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Posted: 4/12/2001 10:24:09 PM EDT
It really bugs me. To me a hero is someone went into harm's way or faced adversity against the odds and triumphed. These guys were technicians who landed a damaged plane, were detained in a comfy billet, and lost their top secret equipment. I worked around TS equipment when I was in, and making it to shore and surrenduring my equipment would NOT be a cause for celebration. I heard Bush's speech and others welcoming them home and had to turn it off after a while. These guys are not 'Nam tunnel rats, or Hanoi Hilton guests. Perhaps I am still nauseous from hearing about McCain all the time, but a hero should be more than a good sandwich.
Link Posted: 4/12/2001 10:25:34 PM EDT
Because the actions required to be a real hero are now unpopular.
Link Posted: 4/12/2001 10:27:01 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/12/2001 10:26:29 PM EDT by schv]
I think your absolutley right pogo. These guys should have ditched their plane in the ocean and hoped Air Force pj's would pick'em up. WTF were they thinking? You can tell these guys are not Infantry.
Link Posted: 4/12/2001 10:39:09 PM EDT
This would be the equivalent of an Infantry soldier having one of his guys go down wounded, and then taking the whole squad to an enemy hospital so Pfc Dickface can get glued back together. They have disgraced our nation and our armed forces by doing what they did. Which is basically the equivalent of surrendering. Bullshit moves like this is why our armed forces our having "recruiting" problems. There is simply no honor in being a soldier anymore.......sorry for the rant guys.
Link Posted: 4/12/2001 10:45:45 PM EDT
I sure hope there was some type of high-tech self-destruct system incorporated into the sensitive parts of their equipment. The main requirement for becoming a military hero today seems to be bad luck, perhaps even self-generated in some cases. But it does sound like the pilot deserves some credit for his post-crash flying skills. I don't suppose he personally made the final decision about where to land.
Link Posted: 4/12/2001 10:47:18 PM EDT
Originally Posted By schv: I think your absolutley right pogo. These guys should have ditched their plane in the ocean and hoped Air Force pj's would pick'em up. WTF were they thinking? You can tell these guys are not Infantry.
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WTF were they thinking? Probably about doing what they were ordered to do. Which is probably what they did. You armchair commandos make me sick. Ok these guys are not heroes in the true sense, but they sure don't deserve this BS either. [puke]
Link Posted: 4/12/2001 10:52:24 PM EDT
Callahan, these pussys were thinking about nothing but saving their worthless hides!!!!!
Link Posted: 4/12/2001 10:58:01 PM EDT
Fuck all of you armchair commandos to motherfucking hell. Asswipe motherfuckers, you are about some lame-assed commie cocksuckers.
Link Posted: 4/12/2001 11:04:37 PM EDT
Originally Posted By schv: Callahan, these pussys were thinking about nothing but saving their worthless hides!!!!!
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Man, I don't know where you are coming from, or where you have been, but I do know one thing. Unless you were in that plane, listening to everything that went on in the cockpit, and on the radio,(you know they had to be in contact with command from the moment things looked hairy) then you don't know jack. Right now, no one has said anything to make me believe they weren't ordered to do exactly what they did. If it comes out they did, then I will eat my words. I don't think that will happen. While you are within your rights to state your opinion, for the moment I will say that what you have been spouting seems to be so far groundless, judgemental, and just plain ignorant.
Link Posted: 4/12/2001 11:06:41 PM EDT
Does any of you honestly think the lives of 24 people is worth our national security? You have got to look at the big picture, and not get caught up in the "bleeding heart" shit. NEVER is the well being of ANYONE paramount over our nations security in any way shape or form. If you guys don't like the truth go to Rosie's website you may find someone there who will cry with you. I won't!!
Link Posted: 4/12/2001 11:09:36 PM EDT
Callahan if they were ordered to land on a communist airstrip, then just apply my words to their commanding officer, and so on, and so on, up the chain of command. This should not have happened under any circumstance. NO EXCEPTIONS.
Link Posted: 4/12/2001 11:12:17 PM EDT
come on guys we all know TOP SECRET does'nt mean landing at a chinese fucking airport. destroy that shit, ditch the plane, remember? TOP SECRET? do that, you're a hero.
