caught, some snakes coil themselves around the prey to suffocate it. Once the prey stops moving, the snake begins the process of swallowing it. The feeding typically lasts several minutes. Some other types of snakes kill by suffocating their prey by squeezing it with their jaws. An investigation showed no evidence of systemic cruelty within the facility, West said. However, Detroit's animal control facility has fended off criticism in the past for mistakes that killed animals with waiting homes and for its euthanasia practices. The chief complaints against Detroit Animal Control, according to critics who speak out at City Council meetings and through animal welfare venues, is its use of carbon monoxide gas to euthanize animals. The city also sells animals to dealers who then sell them to researchers. Of the animals the city takes in, few are adopted. The vast majority of the thousands of unwanted animals that go through the facility each year die in a 4-foot-by-4-foot gas chamber, according to city statistics. So far this year, 4,576 animals, mostly dogs and cats, were gassed, according to city records. "It is an excruciatingly painful death," said Sandy Rowland, director of the Great Lakes region of the Humane Society of the United States. Of the 5,750 animals taken in this year, 529 were adopted, 632 were returned to owners and 13 went to research, city officials said. In 2000, only 78 out of more than 9,000 animals were adopted. Joe Sowerby, a commercial real-estate agent who helped found the Meet Your Best Friend at the Zoo animal adoption event, said he was upset by the puppy killings -- but not surprised. "It's a terrible way to go, but whether it's snake or gassing, either way all the oxygen is squeezed out of you," he said. In two surprise announcements, West said the department has recently drawn up a city ordinance amendment that would ban such sales to researchers and also phase out the use of gas in favor of phenobarbital injections. In the past, the more accepted practice of injections has been ignored by the city because it was deemed too costly. The department is planning to broaden its mission of keeping strays and dangerous animals off city streets to include handling them with compassion, West said. This includes finding owners for homeless animals through participation in adoption events.
The_Camp_Ninja
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Posted: 11/25/2002 11:34:19 AM
So what? Next up: "Man found to be feeding Cow to his friends", "Mother accused of feeding chickens to her children", etc.
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Posted: 11/25/2002 11:39:32 AM
[Last Edit: 11/25/2002 11:40:24 AM by Balzac72]
SO WHAT? She was entrusted with the responsibility of finding the puppies new homes, NOT executing them via a snake. There's a big difference between a rat meal and a puppy meal. Those animals could have made ideal pets for some kid for Christmas whose parents can't afford to buy a dog. Oh yeah, your logic fuckin sucks. You want to compare a food animal to a pet? Try again, you might make more sense.
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Posted: 11/25/2002 11:49:42 AM
I'd rather them be recycled the natural way than to be gassed and burried. yeh it sucks, but the artical said they would have been put down any way. still sucks tho
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Posted: 11/25/2002 12:20:13 PM
Couldn't the snakes have been fed some inmates from the county jail, or at least cats?
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Posted: 11/25/2002 12:24:36 PM
I can never respond to these types of stories in a way that doesn't piss people off. Carbon Monoxide death is "horribly painful"? WTF! Can't think of a better way to go. Outrage at this woman is purely the result of emotional manipulation and fuzzy feelings, and not anything truely moral. Had this been shown on PBS, it would be called "educational". A National Geographic cover could be adorned with this "troubled" snake, and we would be treated with sob stories about how it's habitat is being destroyed by humans thus forcing it to feed on domestic mammals. I hate animal shelters. Animal control types where I live are the goddammed Animal Nazis. They make it hard to adopt pets because they'd apparently rather kill them. I've adopted both dogs and cats, but I had to lie on the form. They would not allow me to adopt if they found out I lived on a farm. Apparantly it is better to die from lethal injection in a cage than live free and easy in the country. Oh, they'll readily allow some smelly grandma adopt a German Shepherd, who will keep the thing caged all day while she is playing bingo, and rarely ever let out into her worthless 10x12 foot yard, that is littered with fake deer, mirror balls, gnomes and garden flags. Freakin animal Nazi's! The law enforcement jurisdiction they have is staggering. I had to sign away control over my own freakin house just to adopt a damn kitten!
SteyrAUG
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Posted: 11/25/2002 12:30:06 PM
What kind of sick twisted bitch feeds puppies to a snake? That is like Grimm fairytale shit. Does she live in a candy house?
