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Link Posted: 3/5/2013 9:31:08 AM EDT
Originally Posted By 56type:
Originally Posted By Plumbata:
Originally Posted By nchapa:
Originally Posted By Plumbata:
If you would get out of your basement and pick up a REAL AK, not the one's made in semi for the AMERICAN market, you would not trust the damn thing not to blow up on you. They are junk.


We got trolls from both side now


Having fired REAL AK's in use in Columbia, Guatemala and Honduras, I stand by my statement. you are lucky if the magazine stays in the weapon when firing bursts.


So you shot some shit that's been hanging around since the bay of pigs and have probably been finger fucked by half of central and south america so now all AK's are bad juju ?? Riiiiiiiiggght....


50yrs later they still go bang, 4 months later and the M4 is in for rebuilding.
Link Posted: 3/5/2013 9:31:55 AM EDT
in
Link Posted: 3/5/2013 9:32:58 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Einfeild:
Meanwhile Russia has developed the AK-12....

I mean seriously is the 8lug bolt design with a 6,000-10,000 round life the best America can do? It amazes me we cannot move to a better gun with 30,000+ rounds parts life while places like Russia have a gun that is just that, meanwhile they developed the AK-12 making it as ergonomic as the AR-15, allowing for accessories to easily be attached and have a parts life in excess of 25,000 rounds...

Amazing that in this country a 6-10,000 round gun is the best we can do. Not to mention the inherent reliability the AK offers over the AR-15(not to say the AR-15 is unreliable, just not AK reliable).


You spelled your name wrong.
Link Posted: 3/5/2013 9:33:25 AM EDT
Originally Posted By bg10:
Originally Posted By Einfeild:
Meanwhile Russia has developed the AK-12....

I mean seriously is the 8lug bolt design with a 6,000-10,000 round life the best America can do? It amazes me we cannot move to a better gun with 30,000+ rounds parts life while places like Russia have a gun that is just that, meanwhile they developed the AK-12 making it as ergonomic as the AR-15, allowing for accessories to easily be attached and have a parts life in excess of 25,000 rounds...

Amazing that in this country a 6-10,000 round gun is the best we can do. Not to mention the inherent reliability the AK offers over the AR-15(not to say the AR-15 is unreliable, just not AK reliable).


You spelled your name wrong.



Best post in the entire thread.
Link Posted: 3/5/2013 9:33:39 AM EDT
Originally Posted By bg10:
Originally Posted By Einfeild:
Meanwhile Russia has developed the AK-12....

I mean seriously is the 8lug bolt design with a 6,000-10,000 round life the best America can do? It amazes me we cannot move to a better gun with 30,000+ rounds parts life while places like Russia have a gun that is just that, meanwhile they developed the AK-12 making it as ergonomic as the AR-15, allowing for accessories to easily be attached and have a parts life in excess of 25,000 rounds...

Amazing that in this country a 6-10,000 round gun is the best we can do. Not to mention the inherent reliability the AK offers over the AR-15(not to say the AR-15 is unreliable, just not AK reliable).


You spelled your name wrong.


Link Posted: 3/5/2013 9:34:44 AM EDT
Originally Posted By DK-Prof:
Originally Posted By Choking_Hazard:
The Jews do it better Tavor

Do want


Realistically, there's no real innovation in the Tavor over a SteyrAUG from the 1970s


Ejection switches sides with the press of a button. Did the AUG do that? The FAMAS had it to, but I recall you needed to open the weapon to change it from left/right.
Link Posted: 3/5/2013 9:35:53 AM EDT
Originally Posted By wilNva:
Originally Posted By Einfeild:
Originally Posted By 1811guy:
The AK-12 is nothing more than an AK-74 with some 1913 rails machined into its components. Yeah, that's some real ground breaking innovation there. So much that the Russian military wouldn't adopt it and it is known to have some significant operating defects. The AK-12 is basically a Tapco fucked AK-74 done on the cheap by a Russian arms maker. I will take the AR/M16 platform any day. It is battlefield proven and has been refined by numerous private enterprises in the US.


So youll take a weapon requirin overhaul every 6,000 rounds accordin to SOCOM and heavy amounts of lubricant over a 5.56 AK with 25,000+ parts life requiring little lubricant?


If you're using heavy amounts of lube on your AR, you're doing it wrong. 6-8 drops every 500+ rounds is about all you need.


And thats something to be proud of? You go right ahead and lube your rifle constantly. Ill stick to one that doesnt shit where it eats and holds lube for 3,000+ rounds...like the AK.

