This was my experience. One gun would take factory 5 rd mags fine, the other one would only take "certain" factory 5 rd mags. Drums require filing to fit per gun. Mag insertion was slow, and a PITA. Often didn't lock right. Very possibly my technique, but I don't have a problem with my AK's.



In the end, my decision to offload the S12's was mostly due to 1) the issue with mags (size, capacity, price, fitment, slowness to reload, etc) and 2) the price I could get for them in this market.



I'm sure the mag issue can be corrected with the magwells, custom mags, etc available in the market, but I didn't feel like dropping that $ on them.



I grin every time I look at the Benelli in the safe, and I have 0 regrets thus far about selling the Saigas.  Which surprises me some, and is probably telling.

I passed on a Saiga and got a Benelli M2 a couple of weeks ago.  I think the Saiga would be fun, but the Benelli was on the shelf with a prepanic price tag.  I think it will serve me better.  Not saying I'll never own a Saiga, just chose to get the M2 first.  Mag extender plus replacing a couple of parts for 922r compliance and I'm happy.

Thank you Sir, I will check them out as that is where my mother in law grew up and my wife was raised not to far away


 

Saiga 12 is on my list... K-Var had some in stock last week.  Already converted $850.  A far cry from what they used to be!

I already have my Saiga IZ-340.  Its a 5.45x39.  Did the conversion myself and it is a blast to shoot.

I think I may have seen you there once, with that shotgun.

If you have some extra 12 gauge laying around, I wouldn't mind taking it out again.

Their website says they're still in Cadiz, OH

http://cadizgunworks.com/store/index.php?route=information/contact

A VEPR 12 fixes all those issues.

I worked at an importer. We got in Saiga12's quite a bit.  The biggest return problem was not cycling low brass or #7  1/2 shot.
Usually the culprit was the extractor having a very rough edge and hanging up on thr breech face. Smoothing out the outside edges of the extractor, not the face or hook helped. But you would have to really polish the mating surfaces of the carrier and hammer where they slide against each other.

And also clean up or make the gas port holes 1 size larger. I forget now what the factory size is. But I think opening t up to 5/32 helped.
Please don't rip yours apart and drill on your gas ports. Measure with gauge pins and see what you have first. And follow the angle of the gas port. It's not 90*  like an AR.

And if you don't know what the hell you are doing........leave it alone.

CDNN used to sell all the Saigas .308, .223, 7.62X39, 12 & 20 Gauge for less than $200, Usually put them on sale for $150
One of the greatest gun bargains of the Century !

Ahh ok, thank you again

 

Vepr 12 and don't look back.

It is a pretty convincing argument.  But I try to make the other guy not feel so bad about coming up short in that discussion.







 

Are they really $1200?

They will be less than that when this panic dies down. I paid $999.99 pre panic with a extra mag included.

More Vepr12's are on the way. This shipment has the factory folder pinned and welded.

Just to throw gas on the fire.......

Chinese versions of both the Saiga and Vepr are coming in.
Yep either with or without the mag well.

and they plan on running them low enough in price to push the
Russian guns out of the market........

saw them at SHOT and have one coming for testing.

Have a nice day.........

Pics?

They're a beast.  Ridiculous amounts of lead can be thrown with one.



They do take some working on to get right, but most seem to respond well if they have enough gas to begin with.  I've done all my own conversion work from the basic model.

Mine was a Friday-night, vodka-binge Russian quality control special, or should I say 'speshul'.  It should have had 3 or 4 ports and only had 2 undersized ports.  It wouldn't cycle por nada.  The correct size seems to be 4 ports at 0.093 each...so, I used a hammer, punch and hand-held drill w/ 1/8 inch bit, I just reamed out the two ports I had to equal roughy the same port area.  Some polishing of the bolt carrier group and hammer helps too - the Tapco hammer sits a little high in the Saigas.  There are some good instructions on the Saiga forum.

I've also made a few other mods, that I would recommend - The Tac47 Autoplug.  Keep in mind though, your shotgun needs to have enough gas first...the autoplug won't fix that if it doesn't.  I also added their magwell conversion, so mag changes are as fast as an AR and the mag release is on the right hand.  The conversion uses modded SGM mags and it works great - mags drop free and are a lot easier to load on a closed bolt - just ram them home.  I modded all my mags myself with a dremel.  Takes a bit of trial and error, you basicaly grind off the bump at the front, a little at the back and cut a notch for the mag release...easy.