Link Posted: 4/12/2001 11:20:27 PM EDT
schv, I don't see anyone saying that. Nobody's coming off with any "bleeding heart" crap. What I'm saying is, you have no idea what orders these guys were given. Considering what type of aircraft this was, it was a certainty that they were in contact with the HIGHEST levels of command. If they were told to ditch, they would have. If they were told to destroy their sensitive info & equipment and land the plane, that's what they did. I'm sure you'r not suggesting that the A/C should have just said F*** command, it's better if we ditch....BANZAIIIII. I think you have a litte more military sense than that. And no, these guys aren't Infantry...or engineer...or armor. They are Naval Aviation, in an UNARMED surveillance plane. They do things differently than a Combat Arms troop, because they are a little different. End of story.
Link Posted: 4/12/2001 11:28:13 PM EDT
Does anyone think that they just landed the plane and turned all the high tech gadgets over to the Chicoms? Come on now, be real. The reason that the pilot landed that plane where he did, is because he was ordered to do so. If he had disobeyed orders and ditched the aircraft in the water, potentially killing some crew members in the process, he would be in deep dung. Officially, publically, and he would have to live with it also. The equipment on board was destroyed by the aircrew the minute that they realized they would have to land where they did. Does anyone think that it was all kept intact, and just willfully handed to the Chinese? I do not think that they are heroes in the classic sense of the word. I believe that the pilot did a hell of a job in keeping his craft in the air and landing it safely, but that was more a function of the level of training that he had recieved, and experience behind the stick. Regardless of wether they are heros or not, they are not traitors to our country. They did exactly what they were ordered to do. Whether that was the right thing or the wrong thing is a matter of conjecture. That is how I see it. Others may think differently, but they like myself were not on the aircraft. Chuck
Link Posted: 4/12/2001 11:36:49 PM EDT
Amen, Chuck
Link Posted: 4/13/2001 12:12:24 AM EDT
Armchair warrior, hell! What was your MOS? When I was on submarines the only difference between a shooting war and peacetime is that we had to offload unexpended ordnance in port. I can't imagine these guys had a much different mindset. The mission always comes first. Sometimes there may be some very hard choices to make, and they must be made very fast. Keeping everyone from possibly being harmed is not rule 1 in a military mission. Remember Mogadishu? Here, a bad chain of decisions made by someone. I am not pointing fingers here at the pilot in particular, but look at the result. I doubt if we will ever hear the real story. Perhaps the Chinese doublecrossed us when they realized what they had. Who knows? Alot of this story will never make the news. Alot of very newsworthy stuff didn't make the news when I was in, either. The first news of this was that the most top secret aircraft we had was delivered intact to the Chinese. Next, the story was that they had time to destroy most of the equipment (in 20 minutes tops-ever look at bolted in equipment with what they probably had available?). Now, the story is that the software is the only thing important, and they destroyed the hard drives. We are being lied to! The crew is composed of military members who knew that very rough things may be expected of them. I am glad they were not abandoned to a Communist gulag like so many others were, but I saw little to justify welcoming them home like conquering heroes. A "welcome back" is certainly appropriate, but the BS I heard could only have been spouted by a politician.
Link Posted: 4/13/2001 12:12:38 AM EDT
Originally Posted By ClearFire: Fuck all of you armchair commandos to motherfucking hell. Asswipe motherfuckers, you are about some lame-assed commie cocksuckers.
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Lighten up Francis.
Link Posted: 4/13/2001 12:57:51 AM EDT
As I have said many, many times, "reward cowardice, and others follow by example!" Quite frankly, I do not give a damn who does not like my response, it is the truth!
Link Posted: 4/13/2001 2:23:49 AM EDT
And now, in part 2 of this mess... Why are we "asking nice" for the return of the airplane? Why not use a B-2 to make a nice big hole in the runway? The Chinese are so interested in our technology, give them a live fire demo. Bush, the best of a bad choice.
Link Posted: 4/13/2001 2:58:29 AM EDT
Originally Posted By platform389: And now, in part 2 of this mess... Why are we "asking nice" for the return of the airplane? Why not use a B-2 to make a nice big hole in the runway? The Chinese are so interested in our technology, give them a live fire demo. Bush, the best of a bad choice.
