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Posted: 9/3/2013 11:14:36 AM EDT

A question for the pro electricians:

I know you absolutely need a cutout switch, or whatever it's called that disconnects the home wiring from the service, and connects the generator to the home wiring.  For SMALL loads, could you just connect the generator cable to a 220v double breaker and stick it in your breaker box?  Main switch to the box would be OFF.  This would be for a small 4000 or so watt gas generator.

Process:

Main disconnect OFF
Generator 220 plug connected to 20 feet of home wiring wire.  (14 or 12g?)
Wires connected to a double breaker.
Breaker installed on the blades of the breaker box.
All breakers turned off.
Generator started.
Various breakers switched on as needed.
Don't overload!

Would this run both 220 and 115 appliances?  Why problems would there be?  It would run a few room lights in a blackout, as well as a single water heater, right?  Then switch off the water heater breaker and run the freezer a while, or central gas heater, etc?
Link Posted: 9/3/2013 11:16:35 AM EDT
[#1]
The term you are speaking of is called "Backfeeding".

Yes it can be done...but it can be dangerous.
Link Posted: 9/3/2013 11:25:26 AM EDT
[#2]
There are safe and code compliant ways to backfeed your entire panel as you describe. Several important things:

1. You need to make sure your MAIN is open (i.e., shut off) and it needs to be mechanically locked out while the generator is operating. The preferred and code compliant way to do this is with an interlock plate on the panel that prevents both the main and the backfed breakers from both being closed at the same time.
2. You need to make sure that ALL of the wiring, including the wire inside your house, that you're using to feed from the generator to the panel, is up to the task.
3. You can make and use a double male "suicide cord" to backfeed an existing female socket, but you better not forget the order of operations. Pretty sure that's against code as well, but it's your call. The preferred way to do that is to install a dedicated male inlet and breaker on the panel for backfeeding, with the lockout plate described above.

If you're feeding properly phased 240v from a 240v socket on the generator, into a properly wired 240 breaker in the panel, then yes, it should feed both 120 legs and any 240 loads within the capacity of the generator.
Link Posted: 9/3/2013 11:38:25 AM EDT
[#3]

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Quoted:


The term you are speaking of is called "Backfeeding".



Yes it can be done...but it can be dangerous.
View Quote




 
This.  Make a suicide cord.  Pros don't like those either.
Link Posted: 9/3/2013 6:01:41 PM EDT
[#4]
With a 4,000 watt generator you can't run the whole house anyway.  Invest in heavy duty extension cords to run the fridge, some lights, and maybe a fan or two and call it good.  Winter, maybe put a 1500 watt heater in one room and go into camping mode.

Paladin
Link Posted: 9/3/2013 6:07:34 PM EDT
[#5]
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Quoted:
With a 4,000 watt generator you can't run the whole house anyway.  Invest in heavy duty extension cords to run the fridge, some lights, and maybe a fan or two and call it good.  Winter, maybe put a 1500 watt heater in one room and go into camping mode.

Paladin
View Quote


Heating with a generator is DUMB.

Get some propane heaters that don't generate CO.  Then, get some CO detectors to make sure.

Link Posted: 9/3/2013 6:10:44 PM EDT
[#6]
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Quoted:


Heating with a generator is DUMB.

Get some propane heaters that don't generate CO.  Then, get some CO detectors to make sure.

View Quote View All Quotes
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Quoted:
Quoted:
With a 4,000 watt generator you can't run the whole house anyway.  Invest in heavy duty extension cords to run the fridge, some lights, and maybe a fan or two and call it good.  Winter, maybe put a 1500 watt heater in one room and go into camping mode.

Paladin


Heating with a generator is DUMB.

Get some propane heaters that don't generate CO.  Then, get some CO detectors to make sure.



It looks like he's talking all electric inside, with the generator running outside.
Link Posted: 9/3/2013 6:14:17 PM EDT
[#7]
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Quoted:


It looks like he's talking all electric inside, with the generator running outside.
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
With a 4,000 watt generator you can't run the whole house anyway.  Invest in heavy duty extension cords to run the fridge, some lights, and maybe a fan or two and call it good.  Winter, maybe put a 1500 watt heater in one room and go into camping mode.

Paladin


Heating with a generator is DUMB.

Get some propane heaters that don't generate CO.  Then, get some CO detectors to make sure.



It looks like he's talking all electric inside, with the generator running outside.


what about efficiency?

conversion of gasoline <fuel> to electricity to create heat
vs
conversion of propane to heat

Link Posted: 9/3/2013 6:15:32 PM EDT
[#8]
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Quoted:


It looks like he's talking all electric inside, with the generator running outside.
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
With a 4,000 watt generator you can't run the whole house anyway.  Invest in heavy duty extension cords to run the fridge, some lights, and maybe a fan or two and call it good.  Winter, maybe put a 1500 watt heater in one room and go into camping mode.

Paladin


Heating with a generator is DUMB.

Get some propane heaters that don't generate CO.  Then, get some CO detectors to make sure.



It looks like he's talking all electric inside, with the generator running outside.


Not with 4kw he's not.

Heating is a WASTE using a generator.  You are burning gas to generate electricity, then using the electricity to create heat.

That is...so damn inefficient.


Link Posted: 9/3/2013 6:19:29 PM EDT
[#9]
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Quoted:


It looks like he's talking all electric inside, with the generator running outside.
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
With a 4,000 watt generator you can't run the whole house anyway.  Invest in heavy duty extension cords to run the fridge, some lights, and maybe a fan or two and call it good.  Winter, maybe put a 1500 watt heater in one room and go into camping mode.

