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AJ-IN-JAX
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Posted: 2/10/2013 8:57:13 AM
[Last Edit: 2/10/2013 8:57:31 AM by AJ-IN-JAX]
Just ran across this, figured I'd pass it along.


WARNING: THIS IS A MEDICAL PRESENTATION AND THERE ARE PICTURES OF ACTUAL GSW VICTIMS!!


Dr. Andreas Grabinsky (Anesthesiologist) from Seattle, talks about GSW's. He works with the surgeons and trauma team in the OR. He provides a interesting look at ballistics from their perspective. Essentially he considers a handgun wound, a handgun wound, and that common calibers lack power. He also makes distinctions between the types of damage seen from the traditional rifle round and the modern small caliber high velocity rounds.


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Chris_1522
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Posted: 2/10/2013 8:58:48 AM
Yet again. For all practical purposes, they're all the same.
echo_5
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Posted: 2/10/2013 9:00:40 AM
Dupe, but worth repeating.
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Real25WSSM
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Posted: 2/10/2013 9:02:14 AM
[Last Edit: 2/10/2013 9:02:39 AM by Real25WSSM]
...good video....

..that is why I need 30+ round magazines...continue shooting until the threat STOPS...

thank you sir...
BuckeyeDoc
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Posted: 2/10/2013 9:02:53 AM
Handgun wounds are like getting poked with a sharp stick. Just slightly larger and smaller sticks between calibers.

Rifle wounds, not so much so. More like getting poked with an angry badger with very large claws.
gaweidert
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Posted: 2/10/2013 9:07:14 AM
Actually it seems that a .22 is as likely to make a bad guy cease his activities as a 45.

http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/handgun-stopping-power
ztug
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Posted: 2/10/2013 9:07:57 AM
Originally Posted By Chris_1522:
Yet again. For all practical purposes, they're all the same.


You didn't watch the video did you? He shows that rifle wounds are much more devastating. He also points out that an exception is the 5.56. If it doesn't tumble or hit bone, it makes a .22 caliber hole going in and a .22 caliber hole coming out.
Colonel_Angus
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Posted: 2/10/2013 9:10:13 AM
[Last Edit: 2/10/2013 9:10:28 AM by Colonel_Angus]
No we arent good at watching videos. thats why you will see people say stuff like this....

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tommytrauma
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Posted: 2/10/2013 9:10:51 AM
Originally Posted By ztug:
Originally Posted By Chris_1522:
Yet again. For all practical purposes, they're all the same.


You didn't watch the video did you? He shows that rifle wounds are much more devastating. He also points out that an exception is the 5.56. If it doesn't tumble or hit bone, it makes a .22 caliber hole going in and a .22 caliber hole coming out.


I believe Chris was referring to handgun terminal ballistics.

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pilotman
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Posted: 2/10/2013 9:12:49 AM
get out of here with them there facts and science and shit.
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Nagewaza624
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Posted: 2/10/2013 9:14:16 AM
Originally Posted By echo_5:
Dupe, but worth repeating.


yep
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BRADLEYBUILT
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Posted: 2/10/2013 9:23:17 AM
[Last Edit: 2/10/2013 9:23:33 AM by BRADLEYBUILT]
Old dupe. but a good one!
KILLERB6
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Posted: 2/10/2013 9:30:28 AM
Originally Posted By Chris_1522:
Yet again. For all practical purposes, they're all the same.


These threads are always funny to follow.

A lot of anger and unpossibles will be generated.
But since it has, so ordered be, by a time to rise and a time to fall.
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ArmyInfantryVet
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Posted: 2/10/2013 9:31:07 AM

Originally Posted By tommytrauma:
Originally Posted By ztug:
Originally Posted By Chris_1522:
Yet again. For all practical purposes, they're all the same.


You didn't watch the video did you? He shows that rifle wounds are much more devastating. He also points out that an exception is the 5.56. If it doesn't tumble or hit bone, it makes a .22 caliber hole going in and a .22 caliber hole coming out.


I believe Chris was referring to handgun terminal ballistics.

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That was what I took away from it as well.
RabidMonkeyPox
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Posted: 2/10/2013 9:32:03 AM
I came in here to post that .45 and Beans in Chili are the answer.
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TLeath
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Posted: 2/10/2013 9:34:30 AM
Originally Posted By RabidMonkeyPox:
I came in here to post that .45 and Beans in Chili are the answer.