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AR15
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Posted: 11/25/2002 12:36:36 PM
Hey Balzac, I have had a few pet rats when I was a kid and I loved them. Now what was the difference between the two again? Oh, your logic says that because you like puppies more than rats, the rats should be killed. You base your logic on cuteness?
AR15
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Posted: 11/25/2002 12:39:57 PM
SteyrAUG, please explain the difference between feeding puppies or another animal.
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Posted: 11/25/2002 12:50:23 PM
The snake has to eat, seems like a real sensible thing to do with unwanted puppies, cats, birds etc. Ever see how the cows, pigs, chickens etc. are treated at farms, feedlots, and slaughterhouses? If you are not a vegan, you should have no problem with this.
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Posted: 11/25/2002 12:50:36 PM
I applaud this woman for taking the initiave. Waste not want not. I love dogs, especially pups, but pups without a home, destined for the gas chamber (then the incinerator) were put to good use. Hell, I think they should find uses for all the euthanized animals. Feed them to hogs, use the pelts to make coats, fertilizer etc. I've eaten dog before and it wasn't bad.
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Posted: 11/25/2002 12:53:30 PM
I am planning to start up a small rabbit breeding 'business' that sole market will be feeder animals for snakes. while I like rabbits,I really don't see the difference between being killed and eaten by a human,fox,dog OR snake....being killed is being killed. If the puppies were to be killed anyway what difference does it make? This is the sort of emotionalism that goes on about hunting....somehow being torn apart(while alive) is a better death for an elk or deer than being shot and killed by a hunter. Treat animals humanely while alive but killing is killing.
Citabria7GCBC
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Posted: 11/25/2002 1:31:32 PM
snakes are people too...they have to eat.
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Posted: 11/25/2002 2:15:46 PM
So what was the problem again? Balzac72, based on the numbers, this dog(s) wasn't going to be adopted anyway. It was going to die either way. What's the difference between a rat, a rabbit or a puppy if it's going to be used as food? Besides, that's what the dog gets for being lower down on the food chain. I doubt they would have tried to feed the snake an alligator.
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Posted: 11/25/2002 2:24:09 PM
I feel what is at issue here is, what kind of jerk has a snake as a pet.
jrzy
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Posted: 11/25/2002 2:41:24 PM
I believe things from your childhood have a very profound bearing on the way you view most things as an adult. When I was about 6 years old a neighborhood German Shepard was hit by a car and was dying,the dog catcher came by and picked the Shepard up by it's front and hind legs and threw it into a pick up truck very violently. I remember to this day the sound that poor dog made and the look on this jerk offs face. I remember the adults watching getting real mad and cussing at the guy. The dogcatcher said something smart mouth and my neighbors dad took a few steps in his direction and he jumped in the truck and took off. We jump ahead,I am now 22 years old and having a beer with some friends at a local bar and there is a guy there telling stories about where he works (dog pound) he is telling a story about what him and one of his buddies did to a German Shepard one night with lighter fluid when they were drunk one night. One of my friends ask me what was wrong ,I guess because of the look on my face he said later,he said he had only seen that look on me once before and that was when some guy tried to attack his sister at a dance in high school. I don't remember getting off the bar stool and I don't remember closing the distance between him and I ,what I remember is the first punch I threw knocking down,the second punch I threw when he got up knocked him out. My great great grand father was the very first police chief in this town and my family was well known so I didn't get into to much trouble and the guy was fired about a week later,it seems they found out after this incident that he was abusing a lot of the animals. Funny how you get a lot of memories come flooding back when you read AR15.com

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Dolomite
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Posted: 11/25/2002 3:16:45 PM
Good job jrzy. I for one fully believe that anybody that tortures animals for amusement has invalidated their own ticket. Even if the guy was just a blowhard, he obviously deserved to have a correction applied for acting the way he was. Anyway, speaking of Detroit and animal control: anybody seen that Pet Precinct show on the AnNimal Channel. They're in Detroit working w/ their Humane Society. They went to a house that someone owned but never used. The owner kept on putting cats in the vacant house for some reason (hint: he was INSANE). The humane society came over and found these things dripping in their own crap and piss. They'd never been outside, and for the most part, the only human contact they experienced was the Humane Society catchers wearing full chemical suits grabbing them with those tongs old ladies use to retrieve cans of soup from tall shelves. It was horrible - these cats were rightly labeled "feral" and were collected in cardboard boxes while they awaited euthanasia. To top it all off - the didn't even arrest the owner! The only suggested to him that he seek the care of a shrink. Chances are he'll probably start "collecting" pets again. The Humane Society officers in the show were pretty impressive with regard to haow much they cared about animals IMO.