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Why worry about this? I'm sure Klinton already handed them technology that makes that plane very outdated. (And I'm not being sarcastic)...
Link Posted: 4/13/2001 3:00:40 AM EDT
Originally Posted By ClearFire: Fuck all of you armchair commandos to motherfucking hell. Asswipe motherfuckers, you are about some lame-assed commie cocksuckers.
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I agree.
Link Posted: 4/13/2001 3:21:55 AM EDT
i want all you kids to think hard. add a dose of skepticism, a pinch of doubt, and a touch of mistrust. the chinese have been in the limelight for a few years. why? think. put your own conclusions to what you know. as i have. to wit: illegal contributions by china to the clinton campaign, taiwanese arms sales, loss and eventual recovery of secret files by a chinese(?)-american scientist, and now the plane/hostages incident. many more that you have to have to find out for yourself as i have. think.
Link Posted: 4/13/2001 4:57:09 AM EDT
They had more than enough time to disable/destroy onboard equipment. Most of the sensitive equipment was software based. Can you say "delete?" As for those who think they should have ditched the aircraft, go "ditch" your car into a telephone pole at 65 mph and see how well that works. Live to fight another day. That's what they did.
Link Posted: 4/13/2001 5:20:43 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/13/2001 5:20:56 AM EDT by jeepboy]
Originally Posted By redray: i want all you kids to think hard. add a dose of skepticism, a pinch of doubt, and a touch of mistrust. the chinese have been in the limelight for a few years. why? think. put your own conclusions to what you know. as i have. to wit: illegal contributions by china to the clinton campaign, taiwanese arms sales, loss and eventual recovery of secret files by a chinese(?)-american scientist, and now the plane/hostages incident. many more that you have to have to find out for yourself as i have. think.
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Now that is on the mark. We will never know the REAL story. Perhaps this goes back months , or even a year. Anyone who thinks this is about getting back 24 people and a plane has no idea the depths of the subversion, and treason going on. It makes me sick when the news reports come across with the "human side" of the crew. Who doesnt feel bad to see Americans held against their will. But guess what, they KNEW they were on high-risk missions, carrying very important equipment. They knew their ultimate mission NOT to return home safely, but to keep national security in tact. It is way above any of the crew what happened. The BIG BOYS IN CHARGE that no one hears about know what is going on. We will never know what happened
Link Posted: 4/13/2001 5:20:46 AM EDT
Link Posted: 4/13/2001 5:46:02 AM EDT
Jimmy Carter was a nuclear engineer with a degree from Anapolis...stupid?... a traitor maybe for selling out the panama canal now in chinese hands The crew of the EP-3E were passangers with no decision making powers..should they be honored for surviving..why not...my MOS two of them 11B/91B (grunt/combat medic)..Mobile Riverine Force 9th Divsion RVN...Maybe the reason in honoring them is because its something America hasnt a habit of doing since the 60s..(Im not bitchn now just stating facts) when I came home in 1970 it was to riots we had rocks, dog sheet in plastic bags thown at us and we were spit on and called all kinds of names..the Army told us to get into civies if we wanted to travel home because GIs were being attacked ...I was hitching home in uniform and some SOB tried to hit me with his pickup...so if Bush wants to honor these sailors I say why not ...maybe it will set a trend and America will honor its military who put their lives on the line every day just my two centabos
Link Posted: 4/13/2001 6:00:36 AM EDT
A real hero would have ditched that plane even if it meant risking the crew's lives. That aircraft was too important to hand over to the chinese. I think the pilots should be transferred to desk jobs because of this blunder.
Link Posted: 4/13/2001 6:21:38 AM EDT
Originally Posted By pogo: Armchair warrior, hell! What was your MOS?