And wiser words were never spoken.
leatherpuke
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Posted: 2/10/2013 9:34:40 AM
Originally Posted By RabidMonkeyPox:
I came in here to post that .45 9mm and Beans in Chili are the answer.



fify
Seriously......who farted?
ztug
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Posted: 2/10/2013 9:36:14 AM
[Last Edit: 2/10/2013 9:38:38 AM by ztug]
OP Title........9mm vs .45 vs Rifle A Dr's View of Gunshot Wounds


Rifle (all Centerfire)
% of hits that were fatal - 68%
% of people who were not incapacitated - 9%

9mm Luger
% of hits that were fatal - 24%
% of people who were not incapacitated - 13%

.45 ACP
% of hits that were fatal - 29%
% of people who were not incapacitated - 14%

.22 (short, long and long rifle)
% of hits that were fatal - 34% (pistol and rifle)
% of people who were not incapacitated - 31%
KILLERB6
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Posted: 2/10/2013 9:37:35 AM
Anyone remember (maybe even know) the poster on GlockTalk (where I saw him but people referred to other forums where he posted) who said he was the equivalent of CSI for a "major metropolitan area in Lousiana" who claimed that handgun wounds were incredibly survivable and all calibers and bullet types behaved similarly in actual shootings.

I can't remember enough of the threads or his username to effectively search for his old posts but it was interesting to see him present a real life case and then watch others refute what he purported to see.
But since it has, so ordered be, by a time to rise and a time to fall.
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Hector_X
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Posted: 2/10/2013 9:43:20 AM
Originally Posted By gaweidert:
Actually it seems that a .22 is as likely to make a bad guy cease his activities as a 45.


And yet, the article says:

Some people will look at this data and say "He's telling us all to carry .22s". That's not true. Although this study showed that the percentages of people stopped with one shot are similar between almost all handgun cartridges, there's more to the story. Take a look at two numbers: the percentage of people who did not stop (no matter how many rounds were fired into them) and the one-shot-stop percentage. The lower caliber rounds (.22, .25, .32) had a failure rate that was roughly double that of the higher caliber rounds. The one-shot-stop percentage (where I considered all hits, anywhere on the body) trended generally higher as the round gets more powerful.
Psychovore
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Posted: 2/10/2013 9:48:07 AM
[Last Edit: 2/10/2013 9:53:18 AM by Psychovore]
Originally Posted By KILLERB6:
Anyone remember (maybe even know) the poster on GlockTalk (where I saw him but people referred to other forums where he posted) who said he was the equivalent of CSI for a "major metropolitan area in Lousiana" who claimed that handgun wounds were incredibly survivable and all calibers and bullet types behaved similarly in actual shootings.

I can't remember enough of the threads or his username to effectively search for his old posts but it was interesting to see him present a real life case and then watch others refute what he purported to see.


A buddy of mine works in an ER in Houston. A lot of the bullets they pull out of the regulars are just shitty target ammo. While shot placement is king, I'd prefer to have that plus a nice JHP that will open up and hopefully nick something vital.

ETA: Forgot that he relocated.
ztug
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Posted: 2/10/2013 9:49:59 AM
Originally Posted By Hector_X:
Originally Posted By gaweidert:
Actually it seems that a .22 is as likely to make a bad guy cease his activities as a 45.


And yet, the article says:

Some people will look at this data and say "He's telling us all to carry .22s". That's not true. Although this study showed that the percentages of people stopped with one shot are similar between almost all handgun cartridges, there's more to the story. Take a look at two numbers: the percentage of people who did not stop (no matter how many rounds were fired into them) and the one-shot-stop percentage. The lower caliber rounds (.22, .25, .32) had a failure rate that was roughly double that of the higher caliber rounds. The one-shot-stop percentage (where I considered all hits, anywhere on the body) trended generally higher as the round gets more powerful.


Triple that of a rifle of any caliber.
crownvic96
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Posted: 2/10/2013 9:54:52 AM
[Last Edit: 2/10/2013 9:55:36 AM by crownvic96]
A lot of the gang bangers holding their glock's sideway probably also don't know shit about ammunition types to increase lethality or why shot placement is critical. I'd be willing to bet almost all of the handgun rounds are FMJs. Plus the simple fact rifles just have A LOT more energy then a pistol does.