Paladin


Heating with a generator is DUMB.

Get some propane heaters that don't generate CO.  Then, get some CO detectors to make sure.



It looks like he's talking all electric inside, with the generator running outside.


Yep, but it's terribly inefficient.
Link Posted: 9/3/2013 6:29:06 PM EDT
[#10]
if your gonna do this please do it right don't put the guys on the line that work shitty hours in the worst conditions in danger because your lazy or cheap. this psa brought to you by a broke ass white boy
Link Posted: 9/3/2013 6:44:17 PM EDT
[#11]
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Quoted:
With a 4,000 watt generator you can't run the whole house anyway.  Invest in heavy duty extension cords to run the fridge, some lights, and maybe a fan or two and call it good.  Winter, maybe put a 1500 watt heater in one room and go into camping mode.

Paladin
View Quote


I run almost my entire home on one 5Kw construction-grade generator and the meters never go above 50% on either phase, but I have two advantages:

1) All natural gas water heater - standing pilot requires zero electricity, ever.

2) Gas furnace - only requires electricity to drive the fan, and heats the whole house for less electricity than a single room electric heater would use.

The biggest hitters are the fridge and upright freezer, and I can run them at the same time easily.


We usually lose power for several days a year. I get about 11 hours of run time on each 5 gallon tank of gas. We live very comfortably on less than 4Kw for extended periods.
Link Posted: 9/3/2013 6:47:09 PM EDT
[#12]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


I run almost my entire home on one 5Kw construction-grade generator and the meters never go above 50% on either phase, but I have two advantages:

1) All natural gas water heater - standing pilot requires zero electricity, ever.

2) Gas furnace - only requires electricity to drive the fan, and heats the whole house for less electricity than a single room electric heater would use.

The biggest hitters are the fridge and upright freezer, and I can run them at the same time easily.


We usually lose power for several days a year. I get about 11 hours of run time on each 5 gallon tank of gas. We live very comfortably on less than 4Kw for extended periods.
View Quote View All Quotes
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Quoted:
Quoted:
With a 4,000 watt generator you can't run the whole house anyway.  Invest in heavy duty extension cords to run the fridge, some lights, and maybe a fan or two and call it good.  Winter, maybe put a 1500 watt heater in one room and go into camping mode.

Paladin


I run almost my entire home on one 5Kw construction-grade generator and the meters never go above 50% on either phase, but I have two advantages:

1) All natural gas water heater - standing pilot requires zero electricity, ever.

2) Gas furnace - only requires electricity to drive the fan, and heats the whole house for less electricity than a single room electric heater would use.

The biggest hitters are the fridge and upright freezer, and I can run them at the same time easily.


We usually lose power for several days a year. I get about 11 hours of run time on each 5 gallon tank of gas. We live very comfortably on less than 4Kw for extended periods.


Central Air?

You're not pulling any big heating loads, so 5kw could do it.


Link Posted: 9/3/2013 6:49:54 PM EDT
[#13]

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Quoted:


if your gonna do this please do it right don't put the guys on the line that work shitty hours in the worst conditions in danger because your lazy or cheap. this psa brought to you by a broke ass white boy
View Quote




 



Backfeeding a genny to your house is not going to put a lineman in danger.  
Link Posted: 9/3/2013 6:51:56 PM EDT
[#14]
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Quoted:

 

Backfeeding a genny to your house is not going to put a lineman in danger.  
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Quoted:
Quoted:
if your gonna do this please do it right don't put the guys on the line that work shitty hours in the worst conditions in danger because your lazy or cheap. this psa brought to you by a broke ass white boy

 

Backfeeding a genny to your house is not going to put a lineman in danger.  


Unless you leave the main breaker on.

Link Posted: 9/3/2013 6:52:31 PM EDT
[#15]
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Quoted:


Central Air?

You're not pulling any big heating loads, so 5kw could do it.

View Quote View All Quotes
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
With a 4,000 watt generator you can't run the whole house anyway.  Invest in heavy duty extension cords to run the fridge, some lights, and maybe a fan or two and call it good.  Winter, maybe put a 1500 watt heater in one room and go into camping mode.

Paladin


I run almost my entire home on one 5Kw construction-grade generator and the meters never go above 50% on either phase, but I have two advantages:

1) All natural gas water heater - standing pilot requires zero electricity, ever.

2) Gas furnace - only requires electricity to drive the fan, and heats the whole house for less electricity than a single room electric heater would use.

The biggest hitters are the fridge and upright freezer, and I can run them at the same time easily.


We usually lose power for several days a year. I get about 11 hours of run time on each 5 gallon tank of gas. We live very comfortably on less than 4Kw for extended periods.


Central Air?

You're not pulling any big heating loads, so 5kw could do it.



I have central air, but the power doesn't usually go out here during the summer. It's a fall and winter thing due to wind and ice storms.

I know that I can't run a three ton compressor from the generator, but I don't need to.
Link Posted: 9/3/2013 6:53:18 PM EDT
[#16]
I work for the power company and do storm restoration. I backfeed my house. If you know what you're doing it can be done safely. Just make a check list to start and stop the whole process.
Link Posted: 9/3/2013 6:54:33 PM EDT
[#17]
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Quoted:


I have central air, but the power doesn't usually go out here during the summer. It's a fall and winter thing due to wind and ice storms.

