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Posted: 8/14/2013 3:11:45 PM EDT
[#1]
Wow this is unreal. My condolences to the family of the crew.
 My company's HQ is only a few miles from the airport.
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Posted: 8/14/2013 3:13:25 PM EDT
[#2]
ask for prayers,
good friend lost his wife in this crash... SCF.. RIP angel wings now |
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Posted: 8/14/2013 3:20:09 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
No chance Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Fuel issue is what I heard. I don't know shit about aviation I do know there is no such thing as coasting on fumes in a 767. No chance History says otherwise. Google "Gimli glider" and learn from historical fact. |
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Posted: 8/14/2013 3:26:19 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
History says otherwise. Google "Gimli glider" and learn from historical fact. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Fuel issue is what I heard. I don't know shit about aviation I do know there is no such thing as coasting on fumes in a 767. No chance History says otherwise. Google "Gimli glider" and learn from historical fact. Refer to page 4 
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Posted: 8/14/2013 3:27:44 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Spot on Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Here are some aerial photos. http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q139/DAL2750/-b6d10abfa6f64281_zps3924b434.jpg ETA: Weather at the time of the accident: METAR text: KBHM 141053Z 01003KT 10SM OVC070 23/22 A2999 RMK AO2 SLP146 T02330222 Conditions at: KBHM (BIRMINGHAM , AL, US) observed 1053 UTC 14 August 2013 Temperature: 23.3°C (74°F) Dewpoint: 22.2°C (72°F) [RH = 94%] Pressure (altimeter): 29.99 inches Hg (1015.7 mb) [Sea-level pressure: 1014.6 mb] Winds: from the N (10 degrees) at 3 MPH (3 knots; 1.6 m/s) Visibility: 10 or more miles (16+ km) Ceiling: 7000 feet AGL Clouds: overcast cloud deck at 7000 feet AGL Weather: no significant weather observed at this time The picture makes it appear that the ground slopes up from the runway back towards the flight path/where the picture was taken. Is this accurate or an illusion ? I answered this at the top of the page Yea...got to get back to the rest of the thread and saw that. Ground rising towards flighpath, rapid decent towards a realitivley short runway, vis/GPS approach at night...............CFIT wouldn't be totally shocking. Amature speculation aside RIP to the flight crew Spot on This. There used to be houses dotted all over that hillside until the airport authority bought them up in the mid eighties. I wish they would cut that hill down into a slope leading to the runway. |
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Posted: 8/14/2013 3:31:03 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: material things are just that.....material Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I know folks are going to be upset at the loss of their material goods they've been eagerly anticipating, but there are at least two families out there who's worlds were turned upside down from this event. The loss of a husband, father, or son isn't something that can be easily adjusted to, if ever. Sad. material things are just that.....material |
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Posted: 8/14/2013 3:40:41 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: ask for prayers, good friend lost his wife in this crash... SCF.. RIP angel wings now |
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Posted: 8/14/2013 3:41:34 PM EDT
[#8]
This is why you don't build planes out of door tags.
On a serious note, why isn't this on any major news? They're all covering the shit in Egypt but I haven't seen a word about this. |
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Posted: 8/14/2013 3:50:15 PM EDT
[#9]
HLN this morning was covering it. horrible broadcasting but at least it was on.
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Posted: 8/14/2013 4:08:05 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Me thinks CFIT. The approach to 18 is very visually misleading. Furthermore there is no ILS to that runway. PAPI's are there though. A heavy pilot would be tempted to take a lower than normal glidepath to attempt to land on "brick-one" due to it being a shorter runway. All of this is purely speculation on my part, however I am very familiar with KBHM... The PAPI works, will spot you on the numbers every time. The optical illusion is a problem for flatlanders and low time pilots, these guys were neither. There are many airports around with screwy approaches, that is why training and experience is mandated for these jobs. The high decent rate just prior sounds odd, if the boxes didn't burn up, we will know soon enough. These things are mostly caused by a chain of events, not one event. |
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Posted: 8/14/2013 4:16:49 PM EDT
[#11]
I read about it this morning, I grew up in B'ham and have been in and out of that airport many times.