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Kihn
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Posted: 11/25/2002 4:38:59 PM
Obviously the Detroit Animal Control worker is "Cat People".

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MadProfessor
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Posted: 11/25/2002 4:46:28 PM
At least it wasent her children.
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Posted: 11/25/2002 4:53:52 PM
Originally Posted By Dolomite: ...It was horrible - these cats were rightly labeled "feral" and were collected in cardboard boxes while they awaited euthanasia...
I guess it could've been an ugly ending, but noooooo! The damn animal Nazi's decided to kill 'em all! If Animal Nazis really cared about animals, they would just set them free instead of trying to kill each and every animal that they can find that doesn't have a rhinestone collar with a "Muffy" nametag. Even a scrawny cat can find it's place in the food chain.
Helldog40
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Posted: 11/25/2002 5:03:54 PM
Hey JRZY, Nice move! While I think it might have been a little more "humane" to perhaps euthanize the puppies before using them as snake food (many domesticated boids WILL eat dead meat if it is fresh, often times rats have to be given as fresh killed so they don't chomp on an especially slow or dim-witted pet snake) I think the MANNER of this shelter's killing (CO) was crueler than suffocation by constriction. I love dogs and have had pet snakes in the past. While I wouldn't go looking for pupppies to feed my snake, I can see the ladie's point: the snake had to eat, probably no funds available for rodents, puppies going to be killed....logical overall I suppose. While unpleasant, I don't think she needed to be fired and pilloried for it...There's a world of difference between gratuitous animal cruelty and what this technician did. Just my two cents.
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Posted: 11/25/2002 5:17:03 PM
Originally Posted By Helldog40: ...I think the MANNER of this shelter's killing (CO) was crueler than suffocation by constriction...
I'm not sure what effects carbon monoxide has on domestic animals like dogs, and I'm not exactly a chemistry professor, but unless I'm mistaken: I though carbon monoxide killed by bonding itself to "red" blood cells in such a way that it prevented them from shuttling oxygen around the body, and that the end result of this was that the slowly diminishing oxygen supply to your brain would cause you to painlessly drowse off and die without any of the psychological panic associated with "traditional" suffocation. Isn't this the shit that turns you pink after it kills you, and is the potentially deadly component of car exhaust? If I'm right, and I think I am, drifting gently off to the "Big Sleep," isn't just un-cruel, its a downright [I]enviable[/I] way to die. What the hell is it with left-wing activist group and outright LYING?
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Posted: 11/25/2002 5:24:17 PM
Lethal injection is a painful way to go. You could ask Cinder, our black lab, but she died 6 years ago. She moaned when she got the shot. Carbon Monoxide is about the best way to die.
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Posted: 11/25/2002 5:46:17 PM
I wish I didnt read that.
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Posted: 11/25/2002 7:23:01 PM
Why not kill the snake and make some nice wallets, shoes or handbags... Sell them at inflated prices to some yuppie wench and use the money to feed the puppies.
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Rickyj
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Posted: 11/25/2002 9:22:50 PM
Originally Posted By jrzy: I don't remember getting off the bar stool and I don't remember closing the distance between him and I ,what I remember is the first punch I threw knocking down,the second punch I threw when he got up knocked him out. My great great grand father was the very first police chief in this town and my family was well known so I didn't get into to much trouble and the guy was fired about a week later,it seems they found out after this incident that he was abusing a lot of the animals. Funny how you get a lot of memories come flooding back when you read AR15.com
Wow you are a hero[rolleyes], beat up some drunk then go run for protection in your familys name. Sound more like a regular street punk to me. You guys saying this is sick are out of your minds. What do you think happens out in the jungle? The snake invites the baby animal over for some mac n' cheese? [rolleyes] What would have been a better thing to feed the snake? Maybe kill a farm animal so that the puppies could die in the gas chamber instead of the snakes coils? How many of you guys hunt? Or is death by a .30-06 painless and natural[rolleyes]
Balzac72
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Posted: 11/26/2002 12:11:52 AM
AR15, you want my logic? Ok, how about this....which animal is domesticated? Which animal serves a purpose besides being a laboratory pin cushion? Want more? Ok...which animal gestates longer, which is directly correlated to higher intelligence? Which can be trained to do complex chores? Did I mention anything about "cuteness" in my original post or are you pulling that out of your ass? Why are rats better for food? Because they breed like crazy and you can keep a snake alive a long time on a couple breeding pairs of rats/mice. Want more? Which animal has intelligence? Which animal fetches your slippers? Which would defend you and your family to its death? Now keep in mind that I have also owned mice as a kid and I loved em, but I can STILL see that they are better suited to food than the dogs. Puppies are just NOT supposed to be food for fuckin snakes. RickyJ, why don't you just fuck off. What happens in the jungle? The mother dog bites the fuckin head off of the snake, that's what happens. Oh wait...dogs aren't in the jungle. Jrzy tells us about a guy that abuses dogs and you take the jerk off's side? Kill any animals yourself recently? JRZY, I hope to meet you so I can buy you a beer for the two good hits. Animal abusers should be shot. Needless to say, I feel very strongly about animals that depend on us to take care of them. The snake needs to eat, but puppies were not the way to do it. I believe it would have been more humane to gas them IF NEED BE.