Its funny how Russia got it right yet America chose one of the worste systems possible to be a standard issue weapon....
Link Posted: 3/5/2013 9:35:58 AM EDT


50yrs later they still go bang, 4 months later and the M4 is in for rebuilding.


Stop Einfailed. Just stop.
Link Posted: 3/5/2013 9:37:44 AM EDT
Originally Posted By VBC:
No kidding. Only accurate guns are interesting. The AR design is damn interesting.


Dang! Who originally said that? I know that is a famous quote, but I can't remember who.
Link Posted: 3/5/2013 9:38:48 AM EDT
Originally Posted By BearArmy:
This IMO is a huge improvement over the AR15. If only a big company could adopt it and pump them out like a raped ape.
http://emptormaven.com/img/Robinson_XCR-L_11inch_SBR.jpg


OOHHH Me Want one!
Staying out ot this mess. I own both.
My go to is a light weight AR10

Link Posted: 3/5/2013 9:39:20 AM EDT
Link Posted: 3/5/2013 9:39:30 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Pursell:
Originally Posted By VBC:
No kidding. Only accurate guns are interesting. The AR design is damn interesting.


Dang! Who originally said that? I know that is a famous quote, but I can't remember who.


Amazing how the AK can be accurate with good ammo, and still have 4-5 times the parts life of the "venerable" M4. For bein suh a great country we suck at weapons design.
Link Posted: 3/5/2013 9:40:18 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Einfeild:
Originally Posted By 56type:
Originally Posted By Plumbata:
Originally Posted By nchapa:
Originally Posted By Plumbata:
If you would get out of your basement and pick up a REAL AK, not the one's made in semi for the AMERICAN market, you would not trust the damn thing not to blow up on you. They are junk.


We got trolls from both side now


Having fired REAL AK's in use in Columbia, Guatemala and Honduras, I stand by my statement. you are lucky if the magazine stays in the weapon when firing bursts.


So you shot some shit that's been hanging around since the bay of pigs and have probably been finger fucked by half of central and south america so now all AK's are bad juju ?? Riiiiiiiiggght....


50yrs later they still go bang, 4 months later and the M4 is in for rebuilding.


Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.
Link Posted: 3/5/2013 9:40:28 AM EDT
Originally Posted By pikie1:
Originally Posted By BearArmy:
This IMO is a huge improvement over the AR15. If only a big company could adopt it and pump them out like a raped ape.
http://emptormaven.com/img/Robinson_XCR-L_11inch_SBR.jpg


OOHHH Me Want one!
Staying out ot this mess. I own both.
My go to is a light weight AR10



Ahh the AR10..the only weapon less reliable than the AR-15.
Link Posted: 3/5/2013 9:41:07 AM EDT
Originally Posted By DK-Prof:
Originally Posted By Flogger23m:
Originally Posted By DK-Prof:
Originally Posted By Choking_Hazard:
The Jews do it better Tavor

Do want


Realistically, there's no real innovation in the Tavor over a SteyrAUG from the 1970s


Ejection switches sides with the press of a button. Did the AUG do that? The FAMAS had it to, but I recall you needed to open the weapon to change it from left/right.


Since when?

Everything I have seen about the Tavor suggests that it is EXACTLY like the SteyrAUG, in that you need a different bolt, and to disassemble it (obviously), to permanently switch it from right to left ejection.

Please tell me more about this button that exists on the Tavor.




Except the Tavor is MOAR AWESOMEZ because it is Israeli
Link Posted: 3/5/2013 9:41:09 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Einfeild:
Originally Posted By pikie1:
Originally Posted By BearArmy:
This IMO is a huge improvement over the AR15. If only a big company could adopt it and pump them out like a raped ape.
http://emptormaven.com/img/Robinson_XCR-L_11inch_SBR.jpg


OOHHH Me Want one!
Staying out ot this mess. I own both.
My go to is a light weight AR10



Ahh the AR10..the only weapon less reliable than the AR-15.


Oh now you've done it
Link Posted: 3/5/2013 9:41:43 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Einfeild:
50yrs later they still go bang, 4 months later and the M4 is in for rebuilding.


False
Link Posted: 3/5/2013 9:41:59 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Einfeild:
Originally Posted By tommyrich:
10000 rounds...hahahaha

OP, i guess you never heard of the Filthy 14.


Sure have, it broke its first bolt at 16,000 rounds under perfect range conditions and only semi auto fire at a rate of 500 rounds a day....phew thats some tough firin schedule. The barrel made it to 34,000 rounds but was getting 2MOA at 50yrds lol.

Again the AK will last practically forever on weak firing schedules and is good for 15,000 rounds of full auto fire. The M4 breaks at 6,000 when subjected to harsh firig schedules.