I went to school about one mile from the airport several years ago. The airport bought up several houses to have a clear path to the runway a long time ago. If those houses had still been around this would have been much worse. Planes coming in for a landing from the NE come in right over the homes. |
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Posted: 8/14/2013 4:46:32 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
These things are mostly caused by a chain of events, not one event. And usually it is pilot error. |
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Posted: 8/14/2013 4:58:15 PM EDT
[#13]
My dad probably bought that jet. He did the acceptance testing in France of the Airbuses for several years for UPS--flew 24 of them back over.
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Posted: 8/14/2013 5:14:26 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The PAPI works, will spot you on the numbers every time. The optical illusion is a problem for flatlanders and low time pilots, these guys were neither. There are many airports around with screwy approaches, that is why training and experience is mandated for these jobs. The high decent rate just prior sounds odd, if the boxes didn't burn up, we will know soon enough. These things are mostly caused by a chain of events, not one event. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Me thinks CFIT. The approach to 18 is very visually misleading. Furthermore there is no ILS to that runway. PAPI's are there though. A heavy pilot would be tempted to take a lower than normal glidepath to attempt to land on "brick-one" due to it being a shorter runway. All of this is purely speculation on my part, however I am very familiar with KBHM... The PAPI works, will spot you on the numbers every time. The optical illusion is a problem for flatlanders and low time pilots, these guys were neither. There are many airports around with screwy approaches, that is why training and experience is mandated for these jobs. The high decent rate just prior sounds odd, if the boxes didn't burn up, we will know soon enough. These things are mostly caused by a chain of events, not one event. Yes they work great "In Theory" then comes the human factor. I'll say again. Pure speculation and Monday morning QB'ing going on here. When the AIB comes out we will know. |
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Posted: 8/14/2013 5:22:36 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'll say again. Pure speculation and Monday morning QB'ing going on here. When the AIB comes out we will know. Odds are we will not learn anything new out of this. |
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Posted: 8/14/2013 5:39:32 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Read up on the Gimli Glider. That was coasting on fumes in a 767. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Fuel issue is what I heard. I don't know shit about aviation I do know there is no such thing as coasting on fumes in a 767. Read up on the Gimli Glider. That was coasting on fumes in a 767. |
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Posted: 8/14/2013 5:54:09 PM EDT
[#17]
I've only been in on the 36, and that was rotary wing under VFR so no idea about the 18, but I from what I know from guys in my class that were cargo guys (trying to build hours to go stepup from small regionals to bigger commercial stuff) a lot of these guys get pretty haggard flying the odd hours even when they are well rested, my lower hour SWAG is that with a little spatial/optical illusion leading to CFIT.
For everyone wondering about the packages found this on reddit: 
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Posted: 8/14/2013 5:57:22 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: My dad probably bought that jet. He did the acceptance testing in France of the Airbuses for several years for UPS--flew 24 of them back over. I will ask the Head of UPS up here next time I see him.
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Posted: 8/14/2013 6:06:58 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Damn. My condolences to the family Quote HistoryQuoted:
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ask for prayers, good friend lost his wife in this crash... SCF.. RIP angel wings now appreciate it, he is going to need all the support he can get. small town BS added with the million news vans and talking heads posted up ready to be blood suckers |
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Posted: 8/14/2013 8:05:34 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: appreciate it, he is going to need all the support he can get. small town BS added with the million news vans and talking heads posted up ready to be blood suckers Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: ask for prayers, good friend lost his wife in this crash... SCF.. RIP angel wings now appreciate it, he is going to need all the support he can get. small town BS added with the million news vans and talking heads posted up ready to be blood suckers And I thought I was having a bad day.
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Posted: 8/15/2013 12:37:49 AM EDT
[#21]
any updates?
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Posted: 8/15/2013 3:36:59 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Odds are we will not learn anything new out of this. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I'll say again. Pure speculation and Monday morning QB'ing going on here. When the AIB comes out we will know. Odds are we will not learn anything new out of this. Care to expound on this? |
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Posted: 8/15/2013 4:48:22 AM EDT
[#23]
Radio this morning said it was a fire on the plane.