SteyrAUG
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Posted: 11/26/2002 12:25:45 AM
Originally Posted By AR15: SteyrAUG, please explain the difference between feeding puppies or another animal.
If you can't figure out what is wrong with getting rid of unwanted puppies by feeding them to a snake then I probably couldn't explain it to you. Some of us just know right from wrong.
It's hard to be a ACLU hating, philosophically Libertarian, socially liberal, fiscally conservative, scientifically grounded, agnostic, porn admiring gun owner who believes in self determination.

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jrzy
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Posted: 11/26/2002 12:38:46 AM
Originally Posted By Balzac72: JRZY, I hope to meet you so I can buy you a beer for the two good hits. Animal abusers should be shot.
The first beer is on me ,I have read many of your posts and you and I are usually on the same page [beer]

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Rickyj
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Posted: 11/26/2002 12:57:01 AM
[Last Edit: 11/26/2002 1:00:56 AM by Rickyj]
Balzac, are you another one of those internet tough guys I keep hearing about. LOL [rolleyes] I did not defend the guy jrzy punched, what I said was basically that he sounds like a street punk. Just guessing that this sick animal abuser was drunk off his ass, then jrzy kicked his ass and ran to the protection of his family name. I do not and never will have respect for somebody that hides behind their family to avoid responsiblity. They are always proud of their little advantage and represent a huge abuse of the system. In any case abusing animals is wrong. You guys still think like little kids, no offense. A dog has more rights because it is a smarter animal? So killing a cat would be even worse? Oh, and I hate to break it to you but rat's [b]are[/b] smart animals. You can teach them just like you can a dog. Lab rats are domesticated they don't round up rats off the street. An animal is an animal. How you could be indifferent to the torture of lab rats but feel that a natural death of a puppy is outrageous can only be explained by some mental defect. Two questions for the all wise balzac: What would be better to feed a snake then an animal condemnded to death? Are your opinions of animals all formed from watching Disney movies or does it just come across that way?
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Posted: 11/26/2002 2:09:17 AM
[Last Edit: 11/29/2002 1:14:49 AM by jrzy]
Originally Posted By Rickyj: Wow you are a hero[rolleyes], beat up some drunk then go run for protection in your familys name. Sound more like a regular street punk to me.
First of all he wasn't drunk and neither was I,second I didn't run and hide behind my family's name, some of the officers that showed up knew my family and asked the dick head if he wanted to press charges instead of throwing me in a squad car (he didn't),WTF is your problem,the guy had it coming as do most loud mouths (get the point yet) And no I was not a street punk then and I am not now,I was on the navy boxing team and continued after I got home (all amateur bouts)I think you are a weak person who has to attack people to make yourself feel better about your own inadequacies. What's the matter ricky did you get beat up a lot when you were a kid?

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Posted: 11/26/2002 2:16:23 AM
Originally Posted By Balzac72: AR15, you want my logic? Ok, how about this....which animal is domesticated?
Rats, pigs, horses, cows, sheep, dogs, cats...
Which animal serves a purpose besides being a laboratory pin cushion?
see above
Want more? Ok...which animal gestates longer, which is directly correlated to higher intelligence?
Dogs gestate between 53 and 72 days, rodents gestate generally gestate at around 63 days (altho mice are only 19 days). But a horse gestates 330 days... now that definitely makes the horse smarter ::rolleyes:: cows gestate around 275-300 days, another super smart animal... they're so smart they keep undercover and are planning a secret hostile takeover of our country in the near future.
