Site Notices
8/29/2014 4:55:51 PM
Author
Message
Timco
Boiler guy
Offline
Posts: 14001
Feedback: 100% (1)
Posted: 6/4/2013 8:57:03 AM
[Last Edit: 6/4/2013 8:58:48 AM by Timco]
So I'm in the business. Several jobs I look at and bid on have "improved asbestos" wrap, which is cardboard pipe insulation with asbestos coated over it and wrapped in cloth wrap. That's on the straight runs. The elbows and fittings have packed, fibrous asbestos around them which is more the problem areas because they move and fibers are exposed.

So I'm doing a major upgrade to my own historic home. All heating pipes are very well insulated in this stuff. All old pipes go (they hang just over head height) and new copper. I go from 2" black pipe to 1" copper. Over the years I've had one particular company do all my abatement. After seeking several bids on jobs, some are $6k and some are $1200 for the same job!!!! So the "EPA Certified" company comes out. If its under a certain poundage or feet of pipe, no permit or EPA involvement, the stuff is just removed. And what's the big high-tech secret???? A squirt bottle, dust masks, and black trash bags. Seems access to the proper disposal site is the only real issue.

Bottom line, it's over a grand to have pipe wrap removed and hauled off by a nasty crew of "Hispanic gentlemen" and have them see all your gun area and collection....

In before anyone says mesothelioma over one small job.......

ETA...wasn't there a Sopranos episode where Tony saved HUGE money by just dumping it in any local lake??? (I kid, I kid)
'Cause you know the Germans make good stuff!
USPcompact
Member
Offline
Posts: 8355
Feedback: 100% (8)
Link To This Post
Posted: 6/4/2013 9:00:25 AM
Pales in comparison to lead abatement.

Originally Posted By mikenmaryland:

this coming from someone with bush in the avatar..lol
Timco
Boiler guy
Offline
Posts: 14002
Feedback: 100% (1)
Link To This Post
Posted: 6/4/2013 9:01:09 AM
Originally Posted By USPcompact:
Pales in comparison to lead abatement.



Until you need it removed.....
'Cause you know the Germans make good stuff!
rsj
Member
Offline
Posts: 318
Feedback: 0% (0)
Link To This Post
Posted: 6/4/2013 9:03:06 AM
So many Fox News commercials. So little time.
WinstonSmith
Taxidea Taxus
Offline
Posts: 30961
Feedback: 100% (2)
Link To This Post
Posted: 6/4/2013 9:03:32 AM
Yea, I thought it was a fucking scam too. Then I got trained and certified. Then I watched a guy die from meso.

I'm not so sure it's a scam anymore. Not the cancer part. Not the hazard. Sure, the way the government handles it is a fucking clown school, but that's the way they handle everything.
Timco
Boiler guy
Offline
Posts: 14003
Feedback: 100% (1)
Link To This Post
Posted: 6/4/2013 9:08:02 AM
Originally Posted By WinstonSmith:
Yea, I thought it was a fucking scam too. Then I got trained and certified. Then I watched a guy die from meso.

I'm not so sure it's a scam anymore. Not the cancer part. Not the hazard. Sure, the way the government handles it is a fucking clown school, but that's the way they handle everything.


Oh, I agree that long term exposure will do major harm, but a mask and a squirt bottle and a trash bag is something I am not allowed to do as the owner?? I can't just call and have it picked up?????

The boiler isn't even a snow man. Just the pipes.
'Cause you know the Germans make good stuff!
MarkHatfield
Online
Posts: 577
Feedback: 0% (0)
Link To This Post
Posted: 6/4/2013 9:08:52 AM
I was briefly a Safety Director for a removal company around 25 years. Even then finding places for legit disposal was a problem. And, Yeah, if you're doing it legally, it aint cheap.
WinstonSmith
Taxidea Taxus
Offline
Posts: 30962
Feedback: 100% (2)
Link To This Post
Posted: 6/4/2013 9:10:38 AM
Originally Posted By Timco:
Originally Posted By WinstonSmith:
Yea, I thought it was a fucking scam too. Then I got trained and certified. Then I watched a guy die from meso.

I'm not so sure it's a scam anymore. Not the cancer part. Not the hazard. Sure, the way the government handles it is a fucking clown school, but that's the way they handle everything.


Oh, I agree that long term exposure will do major harm, but a mask and a squirt bottle and a trash bag is something I am not allowed to do as the owner?? I can't just call and have it picked up?????