I know that I can't run a three ton compressor from the generator, but I don't need to.
View Quote View All Quotes
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
With a 4,000 watt generator you can't run the whole house anyway.  Invest in heavy duty extension cords to run the fridge, some lights, and maybe a fan or two and call it good.  Winter, maybe put a 1500 watt heater in one room and go into camping mode.

Paladin


I run almost my entire home on one 5Kw construction-grade generator and the meters never go above 50% on either phase, but I have two advantages:

1) All natural gas water heater - standing pilot requires zero electricity, ever.

2) Gas furnace - only requires electricity to drive the fan, and heats the whole house for less electricity than a single room electric heater would use.

The biggest hitters are the fridge and upright freezer, and I can run them at the same time easily.


We usually lose power for several days a year. I get about 11 hours of run time on each 5 gallon tank of gas. We live very comfortably on less than 4Kw for extended periods.


Central Air?

You're not pulling any big heating loads, so 5kw could do it.



I have central air, but the power doesn't usually go out here during the summer. It's a fall and winter thing due to wind and ice storms.

I know that I can't run a three ton compressor from the generator, but I don't need to.


I use a couple of window units when the power goes out.  As long as a couple of bedrooms are cool, we're good.

Link Posted: 9/3/2013 6:57:50 PM EDT
[#18]
Below is a better way to achieve more or less the same thing, energizing just a few circuits.  Energizing my furnace circuit, including circulating pumps, takes like 100 watts and heats the whole house, compared to a single 1500 watt electric that might do one room and take the entire capacity of my little Honda.


http://www.generator-switch.com/
Link Posted: 9/3/2013 6:58:20 PM EDT
[#19]

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Quoted:
Unless you leave the main breaker on.



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Quoted:


Quoted:

if your gonna do this please do it right don't put the guys on the line that work shitty hours in the worst conditions in danger because your lazy or cheap. this psa brought to you by a broke ass white boy


 



Backfeeding a genny to your house is not going to put a lineman in danger.  





Unless you leave the main breaker on.





Essentially, what you seem to be saying is that backfeeding should only be done by people of average or better intelligence.



 
Link Posted: 9/3/2013 7:01:00 PM EDT
[#20]
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Quoted:
I work for the power company and do storm restoration. I backfeed my house. If you know what you're doing it can be done safely. Just make a check list to start and stop the whole process.
View Quote

http://www.oshrc.gov/decisions/html_2007/06-0166.htm

ps:
checklists are only good if you are alert/rested/can read in the dark/etc.  late last fall my wife and i had no power for 12 days.  i was surprised at a bunch of things in terms of how easy they were to do on a nice sunny day and then how difficult they were after spending the day pumping out the basement at your parent's house.

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_10_17/661411_Sandy____12_days_without_power__what_worked__what_didn_t____.html

ar-jedi
Link Posted: 9/3/2013 7:03:34 PM EDT
[#21]
Don't suicide chord, buy a male receptical outlet.  $50 on amazon

For code here you have to have some sort of positive lock that prevets the main and generator feed from being hit at the same time. I've seen some simple sheet metal devices for this.

As for heating with your genny... Just plumb the exhaust inside
Link Posted: 9/3/2013 7:03:45 PM EDT
[#22]
Or get a 3pdt switch and wire it in before the breaker panel.  Switch center to breakers and main to one side and genny to the other.  cannot be connected to both at the same time.
Link Posted: 9/3/2013 7:03:52 PM EDT
[#23]
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Quoted:

Backfeeding a genny to your house is not going to put a lineman in danger.  
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Quoted:
Quoted:
if your gonna do this please do it right don't put the guys on the line that work shitty hours in the worst conditions in danger because your lazy or cheap. this psa brought to you by a broke ass white boy

Backfeeding a genny to your house is not going to put a lineman in danger.  

errrrr.... you were saying?

http://www.oshrc.gov/decisions/html_2007/06-0166.htm

Facts

             In July 2005, Pike sent a crew to Flomaton, Alabama, after the Gulf Coast area had been damaged by a hurricane. Alabama Power Company contracted Pike to assist with repairing downed power lines and broken poles. Pike’s crew comprised six workers supervised by foreman and lineman Richard Green. The crew traveled to Flomaton on July 11 and spent the night. At 7:00 a.m. on July 12, Green and Pike linemen Ronnie Adams and Robert Mitchell met with employees from Alabama Power Company to discuss the repair work (Tr. 23-25). Green and Adams were Class A lineman. Mitchell was a Class C lineman (at the time of the hearing, he was a Class B lineman) (Tr. 56-58).

           An Alabama Power Company representative warned Pike’s employees to be on the lookout for portable generators. Homeowners often use portable generators as a temporary energy source when storms knock out power lines. If the homeowner hooks up the generator directly to the house’s circuit (rather than using it to power a single appliance), energy from the generator could “backfeed” from the house and re-energize the power lines (Tr. 26-27).

           After meeting with Alabama Power Company, Green held a meeting with the six Pike employees. He explained the work to be done and divided the men into two crews: Mitchell worked with Ryan Chamberlain and Curtis Montgomery, and Adams worked with groundman Matthew Snow and equipment operator Todd Casey (Tr. 39, 66). Green assigned Adams’s crew to replace a damaged pole and to re-hang the four lines on a three-phase tap line on Jackson Street (Tr. 37-39). Green worked with Adams’s crew until they started setting the new pole, around noon. Then Green left to work with Mitchell’s crew (Tr. 72-73).