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29F - Fixed Cryptographic Equipment Repair. All cryptographic equipment rated Secret or higher has some means of destruction built into it (KG84,KG86). Equipment rated Confidential (KY3,STU2,STU3) was considered worthless without the crypto keys installed. Newer high-end equipment has self-frying electronics built in. Older equipment had a nice little X on the front of the box which meant "Shoot here for maximum damage". Although we never had to do it, we were trained on how to destroy or disable the same equipment we were trained to repair. For the most part, the electronics of these things are nothing special. Don't you think Japan (the electronics kings of the planet) could easily duplicate the functionality with just a good guess? It is embedded software and crypto keys that make this equipment worth the parts they are made of. And these things are very simple to destroy. IMHO, all China has right now is an old airplane with a bunch of useless electronics in it. To suggest that the US sends out "spy planes" loaded to the hilt with crypto and spy gear without any means to prevent it from falling in to enemy hands is ludicrous. Sorry guys, but our Airmen are not taught to die protecting equipment that can be disabled. They are taught to survive and return home so they can get back in a plane and continue doing their jobs. Heros? In a sense, yes. Anyone that puts on the uniform for the defense of our country is a hero in my book. National Heros? No, not really. They're just men and women doing their job. LL
Link Posted: 4/13/2001 6:29:00 AM EDT
CLEARFIRE! I asked you to tone down your language on this forum. It doesn't matter if you are a Junior or Senior member, that is un-called for. And yes I understand if I don't like it, don't read it. But your trash talk is right in the flow of things. The sponsors of this sight can censor people like that also. People who post like that show a limited IQ,vocabulary and intelligence.
Link Posted: 4/13/2001 6:56:07 AM EDT
All you blood n' thunder patriots who think the aircrew should have died rather than let the plane fall into Chinese hands are a hoot. I'd say fifty percent of you are teenagers who learned all they know about the military from HBO, and the other fifty percent are aging lard-asses who figure their four years of being a clerk typist make them the David Hackworths of AR15.com. Clearly, the solution is for all of you to fly to Taiwan, arm yourselves with black market weapons, and stage a commando raid with the goal of recovering or destroying the aircraft...just like in all those movies er, I mean "training films" you've wanked over for so long. H. Ross Perot can probably be persuaded to finance the mission, especially with a hard-bitten bunch of manly men like you running the show. I nominate Andreusan as your leader, since he is the biggest blowhard among you and therefore must be the most qualified. If you are successful, you will be true heroes and a shining example to teenagers and lard-asses everywhere. If you fail, you will die...but then that shouldn't be an issue because that is exactly what you expected the aircrew to do, and you will STILL be a shining example to teenagers and lard-asses everywhere. You should call your unit something dramatic..."Full o' Shit Fusilliers", "The Wild-ass Wannabe's" anybody else got any ideas for naming this elite strike force?
Link Posted: 4/13/2001 8:20:56 AM EDT
There really are some JERKS on this board.[:(!] Friday, April 13 7:07 PM SGT US plane crew stalled armed Chinese soldiers to destroy spy data BEIJING, April 13 (AFP) - The crew of a US spy plane which made an emergency landing in China were able to destroy all sensitive material as Chinese soldiers threatened them with guns, a senior US diplomat said Friday. "The crew accomplished all of its check list," the diplomat, who asked not to be identified, told reporters in Beijing. He said the crew remained in the EP-3 surveillance plane for an estimated 15 minutes after landing on the southern Chinese island of Hainan following a collision with a Chinese fighter jet. "They went through procedures and the Chinese were trying to stop them," he said. Armed Chinese soldiers surrounded the plane and began shouting to the crew in Chinese through loudhailers, the diplomat added. "Their guns were drawn and they could have forced their way in. They were motioning, they had loudspeakers, they made it clear they wanted the crew off the plane." The 21 men and three women were detained for 11 days after the incident, which led to a major stand off between China and the US. They were freed Thursday after lengthy diplomatic negotiations led to the US government offering a carefully worded letter of regret.
Link Posted: 4/13/2001 8:30:50 AM EDT
I somewhat agree with what jeepboy said, our Gov. has been way too friendly with the Chicoms. What with all the dealings of the Clinton administration, it is not implausible to think that there were underhanded dealings somewhere in this mess. I do not believe that any traitors to this country were aboard that aircraft. I may be proven wrong, and if that happens I will stand corrected. Chuck
Link Posted: 4/13/2001 8:37:26 AM EDT
My definition of "hero" is someone that goes above and beyond the call of duty and placing themselves at GREAT risk to life and limb in order to save the lives of others. These 24 do not meet my criteria of "heroes". They were just following protocol and nothing more.