The boiler isn't even a snow man. Just the pipes.


It's not even "long term exposure". Every fiber you inhale is a ticket to the lottery. More exposure just buys you more tickets.

I don't recall the exact regulations, but I believe a homeowner could do some abatement themselves. It's been long enough that I'm not confident saying either way though.
dubBinSEA
stay fresh till death
Offline
Posts: 6272
Feedback: 0% (0)
Link To This Post
Posted: 6/4/2013 9:11:31 AM


pretty sure the rules (NESHAPS, ASHERA, and AHERA) don't apply to single family homes.

No rules = do what the fuck you want.......



Abate yourself
pilotman
My parrot is smarter than your honor student
NRA
Offline
Posts: 5818
Feedback: 100% (28)
Link To This Post
Posted: 6/4/2013 9:22:02 AM
As has been said, check your local laws, you can probably DIY.

In VA, it must be disposed of at a landfill permitted to accept asbestos (not all of them are.). They typically dig a hole in the waste and cover it immediately.
Want to join the NRA? Don't care about getting a magazine? Join the NRA with an Associate Membership for $10!!!
https://membership.nrahq.org/forms/signup.asp
Click "other memberships" tab
USPcompact
Member
Offline
Posts: 8357
Feedback: 100% (8)
Link To This Post
Posted: 6/4/2013 9:25:04 AM
Originally Posted By Timco:
Originally Posted By USPcompact:
Pales in comparison to lead abatement.



Until you need it removed.....


The problem with lead is that it's on EVERY old house. Want an old house scraped and painted? Bend over.

Originally Posted By mikenmaryland:

this coming from someone with bush in the avatar..lol
Shott8283
Muscle Grinding Cash Badger
Military
Offline
Posts: 7411
Feedback: 100% (31)
Link To This Post
Posted: 6/4/2013 9:27:13 AM
just hold your breath and toss that shit in the trash.. easy peasy
Originally Posted By Colonel_Angus: I can taste colors after reading that abortion
JasonK94Z
Offline
Posts: 486
Feedback: 0% (0)
Link To This Post
Posted: 6/4/2013 9:30:07 AM
My name is Doug, and I have mesothelioma
ScopeScar
Member
Offline
Posts: 4807
Feedback: 0% (0)
Link To This Post
Posted: 6/4/2013 9:30:33 AM
[Last Edit: 6/4/2013 9:31:08 AM by ScopeScar]
If I ever got an old house, I'd do it all myself, in the dead of night if necessary.

Total scam in the US economy. Unnecessary, the asbestos "problem" is 99.4% the fabrication of tort lawyers. A prime example of why we need two changes to the legal system: 1. loser pays, 2. judges who disallow non-scientific testimony (in their arbitray but usually balanced and learned opinions).
piccolo
Grand Poobah
Offline
Posts: 29375
Feedback: 100% (8)
Link To This Post
Posted: 6/4/2013 9:30:55 AM
I had asbestos siding. I simply wore a mask, took it down, bagged it up and took it to the dump. The people there accepted it and I think the cost was an extra $10. I had to put it in a separate dumpster.

http://piccoloshash.blogspot.com/2009/12/my-feminine-side-blog-stays-pink.html
----------------------------------------

Vote "YES" on 'NO'!

For Captain Erick Foster, Wexford, PA KIA 29 Aug, 07.
Rangers lead the way.
SnowboundinNH
Viurem lliures o morirem
NRAMilitary
Online
Posts: 3998
Feedback: 0% (0)
Link To This Post
Posted: 6/4/2013 9:35:00 AM
I used to do asbestos/lead abatement.

I had no problem pulling up some old asbestos floor tiles in my basement, but anything friable I wouldn't want to do without a respirator and neg air machine.

They're not spraying water, they're spraying a liquid that bonds with the airborne fibers so they can be removed.

The permits, insurance, and disposal aren't cheap. Ironically it just goes to the dump, but the bags have to be marked.

Hidden costs include bribing the inspectors to look the other way, paying off the GC's to have advance information about bids submitted by competitors, paying illegals to take drug tests for your workers because they're all fucked up on meth, paying for everything they destroy or steal (even though the jobs are insured you can only file so many claims before the policies become unaffordable), paying off union bosses so they won't stage walkouts or sabotage the job, providing pay checks to the long list of union goons who you'll never see but are "on the job", etc, etc, etc...