           Pike was treating the power lines as de-energized because Alabama Power Company had opened the switches inside the substation (which prevented the circuit from being completed and energizing the lines). At the pole directly outside the substation designated as Y5307 on Wilkerson Street, Pike opened the set of switches on the pole, flagged, tagged, and grounded them. Pike also removed the jumpers to the phases from the switches at pole Y5307 (Exh. C-5). Green testified Pike did this despite the open switches in the substation just a few feet away “as an extra layer of protection” (Tr. 32). Also, Pike opened the set of switches and flagged, tagged, and grounded them at a pole designated as Y7929 on Ringold Street (Tr. 30-32). When operating normally, the three-phase line is energized at 7,220 volts, phase to ground (Exh. J-1; Tr. 27).

           The two poles (Y5307 and Y7929) were on the same power distribution line. Between these two poles, a tap power line ran down Jackson Street and terminated at a dead-end pole. The transformer located on the dead-end pole was not opened, tagged, flagged and grounded.

           After Green left, Adams went up in an insulated lift to repair the damaged lines. Three of the lines (the neutral, the road phase, and the field phase) were broken. The fourth line (the central line) was sagging but intact (Tr. 61). Although Adams could have repaired the sagging central line without splicing it, he chose to cut the line. The line on which Adam was working was connected by a secondary line to a house at the end of Jackson Street (referred to at the hearing as “a doctor’s house”). The homeowner had connected a portable generator to the house’s circuitry which caused electrical energy to backfeed to the line Adams was splicing, energizing it. Adams was electrocuted when he cut the line (Tr. 40, 95, 222, 269). The company has no written work rule requiring employees working on de-energized lines to wear protective rubber gloves (Tr. 40, 44). Adams was wearing leather work gloves, but not rubber gloves that day.  

           Compliance officer Dale Schneider arrived at the site the day after Adams’s death, on July 13, 2005. Following Schneider’s investigation of the circumstances surrounding the fatality, the Secretary issued the citations that gave rise to this proceeding on January 6, 2006.





ar-jedi
Link Posted: 9/3/2013 7:04:20 PM EDT
[#24]
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Quoted:

Essentially, what you seem to be saying is that backfeeding should only be done by people of average or better intelligence.
 
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
if your gonna do this please do it right don't put the guys on the line that work shitty hours in the worst conditions in danger because your lazy or cheap. this psa brought to you by a broke ass white boy

 

Backfeeding a genny to your house is not going to put a lineman in danger.  


Unless you leave the main breaker on.


Essentially, what you seem to be saying is that backfeeding should only be done by people of average or better intelligence.
 


Probably, because there is the matter of the suicide cord too, and the whole operation may not always be done in the best conditions (i.e. you're tired, it's dark, etc.)  It's not rocket science, but that doesn't mean it can't be screwed up pretty easily.
Link Posted: 9/3/2013 7:05:16 PM EDT
[#25]

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Quoted:
Unless you leave the main breaker on.



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Quoted:



Quoted:


Quoted:

if your gonna do this please do it right don't put the guys on the line that work shitty hours in the worst conditions in danger because your lazy or cheap. this psa brought to you by a broke ass white boy


 



Backfeeding a genny to your house is not going to put a lineman in danger.  





Unless you leave the main breaker on.



 If your generator will run with the main backfeeding they whole world, I bet that the Power company already knows to call ahead.  Probably to see if they can have help from you.  



 



Most folks backup generator is not measured in Megawatts, so the idea of them backfeeding the entire grid from a 12hp Briggs is laughable.  
Link Posted: 9/3/2013 7:05:41 PM EDT
[#26]
Buy a damn transfer switch and do it right.



And don't run electric heat.
Link Posted: 9/3/2013 7:10:04 PM EDT
[#27]
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Quoted:
There are safe and code compliant ways to backfeed your entire panel as you describe.
View Quote


1) transfer switch:



2) interlock plate:






ar-jedi

ps:
inlet is as follows:




Link Posted: 9/3/2013 7:15:13 PM EDT
[#28]
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Quoted:
 If your generator will run with the main backfeeding they whole world, I bet that the Power company already knows to call ahead.  Probably to see if they can have help from you.  
 

Most folks backup generator is not measured in Megawatts, so the idea of them backfeeding the entire grid from a 12hp Briggs is laughable.  
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
if your gonna do this please do it right don't put the guys on the line that work shitty hours in the worst conditions in danger because your lazy or cheap. this psa brought to you by a broke ass white boy

 

Backfeeding a genny to your house is not going to put a lineman in danger.  


Unless you leave the main breaker on.

 If your generator will run with the main backfeeding they whole world, I bet that the Power company already knows to call ahead.  Probably to see if they can have help from you.  
 

Most folks backup generator is not measured in Megawatts, so the idea of them backfeeding the entire grid from a 12hp Briggs is laughable.  


Did you miss the post above yours about the lineman killed by a backfeeding generator or just fail to comprehend it?