Link Posted: 4/13/2001 8:55:45 AM EDT
National heroes? No. Cowards? Not that either. We don't know and will never know what exactly happened. We've been told that all sensitive equipment was rendered useless to the Chinese, and I believe that statement. I also believe that the Clinton administration gave the Chinese enough technology over the past eight years to render the value of this equipment limited at best. Remember, the Chinese inspected and almost bought one of these planes from Israel a few months back. If the technology in that plane was that sensitive, the plane would be equipped with remote detonation capabilities like the stealth fighters, stealth bombers and SR-71, and the pilot would have no option other than to ditch the plane. Aircrews give their lives on a regular basis, and the fact that this crew didn't does not necessarily point to an act of cowardice. It more than likely points to the fact that the plane was truly of limited value to the Chinese, and that all the rhetoric concerning the sensitivity of this loss is hyperbole to make the Chicoms think that they've captured something special. One thing for sure. I've been a civilian all my life, and unless there is clear evidence of cowardice or wrongdoing I'll not commit the shameful act disgracing those who put their lives on the line to protect my safety.
Link Posted: 4/13/2001 3:00:05 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/13/2001 3:00:27 PM EDT by AKsRule]
Some of you will understand this - most will not [:(] http://www.nightstalkers.com/poems/simple.html JUST A SIMPLE SOLDIER He was getting old and paunchy and his hair was falling fast And he sat around the Legion telling stories of the past, Of a war that he had fought in and the deeds that he had done In his exploits with his buddies; they were heroes, every one. And 'tho sometimes to his neighbors, his tales became a joke, All his buddies listened, for they knew where of he spoke. But we'll hear his tales no longer, for old Bob has passed away And the world's a little poorer, for a soldier died today. No he won't be mourned by many, just his children and his wife, For he lived an ordinary very quiet sort of life, He held a job and raised a family, quietly going on his way; And the world won't note his passing; 'tho a soldier died today. When politicians leave this earth, their bodies lie in state, While thousands note their passing and proclaim that they were great, Papers tell of their life stories from the time that they were young, But the passing of a soldier goes unnoticed, and unsung. Is the greatest contribution to the welfare of our land Some jerk who breaks his promise and cons his fellow man? Or the ordinary fellow who in times of war and strife Goes off to serve his Country and offers up his life? The politician's stipend and the style in which he lives Are sometimes disproportionate to the services he gives, While the ordinary soldier, who offered up his all, Is paid off with a medal, and perhaps a pension small. It's so easy to forget them, for it was so long ago That our Bob's and Jim's and Johnny's went to battle, but we know It was not the politicians, with their compromise and ploys, Who won for us the freedom that our country now enjoys. Should you find yourself in danger with your enemies at hand, Would you really want some cop-out with his ever waffling stand? Or would you want a soldier who has sworn to defend His home, his kin, and country, and would fight until the end? He was just a common soldier and his ranks are growing thin But his presence should remind us, we may need his like again. For when countries are in conflict, then we find the soldier's part Is to clean up all the troubles that the politicians start. If we cannot do him honor while he's here to hear the praise, Then at least let's give him homage at the ending of his days. Perhaps a simple headline in the paper that might say: OUR COUNTRY IS IN MOURNING, FOR A SOLDIER DIED TODAY.
Link Posted: 4/13/2001 3:22:34 PM EDT
BTT - Any Questions?
Link Posted: 4/13/2001 3:40:47 PM EDT
guys, this is insane. yelling at each other over something none of us can control. geesh. deep breaths. i don't think they're heroes either, in the traditional since of the word. BUT, they did risk life and limb (they're in the military!!!). and they DID succeed in destroy senstive, top secret, or otherwise touchy information that shouldn't be spread around. one crewman was even quoted as saying that he helped toss stuff overboard! they way i heard it, the plane nearly rolled over after the chinese pilot hit them. the pilot had his hands full. if he HADN'T been successful in landing that plane, the same ones on this board pissing and moaning about how ditching was the right action would be donning the war paint and ready to kick some chinese butt. without 100% of the information, i don't know how any of you can be making judgements about what happened.