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Posted: 8/15/2013 4:50:01 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Care to expound on this? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I'll say again. Pure speculation and Monday morning QB'ing going on here. When the AIB comes out we will know. Odds are we will not learn anything new out of this. Care to expound on this? Including GA accidents, most aircraft crashes are due to pilot error and my opinion is that the vast majority of errors are just repeats. The notion that we have a never experienced failure mode that could not have been anticipated or dealt with properly has a low probability. This does not mean that the crew were at fault. If there was a fire on-board or some other airframe related failure that was not easily dealt with, then they may have been doomed. Think of the Sioux City DC-10 event, some t-tailed aircraft (DC-9?) over the Pacific years ago or even the Hudson river ditching, the outcome may be outside the control of the pilots or luck/superior skill save the day. |
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Posted: 8/15/2013 7:38:38 AM EDT
[#25]
Ah I see what you're saying. Unfortunately this is true.
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Posted: 8/15/2013 3:28:11 PM EDT
[#26]
The black boxes have been recovered.
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Posted: 8/15/2013 3:47:41 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Radio this morning said it was a fire on the plane. That wouldn't surprise me at all. |
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Posted: 8/15/2013 3:52:41 PM EDT
[#28]
If the black boxes are useable the NTSB already has a 90% sure decision on the cause.
Id like to think fire. I bashed the shit out of the Korean 777 crew for fucking up a visual. Id like to think a well trained UPS crew didn't do the same. As a professional pilot, however, I can say that shit happens. Good crews can make deadly mistakes. |
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Posted: 8/15/2013 3:58:22 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
History says otherwise. Google "Gimli glider" and learn from historical fact. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Fuel issue is what I heard. I don't know shit about aviation I do know there is no such thing as coasting on fumes in a 767. No chance History says otherwise. Google "Gimli glider" and learn from historical fact. The appropriate term would be "turned into a glider." There's another story of a passenger jet over the middle of the Atlantic where the pilot/co-pilot didn't trust their instruments, and due to a bad install of an engine component, pumped all their fuel out at 30k feet and glided into Iceland (think it was Iceland) and barely survived the landing. The gimli gliders airframe was repaired on location, flown out and continued service till just recently and was retired. That's a Boeing for ya. |
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Posted: 8/15/2013 4:58:54 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The appropriate term would be "turned into a glider." There's another story of a passenger jet over the middle of the Atlantic where the pilot/co-pilot didn't trust their instruments, and due to a bad install of an engine component, pumped all their fuel out at 30k feet and glided into Iceland (think it was Iceland) and barely survived the landing. The gimli gliders airframe was repaired on location, flown out and continued service till just recently and was retired. That's a Boeing for ya. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Fuel issue is what I heard. I don't know shit about aviation I do know there is no such thing as coasting on fumes in a 767. No chance History says otherwise. Google "Gimli glider" and learn from historical fact. The appropriate term would be "turned into a glider." There's another story of a passenger jet over the middle of the Atlantic where the pilot/co-pilot didn't trust their instruments, and due to a bad install of an engine component, pumped all their fuel out at 30k feet and glided into Iceland (think it was Iceland) and barely survived the landing. The gimli gliders airframe was repaired on location, flown out and continued service till just recently and was retired. That's a Boeing for ya. http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1520343_UPS_plane_crash_in_Birmingham_Alabama.html&page=3&anc=42163176#i42163176 I posted both on Page 3. The one over the Atlantic was an A330 which landed in the Azores. |
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Posted: 8/15/2013 5:16:13 PM EDT
[#31]
I swear not too long ago there was an aviation related show where one of the people they were talking to was a fairly young woman that was a captain for UPS. Anyone else remember this? Wonder if the same woman?