Sorry, got distracted. Being a foreman sucked.

Anyway......there are carcinogens in everything you eat, drink, and breathe. Why add to the long list of things that'll fuck you up without taking a little precaution?
"Live free or Die: Death is not the worst of evils." - Gen. John Stark



"I'm not anti-social, I just haven't found anybody worth talking to......."
lostnswv
Common Sense is the ultimate superpower.
Offline
Posts: 10969
Feedback: 100% (4)
Link To This Post
Posted: 6/4/2013 9:35:47 AM
Dude, improperly done job and you and your family will be breathing that shit for years.

PS I was under the impression if not messed with and the insulation was in good condition it could be left in place. The problem being if someone screwed with it and or if the wrap is falling apart it has to go and be done by a properly licensed crew using the required abatement procedures.
"When cities start using their, as you succinctly put it, "monopoly power on force" to stop a business from setting up shop in their city because of an opinion? Bet your ass I care. ..." Speedie
Ibn_Huq
Member
Online
Posts: 753
Feedback: 0% (0)
Link To This Post
Posted: 6/4/2013 9:36:56 AM
[Last Edit: 6/4/2013 9:39:38 AM by Ibn_Huq]
Contact the local EPA public communications office. They will give you the field instructions and authorized disposal site.

At least they would fifteen years ago. We had our flooring contractors piece crews enabled to do Vinyl Asbestos Tile abatement on a large renovation just by simply following the EPA provided instruction materials.

No certs were necessary then.

Taking down a boiler room required more controls and we hire pros for that.

Check up on it though
These are the useful idiots you are looking for
Doppleganger871
Pork Roll, Egg & Cheese.
Offline
Posts: 3058
Feedback: 0% (0)
Link To This Post
Posted: 6/4/2013 9:38:56 AM
As long as you're not breathing in the dust, I'd leave it. Same with asbestos shingles on a house. Our house had them for 90% of the time I was living in it (as a kid), and I never ate, licked, scraped, chewed, or drooled on them. They just sat there, painted, keeping the house from catching on fire from a direct fireworks hit.

"I don't like repeat offenders. I like dead offenders." - The Nuge
"I've seen freedom, smelled its sweet perfume. And then I had to drive back home." - Me
m193
Offline
Posts: 10093
Feedback: 100% (99)
Link To This Post
Posted: 6/4/2013 9:52:11 AM
DIY. Place in heavy trash bags and haul it to the landfill.
Timco
Boiler guy
Offline
Posts: 14005
Feedback: 100% (1)
Link To This Post
Posted: 6/4/2013 9:55:21 AM
Originally Posted By Doppleganger871:
As long as you're not breathing in the dust, I'd leave it. Same with asbestos shingles on a house. Our house had them for 90% of the time I was living in it (as a kid), and I never ate, licked, scraped, chewed, or drooled on them. They just sat there, painted, keeping the house from catching on fire from a direct fireworks hit.



I have to remove all the old black iron pipes to clean up the ceilings in the basement and re- zone the back of the house. Everything in front stays.
'Cause you know the Germans make good stuff!
camarojsmith
Member
Offline
Posts: 2328
Feedback: 100% (14)
Link To This Post
Posted: 6/4/2013 10:17:33 AM
I do asbestos abatement as a second job. If done properly, there is a lot more to it than just throwing it in a bag.

For friable material you should set up a containment with negative air and a three chamber decontamination. All material needs to be in (2) 6 mil poly bags and tagged with your name and location. The entire containment needs cleaned or sprayed with a lock down then air samples get sent to the lab to determine if the air is "clean". Once you take the material to the dump it still belongs to you. The dump never owns your asbestos.

