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Posted: 12/22/2012 4:01:11 PM EDT
Going around liberal bastions Facebook and Twitter.... True? Effective arguments against?
Link Posted: 12/22/2012 4:02:09 PM EDT
Originally Posted By JohnSmith6073:
Going around liberal bastions Facebook and Twitter.... True? Effective arguments against?


what on scene..I do not think so...there was still distance and travel involved
Link Posted: 12/22/2012 4:04:01 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/22/2012 4:04:31 PM EDT by Chaingun]
Where were they and were they the first responders?

I remember with Columbine the first responders set up entry teams. I don't recall an on-campus officer attempting anything, and it would be rather sad if they did nothing
Link Posted: 12/22/2012 4:06:43 PM EDT
IIRC, One of the biggest parental criticisms of Columbine was that the LEOs stood around outside while carnage was being carried out inside.

CCW inside is part of the solution. IIRC CCW inside is shown to work anecdotally. It is just that the Managed State Media does not have orders to pick up those stories and forward to national attention.

Link Posted: 12/22/2012 4:07:41 PM EDT
Columbine school resource officer was at lunch with security officer and engaged one of the murderers but missed. Allegedly put rounds into backstop (library).
Link Posted: 12/22/2012 4:07:48 PM EDT
This is why we need to arm the teachers instead.

Cops get kept busy doing school cop stuff. Truancy, smoking, checking doors, etc, etc. No issue there, but the likelyhood they are nearby when the balloon goes up is low.
Private sercurity would be like the doofuses you see at the bank.
TSA would.....well, just NO!.


That poor teacher that hid her students and told Lanza that they were in the Gym, had a chance where she could had come up and popped the guy in the face with a Glock 29. Instead she took one for her students. Still a hero, but it's the guns you don't know about......
Link Posted: 12/22/2012 4:08:39 PM EDT
I've seen that floating around, people seem to think I ran around FT Drum(or insert base here) with my M4,300 rounds and a frag all the time. We have MP's, they cant be everywhere at once. The MP's and DOD police rolled up to the building on Hood and shot him, but it was too late.
Link Posted: 12/22/2012 4:09:26 PM EDT
IIRC, VA Tech campus police was unarmed at the time.
Link Posted: 12/22/2012 4:09:39 PM EDT
Fort Hood; soldiers are not allowed to perform on base duties while armed. The FIRST armed responder stopped the incident. Shcools: It is not a mandatory thing to arm all teachers; but it should be an option when there are children present. Not one responder was armed when the shooting started; only unarmed people who did a MAJOR Ball-check and went in to do what they could. Which was not much.
It takes too friggin' long to respond when things get chaotic. A violence outbreak of any kind is quick as a gasoline fire: The explosion is over usually by the time the fire department shows up. And, so these shootings tend to be the same.
When police DO show up? Often they are a single unit, who WILL WAIT until more support officers show up. Costly seconds are lost, let alone minutes. I do not 'blame' police, they are doing what is prudent per their training. They have a whole host of other things to contend with beyond just stopping a shooter.

The ONLY way is to either meet the violence perpetrator immediately, and stop them by force.... or meet the perp and talk them out of continuing. Good luck with that.
Link Posted: 12/22/2012 4:10:09 PM EDT
What about the off duty police officer at that church in Utah or Colorado that took out that asshole bent on massacring the congregation?
Link Posted: 12/22/2012 4:10:54 PM EDT
Originally Posted By DanTSX:
This is why we need to arm the teachers instead.

Cops get kept busy doing school cop stuff. Truancy, smoking, checking doors, etc, etc. No issue there, but the likelyhood they are nearby when the balloon goes up is low.
Private sercurity would be like the doofuses you see at the bank.
TSA would.....well, just NO!.


That poor teacher that hid her students and told Lanza that they were in the Gym, had a chance where she could had come up and popped the guy in the face with a Glock 29. Instead she took one for her students. Still a hero, but it's the guns you don't know about......


Well said. You get it. Let's hope it rubs off on the rest of America.
Link Posted: 12/22/2012 4:10:57 PM EDT
i think only columbine had people in the bldg and they were rent a cops. va tech had campus security and they were nowhere near the shooter although they were on campus...they couldn't even locate cho for two hours until he offed himself. ft hood, they had base security cops but again, nowhere near the scene.
Link Posted: 12/22/2012 4:12:03 PM EDT
Sure. I wouldn't doubt that they had security guards. I seriously doubt that they were armed with anything more than pepper spray or a tazer.
Link Posted: 12/22/2012 4:12:18 PM EDT

Originally Posted By JohnSmith6073:
Going around liberal bastions Facebook and Twitter.... True? Effective arguments against?