Want more? Which animal has intelligence?
actually, some pigs are smarter than most dogs... do you eat bacon? ham? sausage? pork chops? Rats and mice aren't used as lab rats because they're stupid, either.
Which animal fetches your slippers? Which would defend you and your family to its death?
cats come to mind... the siamese cats were trained to jump on people's heads and claw at their eyes.
Now keep in mind that I have also owned mice as a kid and I loved em, but I can STILL see that they are better suited to food than the dogs. Puppies are just NOT supposed to be food for fuckin snakes.
Last I checked, more places around the world eat dogs than rats. In fact, there are entire temples dedicated to worshiping rats and mice... and you're considered very fortunate if one bites you.
RickyJ, why don't you just fuck off. What happens in the jungle? The mother dog bites the fuckin head off of the snake, that's what happens. Oh wait...dogs aren't in the jungle.
Right, we genetically engineered dogs, they don't exist in the jungle... oh wait, just wolves, coyotes, hyenas, and plenty other "dogs". But they're not domesticated, so tey're not REALLY dogs, right? Sorry, but your theory is quite flawed. and for the record, It doesn't matter to me one way or the other how the puppies were taken care of. They would have been killed one way or the other, this way was at least natural and served a purpose.
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Posted: 11/26/2002 2:40:44 AM
Originally Posted By jrzy:
Originally Posted By Rickyj: Wow you are a hero[rolleyes], beat up some drunk then go run for protection in your familys name. Sound more like a regular street punk to me.
First of all he wasn't drunk and neither was I,second I didn't run and hide behind my family's name, some of the officers that showed up knew my family and asked the dick head if he wanted to press charges instead of throwing me in a squad car (he didn't),WTF is your problem,the guy had it coming as do most loud mouths (get the point yet) And no I was not a street punk then and I am not now,I was on the navy boxing team and continued after I got home (all amateur bouts)I think you are a weak person who has to attack the people to make yourself feel better about your own inadequacies. What's the matter ricky did you get a beat up a lot when you were a kid?
I don't really see what point you made. I do think the guy was a loser if he did something to a dog that involved lighter fluid. [PERIOD] I assumed he must have been drunk off his ass because he was talking about lighting a dog on fire in a public place. lets go back to what you said:
My great great grand father was the very first police chief in this town and my family was well known so I didn't get into to much trouble
Yeah, that does not imply that you ran behind your families name for protection. [rolleyes]
jrzy
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Posted: 11/26/2002 2:52:24 AM
Ricky I mentioned my family yes because I'm sure if they didn't know me or my family I would have been arrested for the assault without question,I didn't ask for any help it was offered ,should I have said "no, please arrest me"? I'm also sure that in most towns were a guy is known to be an OK guy breaks like the one I got are common,you don't think so?

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Rickyj
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Posted: 11/26/2002 3:11:06 AM
jrzy - there is no way that I could have guessed that you did not bring up your connections to get out of trouble. The way you added the statement at the end without further explanation makes it easy to see why someone would assume you did, no? If they let you off easier because they know [b]you[/b] are a good guy that is totally different and I don't have a problem with that. In any case we are way off topic, my only point/belief on this thread is that feeding a puppy to a snake is not animal cruelty. Unusual? Yes. Cruel? No.
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Posted: 11/26/2002 10:45:37 AM
[Last Edit: 11/26/2002 10:48:59 AM by steenkybastage]
Originally Posted By jrzy:
Originally Posted By Rickyj: In any case we are way off topic, my only point/belief on this thread is that feeding a puppy to a snake is not animal cruelty. Unusual? Yes. Cruel? No.
If you can't see the Cruelness in that act then you are flawed individual with fucked up perceptions and should seek counseling.
do we need to go around preventing snakes from eating anything live around the world now? Why isn't it cruel for a snake to do this to any animal in the wild, yet when someone feeds a rat or mouse to theirs, this is acceptable? How exactly is this different? Do you think "wild" animals are out there protesting the snake's cruelty? Do you think a dog is even self aware? (hint: no, they're not) If God wanted snakes to be vegetarians, and end the cruelty, I'm sure He would have "fixed" this cruel and unusual behavior by now. Yes, there are predators in the wild... Get over it. These puppies were on death row to begin with. If YOU dont want the hundreds of thousands of animals in places like this to be killed yearly, why don't you go adopt them all?