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Posted: 8/15/2013 5:37:16 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I swear not too long ago there was an aviation related show where one of the people they were talking to was a fairly young woman that was a captain for UPS. Anyone else remember this? Wonder if the same woman? I vaguely remember a show like that; wasn't she a prior Air Force or Navy pilot? |
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Posted: 8/15/2013 5:43:24 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I vaguely remember a show like that; wasn't she a prior Air Force or Navy pilot? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I swear not too long ago there was an aviation related show where one of the people they were talking to was a fairly young woman that was a captain for UPS. Anyone else remember this? Wonder if the same woman? I vaguely remember a show like that; wasn't she a prior Air Force or Navy pilot? Not sure. Had been flying ever since she was a kid and her dad was a pilot IIRC. Drives me nuts that I cannot recall what show it was. |
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Posted: 8/15/2013 5:49:21 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If the black boxes are useable the NTSB already has a 90% sure decision on the cause. Id like to think fire. I bashed the shit out of the Korean 777 crew for fucking up a visual. Id like to think a well trained UPS crew didn't do the same. As a professional pilot, however, I can say that shit happens. Good crews can make deadly mistakes. No fire or IFE reported. 24 was closed at the time they arrived which would lead them to land on 18. AC was a 23 year vet. Co had been flying since 1990. Weather was reported OVC at 070 but actual conditions were worse. I think CFIT. They had a rushed decent and were expecting 24 then found out it was closed leading them to be unprepared for the approach to the other Rwy. There are a ton of rumors that I have heard that just aren't true. |
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Posted: 8/15/2013 8:17:04 PM EDT
[#35]
I live 5 miles northwest of the crash site. I am very familiar with the terrain right there on that hill above the runway. I was there today at lunch. When the plane got to the top of the hill, they must have misjudged the transition from the sort of level hill top approach, to going down the hill, which is the "crash field", and clipped the trees. That had to scrub off some speed, at just the wrong time, maybe even pitched the nose down, right into about a 40 foot tall hill. When everything is right your altitude above the ground going down that hill wouldn't change as you approached the beginning of the runway, that may be part of why ILS might not work. Also they would have been dealing with flat light conditions at best, which doesn't help in that transition over the hill top. The runway is on flat level ground by the way. Landing lights might have helped with spatial orientation or not, but BHM is too cheap to install them, from what I hear. BTW I heard from a pretty reliable USPS source that NTSB told them that the pilots were still strapped in on impact, and it wasn't pretty. I can't even imagine how scared they must have been at the end. I can only hope that it was instantaneous and painless. I am so sad for them and their families. They did a heroes job not hitting those houses at the top of the hill. The wing tip couldn't have been more than 50 feet away from the house that I looked at today with the top 10 feet sheared off the tree beside their driveway.
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Posted: 8/15/2013 8:23:05 PM EDT
[#36]
That all checks with what I've heard and my experience here.
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Posted: 8/15/2013 10:53:55 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If the black boxes are useable the NTSB already has a 90% sure decision on the cause. Id like to think fire. I bashed the shit out of the Korean 777 crew for fucking up a visual. Id like to think a well trained UPS crew didn't do the same. As a professional pilot, however, I can say that shit happens. Good crews can make deadly mistakes. |
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Posted: 8/16/2013 12:04:39 AM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
[SNIP] This, also on top of that such a short flight and depending on the load of cargo, the A-300 Im assuming would have needed at least 18,000- 20,000 lbs. of fuel to be in balance. Even the Concorde would not burn that much fuel in an hour. Quote HistoryQuoted:
[SNIP] This, also on top of that such a short flight and depending on the load of cargo, the A-300 Im assuming would have needed at least 18,000- 20,000 lbs. of fuel to be in balance. Even the Concorde would not burn that much fuel in an hour. There is a story of a 747 fully fueled that took off from I think NY headed for Paris and the engines became fuel starved due to FOD in the tanks. They turned around and landed on RAT power only. So it is possible to have fuel starvation and full fuel tanks. No clue if that applies here. Quoted:
ask for prayers, good friend lost his wife in this crash... SCF.. RIP angel wings now Just saw this. My condolences.
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Posted: 8/16/2013 2:59:24 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Rumors keep flying - Facebook seems to think 40 houses were hit. Ahhhh... Damn
John |
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Posted: 8/16/2013 3:50:43 AM EDT
[#40]
Have they released the name of the other pilot yet?
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Posted: 8/16/2013 3:58:58 AM EDT
[#41]
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Posted: 8/16/2013 12:35:10 PM EDT
[#42]
A USA Today article stated that there are no indications of a fire onboard prior to impacting the ground (NTSB statement). That is contrary to some witness reports which can be erroneous.