From what I heard of all those scenes there were no police on the scene.

Unless they are talking about first responders.
Link Posted: 12/22/2012 4:12:25 PM EDT
Neither VT nor Ft had officers in the building. If you recall Hassan was actually confronted and shot by city police, not MPs. Military bases are quite soft in many parts.
Link Posted: 12/22/2012 4:12:32 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Chaingun:
Where were they and were they the first responders?

I remember with Columbine the first responders set up entry teams. I don't recall an on-campus officer attempting anything, and it would be rather sad if they did nothing


There was an guard (retired police officer) on premises who was located at another spot on campus. He was called to the area reported as where the gunfire was at. On arriving he was shot at after exiting the vehicle. He returned fire.


Link Posted: 12/22/2012 4:12:42 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Wrek:
Sure. I wouldn't doubt that they had security guards. I seriously doubt that they were armed with anything more than pepper spray or a tazer.


They were armed. They even exchanged fire, but beyond the practical reach of their sidearms.
Link Posted: 12/22/2012 4:13:00 PM EDT
Originally Posted By EasTexan:
What about the off duty police officer at that church in Utah or Colorado that took out that asshole bent on massacring the congregation?


damn good counter!
Link Posted: 12/22/2012 4:14:39 PM EDT
Originally Posted By JohnSmith6073:
Going around liberal bastions Facebook and Twitter.... True? Effective arguments against?


The only people who think those facts are important, are those who think all problems in life have black and white solutions. According to their logic, ALL PUBLIC SHOOTINGS play out the exact same way, with no differences. You really shouldn't spend any time trying to argue with those mindsets...they are functional retards. That time would be better spent writing letters to Congress or otherwise engaging in efforts to preserve our rights.
Link Posted: 12/22/2012 4:15:38 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/22/2012 4:16:08 PM EDT by ArmyInfantryVet]

Originally Posted By retgarr:
Neither VT nor Ft had officers in the building. If you recall Hassan was actually confronted and shot by city police, not MPs. Military bases are quite soft in many parts.

I was watching MSNBC about the massacre at Newtown. Using the Fort Hood incident as being proof that armed citizens wouldn't have made a difference, saying that Fort Hood was one of the most heavily armed places in the Country.

These idiots have no idea, that the military is actually very very strict about personal weapons and aren't allowed to carry on the base.

They must think Soldiers openly carry M4s around on post during normal duty hours.
Link Posted: 12/22/2012 4:17:04 PM EDT
Originally Posted By DanTSX:
This is why we need to arm the teachers instead too.

Cops get kept busy doing school cop stuff. Truancy, smoking, checking doors, etc, etc. No issue there, but the likelyhood they are nearby when the balloon goes up is low.
Private sercurity would be like the doofuses you see at the bank.
TSA would.....well, just NO!.


That poor teacher that hid her students and told Lanza that they were in the Gym, had a chance where she could had come up and popped the guy in the face with a Glock 29. Instead she took one for her students. Still a hero, but it's the guns you don't know about......


you're on it with both feet
Link Posted: 12/22/2012 4:17:24 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/22/2012 4:18:35 PM EDT by PogueMahone]
Originally Posted By ArmyInfantryVet:

Originally Posted By retgarr:
Neither VT nor Ft had officers in the building. If you recall Hassan was actually confronted and shot by city police, not MPs. Military bases are quite soft in many parts.

I was watching MSNBC about the massacre at Newtown. Using the Fort Hood incident as being proof that armed citizens wouldn't have made a difference, saying that Fort Hood was one of the most heavily armed places in the Country.

These idiots have no idea, that the military is actually very very strict about personal weapons and aren't allowed to carry on the base.

They must think Soldiers openly carry M4s around on post during normal duty hours.


the press has no idea how the military works??? that's unpossible!!!

they can't even tell soldiers and marines apart for fucks sake...
Link Posted: 12/22/2012 4:17:55 PM EDT
Originally Posted By PogueMahone:
Originally Posted By ArmyInfantryVet:

Originally Posted By retgarr:
Neither VT nor Ft had officers in the building. If you recall Hassan was actually confronted and shot by city police, not MPs. Military bases are quite soft in many parts.

I was watching MSNBC about the massacre at Newtown. Using the Fort Hood incident as being proof that armed citizens wouldn't have made a difference, saying that Fort Hood was one of the most heavily armed places in the Country.

