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3/20/2017 5:03:23 PM
Posted: 8/18/2013 5:43:53 PM EDT
The AK-47 is on the list, the M16/AR15 isn't


http://www.thefiscaltimes.com/Articles/2013/08/15/12-Weapons-That-Changed-Everything.aspx#page1

By JOSH HERR, The Fiscal Times
August 15, 2013

As the battle over gun rights in America reaches more and more baroque levels it’s easy to lose track of how we got here.

Weaponry and war has been a concern for humanity from its very earliest days. Empires from Greece, Rome and Persia to Napoleonic France and Colonial England have all been built on a backbone of superior firepower. From Roman’s peasants fearing Hannibal’s elephants to Irish farmers dreading the site of Viking warships on the horizon, from Paul Revere’s "The British are coming!” to the 1950’s "Duck and Cover” drills, weaponry has haunted our nightmares for as long as it’s fueled the dreams of boys and conquerors.


The right of protection against tyranny was so important to our founding fathers that they included it as the Second Amendment to the Constitution. This debate still rages, as we weigh the costs of our gun culture against this principle. Technology, as always, drives innovation. And that is just as true with weapons as it is with the Internet.

Just as there is a through line that stretches from the Sears catalog to Amazon.com, there is an equally clear line from the sword to the predator drone.
<snip>
Link Posted: 8/18/2013 5:45:10 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/18/2013 5:46:00 PM EDT
First weapon to go in a trash can, CHANGES EVERYTHING!
Link Posted: 8/18/2013 5:46:11 PM EDT
Originally Posted By AssaultRifler:
The AK-47 is on the list, the M16/AR15 isn't
View Quote


Because its a list of outdated weapons
Link Posted: 8/18/2013 5:46:29 PM EDT
What? NO JUDGE???

Link Posted: 8/18/2013 5:50:45 PM EDT
Originally Posted By AssaultRifler:
...the M16/AR15 isn't
View Quote


God isn't real, drugs should be legal.
Link Posted: 8/18/2013 5:51:30 PM EDT
Originally Posted By AssaultRifler:
The AK-47 is on the list, the M16/AR15 isn't
View Quote


Considering the article author's ignorance, I'm not surprised.

Technically called the “Automat Kalashnikova – 47,” the AK was everything its American counterpart the M-16 was not -- cheap, easy to manufacture, reliable and accurate, and it didn’t hurt that it just looked cooler.
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Link Posted: 8/18/2013 5:56:24 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By kitwulfen:


Considering the article author's ignorance, I'm not surprised.

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Originally Posted By kitwulfen:
Originally Posted By AssaultRifler:
The AK-47 is on the list, the M16/AR15 isn't


Considering the article author's ignorance, I'm not surprised.

Technically called the “Automat Kalashnikova – 47,” the AK was everything its American counterpart the M-16 was not -- cheap, easy to manufacture, reliable and accurate, and it didn’t hurt that it just looked cooler.


Link Posted: 8/18/2013 6:02:01 PM EDT
Originally Posted By AssaultRifler:
The AK-47 is on the list, the M16/AR15 isn't
View Quote


In before Rusted_Ace gets here and the sure to be civil conversation regarding the article.
Link Posted: 8/18/2013 6:02:52 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/18/2013 6:06:11 PM EDT by 6winchester2]
I always consult "The Fiscal Times" when forming my opinions about history making weaponry.

Especially an idiot who describes the M-16 family as not "accurate" as compared to the AK.
Link Posted: 8/18/2013 6:03:15 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/18/2013 6:04:17 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By Bedouin2W:


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Originally Posted By Bedouin2W:
Originally Posted By kitwulfen:
Originally Posted By AssaultRifler:
The AK-47 is on the list, the M16/AR15 isn't


Considering the article author's ignorance, I'm not surprised.

Technically called the “Automat Kalashnikova – 47,” the AK was everything its American counterpart the M-16 was not -- cheap, easy to manufacture, reliable and accurate, and it didn’t hurt that it just looked cooler.





I guess it depends on your definition of "accurate" is.

Link Posted: 8/18/2013 6:04:18 PM EDT
The minie gun wasn't proven in the American Civil War. It was proven during the Crimean War and later the Sepoy Mutiny. The American Civil War proved the viability of the breechloader and repeater.