I would say good for home protection during a riot. A shotgun with a drum just says "I'm serious".  But for HD a good old pump is the way to go.

not for HD.  No way.

Heavy as fuck

Wayyyy too fucking big

They rock and roll like crazy

Picky on ammo

I really thought I wanted one a few years ago until I had a chance to shoot one. An AK shotgun is a curiosity but there are much better choices for an HD weapon. They were also much more attractive when a basic gun was a little over $200.

I paid $169 brand new from CDNN back in 2001, it sits in the safe unfired, I thought I could convert it to a PG, like the simple conversion you can do to the rifles, but could not under the old NYS assault weapons law.
When I liberate to a free state I will convert it!
I have always been a fan of tactical shotguns. Back in the 80's I owned a USAS 12, Funny thing it was even registered in NYC under my rifle/shotgun permit, Now the NYPD firearm control division would stroke out if you even mentioned a USAS12 to them..
All was great until I received the letter from ATF stating it was declared a destructive device, Being in NY (No class 3 for civies) I had to return it where I purchased.
It was awesome, 25 round drum mag, You could almost squeeze off all 25 rounds before the shell casings started hitting the floor!

I  changed mine over to a pistol grip myself. Never had a malfunction, even when new. I keep it beside my bed with the magazine in a drawer since I have kids, buts its quick to get into action.

"Never see a cop with a Saiga 12" - MC4H

Good god that is awesome!

IMHO, I'd rather trust my life to a pump action 12 to toss lead at an intruder.

When did the USA allow importation of chinese arms again?

Or are they going to be sporter models like the SAIGA?

I could see them getting them in canada, as the have no import restrictions for chinese guns.

As for the OP.

For home defense, possible, but, I will tell you why you shouldn't.

First, I would never recommend a semi shotgun, or pistol for that matter, too much chance of a failure, and the last thing you need to do is be fucking with a jam at that time.

Second, lets say you live somewhere that has a liberal district attorney, do you REALLY want an AK shotgun with a 20 round drum on it, to be on display if you happen to be charged for a crime involving your actions?

PA is pretty clear, I am in my home, I am in the right, as long as I am fear of being injured or killed.  But, states that don't have a good castle doctrine law, it may be different.

Third, lets say they seize the gun as evidence, and don't want to play nice and give it back, are you willing to eat a SAIGA, I know it saved your life, but, its pricey.

Fourth, as noted they ARE finicky.

Me?  I have a mossberg 500, loaded with Centurion Buck and Ball, I also have a 870, with the extended tube, to ad two more, but, I play with it more, and don't want it getting bed rest.

Backup, a SW Chiefs Special, 5 shots, of ammo designed for a short barreled pistol, much nicer to shoot than a 357, and with modern ammo, they are getting closer to narrowing the gap between them.

Keep a high cap as a backup, at least you could argue you used "reasonable" weapons, before you had to go to the big stuff.

I know, it sucks not to be Rambo, but, I think its better to escalate than look like you went out with the mindset to kill because somebody knocked on your door.

shotguns were never banned from China.

I don't think semi-auto shotguns are exempt though.  

Saigas are from Russia

I see occasionally, chinese shotties coming up, I gotta research it.  But they were singles and double barrels.  Hell they pulled the heatshield off their 1897 clone, because it could mount a bayonet.

Found this:


Here's a rundown I posted a few years ago when somebody was asking about getting Chines M14 semi-auto clones imported...

There are so many different bans that effect Chinese firearms that it is very confusing.

First there was GB I's 1989 ban on the importation of "non-sporting" firearms. This is the one that caused the creation of the MAK 90 and lead to SKS's being imported with the bayonets removed and M14's being imported with fake flash hiders and no bayonet lugs.

Then there was the 1994 AWB which ended the importation of MAK 90's.

Then there was the 1994 "clarification" of munitions importation restrictions which said we were not supposed to be importing munitions from countries to which we banned the sale of munitions. Since exports of munitions to China were already banned, the State Department said that we could no longer import munitions from China. So most firearm and all ammunition importations from China stopped. This is stopped the importation of the neutered M14's. Black powder firearms and "sporting" shotguns were exempt from this ban. That's why the Norinco shotguns still kept coming in.

Then under GB II there was a ban on the importation of all Norinco products because they violated some arms trade rules. This stopped the importation of the Norinco shotguns for many years. Supposedly the Norinco ban has ended. I've also heard that it was extended.