Materials are not cheap. You have suits, respirators, surfactant, hepa filters, lots and lots of poly, tape and glue. You have to re-certify every year. Plus you have to pay the dump.
ScottsGT
Member
Offline
Posts: 4012
Feedback: 100% (4)
Link To This Post
Posted: 6/4/2013 10:18:56 AM
Oh man, hot topic at work here! We got burned when a "low bid" contractor was hired to renovate the University's Presidents House. Which included abatement. A few years later some univ. maint guys crawled under the house to do some work and discovered that the contractor simply dumped all the asbestos in the crawl space.
So in typical university fashion, they hired asbestos crews that go around and oversee any and all abatements for a CYA to keep Dept of Health and Env. Control from hitting us with 6 figure fines. Any work done now, even to include hanging a damned picture on the wall, we have to call in testing and sampling guys. If you are going to penetrate sheetrock, the old Spackle can have asbestos as binders mixed in.
It has come as an advantage to us though. We always get some Dean or higher up that thinks they should not have to wait in line for us to do some kind of install they want done. they run to one of the VP's and ask for a favor and get their way.
Two can play this game. We do all the leg work, order process, wait 6 to 8 weeks for state purchasing to find the highest price they can and just before we go in to do the work we ask them for their asbestos survey yea! there's another 3 to 4 week wait!
Hell, I've been waiting 6 weeks just to get two door ways cut into a wall, and this is going through proper channels.
Timco
Boiler guy
Offline
Posts: 14008
Feedback: 100% (1)
Link To This Post
Posted: 6/4/2013 10:21:50 AM
Originally Posted By camarojsmith:
I do asbestos abatement as a second job. If done properly, there is a lot more to it than just throwing it in a bag.

For friable material you should set up a containment with negative air and a three chamber decontamination. All material needs to be in (2) 6 mil poly bags and tagged with your name and location. The entire containment needs cleaned or sprayed with a lock down then air samples get sent to the lab to determine if the air is "clean". Once you take the material to the dump it still belongs to you. The dump never owns your asbestos.

Materials are not cheap. You have suits, respirators, surfactant, hepa filters, lots and lots of poly, tape and glue. You have to re-certify every year. Plus you have to pay the dump.


Over a certain amount of feet or pounds here. Otherwise it's messicans in jeans and T shirt with dust mask. Zero contain. Maybe a fan drawing out.
'Cause you know the Germans make good stuff!
camarojsmith
Member
Offline
Posts: 2329
Feedback: 100% (14)
Link To This Post
Posted: 6/4/2013 10:26:27 AM
Originally Posted By Timco:
Originally Posted By camarojsmith:
I do asbestos abatement as a second job. If done properly, there is a lot more to it than just throwing it in a bag.

For friable material you should set up a containment with negative air and a three chamber decontamination. All material needs to be in (2) 6 mil poly bags and tagged with your name and location. The entire containment needs cleaned or sprayed with a lock down then air samples get sent to the lab to determine if the air is "clean". Once you take the material to the dump it still belongs to you. The dump never owns your asbestos.

Materials are not cheap. You have suits, respirators, surfactant, hepa filters, lots and lots of poly, tape and glue. You have to re-certify every year. Plus you have to pay the dump.


Over a certain amount of feet or pounds here. Otherwise it's messicans in jeans and T shirt with dust mask. Zero contain. Maybe a fan drawing out.


Wow. Yeah if it's a small amount we use glove bags. I still wear the correct respirator and dispose of it properly.
WinstonSmith
Taxidea Taxus
Offline
Posts: 30964
Feedback: 100% (2)
Link To This Post
Posted: 6/4/2013 11:39:10 AM
Originally Posted By Timco:
Originally Posted By camarojsmith:
I do asbestos abatement as a second job. If done properly, there is a lot more to it than just throwing it in a bag.

For friable material you should set up a containment with negative air and a three chamber decontamination. All material needs to be in (2) 6 mil poly bags and tagged with your name and location. The entire containment needs cleaned or sprayed with a lock down then air samples get sent to the lab to determine if the air is "clean". Once you take the material to the dump it still belongs to you. The dump never owns your asbestos.

Materials are not cheap. You have suits, respirators, surfactant, hepa filters, lots and lots of poly, tape and glue. You have to re-certify every year. Plus you have to pay the dump.


Over a certain amount of feet or pounds here. Otherwise it's messicans in jeans and T shirt with dust mask. Zero contain. Maybe a fan drawing out.


I'm pretty sure your here and his here are the same here. It's federal, not state. From what I do remember about my training (and there's no fog on this part), there's no way a couple messicans in street clothes are doing a proper legal abatement.
Timco
Boiler guy
Offline
Posts: 14011
Feedback: 100% (1)
Link To This Post
Posted: 6/4/2013 12:07:53 PM
Originally Posted By WinstonSmith:
Originally Posted By Timco:
Originally Posted By camarojsmith:
I do asbestos abatement as a second job. If done properly, there is a lot more to it than just throwing it in a bag.

For friable material you should set up a containment with negative air and a three chamber decontamination. All material needs to be in (2) 6 mil poly bags and tagged with your name and location. The entire containment needs cleaned or sprayed with a lock down then air samples get sent to the lab to determine if the air is "clean". Once you take the material to the dump it still belongs to you. The dump never owns your asbestos.