ETA: Looks like you just missed it, I see you read it.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
Link Posted: 9/3/2013 7:16:20 PM EDT
[#29]
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Quoted:

errrrr.... you were saying?

http://www.oshrc.gov/decisions/html_2007/06-0166.htm




ar-jedi
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
if your gonna do this please do it right don't put the guys on the line that work shitty hours in the worst conditions in danger because your lazy or cheap. this psa brought to you by a broke ass white boy

Backfeeding a genny to your house is not going to put a lineman in danger.  

errrrr.... you were saying?

http://www.oshrc.gov/decisions/html_2007/06-0166.htm

Facts

             In July 2005, Pike sent a crew to Flomaton, Alabama, after the Gulf Coast area had been damaged by a hurricane. Alabama Power Company contracted Pike to assist with repairing downed power lines and broken poles. Pike’s crew comprised six workers supervised by foreman and lineman Richard Green. The crew traveled to Flomaton on July 11 and spent the night. At 7:00 a.m. on July 12, Green and Pike linemen Ronnie Adams and Robert Mitchell met with employees from Alabama Power Company to discuss the repair work (Tr. 23-25). Green and Adams were Class A lineman. Mitchell was a Class C lineman (at the time of the hearing, he was a Class B lineman) (Tr. 56-58).

           An Alabama Power Company representative warned Pike’s employees to be on the lookout for portable generators. Homeowners often use portable generators as a temporary energy source when storms knock out power lines. If the homeowner hooks up the generator directly to the house’s circuit (rather than using it to power a single appliance), energy from the generator could “backfeed” from the house and re-energize the power lines (Tr. 26-27).

           After meeting with Alabama Power Company, Green held a meeting with the six Pike employees. He explained the work to be done and divided the men into two crews: Mitchell worked with Ryan Chamberlain and Curtis Montgomery, and Adams worked with groundman Matthew Snow and equipment operator Todd Casey (Tr. 39, 66). Green assigned Adams’s crew to replace a damaged pole and to re-hang the four lines on a three-phase tap line on Jackson Street (Tr. 37-39). Green worked with Adams’s crew until they started setting the new pole, around noon. Then Green left to work with Mitchell’s crew (Tr. 72-73).

           Pike was treating the power lines as de-energized because Alabama Power Company had opened the switches inside the substation (which prevented the circuit from being completed and energizing the lines). At the pole directly outside the substation designated as Y5307 on Wilkerson Street, Pike opened the set of switches on the pole, flagged, tagged, and grounded them. Pike also removed the jumpers to the phases from the switches at pole Y5307 (Exh. C-5). Green testified Pike did this despite the open switches in the substation just a few feet away “as an extra layer of protection” (Tr. 32). Also, Pike opened the set of switches and flagged, tagged, and grounded them at a pole designated as Y7929 on Ringold Street (Tr. 30-32). When operating normally, the three-phase line is energized at 7,220 volts, phase to ground (Exh. J-1; Tr. 27).

           The two poles (Y5307 and Y7929) were on the same power distribution line. Between these two poles, a tap power line ran down Jackson Street and terminated at a dead-end pole. The transformer located on the dead-end pole was not opened, tagged, flagged and grounded.

           After Green left, Adams went up in an insulated lift to repair the damaged lines. Three of the lines (the neutral, the road phase, and the field phase) were broken. The fourth line (the central line) was sagging but intact (Tr. 61). Although Adams could have repaired the sagging central line without splicing it, he chose to cut the line. The line on which Adam was working was connected by a secondary line to a house at the end of Jackson Street (referred to at the hearing as “a doctor’s house”). The homeowner had connected a portable generator to the house’s circuitry which caused electrical energy to backfeed to the line Adams was splicing, energizing it. Adams was electrocuted when he cut the line (Tr. 40, 95, 222, 269). The company has no written work rule requiring employees working on de-energized lines to wear protective rubber gloves (Tr. 40, 44). Adams was wearing leather work gloves, but not rubber gloves that day.  

           Compliance officer Dale Schneider arrived at the site the day after Adams’s death, on July 13, 2005. Following Schneider’s investigation of the circumstances surrounding the fatality, the Secretary issued the citations that gave rise to this proceeding on January 6, 2006.





ar-jedi

There were a lot of mistakes made by that guy. You always test the lines first. We are required to wear our rubbers for all storm work unless you have a visual open.
Link Posted: 9/3/2013 7:17:44 PM EDT
[#30]

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Quoted:





errrrr.... you were saying?



http://www.oshrc.gov/decisions/html_2007/06-0166.htm
ar-jedi

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Quoted:



Quoted:


Quoted:

if your gonna do this please do it right don't put the guys on the line that work shitty hours in the worst conditions in danger because your lazy or cheap. this psa brought to you by a broke ass white boy


Backfeeding a genny to your house is not going to put a lineman in danger.  



errrrr.... you were saying?



http://www.oshrc.gov/decisions/html_2007/06-0166.htm




Facts



             In July 2005, Pike sent a crew to Flomaton, Alabama, after the Gulf Coast area had been damaged by a hurricane. Alabama Power Company contracted Pike to assist with repairing downed power lines and broken poles. Pike’s crew comprised six workers supervised by foreman and lineman Richard Green. The crew traveled to Flomaton on July 11 and spent the night. At 7:00 a.m. on July 12, Green and Pike linemen Ronnie Adams and Robert Mitchell met with employees from Alabama Power Company to discuss the repair work (Tr. 23-25). Green and Adams were Class A lineman. Mitchell was a Class C lineman (at the time of the hearing, he was a Class B lineman) (Tr. 56-58).



           An Alabama Power Company representative warned Pike’s employees to be on the lookout for portable generators. Homeowners often use portable generators as a temporary energy source when storms knock out power lines. If the homeowner hooks up the generator directly to the house’s circuit (rather than using it to power a single appliance), energy from the generator could "backfeed” from the house and re-energize the power lines (Tr. 26-27).



