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Posted: 2/1/2013 12:47:57 PM EDT
[#1]
Quoted:
I know what the answer is...at least I am 99.9 % sure I do, but need references. On a liberal forum there is a debate as to whether or not cops and military are trained to kill (stop the threat), or wound.. I know its the former, some are saying its the latter. Need someone who is LEO or military to end this debate. Shoot till the threat is down. |
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Posted: 2/1/2013 12:48:34 PM EDT
[#2]
I know the answer, but since I'm not LEO or .mil, I'll defer
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Posted: 2/1/2013 12:49:33 PM EDT
[#3]
can i post the link to the discussion here?
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Posted: 2/1/2013 12:50:34 PM EDT
[#4]
Shoot to stop the threat (LEO). It's all about civil liability.
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Posted: 2/1/2013 12:50:45 PM EDT
[#5]
Shoot until the threat is no longer a threat.
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Posted: 2/1/2013 12:52:08 PM EDT
[#6]
Neither, we're trained to stop the threat. (I'm mil LEO)
I double tap center mass until the threat stops. If it doesn't stop I start in on some failure drills, head and pelvis shots. If it still doesn't stop then it's a terminator and I run away. Wounding or killing is not on my mind, it's as simple as making the person stop doing whatever they're doing that made me shoot at them in the first place. |
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Posted: 2/1/2013 12:52:41 PM EDT
[#7]
I'm mil (infantry) shoot to stop the threat.
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Posted: 2/1/2013 12:52:57 PM EDT
[#8]
Quoted:
Shoot until the threat is no longer a threat. Yup. If you are shooting to wound, you probably don't need to be shooting. That, or you are too much of a pussy to do a job that requires you to carry a gun. |
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Posted: 2/1/2013 12:52:59 PM EDT
[#9]
Shoot to stop the threat.
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Posted: 2/1/2013 12:53:47 PM EDT
[#10]
Stop the threat. Death is simply a potential byproduct of the action.
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Posted: 2/1/2013 12:54:01 PM EDT
[#11]
That depends, how big of an asshole is he being?
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Posted: 2/1/2013 12:54:10 PM EDT
[#12]
I shoot to stay alive. That was a big hit in the court room.
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Posted: 2/1/2013 12:54:15 PM EDT
[#13]
Quoted:
Shoot to stop the threat (LEO). Which is a nice, PC way of saying shoot to kill. 
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Posted: 2/1/2013 12:54:22 PM EDT
[#14]
Both (MP). Stop the threat, BUT at no time does that involve targeting body parts other than high-center chest or head.
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Posted: 2/1/2013 12:54:27 PM EDT
[#15]
Quoted:
Neither, we're trained to stop the threat. (I'm mil LEO) I double tap center mass until the threat stops. If it doesn't stop I start in on some failure drills, head and pelvis shots. If it still doesn't stop then it's a terminator and I run away. Wounding or killing is not on my mind, it's as simple as making the person stop doing whatever they're doing that made me shoot at them in the first place. What happened to 2 controlled rounds COM? |
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Posted: 2/1/2013 12:54:54 PM EDT
[#16]
Pretty sure the military doesn't drop JDAMs in order to wound.
We shoot to fucking kill. So does the enemy, don't forget that. |
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Posted: 2/1/2013 12:55:02 PM EDT
[#17]
In LEO circles, I understant the "stop" rhetoric for legal reasons, but I laugh at it.