I think the aeroplane is the other weapon system that was overlooked. I'd take out #1 Club in favor of the influence of airpower. Airpower made behind the lines airdrops possible. It made the battleship obsolete (sorry, while the submarine was a big threat to the big ships, even the submarines were vulnerable to the aeroplane).
Link Posted: 8/18/2013 6:08:39 PM EDT
"Changed" is past tense. M16s are "changing" the world as we speak
Link Posted: 8/18/2013 6:15:35 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By M15A2:


Because its a list of outdated weapons
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Originally Posted By M15A2:
Originally Posted By AssaultRifler:
The AK-47 is on the list, the M16/AR15 isn't


Because its a list of outdated weapons



This is true, and as bad as the article is... the AK did change everything - the AR type rifle was a response to it, a refinement of the idea of a high-capacity intermediate power carbine.
Link Posted: 8/18/2013 6:16:20 PM EDT
They forgot a few;







Link Posted: 8/18/2013 6:22:53 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By the_naked_prophet:



This is true, and as bad as the article is... the AK THE STG-43 did change everything - the AR type rifle was a response to it, a refinement of the idea of a high-capacity intermediate power carbine.
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Originally Posted By the_naked_prophet:
Originally Posted By M15A2:
Originally Posted By AssaultRifler:
The AK-47 is on the list, the M16/AR15 isn't


Because its a list of outdated weapons



This is true, and as bad as the article is... the AK THE STG-43 did change everything - the AR type rifle was a response to it, a refinement of the idea of a high-capacity intermediate power carbine.


How about if we give credit where it is actually due?

Link Posted: 8/18/2013 6:30:38 PM EDT
Artillery needs to be on the list.
Link Posted: 8/18/2013 6:30:48 PM EDT
Barbed wire caused the end of the mounted Cavalry.
Link Posted: 8/18/2013 6:30:57 PM EDT
The AK set a new standard that the world had to play by.
Link Posted: 8/18/2013 6:31:09 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/18/2013 6:31:45 PM EDT by fatcat4620]
Double tap
Link Posted: 8/18/2013 6:32:02 PM EDT
Nice article. Thanks !
Link Posted: 8/18/2013 6:45:30 PM EDT
Some good choices in that list, but some strange ones as well. A phalanx is a weapon?

The problem is that once you get further along in history, the line blurs between a new weapon, and the engraftment of a new technology onto an existing weapon. In other words, what is one listing: a weapon or a component? For example, ought one to choose a lever-action rifle or bolt action rifle as an example of a breech-loading repeating rifle, or would it make more sense to recognize the two technological advancements that did the most to make breech-loading possible (brass casings and primers)? Does it make more sense to say the rifle, or the minie ball? My list:

1. Bone/rock - use something other than yourself to inflict damage
2. Metal blades - the mainstay of human weaponry for what? 7000 years or more?
3. Stirrups - cavalry has arrived
4. Gunpowder/siege cannon - self-evident
5. The ring/socket bayonet - the firearm and the pike rolled into one
6. The revolver - first practical repeating arm
7. The metallic cartridge - the foundation for the holy grail of weapons makers (the breechloader); also the foundation for all the recoil/gas operated repeating arms ever made
8. The tank - the cavalry goes industrial
9. The airplane - I think this ought to also include the aircraft carrier
10. The submarine - pretty self-evident as well
11. Rockets/missiles - also self-evident
12. Nuclear weapons - also self-evident
13. The computer

Yeah, I had to go one over. And all of that almost completely ignores naval warfare for the vast majority of human history, but I don't really feel adequate to that task. At a minimum I think one must consider including the rudder, possibly oars, the ram, the sail, honorable mention to the corvus, Greek fire, and all of the enhancements to ships that I don't really understand but that allowed them to tack ever further into the wind.
Link Posted: 8/18/2013 6:47:57 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/18/2013 6:48:23 PM EDT by Lon_Moer]
Originally Posted By AssaultRifler:
The AK-47 is on the list, the M16/AR15 isn't
<>
<snip>
View Quote
Yes, of course.
The AK is a peasants gun designed to be built in caves by smashing rocks together.
The AR is a sophisticated technologically artistic piece of machinery.
Link Posted: 8/18/2013 7:26:59 PM EDT
Originally Posted By fatcat4620:
The AK set a new standard that the world had to play by.
View Quote


I have to agree with the above. Cheap, easy to make, reliable, accurate enough, etc.

The AR-15 is a good platform but I don't think it had the change that the ak did. The ar's big move in my mind was the move to save weight in both design and ammo size. A very good platform, but the ak will have a greater legacy.
Link Posted: 8/18/2013 7:29:53 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By SouthEndXGF:
What? NO JUDGE MAUSER???

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FIFY
Link Posted: 8/18/2013 7:38:11 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By wganz:
FIFY
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Originally Posted By wganz:
Originally Posted By SouthEndXGF:
What? NO JUDGE MAUSER???

FIFY


Yeah, the fact the bolt action 90% of all subsequent and modern actions are based on went unlisted lets me know exactly how much attention I should give that article.
Link Posted: 8/18/2013 7:52:23 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By 6winchester2:


How about if we give credit where it is actually due?

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Originally Posted By 6winchester2:
Originally Posted By the_naked_prophet:
Originally Posted By M15A2:
Originally Posted By AssaultRifler:
The AK-47 is on the list, the M16/AR15 isn't


Because its a list of outdated weapons



This is true, and as bad as the article is... the AK THE STG-43 did change everything - the AR type rifle was a response to it, a refinement of the idea of a high-capacity intermediate power carbine.