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Posted: 11/26/2002 10:48:31 AM
Originally Posted By Rickyj: In any case we are way off topic, my only point/belief on this thread is that feeding a puppy to a snake is not animal cruelty. Unusual? Yes. Cruel? No.
If you can't see the Cruelness in that act then you are a flawed individual with fucked up perceptions and should seek counseling.

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jrzy
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Posted: 11/26/2002 10:57:09 AM
steenkybastage It's a cruel act because it was done with malicious intent and the animal suffered,other wise why would she do it? You want to know if something like this is cruel? Would the average person do this in front of their 6 year old child,if not ,why not? Because it's a cruel act done by a low life POS.

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Torf
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Posted: 11/26/2002 11:23:54 AM
You can't argue with people who have been whipped up into an emotional fervor. Our dog Liesl died last night. I loved her. We are burying her this afternoon near the graves of other dogs I have loved, Cinder and Jubilee. I am still not going to go apeshit over some woman feeding puppies to a snake. After all, it is the 'pound', and they are in the business of killing animals.
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Posted: 11/26/2002 11:28:23 AM
Originally Posted By jrzy: steenkybastage It's a cruel act because it was done with malicious intent and the animal suffered,other wise why would she do it? You want to know if something like this is cruel? Would the average person do this in front of their 6 year old child,if not ,why not? Because it's a cruel act done by a low life POS.
well then... would the average person have sex in front of their 6 year old child? would the average person bring their child to watch it be spayed or neutered? would the aerage person bring their 6 year old child to WATCH THE PUPPIES DIE BY GAS? I see... all these things MUST be cruel and unusual. After all, a 6 year old can't handle them... Better make sure no 6 year olds have a pet snake... you'll traumatize them for life once they see the "cruel and unusual" feeding methods.
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Posted: 11/26/2002 11:30:44 AM
Originally Posted By jrzy:
Originally Posted By Rickyj: In any case we are way off topic, my only point/belief on this thread is that feeding a puppy to a snake is not animal cruelty. Unusual? Yes. Cruel? No.
If you can't see the Cruelness in that act then you are a flawed individual with fucked up perceptions and should seek counseling.
I'm a flawed individual and I have fu*ked up perceptions. I need to seek counseling...
I don't do balls or NASCAR.
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Posted: 11/26/2002 11:54:32 AM
steenkybastage You can twist this anyway you want ,There are plenty of things that are [b]not[/b] cruel that you would never do in front of a child. In this instance you would not because it is a cruel act. Torf "You can't argue with people who have been whipped up into an emotional fervor." That's right we are just emotional weaklings, Don't blame us for your lack of compassion for a defenseless puppy.

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Posted: 11/26/2002 12:16:53 PM
Steenky, you don't really seem to have much relevant information to add to this. Instead it just appears that you're trying to piss us off. If you want to bring GAME ANIMALS into this conversation, you're baiting the wrong guy. We're not talking about the ethics of domestic animals for meat, we're talking about rodents and dogs, thats it. Lets hear your arguments regarding those two animals. Lets talk about the relative intelligence between rats and dogs. Lets see your scientific data supporting your belief that rats are as smart as dogs. You'll be looking for a long time, because it doesn't exist. You also bring the "jungle" argument. Name some species of dogs IN JUNGLES. Not the Sarrengheti plains or forests or foothills, we're talkin jungles. Then give me specifics about the native dogs and the snakes in the foodchain. If a mongoose is a formidable threat to snakes, I believe a dog is a larger threat. In all my years, I only recall one area where dogs were threatened by snakes and it was a marshy area in south america (?) where pythons attacked the pet dogs. (The dogs were introduced to the area by residents.) Next time, why don't you post comments more relevant to the topic at hand, instead of the comments being more of a wiseass nature, maybe I'd address them more seriously. In the meantime, we're talking dogs and rodents for snake food. Ricky, if you think I wouldn't defend a dog from being fed to another animal, you're dead wrong. I believe we owe a lot to these animals who would freely lay down their life for their family. Jackass above seems to bring in Siamese cats, bla bla bla, but its not relevant to the conversation, since I never said I wouldn't defend cats from being fed to snakes either. I said earlier, I'd rather the dogs be put to death than feeding them live to the snake. If you want to call it morales, then its morales and I'll stand by that. If you owe nothing to your pets and their kind, so be it, but I DO. I would defend my animals to the death, as they would for me. In fact, I HAVE. You want to call that stupid, go ahead, but I wrestled with a rottie and a lab/pit mix that came after my dog while I was jogging one day. My shepard is a capable dog, but they started getting the best of him. I intervened at my risk and prevented my dog's further injury. If you think I'm an "internet toughguy" you're dead wrong. I'm not a hardass in person, but I'm no pussycat either. If you push me, expect to land on your ass hard, whether its a fight or whatnot. However, if it comes to which of us is the "internet toughguy", which of us started with the "Sound more like a regular street punk to me." I take offense to assholes making inflammatory remarks like that. You obviously didn't get the whole story, but it really sounds like you have a chip on your shoulder. You seem to take more offense with him getting away with it, than the animal abusing prick. Sounds like someone beat you up and you couldn't do dick about it. Don't project onto him. He did something courageous against a torturing POS. I'd hope that I could have done the same, but I wouldn't know unless I was in his shoes. When we're talking about a dog, I look at it not just a pet, but a family member. When I look at dogs without families, I see a dog that just hasn't been adopted yet, not food for snakes. So now, if you all seem to think of me as a Disney watching, feel good animal loving internet tough guy, I can live with that. In reality, we're talking about an incident that occured. If you were dangling a puppy above a snake cage, you would have to worry a great deal about me standing anywhere near you. In the meantime, any argument you make is nothing but lip service, because I don't think you could do it anyway.