In military circles, it is simply "kill." There is no beat around the bush. If lethal force is authorized in the ROE, it is meant to be lethal. Now, shoot to wound or kill when you shouldn't use lethal force? Yeah, that's a big Bozo no-no. |
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Posted: 2/1/2013 12:55:22 PM EDT
[#18]
Quoted:
Stop the threat. Death is simply a potential byproduct of the action. |
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Posted: 2/1/2013 12:55:54 PM EDT
[#19]
Quoted:
I know what the answer is...at least I am 99.9 % sure I do, but need references. On a liberal forum there is a debate as to whether or not cops and military are trained to kill (stop the threat), or wound.. I know its the former, some are saying its the latter. Need someone who is LEO or military to end this debate. We killed 'em by the bucket load. I'm sure we wounded them by the bucket load too. |
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Posted: 2/1/2013 12:56:37 PM EDT
[#20]
'Shoot to neutralize the threat'
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Posted: 2/1/2013 12:56:46 PM EDT
[#21]
Quoted:
Quoted:
I know what the answer is...at least I am 99.9 % sure I do, but need references. On a liberal forum there is a debate as to whether or not cops and military are trained to kill (stop the threat), or wound.. I know its the former, some are saying its the latter. Need someone who is LEO or military to end this debate. Shoot till the threat is down. First post... You stop the threat. Stopping the threat != kill by necessity. If you stop the threat and just graze someone, they are still stopped. mil and police train to get effective hits in the center of mass. |
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Posted: 2/1/2013 12:57:06 PM EDT
[#22]
Quoted: Shoot to stop the threat. this any CIV or LEO or MIL that starts talking differently is full of @#$% this is the FLETC standard line and this is the MIL ROE Standard line. |
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Posted: 2/1/2013 12:58:13 PM EDT
[#23]
Shoot to stop, if he gets back up shoot again. My friend was a cop before he joined the military. They were told to shoot to wound or stop. Then the instructor off the record told them to kill threat, less lawsuits that way
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Posted: 2/1/2013 12:58:24 PM EDT
[#24]
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Posted: 2/1/2013 12:58:37 PM EDT
[#25]
Quoted:
Quoted:
I know what the answer is...at least I am 99.9 % sure I do, but need references. On a liberal forum there is a debate as to whether or not cops and military are trained to kill (stop the threat), or wound.. I know its the former, some are saying its the latter. Need someone who is LEO or military to end this debate. We killed 'em by the bucket load. I'm sure we wounded them by the bucket load too. Many times the person is not even an threat to anyone at the time. Nothing to stop. Fucker chose the wrong line of work. Shoot to stop bad choices? |
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Posted: 2/1/2013 1:00:15 PM EDT
[#26]
Use the needed force to stop the threat, If your attacker chooses to die, thats his decision. He has poor combat mindset.
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Posted: 2/1/2013 1:00:16 PM EDT
[#27]
Quoted:
Shoot until the threat is no longer a threat. LEO, and this. No LEO or .mil is taught to "shoot to wound". |
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Posted: 2/1/2013 1:00:36 PM EDT
[#28]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Shoot to stop the threat. this any CIV or LEO or MIL that starts talking differently is full of @#$% this is the FLETC standard line and this is the MIL ROE Standard line. Oh really? Kill is a doctrinal task. We have Kill or Capture missions. Probability of Kill is discussed for weapons capabilities. We shoot to kill. |
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Posted: 2/1/2013 1:00:46 PM EDT
[#29]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Neither, we're trained to stop the threat. (I'm mil LEO) I double tap center mass until the threat stops. If it doesn't stop I start in on some failure drills, head and pelvis shots. If it still doesn't stop then it's a terminator and I run away. Wounding or killing is not on my mind, it's as simple as making the person stop doing whatever they're doing that made me shoot at them in the first place. What happened to 2 controlled rounds COM? I've over simplified it but I did say I touble tap. It's all about the controlled pairs! |
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Posted: 2/1/2013 1:01:08 PM EDT
[#30]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Shoot to stop the threat. this any CIV or LEO or MIL that starts talking differently is full of @#$% this is the FLETC standard line and this is the MIL ROE Standard line. Is that why after conducting battle drill 1 we put a round in the head of anyone who moves while pushing through the objective? |
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Posted: 2/1/2013 1:01:56 PM EDT
[#31]
...............
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Posted: 2/1/2013 1:02:26 PM EDT
[#32]
I usually shoot the hamstring and then when they fall down, if they are crawling after me, I might shoot them in the elbows or something. I'm a ninja like that.