Materials are not cheap. You have suits, respirators, surfactant, hepa filters, lots and lots of poly, tape and glue. You have to re-certify every year. Plus you have to pay the dump.


Over a certain amount of feet or pounds here. Otherwise it's messicans in jeans and T shirt with dust mask. Zero contain. Maybe a fan drawing out.


I'm pretty sure your here and his here are the same here. It's federal, not state. From what I do remember about my training (and there's no fog on this part), there's no way a couple messicans in street clothes are doing a proper legal abatement.


I'll call and ask. Now I'm curious. I was specifically told by more than one company that no permit or EPA notice was required and I watched them do the work. Actually, I do recall a piece of plastic over the basement stairwell door they cut a slit in and that job was a huge boiler as well. This is 80' total of straight pipe and 6 elbows. Very little packed stuff. The pipe wrap that is not fiberglass is cardboard and seems dipped in a solution prior to wrapping. Not dusty except for the tops of the pipes from time and laundry in that room.
'Cause you know the Germans make good stuff!
hondaciv
5-4
Offline
Posts: 25082
Feedback: 100% (58)
Link To This Post
Posted: 6/4/2013 12:11:53 PM
If you would hIt, you must acquit. ~EvanWilliams
WinstonSmith
Taxidea Taxus
Offline
Posts: 30967
Feedback: 100% (2)
Link To This Post
Posted: 6/4/2013 3:36:58 PM
Originally Posted By Timco:
Originally Posted By WinstonSmith:
Originally Posted By Timco:
Originally Posted By camarojsmith:
I do asbestos abatement as a second job. If done properly, there is a lot more to it than just throwing it in a bag.

For friable material you should set up a containment with negative air and a three chamber decontamination. All material needs to be in (2) 6 mil poly bags and tagged with your name and location. The entire containment needs cleaned or sprayed with a lock down then air samples get sent to the lab to determine if the air is "clean". Once you take the material to the dump it still belongs to you. The dump never owns your asbestos.

Materials are not cheap. You have suits, respirators, surfactant, hepa filters, lots and lots of poly, tape and glue. You have to re-certify every year. Plus you have to pay the dump.


Over a certain amount of feet or pounds here. Otherwise it's messicans in jeans and T shirt with dust mask. Zero contain. Maybe a fan drawing out.


I'm pretty sure your here and his here are the same here. It's federal, not state. From what I do remember about my training (and there's no fog on this part), there's no way a couple messicans in street clothes are doing a proper legal abatement.


I'll call and ask. Now I'm curious. I was specifically told by more than one company that no permit or EPA notice was required and I watched them do the work. Actually, I do recall a piece of plastic over the basement stairwell door they cut a slit in and that job was a huge boiler as well. This is 80' total of straight pipe and 6 elbows. Very little packed stuff. The pipe wrap that is not fiberglass is cardboard and seems dipped in a solution prior to wrapping. Not dusty except for the tops of the pipes from time and laundry in that room.


I really don't know anything about the permits or notice. I just know about the abatement process. When you crack into the stuff, you need to be suited up properly, and you need to control the release. There needs to be air sampling throughout. I can't remember whether negative pressure containment is required past a certain size job, but I can tell you with no question that your 80' of pipe and half dozen elbows would exceed my rated allowable job size significantly. I was certified "Class III, O&M", or basically operations and maintenance in asbestos containing areas, and with ACM when needed. It lets me do my primary job around the stuff, that's all. If I remember correctly, my daily limit was 10' of linear pipe insulation or a 3x3' section of wall, ceiling, floor, etc.

That "cardboard" insulation is air cell too. Watch out.





It's asbestos. Not pansy asbestos either. Bad stuff. Friable as hell when disturbed.

Or... Rather... Without testing it I can't be sure, but it's definitely Presumed Asbestos Containing Material, (PACM). Legally, that makes it guilty until proven innocent, and it damn sure sounds identical to stuff I've worked around and stuff that was used as training material in my courses.

Timco
Boiler guy
Offline
Posts: 14013
Feedback: 100% (1)
Link To This Post
Posted: 6/4/2013 4:08:39 PM
Originally Posted By WinstonSmith:
Originally Posted By Timco:
Originally Posted By WinstonSmith:
Originally Posted By Timco:
Originally Posted By camarojsmith:
I do asbestos abatement as a second job. If done properly, there is a lot more to it than just throwing it in a bag.