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Posted: 11/26/2002 12:32:24 PM
Yon know Balzac I think most dogs are worth more then some people who posted on this thread. No need to mention who ,we all know who they are.

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Posted: 11/26/2002 12:57:57 PM
Originally Posted By jrzy: steenkybastage You can twist this anyway you want ,There are plenty of things that are [b]not[/b] cruel that you would never do in front of a child. In this instance you would not because it is a cruel act. Torf "You can't argue with people who have been whipped up into an emotional fervor." That's right we are just emotional weaklings, Don't blame us for your lack of compassion for a defenseless puppy.
I hate the very idea of animals brought to these so-called shelters. Imagine a homeless shelter where homeless people had a week to be claimed by a loved one before they are put to death. Imagine a fucking orphanage where children are gassed and incinerated if parents never claim them. Imagine a women's shelter where people 'care' about their plight, but inject the drugs on the seventh day. Here is your lack of compassion... I want all these animals to be set free. There is no reason to put them to death by any means, snake or car exhaust. You get yourself all worked up about snake snacks, but could absolutely care less about Animal Nazi's and their Death Kennels. I have adopted many animals from these places, but how the fuck could you know that? You are just a blowhard with a goddammed keyboard. Don't lecture me about compassion. You never even offered to adopt them. I would have. I've got the room.
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Posted: 11/26/2002 1:35:55 PM
Balzac, I know you don't want to talk about other animals because it ruins your argument, so I will only compare rats with dogs, and fight with one hand behind my back. Both are domesticated. They have comparable gestation periods(although this is a total red herring) They both can be trained to do complex chores, although the dog I would have to argue has more intelligence. The Rats breed more often, although I am trying to figure out what relevance this has. I would also say the dog would defend you much better than a rat. I see where you missed at least one important item of debate. Which animal maims and kills more children in this country every year?
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Posted: 11/26/2002 1:36:05 PM
Steenky, you don't really seem to have much relevant information to add to this. Instead it just appears that you're trying to piss us off.
funny, cause all I did is address points you made (that were debatable). People who are irrational tend to get pissed off when you point out their pile of steaming...
Lets see your scientific data supporting your belief that rats are as smart as dogs.
Lets see your scientific data suggesting intelligence has ANYTHING to do with cruelty and/or suffering... THEN I'll listen. Your whole basis is off the fact that you LIKE dogs more and THINK they're so smart cause they gestate soooo long compared to a mouse (but yet the same length as a hamster or gerbil), and of course that translates to raw intelligence, which in turn somehow means intelligent animals suffer more. Dogs are no different then any other animal that isn't self aware. Sure, we all like them more, but they're still animals... and they're still no big deal.
If a mongoose is a formidable threat to snakes, I believe a dog is a larger threat.
Right, since a mongoose can ingest the venom of a snake and not be harmed, it's got to be the same for a dog. Sorry, watch what a mongoose does, it is faster then a cobra, and wears the snake out by dodging it, then kills and ingests the snake, venom and all. Not many dogs I know of that are that fast. But of course, if you want to feed snake venom to your dog... go right ahead.