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Posted: 2/1/2013 1:02:27 PM EDT
[#33]
Quoted:
In LEO circles, I understant the "stop" rhetoric for legal reasons, but I laugh at it. In military circles, it is simply "kill." There is no beat around the bush. If lethal force is authorized in the ROE, it is meant to be lethal. Now, shoot to wound or kill when you shouldn't use lethal force? Yeah, that's a big Bozo no-no. That depends. There were many situations that I was in where lethal force was authorized but not encouraged. That who hearts and minds thing. There were also times where I was ordered to kill, and I didn't; I was always praised afterwards after learning the totality of the situation. That's where warning shots come into play, but that is a whole different discussion. |
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Posted: 2/1/2013 1:02:39 PM EDT
[#34]
Shoot to break contact; or shoot to kill. Depending on the situation and ROE. To say we are trained in one or the other would be incorrect.
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Posted: 2/1/2013 1:03:10 PM EDT
[#35]
Quoted:
I know what the answer is...at least I am 99.9 % sure I do, but need references. On a liberal forum there is a debate as to whether or not cops and military are trained to kill (stop the threat), or wound.. I know its the former, some are saying its the latter. Need someone who is LEO or military to end this debate. Shoot to stop the threat. Shoot until the threat no longer exists. Because we do not have Star Trek phaser technology that gives range, reliability, nor instant incapacitation we have to rely on lethal force. Quick and effective stops, in life threatening situations where you are justified in lethal force, pretty much mandate packing enough cartridge to get the job done. In other words do not compromise lethality for fear of compromising a quick and effective stop. Police are not trained to shoot to kill and are especially not trained to shoot to wound. They are trained to shoot til the threat is stopped or stop shooting if the situation is not safe. However where the lethality comes in is with all justified lethal force training is the concept of making shots count in critical locations regardless of the firearm type or chambering. This dove tails nicely into the classic notion of not using a handgun if a shotgun or rifle is available. |
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Posted: 2/1/2013 1:03:40 PM EDT
[#36]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Neither, we're trained to stop the threat. (I'm mil LEO) I double tap center mass until the threat stops. If it doesn't stop I start in on some failure drills, head and pelvis shots. If it still doesn't stop then it's a terminator and I run away. Wounding or killing is not on my mind, it's as simple as making the person stop doing whatever they're doing that made me shoot at them in the first place. What happened to 2 controlled rounds COM? That's where you start. If they keep coming, you move on to other targets (pelvic girdle, headshot, shoot gun out of their hand) Ok, not really that last one 
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Posted: 2/1/2013 1:04:24 PM EDT
[#37]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Shoot to stop the threat. this any CIV or LEO or MIL that starts talking differently is full of @#$% this is the FLETC standard line and this is the MIL ROE Standard line. Is that why after conducting battle drill 1 we put a round in the head of anyone who moves while pushing through the objective? Maybe that's why my first operational ROE included firing at anyone positively identified as hostile (and a slew of classified criteria for such an ID). Was I shooting to stop people from possessing certain identifiable features? 
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Posted: 2/1/2013 1:04:27 PM EDT
[#38]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Neither, we're trained to stop the threat. (I'm mil LEO) I double tap center mass until the threat stops. If it doesn't stop I start in on some failure drills, head and pelvis shots. If it still doesn't stop then it's a terminator and I run away. Wounding or killing is not on my mind, it's as simple as making the person stop doing whatever they're doing that made me shoot at them in the first place. What happened to 2 controlled rounds COM? That's out dated. What if you need three or five? or more? What if it's a hostage situation with just the bad guys head exposed? You defeat the threat, nobody knows how many rounds that will take, until the fight is over. |
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Posted: 2/1/2013 1:04:44 PM EDT
[#39]
Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Shoot to stop the threat. this any CIV or LEO or MIL that starts talking differently is full of @#$% this is the FLETC standard line and this is the MIL ROE Standard line. Oh really? Kill is a doctrinal task. We have Kill or Capture missions. Probability of Kill is discussed for weapons capabilities. We shoot to kill. are we talking about killing someone or stopping a threat? are you confusing the two? shoot to stop the threat IS the FLETC and MIL ROE standard. |
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Posted: 2/1/2013 1:05:28 PM EDT
[#40]
Shooting is always considered use of deadly force.