So you are complaining about 1 inch groups at 50 yards after 34k rounds? Or are you saying it was getting 2" groups at 50 yards? Which would mean 4MOA. I'd be satisfied with 4 MOA after 34k rounds. That means you are still getting good hits at 500 yards. What's the problem here exactly?
Link Posted: 3/5/2013 9:42:07 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Undefined:
OP prepare your anus, ARF is coming in dry.



Link Posted: 3/5/2013 9:43:53 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Choking_Hazard:
Originally Posted By Einfeild:
Originally Posted By pikie1:
Originally Posted By BearArmy:
This IMO is a huge improvement over the AR15. If only a big company could adopt it and pump them out like a raped ape.
http://emptormaven.com/img/Robinson_XCR-L_11inch_SBR.jpg


OOHHH Me Want one!
Staying out ot this mess. I own both.
My go to is a light weight AR10



Ahh the AR10..the only weapon less reliable than the AR-15.


Oh now you've done it


Its true, only thing with a worse history than the M16's adoption is the AR-10's tests early on, just look at the M110 SASS talk about a POS, theres a reason no one wants the M110.
Link Posted: 3/5/2013 9:44:35 AM EDT
Is this some kind of Bizzaro Rusted Ace thread?
Link Posted: 3/5/2013 9:45:02 AM EDT
Threads like this are why the CoC should be amended a bit. Some people deserve to be ridiculed and belittled.
Link Posted: 3/5/2013 9:45:33 AM EDT
Originally Posted By AnvilUSMC:
Originally Posted By Einfeild:
Originally Posted By tommyrich:
10000 rounds...hahahaha

OP, i guess you never heard of the Filthy 14.


Sure have, it broke its first bolt at 16,000 rounds under perfect range conditions and only semi auto fire at a rate of 500 rounds a day....phew thats some tough firin schedule. The barrel made it to 34,000 rounds but was getting 2MOA at 50yrds lol.

Again the AK will last practically forever on weak firing schedules and is good for 15,000 rounds of full auto fire. The M4 breaks at 6,000 when subjected to harsh firig schedules.


So you are complaining about 1 inch groups at 50 yards after 34k rounds? Or are you saying it was getting 2" groups at 50 yards? Which would mean 4MOA. I'd be satisfied with 4 MOA after 34k rounds. That means you are still getting good hits at 500 yards. What's the problem here exactly?


The irony is even the best AK's are 2moa at 50 yards out of the box if you're lucky
Link Posted: 3/5/2013 9:46:56 AM EDT
OK, just forget for a minute the debate over AR vs AK. That's not really the issue.

The real issue here is that all fully auto firearms designed in the U.S. that weren't total crap were designed by individuals. Think John Browning and Eugene Stoner. The Hughes amendment to the Firearm Owners Protection Act of 1986 made development of fully automatic weapons by anyone other than a large corporation with a defense contract illegal.

So now the only weapons development in the U.S. is done by large corporations doing design-by-committee based on meeting some government contract and satisfying some shareholders, instead of some guy in his workshop just trying to come up with the best weapon possible with no restrictions on what he can try and no requirements other than what is in his head.
Link Posted: 3/5/2013 9:47:04 AM EDT
Link Posted: 3/5/2013 9:47:08 AM EDT
Originally Posted By DK-Prof:
Originally Posted By Flogger23m:
Originally Posted By DK-Prof:
Originally Posted By Choking_Hazard:
The Jews do it better Tavor

Do want


Realistically, there's no real innovation in the Tavor over a SteyrAUG from the 1970s


Ejection switches sides with the press of a button. Did the AUG do that? The FAMAS had it to, but I recall you needed to open the weapon to change it from left/right.


Since when?

Everything I have seen about the Tavor suggests that it is EXACTLY like the SteyrAUG, in that you need a different bolt, and to disassemble it (obviously), to permanently switch it from right to left ejection.

Please tell me more about this button that exists on the Tavor.




Maybe I was wrong.
Link Posted: 3/5/2013 9:47:40 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Einfeild:
Originally Posted By Pursell:
Originally Posted By VBC:
No kidding. Only accurate guns are interesting. The AR design is damn interesting.


Dang! Who originally said that? I know that is a famous quote, but I can't remember who.


Amazing how the AK can be accurate with good ammo, and still have 4-5 times the parts life of the "venerable" M4. For bein suh a great country we suck at weapons design.


Dude seriously. You're in a hole, stop digging.