           After meeting with Alabama Power Company, Green held a meeting with the six Pike employees. He explained the work to be done and divided the men into two crews: Mitchell worked with Ryan Chamberlain and Curtis Montgomery, and Adams worked with groundman Matthew Snow and equipment operator Todd Casey (Tr. 39, 66). Green assigned Adams’s crew to replace a damaged pole and to re-hang the four lines on a three-phase tap line on Jackson Street (Tr. 37-39). Green worked with Adams’s crew until they started setting the new pole, around noon. Then Green left to work with Mitchell’s crew (Tr. 72-73).



           Pike was treating the power lines as de-energized because Alabama Power Company had opened the switches inside the substation (which prevented the circuit from being completed and energizing the lines). At the pole directly outside the substation designated as Y5307 on Wilkerson Street, Pike opened the set of switches on the pole, flagged, tagged, and grounded them. Pike also removed the jumpers to the phases from the switches at pole Y5307 (Exh. C-5). Green testified Pike did this despite the open switches in the substation just a few feet away "as an extra layer of protection” (Tr. 32). Also, Pike opened the set of switches and flagged, tagged, and grounded them at a pole designated as Y7929 on Ringold Street (Tr. 30-32). When operating normally, the three-phase line is energized at 7,220 volts, phase to ground (Exh. J-1; Tr. 27).



           The two poles (Y5307 and Y7929) were on the same power distribution line. Between these two poles, a tap power line ran down Jackson Street and terminated at a dead-end pole. The transformer located on the dead-end pole was not opened, tagged, flagged and grounded.



           After Green left, Adams went up in an insulated lift to repair the damaged lines. Three of the lines (the neutral, the road phase, and the field phase) were broken. The fourth line (the central line) was sagging but intact (Tr. 61). Although Adams could have repaired the sagging central line without splicing it, he chose to cut the line. The line on which Adam was working was connected by a secondary line to a house at the end of Jackson Street (referred to at the hearing as "a doctor’s house”). The homeowner had connected a portable generator to the house’s circuitry which caused electrical energy to backfeed to the line Adams was splicing, energizing it. Adams was electrocuted when he cut the line (Tr. 40, 95, 222, 269). The company has no written work rule requiring employees working on de-energized lines to wear protective rubber gloves (Tr. 40, 44). Adams was wearing leather work gloves, but not rubber gloves that day.  



           Compliance officer Dale Schneider arrived at the site the day after Adams’s death, on July 13, 2005. Following Schneider’s investigation of the circumstances surrounding the fatality, the Secretary issued the citations that gave rise to this proceeding on January 6, 2006.




ar-jedi

Well,  I'll be damned.  

 



Poor bastard.  




He is the first one who I can actually say that has been harmed by backfeeding a line.  After reading that case, he is also apparently the only one whose lawyers could find as well, and it looks as though he was working at the "end of the driveway", so to speak.  





If there is a line crew fixing the feed to your house, and your are backfeeding, you could potentially be placing them in danger.  




Realistically, your genny won't run if your main is "on".  
Link Posted: 9/3/2013 7:19:13 PM EDT
[#31]

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Quoted:



Quoted:

There are safe and code compliant ways to backfeed your entire panel as you describe.




1) transfer switch:



http://wopr.losdos.dyndns.org/gallery2/d/24461-1/DSCN6288.JPG



2) interlock plate:



http://wopr.losdos.dyndns.org/gallery2/d/43038-2/CameraRoll+459.jpg



http://wopr.losdos.dyndns.org/gallery2/d/47968-2/2.jpg





ar-jedi



ps:

inlet is as follows:



http://wopr.losdos.dyndns.org/gallery2/d/47969-2/3.jpg





That is a pretty sexy set up.  

 
Link Posted: 9/3/2013 7:20:25 PM EDT
[#32]
65 milli amps can kill you.
Link Posted: 9/3/2013 7:32:44 PM EDT
[#33]
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Quoted:
That is a pretty sexy set up.    
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
There are safe and code compliant ways to backfeed your entire panel as you describe.


1) transfer switch:

http://wopr.losdos.dyndns.org/gallery2/d/24461-1/DSCN6288.JPG

2) interlock plate:

http://wopr.losdos.dyndns.org/gallery2/d/43038-2/CameraRoll+459.jpg

http://wopr.losdos.dyndns.org/gallery2/d/47968-2/2.jpg


ar-jedi

ps:
inlet is as follows:

http://wopr.losdos.dyndns.org/gallery2/d/47969-2/3.jpg


That is a pretty sexy set up.    


first is the transfer switch in my house.
third is an interlock at my mom's house.
second is an interlock at my sister's house.

ar-jedi


Link Posted: 9/3/2013 7:36:38 PM EDT
[#34]
the manual interlock switch is pretty nifty.. first time I've seen one.

all the installs I seen are commercial and use a dedicated GTS/ATS
Link Posted: 9/3/2013 7:39:31 PM EDT
[#35]
Quoted:
I know you absolutely need a cutout switch, or whatever it's called that disconnects the home wiring from the service, and connects the generator to the home wiring.  For SMALL loads, could you just connect the generator cable to a 220v double breaker and stick it in your breaker box?  
View Quote

the OEM Square-D, UL-listed interlocks shown above fit their "Homeline" and "HO" style service panels, install in 10 minutes, and cost about US$50.  you may have to shuffle a couple of breakers around, since most service panels are filled "top down" and the interlocked breaker must go in the upper right corner of the panel.