Link Posted: 4/13/2001 4:04:14 PM EDT
[img]http://home.earthlink.net/~thegardenweasel/nopassingonleft.gif[/img]
Link Posted: 4/13/2001 5:56:15 PM EDT
Originally Posted By garden weasel: [img]http://home.earthlink.net/~thegardenweasel/nopassingonleft.gif[/img]
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"CAUTION: PLANE MAKES WIDE LEFT HAND TURNS"
Link Posted: 4/13/2001 9:04:03 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/13/2001 9:04:09 PM EDT by prk]
A couple of guys here sound like they would shoot at about any noise in the dark. There's a lot we don't know about this, and some we never will. It's human to speculate, but let's not forget that's what it is for the most part so far. There aren't many facts out yet, though the Chinese side of things are predictably exaggerated, or to be less kind, fabricated. We're just now hearing some details. I agree that it's a real stretch to call all 24 "heroes" (with the possible exception of the pilot for saving the plane from an, umm, unusual flight attitude) - it diminishes the very real and total sacrifices others made in the past. But they certainly all deserve a warm welcome back. It's hard to accept any American plane, especially one of this kind, being delivered into enemy hands. I don't really buy the idea that this was all staged to deliver disinformation to the Chinese (e.g., phony / obsolete equipment and false or misleading data), though it would be a great coup if we could get them to waste a bunch of research and engineering on the wrong generation of equipment. The value of diplomancy in dealing with a country like China is, to me, [b]way[/b]overblown. Now that we've got our people back, let's put the screws to them. [red][size=4]P.R.K.
Link Posted: 4/13/2001 9:20:12 PM EDT
my only problem with the crew of the aircraft is that the aircraft was STILL FLYABLE! The proof is in the distance it flew after the colision. I am an aircraft mech for a major airline and did 10 years in the corps working on iarcraft. i have seen planes in much worst shape fly home. one engine out, no nose radome and no pitot system is not realy that bad.... the pilot in comand chocked...pat
Link Posted: 4/13/2001 9:21:26 PM EDT
Hey snivelers and whiners.... If you don't like my choice of words when I am replying to a post then too bad. I can take an ass chewing by a moderator if need be. I CHOOSE to use the words I used to GET MY POINT ACROSS! To you people who fall back on the old tired argument of "only shows your intellegence, english skills, level of education, etc, etc, I can only say that you have been reading too many gun control arguments. You sound just like the anti-freedom morons trying to take away our Second Amendment right. Been there, done that in an EA-3B!
Link Posted: 4/13/2001 9:37:54 PM EDT
Originally Posted By pogo: Armchair warrior, hell! What was your MOS? When I was on submarines the only difference between a shooting war and peacetime is that we had to offload unexpended ordnance in port. I can't imagine these guys had a much different mindset. The mission always comes first. Sometimes there may be some very hard choices to make, and they must be made very fast. Keeping everyone from possibly being harmed is not rule 1 in a military mission. Remember Mogadishu? Here, a bad chain of decisions made by someone. I am not pointing fingers here at the pilot in particular, but look at the result. I doubt if we will ever hear the real story. Perhaps the Chinese doublecrossed us when they realized what they had. Who knows? Alot of this story will never make the news. Alot of very newsworthy stuff didn't make the news when I was in, either. The first news of this was that the most top secret aircraft we had was delivered intact to the Chinese. Next, the story was that they had time to destroy most of the equipment (in 20 minutes tops-ever look at bolted in equipment with what they probably had available?). Now, the story is that the software is the only thing important, and they destroyed the hard drives. We are being lied to! The crew is composed of military members who knew that very rough things may be expected of them. I am glad they were not abandoned to a Communist gulag like so many others were, but I saw little to justify welcoming them home like conquering heroes. A "welcome back" is certainly appropriate, but the BS I heard could only have been spouted by a politician.
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The most "top secret" aircraft we have won't even become public knowledge for another 20 years, man. Hell, they had the Blackbird for almost 30 before they ever brought it to "official" light. All of you who seem so worried about that plane that was left there can rest assured that it ain't shit compared to the "black" aircraft that is operating. If that thing was our"most top secret aircraft" it never would have made the news!! We would know absolutely nothing about the entire incedent,,,,"what incedent, what are you talking about? we have no aircraft of that type operating anywhere.....
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