Link Posted: 3/5/2013 9:47:49 AM EDT
Are we only worried about full auto reliability here?
Link Posted: 3/5/2013 9:48:15 AM EDT
Originally Posted By wilNva:

The irony is even the best AK's are 2moa at 50 yards out of the box if you're lucky



Link Posted: 3/5/2013 9:48:16 AM EDT
Link Posted: 3/5/2013 9:49:43 AM EDT
The AR-15 is the best we can do until someone develops a phased plasma rifle in the 40-watt range.
Link Posted: 3/5/2013 9:50:22 AM EDT
Originally Posted By BearArmy:
Are we only worried about full auto reliability here?


The longer it lasts in auto the longer it lasts in semi. The M4 can get to 6,000 rounds when subjected to lots of auto. The AK can get to 15,000+ on auto and 30,000+ in semi.
Link Posted: 3/5/2013 9:50:37 AM EDT
Link Posted: 3/5/2013 9:50:56 AM EDT
Fucking retards abound in this world.
Link Posted: 3/5/2013 9:51:12 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Einfeild:
Originally Posted By BisonWorld:
Originally Posted By CROWDLG:
The SR15 bolt is good for 25k rounds.

So yeah, That is better than the AR and U.S. Made.


Isnt 25k just the factory warranty even? I've yet to ever hear of a case where an e3 bolt was broken


And how many are out there? 10 or so? Vs the #1 weapon in the world? Yet you never hear of AK bolts breaking even 60yr old ones.


Here's one, I'm sure we can find 9 more in this thread

Link Posted: 3/5/2013 9:51:15 AM EDT
Originally Posted By DK-Prof:
Originally Posted By Choking_Hazard:
...

The ejection is really only an issue for lefty shooters.


Well, obviously - that's THE central issue with bullpups.

And the SteyrAUG and Tavor have a partial solution to that, by being able to MODIFY the weapon for left ejection (but it requires additional parts). Thus my point that the Tavor doesn't really offer anything new over the 1970s design of the AUG. The FN2000 is truly ambidextrous because it has forward ejection, and thus it actually eliminates the main criticism of the bullpup design (but has other problems).

Don't get me wrong. I like the Tavor, and I'll probably end up getting one - partly because I am one of the biggest bullpup fans on this site. I just wish people would acknowledge that there's not actually anything new or particularly innovative about the Tavor. It's just an Israeli repackaging of a 70s concepts.


Now if they made a PS90 that shot 5.56 we would have something great. 50 round mags, bottom ejection, fully ambi, simple to work on and nice n tiny.
Link Posted: 3/5/2013 9:51:34 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Einfeild:
Originally Posted By BearArmy:
Are we only worried about full auto reliability here?


The longer it lasts in auto the longer it lasts in semi. The M4 can get to 6,000 rounds when subjected to lots of auto. The AK can get to 15,000+ on auto and 30,000+ in semi.


And I assume you have the personal experience to back up your claims.
Link Posted: 3/5/2013 9:51:36 AM EDT
Originally Posted By DK-Prof:

I'm tempted to apologize about the Tavor threadjack - but since this thread seems to just be trolling, it might actually improve it.


Link Posted: 3/5/2013 9:51:57 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Einfeild:
Originally Posted By Pursell:
Originally Posted By VBC:
No kidding. Only accurate guns are interesting. The AR design is damn interesting.


Dang! Who originally said that? I know that is a famous quote, but I can't remember who.


Amazing how the AK can be accurate with good ammo, and still have 4-5 times the parts life of the "venerable" M4. For bein suh a great country we suck at weapons design.


Link Posted: 3/5/2013 9:53:07 AM EDT

Originally Posted By w15ly:
Originally Posted By Einfeild:
Originally Posted By BearArmy:
Are we only worried about full auto reliability here?


The longer it lasts in auto the longer it lasts in semi. The M4 can get to 6,000 rounds when subjected to lots of auto. The AK can get to 15,000+ on auto and 30,000+ in semi.


And I assume you have the personal experience to back up your claims.

He Prestiged 4 times on COD 4
Link Posted: 3/5/2013 9:55:16 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Einfeild:
Originally Posted By Choking_Hazard:
Originally Posted By Einfeild:
Originally Posted By pikie1:
Originally Posted By BearArmy:
This IMO is a huge improvement over the AR15. If only a big company could adopt it and pump them out like a raped ape.
http://emptormaven.com/img/Robinson_XCR-L_11inch_SBR.jpg


OOHHH Me Want one!
Staying out ot this mess. I own both.
My go to is a light weight AR10



Ahh the AR10..the only weapon less reliable than the AR-15.


Oh now you've done it


Its true, only thing with a worse history than the M16's adoption is the AR-10's tests early on, just look at the M110 SASS talk about a POS, theres a reason no one wants the M110.