of course, other service panel manufacturers also make interlock kits, and third parties do as well.  hence, it is highly probably that an interlock kit (similar to the Square-D type i showed above) exists for your panel.

ar-jedi
Link Posted: 9/3/2013 7:43:02 PM EDT
[#36]
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Quoted:
the manual interlock switch is pretty nifty.. first time I've seen one.
all the installs I seen are commercial and use a dedicated GTS/ATS
View Quote

compared to a transfer switch, the primary advantages of the interlock plate include the ability for the generator to power ANY load in the house, and of course ease of installation.  the Square-D models i have installed (shown above) do require drilling of the front cover (using a supplied drill template) to mount the shoulder screws.  after that, pop in the 2 pole breaker, wire the breaker using appropriate gauge 4 conductor cable, secure an internal bracket, and close it up.  test, then wait for the Big Storm.

ar-jedi
Link Posted: 9/3/2013 7:46:54 PM EDT
[#37]
Note to carpenters:

It's called a "suicide" cord for a reason.  
Link Posted: 9/3/2013 7:58:59 PM EDT
[#38]
I appreciate the advice.  I would be absolutely certain the main was open.  I never have really heard or thought of a "suicide cord".    Powering the breaker box seems more ideal,  though I guess either would work.  I'm curious.. is this to be plugged into a 220 outlet behind the stove or dryer, or a regular 110 outlet?  Because the 110 wouldn't run the hot water tanks.  Besides the dryer and stove aren't really accessible with a short cord.

No, heating is not a concern.  Both houses I'd be interested in powering have wood and propane burning stoves. One has a central heat gas funace, 110 blower.   Generator power would only for lights, tv hot water heater, and microwave or stove.  

The power only really goes off around here during the winter ice storms, but in past years, it has stayed off a few days.  



Link Posted: 9/3/2013 8:02:39 PM EDT
[#39]
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Quoted:
With a 4,000 watt generator you can't run the whole house anyway.  Invest in heavy duty extension cords to run the fridge, some lights, and maybe a fan or two and call it good.  Winter, maybe put a 1500 watt heater in one room and go into camping mode.

Paladin
View Quote



This


Link Posted: 9/3/2013 8:15:42 PM EDT
[#40]

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Quoted:





the OEM Square-D, UL-listed interlocks shown above fit their "Homeline" and "HO" style service panels, install in 10 minutes, and cost about US$50.  you may have to shuffle a couple of breakers around, since most service panels are filled "top down" and the interlocked breaker must go in the upper right corner of the panel.



of course, other service panel manufacturers also make interlock kits, and third parties do as well.  hence, it is highly probably that an interlock kit (similar to the Square-D type i showed above) exists for your panel.



ar-jedi

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Quoted:



Quoted:

I know you absolutely need a cutout switch, or whatever it's called that disconnects the home wiring from the service, and connects the generator to the home wiring.  For SMALL loads, could you just connect the generator cable to a 220v double breaker and stick it in your breaker box?  


the OEM Square-D, UL-listed interlocks shown above fit their "Homeline" and "HO" style service panels, install in 10 minutes, and cost about US$50.  you may have to shuffle a couple of breakers around, since most service panels are filled "top down" and the interlocked breaker must go in the upper right corner of the panel.



of course, other service panel manufacturers also make interlock kits, and third parties do as well.  hence, it is highly probably that an interlock kit (similar to the Square-D type i showed above) exists for your panel.



ar-jedi

Is there an internal bracket that bolts that breaker in place as well?





 
Link Posted: 9/3/2013 8:19:22 PM EDT
[#41]
Whatever you decide to do, research it well and test the junk out of it.

Kill-a-watt to test how big a gennie you'll need. Lots of fuel! Figure X amount of fuel for Z amount of run time. Multiply that by how many days you may be without power. Then run it for a weekend! Off grid weekends are a ton of fun when planning comes together. Camping at your house without the nasty weather is much easier to work out any problems with your power system.

Good luck.
Link Posted: 9/3/2013 8:29:15 PM EDT
[#42]
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Quoted:
Is there an internal bracket that bolts that breaker in place as well?  
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I know you absolutely need a cutout switch, or whatever it's called that disconnects the home wiring from the service, and connects the generator to the home wiring.  For SMALL loads, could you just connect the generator cable to a 220v double breaker and stick it in your breaker box?  

the OEM Square-D, UL-listed interlocks shown above fit their "Homeline" and "HO" style service panels, install in 10 minutes, and cost about US$50.  you may have to shuffle a couple of breakers around, since most service panels are filled "top down" and the interlocked breaker must go in the upper right corner of the panel.

of course, other service panel manufacturers also make interlock kits, and third parties do as well.  hence, it is highly probably that an interlock kit (similar to the Square-D type i showed above) exists for your panel.

ar-jedi
Is there an internal bracket that bolts that breaker in place as well?  

yes, in the Square-D design there is an internal bracket that secures the breaker in place and (until it is again removed) prevents you from taking the feed wires off.