You are shooting to stop the threat, but assuming that you are likely to kill the person. Wounding is never the goal, just a possible outcome. |
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Posted: 2/1/2013 1:06:12 PM EDT
[#41]
Wouldn't shooting to wound during war be more effective in some cases? How it takes two soldiers to carry off one wounded soldier and whatnot?
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Posted: 2/1/2013 1:06:57 PM EDT
[#42]
Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Shoot to stop the threat. this any CIV or LEO or MIL that starts talking differently is full of @#$% this is the FLETC standard line and this is the MIL ROE Standard line. Is that why after conducting battle drill 1 we put a round in the head of anyone who moves while pushing through the objective? are you doing this to ensure the threat is neutralized or just because you were told too irregardless of the threat - i would caution you to remember your training as the wrong answer is UCMJ actionable. |
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Posted: 2/1/2013 1:07:11 PM EDT
[#43]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Shoot to stop the threat. this any CIV or LEO or MIL that starts talking differently is full of @#$% this is the FLETC standard line and this is the MIL ROE Standard line. Oh really? Kill is a doctrinal task. We have Kill or Capture missions. Probability of Kill is discussed for weapons capabilities. We shoot to kill. are we talking about killing someone or stopping a threat? are you confusing the two? shoot to stop the threat IS the FLETC and MIL ROE standard. I know my 10k foot vantage point is a bit different, but we shoot plenty of people to kill em. And under various ROE they don't even have to be a threat. |
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Posted: 2/1/2013 1:07:35 PM EDT
[#44]
Quoted:
Quoted:
In LEO circles, I understant the "stop" rhetoric for legal reasons, but I laugh at it. In military circles, it is simply "kill." There is no beat around the bush. If lethal force is authorized in the ROE, it is meant to be lethal. Now, shoot to wound or kill when you shouldn't use lethal force? Yeah, that's a big Bozo no-no. That depends. There were many situations that I was in where lethal force was authorized but not encouraged. That who hearts and minds thing. There were also times where I was ordered to kill, and I didn't; I was always praised afterwards after learning the totality of the situation. That's where warning shots come into play, but that is a whole different discussion. Sure, but the question relates to the use of lethal force. It might not be encouraged if it can be avoided, but - when used - the intent of lethal force is to create a lethality. Period. Warning shots are not lethal force - and are another one of the military things cops frown on for some reason.
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Posted: 2/1/2013 1:07:39 PM EDT
[#45]
I was always trained to shoot the weapon out of their hand.
With a 25mm. |
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Posted: 2/1/2013 1:08:06 PM EDT
[#46]
Quoted:
Shoot to stop the threat. This. And aim center mass. |
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Posted: 2/1/2013 1:10:07 PM EDT
[#47]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Shoot to stop the threat. this any CIV or LEO or MIL that starts talking differently is full of @#$% this is the FLETC standard line and this is the MIL ROE Standard line. Is that why after conducting battle drill 1 we put a round in the head of anyone who moves while pushing through the objective? are you doing this to ensure the threat is neutralized or just because you were told too irregardless of the threat - i would caution you to remember your training as the wrong answer is UCMJ actionable. You are about to make me get all crazy like and pull out my penis. An enemy force you are attacking in a kill zone has been deemed a threat, and the mission is to kill them. |
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Posted: 2/1/2013 1:10:30 PM EDT
[#48]
Quoted:
I was always trained to shoot the weapon out of their hand. With a 25mm. Careful, I'm not entirely convinced that all of our newbs are equipped to handle satire, no matter how obvious. |
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Posted: 2/1/2013 1:10:40 PM EDT
[#49]
Quoted:
I was always trained to shoot the weapon out of their hand. With a 25mm. I see your tab in a whole new light. 
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Posted: 2/1/2013 1:11:43 PM EDT
[#50]
Quoted:
Wouldn't shooting to wound during war be more effective in some cases? How it takes two soldiers to carry off one wounded soldier and whatnot? That's only if they get shot with a tumbling 5.56 round shot out of a Mattel M16. |
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