So even if Bush II's ban on Norinco expired/expiress, Norinco M14's will still be banned by Clinton's ban on Chinese munitions. And even if that ban is ended the Chinese M14's will still have to come in without flash hiders or bayonet lugs to comply with Bush I's ban on the importation of "non-sporting" firearms.

G.H.W. Bush's 1989 "non-sporting" ban is where we get the 922(r) thing. I used to have the actual executive order numbers saved somewhere, but can't find them right now.
wilit

Then this.


I just rechecked the United States Munitions List and it looks like all firearms parts (except for sporting shotgun parts) would be banned from importation from China.

§ 121.1 -- General. The United States munitions list.

Category I-Firearms

*(a) Nonautomatic, semi-automatic and fully automatic firearms to caliber .50 inclusive, and all components and parts for such firearms. (See § 121.9 and §§ 123.16-123.19 of this subchapter.)

(b) Riflescopes manufactured to military specifications, and specifically designed or modified components therefor; firearm silencers and suppressors, including flash suppressors.

*(c) Insurgency-counterinsurgency type firearms or other weapons having a special military application (e.g. close assault weapons systems) regardless of caliber and all components and parts therefor.

(d) Technical data (as defined in § 120.21 of this subchapter) and defense services (as defined in § 120.8 of this subchapter) directly related to the defense articles enumerated in paragraphs (a) through (c) of this category. (See § 125.4 of this subchapter for exemptions.) Technical data directly related to the manufacture or production of any defense articles enumerated elsewhere in this category that are designated as Significant Military Equipment (SME) shall itself be designated SME.

Paragraph (a) says that even parts and components of firearms are "munitions" and we know from earlier that "munitions" can't be imported from China. I couldn't figure out how cheap Chinese rifle scopes were still coming in until I noticed that paragraph (b) specifies that scopes must be "manufactured to military specifications" in order to be considered "munitions"

Timeline?

Reliable in stock configuration with 5 round mags. Everything else says not nearly reliable enough for anything but a range toy. My AGP mags have such nice features as self ejection while firing and dragging followers. It is better with heavy loads. My Benilli beats it like Ike Turner  for reliability.

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Mine has run perfectly since day 1. It always fed and cycled all ammo with all mags. pre"vodka special", one of the very first. I love my gun dealer/pusher man who told me- " just buy the damn thing".











 

Same - I also have a Tromix Saiga and added a Tac-47 auto plug..... I currently run 3" 00 buck / slug alternated in my mags for HD....and can slap a mag of cheap bird shot in w/o issue.  Runs perfect.

Wathc Sinistral with his Saiga...

I have 2 Saigas.

Nice shotguns.  Mine have been 100% reliable even with birdshot.

They are fun to shoot and reliable, however for home defense (inside the home), I have a pump at the ready.  I have several pumps, but the one I have for ready is a Mossberg 500 with 18" barrel and that is it. It moves quickly and short enough.  I find the Saigas are a little long to move around corners.  I have found the wife can handle a mossberg pump better - its just that simple for us.

While a saiga is a great shotgun, it may not be superior for home defense.   Saiga is much more fun to shoot though.

I love mine.  It has been 100% reliable with even the cheapest Wal Mart low brass birdshot.  I converted it to original confiruration and broke it in with a couple hundred rounds of slugs and buckshot.  Then I started on the birdshot.  Not one issue.  I have left a loaded 5 round mag in it for a long time and it did not deform the brass.

Mine run flawlessly.  Converted both, never had an issue with ammo...it chews up everything.  I was able to get in on some good magazine deals over the past few years.  Once upon a time, MD-20 drums were going for $80 each, and you could get a set of 10 AGP 10-rounders for $100 (they were the "assemble yourself" type).

One of the big things that drove me to buy a S-12 was ammo availability.  I've never had a problem picking up a 25 or 50 shell value packs of birdshot, buckshot or slugs from anywhere.  Regardless of what AWB's may or may not be passed, shotgun ammo will always be plentiful.

NOOOOO!!!! I wanted to get one for grouse hunting

this

They're very cool, but I prefer a regular old shotgun. 870/590/930/Benelli/FNP

Tinkerer's toy.  Had one.  Fun, especially if you like constanting messing with it.  Sold it to get something I didn't have to constantly mess with.

I'd rather have an UTAS UTS-15

Months. They are being built at Molot now.