Report: Story of alleged pre-impact fire "People living near the airfield reported seeing flames coming from the plane and hearing its engines struggle in the final moments before impact. "It was on fire before it hit," said Jerome Sanders, who lives directly across from the runway." If the crash was at 547 AM EDT (0947 Z or 447 CDT local time) then the weather info was: METAR KBHM 140953Z 34004KT 10SM FEW011 BKN035 OVC075 23/22 A2997 RMK AO2 SLP141 T02330222= The 10SM suggests that fog was not a factor. A broken layer at 3500 should not have been a problem. Then we have the reports that runway 24 was closed. Maybe this meant runway 6/24. Does anyone have archival NOTAMs that would show that runway 6/24 was not useable at 547 AM EDT? |
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Posted: 8/16/2013 2:34:35 PM EDT
[#43]
http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/ntsb-ups-pilots-warnings-moments-crash-19986667
Federal investigators say flight recorders show that pilots of a UPS plane that crashed in Birmingham received warnings about their rate of descent moments before impact. National Transportation Safety Board member Robert Sumwalt told reporters Friday that a data recorder captured the first of two audible warnings in the cockpit before impact. Sumwalt says the warnings indicated the A300 cargo plane was descending at a rate outside normal parameters given its altitude. |
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Posted: 8/16/2013 2:38:23 PM EDT
[#44]
Instrumentation problem maybe? The plane was descending faster than what was indicated in the cockpit? Just spitballing.
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Posted: 8/16/2013 3:10:39 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Instrumentation problem maybe? The plane was descending faster than what was indicated in the cockpit? Just spitballing. More than likely set up a descent rate they couldn't recover from.
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Posted: 8/16/2013 3:16:52 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
More than likely set up a descent rate they couldn't recover from. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Instrumentation problem maybe? The plane was descending faster than what was indicated in the cockpit? Just spitballing. More than likely set up a descent rate they couldn't recover from. Perhaps, but if the info from flightaware is verified they did not have excessive descent rates near the end. They were obviously too low for their position relative to the runway. 05:45AM 33.6644 -86.7469 178° South 248 285 2,500 -420 Descending Atlanta Center 05:46AM 33.6206 -86.7456 178° South 200 230 1,800 -540 Descending Atlanta Center 05:47AM 33.5681 -86.7539 188° South 191 220 1,500 -300 Descending Atlanta Center The descent rates are the third column from the right (-420, -540 and -300...feet per minute assumed as the units) |
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Posted: 8/16/2013 3:17:24 PM EDT
[#47]
Horrible way to go
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Posted: 8/18/2013 8:14:09 AM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
A USA Today article stated that there are no indications of a fire onboard prior to impacting the ground (NTSB statement). That is contrary to some witness reports which can be erroneous. Report: Story of alleged pre-impact fire "People living near the airfield reported seeing flames coming from the plane and hearing its engines struggle in the final moments before impact. "It was on fire before it hit," said Jerome Sanders, who lives directly across from the runway." If the crash was at 547 AM EDT (0947 Z) then the weather info was: METAR KBHM 140953Z 34004KT 10SM FEW011 BKN035 OVC075 23/22 A2997 RMK AO2 SLP141 T02330222= The 10SM suggests that fog was not a factor. A broken layer at 3500 should not have been a problem. Then we have the reports that runway 24 was closed. Maybe this meant runway 6/24. Does anyone have archival NOTAMs that would show that runway 6/24 was not useable at 547 AM EDT? The flames (if actually) seen were probably FOD induced. The plane hit the tops of several trees at the top of the hill. I dont think the weather was ACTUALLY 10sm vis. On my way to work at 0700 it was pretty foggy. Rwy 24/6 was closed from 2300-0500L I believe. |
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Posted: 8/18/2013 1:32:53 PM EDT
[#49]
The pilots of a United Parcel Service Inc. (UPS) freighter killed when the plane crashed in Alabama got a warning they were descending too quickly seconds before impact, according to investigators.
A cockpit alert announced “sink rate, sink rate” 7 seconds before the first sounds of impact are heard on the plane’s recorders, Robert Sumwalt, a member of U.S. National Transportation Safety Board, said yesterday at a briefing in Birmingham. |
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Posted: 8/18/2013 1:47:27 PM EDT
[#50]
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324139404579019383681651294.html
"Investigators Focus on Pilot Procedures in UPS Jet Crash Federal investigators indicated they increasingly were looking into pilot training and landing procedures, rather than airplane malfunctions, to unravel Wednesday's crash of a United Parcel Service Inc. UPS +0.10% cargo jet. In the last on-site press briefing from the Birmingham, Ala., accident scene, the National Transportation Safety Board gave its strongest signal yet that experts hadn't discovered problems with the Airbus A300's engines, automated flight-controls or other onboard systems. .... The NTSB had said that the cockpit-voice recorder revealed that one of the pilots said the runway was "in sight," barely four seconds before the first sounds of impact." I think we can eliminate the on-board fire scenario...
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