For friable material you should set up a containment with negative air and a three chamber decontamination. All material needs to be in (2) 6 mil poly bags and tagged with your name and location. The entire containment needs cleaned or sprayed with a lock down then air samples get sent to the lab to determine if the air is "clean". Once you take the material to the dump it still belongs to you. The dump never owns your asbestos.

Materials are not cheap. You have suits, respirators, surfactant, hepa filters, lots and lots of poly, tape and glue. You have to re-certify every year. Plus you have to pay the dump.


Over a certain amount of feet or pounds here. Otherwise it's messicans in jeans and T shirt with dust mask. Zero contain. Maybe a fan drawing out.


I'm pretty sure your here and his here are the same here. It's federal, not state. From what I do remember about my training (and there's no fog on this part), there's no way a couple messicans in street clothes are doing a proper legal abatement.


I'll call and ask. Now I'm curious. I was specifically told by more than one company that no permit or EPA notice was required and I watched them do the work. Actually, I do recall a piece of plastic over the basement stairwell door they cut a slit in and that job was a huge boiler as well. This is 80' total of straight pipe and 6 elbows. Very little packed stuff. The pipe wrap that is not fiberglass is cardboard and seems dipped in a solution prior to wrapping. Not dusty except for the tops of the pipes from time and laundry in that room.


I really don't know anything about the permits or notice. I just know about the abatement process. When you crack into the stuff, you need to be suited up properly, and you need to control the release. There needs to be air sampling throughout. I can't remember whether negative pressure containment is required past a certain size job, but I can tell you with no question that your 80' of pipe and half dozen elbows would exceed my rated allowable job size significantly. I was certified "Class III, O&M", or basically operations and maintenance in asbestos containing areas, and with ACM when needed. It lets me do my primary job around the stuff, that's all. If I remember correctly, my daily limit was 10' of linear pipe insulation or a 3x3' section of wall, ceiling, floor, etc.

That "cardboard" insulation is air cell too. Watch out.

http://greenhomesamerica.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/aircell_pipe.jpg

https://www.ouhsc.edu/ehso/training-norman/acmaircell.jpg

It's asbestos. Not pansy asbestos either. Bad stuff. Friable as hell when disturbed.

Or... Rather... Without testing it I can't be sure, but it's definitely Presumed Asbestos Containing Material, (PACM). Legally, that makes it guilty until proven innocent, and it damn sure sounds identical to stuff I've worked around and stuff that was used as training material in my courses.



That's the stuff......

It's that and clearly fiberglass sections mixed in. No idea why 2 types.

They used negative pressure to pull air from everywhere else and vent the area. The permit thing was if over like 100' or 200' (it was a decent amount) or so many sq' of boiler packed material, then the EPA had to be notified and they could set up monitoring if they chose to randomly. Otherwise, with no supervision, it's probably just called "manual labor" and who cares, right?

I can promise these guys were lax, and that's why I was pissed. All that cash and process for these guys to just yank it off slow & wet??? After being educated in this thread, I am SURE that's why the others were a few grand more, because their guys were suited and could probably communicate better......

I ALWAYS make the HO hire the removal company....I want no part of the extended responsibility.

Going to call the landfill, and see where it has to go. The basement door leads right past my gun cabinet, and all the reloading area. Family has been down there, and some select friends, but no random workers. I do any and all household repairs myself, period. I have time and no need to rush anything...
'Cause you know the Germans make good stuff!
Timco
Boiler guy
Offline
Posts: 14015
Feedback: 100% (1)
Link To This Post
Posted: 6/4/2013 4:34:17 PM
Forgot to say thank you for the info posted.

Good discussion, very mature, no mention of any bodily fluids and no locks!!

'Cause you know the Germans make good stuff!
HWilson
Member
Offline
Posts: 91
Feedback: 100% (4)
Link To This Post
Posted: 6/4/2013 4:48:35 PM
Any advice about it in the old popcorn cielings?

I just bought my first home and am wanting to take it down.

My google-fu seems to say, "keep it wet and scrape it off while wearing a mask and you'll be fine"

Can I get a couple experts to weigh in please?

Is this an easy DIY or am I forever stuck with the popcorn?

Thanks
WinstonSmith
Taxidea Taxus
Offline
Posts: 30968
Feedback: 100% (2)
Link To This Post
Posted: 6/4/2013 5:06:43 PM
Originally Posted By HWilson:
Any advice about it in the old popcorn cielings?