That was with DPMS AR10s though, Larue AR10s are good to go
Link Posted: 3/5/2013 9:56:22 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Choking_Hazard:
The Jews do it better Tavor

Do want


http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1415109_Why_doesn_t_the_U_S__use_the_bullpup_design_.html
Link Posted: 3/5/2013 9:56:28 AM EDT
Let's turn this thread into a guess the OP's age and weight!
Age 16 Weight 264
Link Posted: 3/5/2013 9:58:54 AM EDT
Originally Posted By wilNva:
Originally Posted By AnvilUSMC:
Originally Posted By Einfeild:
Originally Posted By tommyrich:
10000 rounds...hahahaha

OP, i guess you never heard of the Filthy 14.


Sure have, it broke its first bolt at 16,000 rounds under perfect range conditions and only semi auto fire at a rate of 500 rounds a day....phew thats some tough firin schedule. The barrel made it to 34,000 rounds but was getting 2MOA at 50yrds lol.

Again the AK will last practically forever on weak firing schedules and is good for 15,000 rounds of full auto fire. The M4 breaks at 6,000 when subjected to harsh firig schedules.


So you are complaining about 1 inch groups at 50 yards after 34k rounds? Or are you saying it was getting 2" groups at 50 yards? Which would mean 4MOA. I'd be satisfied with 4 MOA after 34k rounds. That means you are still getting good hits at 500 yards. What's the problem here exactly?


The irony is even the best AK's are 2moa at 50 yards out of the box if you're lucky


Is that the same as 2moa at 300 yards?
Link Posted: 3/5/2013 9:58:56 AM EDT
Originally Posted By bg10:
Originally Posted By Einfeild:
Meanwhile Russia has developed the AK-12....

I mean seriously is the 8lug bolt design with a 6,000-10,000 round life the best America can do? It amazes me we cannot move to a better gun with 30,000+ rounds parts life while places like Russia have a gun that is just that, meanwhile they developed the AK-12 making it as ergonomic as the AR-15, allowing for accessories to easily be attached and have a parts life in excess of 25,000 rounds...

Amazing that in this country a 6-10,000 round gun is the best we can do. Not to mention the inherent reliability the AK offers over the AR-15(not to say the AR-15 is unreliable, just not AK reliable).


You spelled your name wrong.


Damn!

Beat me to it
Link Posted: 3/5/2013 9:59:12 AM EDT
Originally Posted By speedball:
Let's turn this thread into a guess the OP's age and weight!
Age 16 Weight 264


I'm gonna say 26 and 319
Link Posted: 3/5/2013 9:59:43 AM EDT
Originally Posted By speedball:
Let's turn this thread into a guess the OP's age and weight!
Age 16 Weight 264


Ouch.
Link Posted: 3/5/2013 10:00:16 AM EDT
Originally Posted By DK-Prof:

I'm tempted to apologize about the Tavor threadjack - but since this thread seems to just be trolling, it might actually improve it.


What makes it trolling? The fact that I don't agree with everyone else or that facts show the AK is a more durable system than the 6,000 round M4.

SOCOM themselves said the M4 is a 6,000 round gun in that 2001 test they did.
Link Posted: 3/5/2013 10:00:37 AM EDT
Age 14 Weight 220


Needs a gun that can fire 25,000 rounds because it takes that many to hit the same number of targets that an AR needs 2,000 rounds for.
Link Posted: 3/5/2013 10:00:46 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/5/2013 10:56:50 AM EDT by Greggo556]
Originally Posted By tojan19:
Pretty sure I've passed 6k on one of my ARs and no sign of a bolt issue. I've never even heard of this BS before.

I believe the comment on Mil-Spec being the worst thing to happen to the AR is directed at .gov not allowing improvements in the design and people believing if it isn't exactly mil-spec (a minimum spec), its junk. Things like advanced coatings on the BCGs, or better triggers, stocks, flash hiders, ect.


How in the fuck does any of that stuff make the AR more battle proven?

I swear some of you guys want to pretend to be Mr. Major League Operator of ARF by dissing on Colts .gov rifles and dissing some other big names in the business at the same time.

Do you even own a BCG with an "advanced coating"?
I do (NiB-X) it's nothing really that special...I would have just as soon bought a "Mil-Spec" phosphate BCM had it been available.

Are you seriously going to sit here on ARF and convince us that BCM and LMT "Mil-spec" bolts are sub-standard junk, because a company called FailZero makes shiny BCG's that don't require any lubricant?

The reality is, "Mil-Spec" is pretty damn exceptional quality, and just because you read in a magazine that some SpecOps unit wants something other than .gov issued Colts, then they must be complete shit.

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