I'd like to see a breakdown on bullet types within a certain caliber and lethality/incapacitation.
sixnine
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Posted: 2/10/2013 10:12:53 AM
[Last Edit: 2/10/2013 10:14:21 AM by sixnine]
I'm also willing to bet that the rifle hits were better placed than the pistol hits. Remember those statshisitics that there are about 350 deaths caused by rifles as opposed to 8-9,000 caused by pistols? How often do street shootings involve well placed shots with handguns? Probably not that many.

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Posted: 2/10/2013 10:14:15 AM
Very informative.
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Aimless
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Posted: 2/10/2013 10:17:43 AM
modern jhp pistols rounds are pretty much the same but rifle wounds are far, far worse? Is that it or do I need to watch it?
Prosecutor Kristyna S. Mills said her office prosecutes these types of cases “all the time”speaking of the prosecution of Sgt. Nathan Haddad, a decorated combat veteran, for possessing AR15 magazines
sterling18
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Posted: 2/10/2013 10:19:35 AM
Good video.
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Psychovore
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Posted: 2/10/2013 10:22:51 AM
[Last Edit: 2/10/2013 10:24:58 AM by Psychovore]
Originally Posted By crownvic96:
A lot of the gang bangers holding their glock's sideway probably also don't know shit about ammunition types to increase lethality or why shot placement is critical. I'd be willing to bet almost all of the handgun rounds are FMJs. Plus the simple fact rifles just have A LOT more energy then a pistol does.

I'd like to see a breakdown on bullet types within a certain caliber and lethality/incapacitation.


They know shit all. There was a thread here a couple of months ago with some ammo that the ARFCOMmer had confiscated from a gang-banger. The bullets were whittled down to points, or other weird shapes, so much so that it was doubtful the rifling could grab them. Apparently the guy thought a skinny, pointy piece of lead would have a better chance of piercing body armor or something.

Someone else posted video of gang member interviews last year. Gang member talked about his "special purple bullets, you hit someone in the leg and it paralyzes them for an hour." He showed those special purple bullets to the newscaster.

They were Snap-Caps...
broken_reticle
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Posted: 2/10/2013 10:30:24 AM
Gang bangers are...idiots. Just like hand guns are hand guns and rifles are rifles.

A friend of mine was taking a forensics class last year and one of his books was just about gun shots. Very interesting reading. One of the items I found interesting was a statement that it was impossible to tell what someone was shot with unless you found the bullet.

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tommytrauma
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Posted: 2/10/2013 10:37:42 AM
Originally Posted By Psychovore:
Originally Posted By crownvic96:
A lot of the gang bangers holding their glock's sideway probably also don't know shit about ammunition types to increase lethality or why shot placement is critical. I'd be willing to bet almost all of the handgun rounds are FMJs. Plus the simple fact rifles just have A LOT more energy then a pistol does.

I'd like to see a breakdown on bullet types within a certain caliber and lethality/incapacitation.


They know shit all. There was a thread here a couple of months ago with some ammo that the ARFCOMmer had confiscated from a gang-banger. The bullets were whittled down to points, or other weird shapes, so much so that it was doubtful the rifling could grab them. Apparently the guy thought a skinny, pointy piece of lead would have a better chance of piercing body armor or something.

Someone else posted video of gang member interviews last year. Gang member talked about his "special purple bullets, you hit someone in the leg and it paralyzes them for an hour." He showed those special purple bullets to the newscaster.

They were Snap-Caps...


Awesome. :)
I need to find that video.

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Nichonator
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Posted: 2/10/2013 10:44:18 AM
I work in a hospital and chat regulalrly with the trauma staff. I constantly hear from them the fact that ammo selection and shot placement are key. 2 RN's and a Doctor in Trauma who carry are just as comfortable with a 9mm, 380 or 3acp as well because the platform is concealable. We have had 3-4 shootings already this year where the victim has stated they "wished they had a gun"..
So the lessons I have learned from them are as follows.

1.Always have a gun.
2.Shot placment i.e. lots of bullets in the upper torso and head are key.
3.Bullet selection (read quality FMJ/HP high velocity) is important.
Psychovore
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Posted: 2/10/2013 10:44:29 AM
Originally Posted By tommytrauma:
Originally Posted By Psychovore:
Originally Posted By crownvic96:
A lot of the gang bangers holding their glock's sideway probably also don't know shit about ammunition types to increase lethality or why shot placement is critical. I'd be willing to bet almost all of the handgun rounds are FMJs. Plus the simple fact rifles just have A LOT more energy then a pistol does.