How about if we give credit where it is actually due?

Exactly
Link Posted: 8/18/2013 7:56:03 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/18/2013 7:57:09 PM EDT by JDJR]
I would not pick the AK just any rifle. Winter War was won by bolt action rifles. But liberal news what do you expect...commie rifle is their pick
Link Posted: 8/18/2013 7:59:13 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By 6winchester2:


How about if we give credit where it is actually due?

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Originally Posted By 6winchester2:
Originally Posted By the_naked_prophet:
Originally Posted By M15A2:
Originally Posted By AssaultRifler:
The AK-47 is on the list, the M16/AR15 isn't


Because its a list of outdated weapons



This is true, and as bad as the article is... the AK THE STG-43 did change everything - the AR type rifle was a response to it, a refinement of the idea of a high-capacity intermediate power carbine.


How about if we give credit where it is actually due?


Yes and no. Despite what Kalashnikov says, the AK-47 was obviously based off the idea of the STG.44, however I still think the AK had more of a historical impact on the world of small arms. The STG only saw limited service over just a few years before it evolved into the CETME and G3 and the concept of the Assault Rifle (small, intermediate cartridge rifle/carbine) was pretty much abandoned. While the rest of the world was using full size Battle Rifles like the M14, FAL, G3, etc. Russia was about the only country using an Assault Rifle, which the rest of the world eventually started using throughout the Cold War.
Link Posted: 8/18/2013 8:06:32 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By Nagewaza624:



I guess it depends on your definition of "accurate" is.

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Originally Posted By Nagewaza624:
Originally Posted By Bedouin2W:
Originally Posted By kitwulfen:


Considering the article author's ignorance, I'm not surprised.

Technically called the "Automat Kalashnikova – 47,” the AK was everything its American counterpart the M-16 was not -- cheap, easy to manufacture, reliable and accurate, and it didn’t hurt that it just looked cooler.





I guess it depends on your definition of "accurate" is.



Here's another

Hollywood also did their part, preferring its curved clip



Link Posted: 8/18/2013 8:12:03 PM EDT
Glock should be on the list, as well as the 1911
Link Posted: 8/18/2013 8:20:20 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By JDJR:
I would not pick the AK just any rifle. Winter War was won by bolt action rifles. But liberal news what do you expect...commie rifle is their pick
View Quote
You mean the same commie rifle used by the Finn's. The M-39 is a mosin nagant. Made in Russia. Sexed up in Finnland. The Finn's purchased surplus Chinese and DDR ak's for their reserve forces. Not to mention the Valmet is a ak. The Finn's won the winter wars because they were fighting conscripts and had everything to lose.
Link Posted: 8/18/2013 8:40:08 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/18/2013 8:40:36 PM EDT by jered1321]
No M1 garand WHAT THE FUCK
Link Posted: 8/18/2013 8:42:27 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By Wolverine1776:

Yes and no. Despite what Kalashnikov says, the AK-47 was obviously based off the idea of the STG.44, however I still think the AK had more of a historical impact on the world of small arms. The STG only saw limited service over just a few years before it evolved into the CETME and G3 and the concept of the Assault Rifle (small, intermediate cartridge rifle/carbine) was pretty much abandoned. While the rest of the world was using full size Battle Rifles like the M14, FAL, G3, etc. Russia was about the only country using an Assault Rifle, which the rest of the world eventually started using throughout the Cold War.
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Originally Posted By Wolverine1776:
Originally Posted By 6winchester2:
Originally Posted By the_naked_prophet:
Originally Posted By M15A2:
Originally Posted By AssaultRifler:
The AK-47 is on the list, the M16/AR15 isn't


Because its a list of outdated weapons



This is true, and as bad as the article is... the AK THE STG-43 did change everything - the AR type rifle was a response to it, a refinement of the idea of a high-capacity intermediate power carbine.


How about if we give credit where it is actually due?


Yes and no. Despite what Kalashnikov says, the AK-47 was obviously based off the idea of the STG.44, however I still think the AK had more of a historical impact on the world of small arms. The STG only saw limited service over just a few years before it evolved into the CETME and G3 and the concept of the Assault Rifle (small, intermediate cartridge rifle/carbine) was pretty much abandoned. While the rest of the world was using full size Battle Rifles like the M14, FAL, G3, etc. Russia was about the only country using an Assault Rifle, which the rest of the world eventually started using throughout the Cold War.

So if Russia's rifle was popular the world over, and it's based on an earlier German rifle, shouldn't the basis rifle be the more influential item?
Kinda like Maxim's design being copied and modified by Vickers; Maxim would get the credit for influencing the Brits.
Link Posted: 8/18/2013 9:03:08 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By fatcat4620:
The AK set a new standard that the world had to play by.
View Quote


but it really wasn't a significant giant step in evolution other than being cheap. Clip fed gas-operated semi-(or fully)automatic "shoulder" weapons had been around 30-40 years by then.
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