ETA
in fact, if you look closely at my pics above, you can see the outline of the internal bracket visible in the cutout for the backfed breaker.

ar-jedi
Link Posted: 9/3/2013 8:55:33 PM EDT
[#43]
I have only had to backfeed twice but when I did I shut off the main and pulled the meter...and YES I cut that little tag off...
I did it with a male to male  and an unused 220 outlet in my kitchen (gas stove but wired for 220)

I have since wired 220 to the garage and will use that panel instead next time...
Link Posted: 9/4/2013 6:51:23 AM EDT
[#44]
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Quoted:
I appreciate the advice.  I would be absolutely certain the main was open.  
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Quoted:
I appreciate the advice.  I would be absolutely certain the main was open.  

the interlock plates (shown above) or a transfer switch (also shown above) guarantee that the main and generator will not be interconnected at any time.  all it takes is a moment's inattention and you will have your generator on fire due to the power grid cooking it.  the interlock plates are so inexpensive, and so easy to install, that i am amazed that folks still contemplate using suicide cords.  

Quoted:
I never have really heard or thought of a "suicide cord".

i wonder why they are called that.  

Quoted:
Powering the breaker box seems more ideal

it's the right way to do it, it provides the most safety, it provides the most options, it provides the most convenience, and it's clean.

you will need:

-- interlock plate designed for your service panel.  
see your service panel manufacturer's website, or see sites such as
http://www.geninterlock.com/product.html

30A solution (up to 7200W generators)
-- 30A 2 pole breaker compatible with your service panel
-- 10AWG 10/3 w/ground NM electrical cable
-- Reliance PB30 generator inlet
-- suitable length of 10AWG 4 conductor SOOW cordage from generator to inlet (*)
-- 30A connectors for generator end and inlet end (*)

50A solution (up to 12000W generators)
-- 50A 2 pole breaker compatible with your service panel
-- 6AWG 6/3 w/ground NM electrical cable
-- Reliance PB50 generator inlet
-- suitable length of 6AWG 4 conductor SOOW cordage from generator to inlet (*)
-- 50A connectors for generator end and inlet end (*)

(*) the noted generator cordage assemblies can be purchased pre-built from Amazon and others such as Tractor Supply.  everything else is available in the electric aisle at Home Depot or Lowes.  

it is often easier to locate the generator inlet near the service panel, and use a longer length of connectorized cordage to attach to the inlet.  the inlet can even be inside the house -- the connectorized cordage from the generator can then be passed through a basement window or pre-installed piece of PVC pipe (with cleanout caps).

ar-jedi
Link Posted: 9/7/2013 6:29:19 AM EDT
[#45]
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Quoted:
Probably, because there is the matter of the suicide cord too, and the whole operation may not always be done in the best conditions (i.e. you're tired, it's dark, etc.)  It's not rocket science, but that doesn't mean it can't be screwed up pretty easily.
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Probably, because there is the matter of the suicide cord too, and the whole operation may not always be done in the best conditions (i.e. you're tired, it's dark, etc.)  It's not rocket science, but that doesn't mean it can't be screwed up pretty easily.

and/or, you get injured doing something else, and subsequently your wife or kids need to manage the power situation, and they don't know what can kill them... or your short-term memory loss/confusion leads to your own bone-headedness...

http://forums.equipped.org/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=252732#Post252732

09:00 As I am cutting a large limb (6" diameter), I am unaware that the part I expected to remain on the roof has just slid down perpendicular to the gutter and then rotated, causing the end of the limb to strike me in the right rear of the head. I feel what I perceive to be a severe electric shock, lose consciousness and fall off the roof, landing squarely on my hip on a basketball sized rock. I awake quickly, and am ambulatory, however, I have severe blurring of vision in my left eye and am seeing "floaters" and other distortions. Nausea sets in and I realize that I am at immediate risk from possible intra-cranial trauma. I call my counterpart in the emergency management office and tell him I need an ambulance. The roads are impassable. Using only cell phones and person-to-person communications, word is spread that access to my home is needed, and members of Bucks County Station 42, 48, 49 and 47 literally cut their way as close as the possibly can to my home, and, at 0940, the medic crew walks the last 1,000 feet that are simply impassable over the road. They strap me to a backboard and since I know them, and I'm conscious, and I have strapped many a patient to a backboard with these folks, the banter is easy and factual. I need a level 2 trauma center, due to the mode of injury, but there's no way to get me to one. My neighbor's pickup truck is called into service and they drive me off-road through yards to get back to the ambulance and I go to a "regular" hospital. I've gone on long enough, but to summarize, my head is harder than even I knew, my hip is a horror to behold - but not broken and I found a few other dents and scratches after I got home from the hospital.

I rest.

October 31: I have a concussion, short-term memory and confusion are issues, plus now I realize just how badly I hurt my hip. My job as Emergency Management Coordinator is, fortunately, made easier by the fact that despite the huge winds and tree damage, there is actually minimal damage to the area- in fact, my home is the worst hit of all that we are aware of. Roads are still mostly impassible, communications are poor, but for the most part, things aren't that bad.
Link Posted: 9/7/2013 6:32:20 AM EDT
[#46]
I just unplug my gas furnace and plug it into the extension cord running from the generator.
Link Posted: 9/7/2013 10:59:36 AM EDT
[#47]


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Quoted:



I just unplug my gas furnace and plug it into the extension cord running from the generator.
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What do you do for your perishable food?




I guess you could stick the food outside during the winter




Summertime is a different story

 
Link Posted: 9/7/2013 1:41:16 PM EDT
[#48]

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Quoted:


Below is a better way to achieve more or less the same thing, energizing just a few circuits.  Energizing my furnace circuit, including circulating pumps, takes like 100 watts and heats the whole house, compared to a single 1500 watt electric that might do one room and take the entire capacity of my little Honda.





http://www.generator-switch.com/
View Quote




 
That's pretty simple.. and slick.
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