I'd like to see a breakdown on bullet types within a certain caliber and lethality/incapacitation.


They know shit all. There was a thread here a couple of months ago with some ammo that the ARFCOMmer had confiscated from a gang-banger. The bullets were whittled down to points, or other weird shapes, so much so that it was doubtful the rifling could grab them. Apparently the guy thought a skinny, pointy piece of lead would have a better chance of piercing body armor or something.

Someone else posted video of gang member interviews last year. Gang member talked about his "special purple bullets, you hit someone in the leg and it paralyzes them for an hour." He showed those special purple bullets to the newscaster.

They were Snap-Caps...


Awesome. :)
I need to find that video.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile


Here's the thread about it, video was removed from YouTube but it gives the name of the source so you may be able to track it down.
Nichonator
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Posted: 2/10/2013 10:52:24 AM
Doctor in video also makes another very good point. Only 4% of firearms deaths annualy are by all rifles combined, hunting and semi autos (Assault rifles??).. So if Obama and crew effectively banned and confiscated all rifles in America it would only decrease ther annual death statistic by that measley 4%.. Assuming these are all folks who don't desreve to die (i.e. criminal element) that is a very small number. Wont hear that on CNN..
4bangin
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Posted: 2/10/2013 11:00:56 AM
Originally Posted By Aimless:
modern jhp pistols rounds are pretty much the same but rifle wounds are far, far worse? Is that it or do I need to watch it?


No ... Tissue damage does not cause death most of the time. Bleeding and non functioning airway cause death. Only tissue that causes death is brain stem. So make em bleed and unable to breath.
crownvic96
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Posted: 2/10/2013 11:07:35 AM
Originally Posted By Psychovore:
Originally Posted By tommytrauma:
Originally Posted By Psychovore:
Originally Posted By crownvic96:
A lot of the gang bangers holding their glock's sideway probably also don't know shit about ammunition types to increase lethality or why shot placement is critical. I'd be willing to bet almost all of the handgun rounds are FMJs. Plus the simple fact rifles just have A LOT more energy then a pistol does.

I'd like to see a breakdown on bullet types within a certain caliber and lethality/incapacitation.


They know shit all. There was a thread here a couple of months ago with some ammo that the ARFCOMmer had confiscated from a gang-banger. The bullets were whittled down to points, or other weird shapes, so much so that it was doubtful the rifling could grab them. Apparently the guy thought a skinny, pointy piece of lead would have a better chance of piercing body armor or something.

Someone else posted video of gang member interviews last year. Gang member talked about his "special purple bullets, you hit someone in the leg and it paralyzes them for an hour." He showed those special purple bullets to the newscaster.

They were Snap-Caps...


Awesome. :)
I need to find that video.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile


Here's the thread about it, video was removed from YouTube but it gives the name of the source so you may be able to track it down.


~1:18 in on this version

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Posted: 2/10/2013 11:09:14 AM
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Posted: 2/10/2013 11:09:40 AM
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Psychovore
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Posted: 2/10/2013 11:13:49 PM
Originally Posted By crownvic96:
Originally Posted By Psychovore:
Originally Posted By tommytrauma:
Originally Posted By Psychovore:
Originally Posted By crownvic96:
A lot of the gang bangers holding their glock's sideway probably also don't know shit about ammunition types to increase lethality or why shot placement is critical. I'd be willing to bet almost all of the handgun rounds are FMJs. Plus the simple fact rifles just have A LOT more energy then a pistol does.

I'd like to see a breakdown on bullet types within a certain caliber and lethality/incapacitation.


They know shit all. There was a thread here a couple of months ago with some ammo that the ARFCOMmer had confiscated from a gang-banger. The bullets were whittled down to points, or other weird shapes, so much so that it was doubtful the rifling could grab them. Apparently the guy thought a skinny, pointy piece of lead would have a better chance of piercing body armor or something.

Someone else posted video of gang member interviews last year. Gang member talked about his "special purple bullets, you hit someone in the leg and it paralyzes them for an hour." He showed those special purple bullets to the newscaster.

They were Snap-Caps...


Awesome. :)
I need to find that video.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile


Here's the thread about it, video was removed from YouTube but it gives the name of the source so you may be able to track it down.


~1:18 in on this version

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gnai3CJExIA


Awesome, thank you.
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Posted: 2/10/2013 11:16:39 PM
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