Next time, why don't you post comments more relevant to the topic at hand, instead of the comments being more of a wiseass nature, maybe I'd address them more seriously.
Of course... you can introduce all the BS you want, but when someone calls you on it, and replies to your statements, it's not relevant. And I don't blame you for not addressing them more seriously... cause feelings aren't an effective way of debating, look at the democrats. Perhaps you'd feel better if they let every dog slated to be killed loose in the wild and give it a chance to die a slow death by starvation or be taken out by a predator (but that's not cruel, if we didn't witness it).
You also bring the "jungle" argument. Name some species of dogs IN JUNGLES. Not the Sarrengheti plains or forests or foothills, we're talkin jungles. Then give me specifics about the native dogs and the snakes in the foodchain.
What's relevant about whether you find a dog in a jungle or not? It was your point, and I took it to mean in the wild... After all, you dont ONLY find snakes in "the jungle", it's not like they never co-exist in nature. and yes, wild dogs do live in the areas on the outskirts of the jungle... heaven forbid one of them take a step into the jungle tho... they'd die from sheer terror, right? and in case you still seem to think I am bringing up jungles:
RickyJ, why don't you just fuck off. What happens in the jungle? The mother dog bites the fuckin head off of the snake, that's what happens. Oh wait...dogs aren't in the jungle.
You simply feel strongly about dogs. Animals that are roughly the intellectual equals of pigs... Your argument is based on how intelligent they are, not on whether it's cruel or not for them to be killed. Let me ask, would einstein have suffered more being eaten by a wild animal then you? Self awareness brings the fear of death (not the same thing as survival instinct). Those puppies mentally were probably less intelligent (because of age) then a full grown mouse. I'm sure you'll now be glad to know that they didn't suffer as much as an adult rat, since they were too young to be intelligent. Do you still think intelligence has anything to do with suffering? If you do... you should be out protesting the slaughtering of pigs. And if you still think that, and that gestation periods are directly related to intelligence, you should be out protesting pigs, horses, whales, goats, sheep, etc... being killed, because they ALL gestate longer then dogs.
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Posted: 11/26/2002 1:55:33 PM
SteyrAUG, I never said that I would feed puppies to the snake, unfortunately for me, I have no reason that is not emotionally based however. I have had big snakes including a Reticulated python, Burmese python, and a large Boa. I fed them rabbits. I would have fed them rabbits even if I had free puppies to give them. I can find no logical reason for this. The dog has no more right to live than a rabbit or a rat. If you say it does, then you have to compare all animals on the criteria that you compared these two on. If you based their value on intelligence then crows would be more important than Bald Eagles. The truth is I, like you and Balzac, and just about every other person around(and thus the firing of this worker) has a connection to dogs that we don't have to other animals and this is what makes them more valuable to us, not logic.
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Posted: 11/26/2002 2:19:32 PM
Originally Posted By AR15: SteyrAUG, I never said that I would feed puppies to the snake, unfortunately for me, I have no reason that is not emotionally based however. I have had big snakes including a Reticulated python, Burmese python, and a large Boa. I fed them rabbits. I would have fed them rabbits even if I had free puppies to give them. I can find no logical reason for this. The dog has no more right to live than a rabbit or a rat. If you say it does, then you have to compare all animals on the criteria that you compared these two on. If you based their value on intelligence then crows would be more important than Bald Eagles. The truth is I, like you and Balzac, and just about every other person around(and thus the firing of this worker) has a connection to dogs that we don't have to other animals and this is what makes them more valuable to us, not logic.
Right and wrong are not always based upon logic or even what is legal or illegal. In Korea they EAT dogs. It is LEGAL and some would argue practical or logical. I happen to feel it is wrong. The Hindus feel the same way about me when I eat steak. Most dogs by their nature and domestication have earned a higher order than most other animals in relation to man. it is no accident they are called "Mans Best Friend." As a result only a ghoul could harm one deliberately. And this is one of those thing "most" people know by first grade. People that reach adulthood without learning these things usually are lacking in many other areas as well.
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Posted: 11/26/2002 2:50:58 PM
Skin the friggin snake. Cook up the meat. Feed the dogs. Make boots out of the snakeskin.
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Posted: 11/26/2002 2:56:53 PM
SteyrAUG, distasteful and offensive do not equate to wrong. The idea that it does grates against every libertarian fibre in me. If it does, then all of us here at AR15.com are wrong because the majority of the rest of the world would undoubtably find us in the former light.
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