I just bought my first home and am wanting to take it down.

My google-fu seems to say, "keep it wet and scrape it off while wearing a mask and you'll be fine"

Can I get a couple experts to weigh in please?

Is this an easy DIY or am I forever stuck with the popcorn?

Thanks


I can't suggest a particular course of action without some research, but if you suspect asbestos (and I would), I'd do more than just a mask. Tyvek suit, HEPA half-face respirator, some dishwashing gloves, some cheap rubber boots. Duct tape up the suit zipper and at ankles/cuffs. All but the respirator would be single-use. That's the bare minimum. Shit, I wouldn't even do it myself with just the half face respirator. Even when fit properly, they're still shitty protection. They don't always fit properly either, and are generally a pain to work in. A better option is a "PAPR", basically a helmet that actively filters air through a canister and blows it across your face. Your diaphragm isn't doing the work of pulling air through the filter so they're easier to work in. They're less sensitive to fit issues, and their protection factor is SIGNIFICANTLY better than a half-face.

You've seen some talk in here about "negative pressure ventilation". The idea there is to essentially build a tent out of 3mil plastic sheeting and duct tape. The negative pressure is supplied by a vacuum with a HEPA filter, basically just a fancy shop vac. This'll keep any fibers from permeating the rest of the house. The airborne fibers are the risk, and they're so small that they're essentially weightless. They will float in the air for a ridiculously long time, and are easy to kick back up again afterwards. The HEPA vac will pull outside air into your containment constantly, and exhaust only clean air.

Also, buy cheap tools to do the job. They all go out with the hazmat.

There's no way I'd do an abatement in my house without negative pressure and a full suit.
RetroRevolver77
Offline
Posts: 7797
Feedback: 100% (17)
Link To This Post
Posted: 6/4/2013 5:15:46 PM
Originally Posted By WinstonSmith:
Originally Posted By HWilson:
Any advice about it in the old popcorn cielings?

I just bought my first home and am wanting to take it down.

My google-fu seems to say, "keep it wet and scrape it off while wearing a mask and you'll be fine"

Can I get a couple experts to weigh in please?

Is this an easy DIY or am I forever stuck with the popcorn?

Thanks


I can't suggest a particular course of action without some research, but if you suspect asbestos (and I would), I'd do more than just a mask. Tyvek suit, HEPA half-face respirator, some dishwashing gloves, some cheap rubber boots. Duct tape up the suit zipper and at ankles/cuffs. All but the respirator would be single-use. That's the bare minimum. Shit, I wouldn't even do it myself with just the half face respirator. Even when fit properly, they're still shitty protection. They don't always fit properly either, and are generally a pain to work in. A better option is a "PAPR", basically a helmet that actively filters air through a canister and blows it across your face. Your diaphragm isn't doing the work of pulling air through the filter so they're easier to work in. They're less sensitive to fit issues, and their protection factor is SIGNIFICANTLY better than a half-face.

You've seen some talk in here about "negative pressure ventilation". The idea there is to essentially build a tent out of 3mil plastic sheeting and duct tape. The negative pressure is supplied by a vacuum with a HEPA filter, basically just a fancy shop vac. This'll keep any fibers from permeating the rest of the house. The airborne fibers are the risk, and they're so small that they're essentially weightless. They will float in the air for a ridiculously long time, and are easy to kick back up again afterwards. The HEPA vac will pull outside air into your containment constantly, and exhaust only clean air.

Also, buy cheap tools to do the job. They all go out with the hazmat.

There's no way I'd do an abatement in my house without negative pressure and a full suit.



I took out asbestos on my kitchen floor wearing a paper mask.

I think it's all hype.
zeekh
Member
Offline
Posts: 12254
Feedback: 0% (0)
Link To This Post
Posted: 6/4/2013 5:22:17 PM
I think ( not sure) that you can remove your own asbestos put it in a plastic bag and put it the garbage
Erick123
Member
Offline
Posts: 3053
Feedback: 100% (2)
Link To This Post
Posted: 6/4/2013 5:28:44 PM
[Last Edit: 6/4/2013 5:30:03 PM by Erick123]
I am certified for lead and asbestos.

It is pretty much a scam.

Some charge 3x-5x what the normal rate is, to put up plastic sheets, put on a suit, use a respirator, and to wipe everything down after tear out. (using HEPA filters + fans)

To tear out a vinyl floor contaminated with asbestos would be about 1500+$ for 150sqft. It would be done in a couple hours.

DIY, tape the rooms off with plastic, tear out, clean, re-install.
Timco
Boiler guy
Offline
Posts: 14016
Feedback: 100% (1)
Link To This Post
Posted: 6/4/2013 5:30:08 PM
So my local landfill takes it just fine.

Double bag, tape closed, $10.
'Cause you know the Germans make good stuff!
PigBat
Member
Offline
Posts: 340
Feedback: 0% (0)
Link To This Post
Posted: 6/4/2013 5:42:08 PM
Buncha damn lawyers with their scare-mongering bullshit. They make it sound like every third cancer case is asbestos-related.
Basically, unless you smoke, there's very little risk associated with removal of asbestos from a house.
Lawyers and politicians refuse to understand that there are 3 types of asbestos (chrysotile, amosite and crocidolite), the overwhelmingly most common of which poses very little risk. The rare types are the only ones that pose a significant risk, at that only to a very limited group of people.

Chrysotile is what is used in home and most commercial insulation (about 90% of asbestos use). It has long, flexible serpentine fibers.
Amosite and crocidolite are called "amphiboles". They have brittle, short, straight fibers. Used in boilers, brakes, etc.: industrial use.

The crysotile is the most common air pollutant, but the least risky. These fibers get caught in the upper airways and are coughed up. No harm, no foul.
The amphiboles are the ones that fracture and make it deep into the lungs, where they cause fibrosis, which can lead to malignancies, of which mesothelioma is only one.
All types of asbestos fibers are fibrogenic, but crocidolite is the most carcinogenic.

The at-risk group is basically industrial workers who have constant, high-level exposure for a long time, plus they smoke, which increases the risk dramatically.

In my book, cleaning a bit of insulation off one's pipes at home rates a mask at most, and that only because I don't want to breathe in all the 50 year-old dirt. The rest is intentionally ignorant hippy do-gooder big government bullshit.
nvgeologist
Ablative Pointman
NRA
Offline
Posts: 2869
Feedback: 0% (0)
Link To This Post
Posted: 6/4/2013 5:43:59 PM

Originally Posted By RetroRevolver77:


I took out asbestos on my kitchen floor wearing a paper mask.

I think it's all hype.


Next time put on a life jacket for a gun fight, it'll do you as much good as that paper mask did.




Done right, by properly trained and overseen workers, asbestos abatement removes hazardous or potentially hazardous materials and leaves you a good working area to go forward with your project. Done wrong, it's a bunch of money spent which may have made the problem worse.




/Ten year inspector and contractor supervisor

BubbaDog81
Offline
Posts: 1290
Feedback: 0% (0)
Link To This Post
Posted: 6/4/2013 5:47:41 PM
Originally Posted By Timco:
So I'm in the business. Several jobs I look at and bid on have "improved asbestos" wrap, which is cardboard pipe insulation with asbestos coated over it and wrapped in cloth wrap. That's on the straight runs. The elbows and fittings have packed, fibrous asbestos around them which is more the problem areas because they move and fibers are exposed.

So I'm doing a major upgrade to my own historic home. All heating pipes are very well insulated in this stuff. All old pipes go (they hang just over head height) and new copper. I go from 2" black pipe to 1" copper. Over the years I've had one particular company do all my abatement. After seeking several bids on jobs, some are $6k and some are $1200 for the same job!!!! So the "EPA Certified" company comes out. If its under a certain poundage or feet of pipe, no permit or EPA involvement, the stuff is just removed. And what's the big high-tech secret???? A squirt bottle, dust masks, and black trash bags. Seems access to the proper disposal site is the only real issue.

Bottom line, it's over a grand to have pipe wrap removed and hauled off by a nasty crew of "Hispanic gentlemen" and have them see all your gun area and collection....

In before anyone says mesothelioma over one small job.......

ETA...wasn't there a Sopranos episode where Tony saved HUGE money by just dumping it in any local lake??? (I kid, I kid)


Better the certified "remover" get cancer than me. Not worth the risk dude.
ProudVeteran
Military
Offline
Posts: 1129
Feedback: 0% (0)
Link To This Post
Posted: 6/4/2013 5:49:38 PM

Originally Posted By Shott8283:
just hold your breath and toss that shit in the trash.. easy peasy

Lol