These idiots have no idea, that the military is actually very very strict about personal weapons and aren't allowed to carry on the base.

They must think Soldiers openly carry M4s around on post during normal duty hours.


the press has no idea how the military works??? that's unpossible!!!


Another "gun-free zone".
Link Posted: 12/22/2012 4:17:55 PM EDT
Some of the libs seem to think that everybody on military bases is armed (in re the ft hood shooting). We need to correct that when we see it.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
Link Posted: 12/22/2012 4:25:04 PM EDT
Originally Posted By EasTexan:
What about the off duty police officer at that church in Utah or Colorado that took out that asshole bent on massacring the congregation?


IIRC, that was a "she" and she shot the hell out of the perp. I remember putting a congrats note on the "Women Shooters" section here. I think it was a few years back.
Link Posted: 12/22/2012 4:46:33 PM EDT
Originally Posted By JohnSmith6073:
Going around liberal bastions Facebook and Twitter.... True? Effective arguments against?


I saw a news article, written with a liberal slant (quoted various gun control sources) that made blatantly false statements about Columbine.

Since the current goal seems to be to demonize "military style" rifles, the article claimed that the first officer on the scene at Columbine attempted to enter the building, but was driven back by one of the shooters firing at him with a rifle. For starters, their guns were two 12 gauge shotguns (a pump and a double barrel) that they had illegally shortened to make them easier to conceal, a Tec9 pistol, and a 9mm carbine. From what was reported shortly after the incident, the shotguns saw the most use, with the 9mm guns being used as 'backups' for their rampage. Then there's the issue of what that officer actually said happened. At an early press conference, he stated that he was already on the campus and attempted to enter the building, but the two nuts started throwing pipebombs at him, making it impossible to even hold his position, so he retreated and waited for backup.

The last time the news media mentioned the homemade bombs used at Columbine, was shortly after the incident, and it didn't take them long to start trying to sell the story that it was the Tec9 that killed those students. Now, they are trying to slip in a claim that a lone officer couldn't have stopped it, because the shooters had an evil rifle (what rifle?).


I've also recently seen people trying to claim that there are only a few hundred defensive uses of a gun by a private individual, each year. To make this claim, they find the government data and misinterpret (either intentionally or unintentionally) the total for police shootings as being the total for private indiivduals using a gun in self-defense.
Link Posted: 12/22/2012 4:55:14 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/22/2012 5:02:17 PM EDT
If they want to bring up Columbine, remind them that Harris fired 96 shots from 10 round magazines and a further 25 from a pump shotgun.
Link Posted: 12/22/2012 5:02:44 PM EDT
Columbine did, but that cop was there because he couldn't qualify with his service pistol. Or so I recall.

VTech probably did. But were they in the right building at the right time? Doubt it. I don't know.

Fort Hood did, and those cops engaged and neutralized the murderer/terrorist, thus limiting the damage to innocents. Not sure how this fits the libtard meme of which you speak.

__________________________________________________________________
Cross-platform gun database/electronic bound book (v1.3.2) (and the original thread).
«nolite confidere in principibus, in filiis hominum quibus non est salus»
Link Posted: 12/22/2012 5:07:55 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/22/2012 5:12:14 PM EDT by Bama-Shooter]
Link Posted: 12/22/2012 5:31:28 PM EDT
There was a Jefferson County Sheriff’s Deputy who was a community resource officer at Columbine High School. Despite their injuries, two students were able to flee into the school library while Harris and Klebold were distracted by the Deputy. Harris turned his attention from shooting into the west doors of the high school to the deputy resource officer when he saw him. Harris fired about 10 shots at the deputy with his rifle before his weapon jams. The deputy fires four shots at Harris which obviously allows more students to leave the line of fire.

Basically at least two students and probably more were able to run away while Harris' attention was shifted to the deputy. Just because a school resource officer doesn't shoot and kill the active shooter doesn't mean that their presence there didn't save lives!

Link Posted: 12/22/2012 5:51:26 PM EDT
What the liberals on FB fail to understand are the laws and regulations on a DOD installation. Just because it is an Army Post, AF Base, Marine Camp or Navy Yard doesn't mean everyone is walking around armed. Unless you are an MP, AF SecFor, Master at Arms or DOD Police on duty you can't carry loaded weapon on post (there are special circumstances that only the base commander can dictate that additional non LE personnel be armed). The only variance to this if you are a city, county, state or federal LEO performing official duties on post and you are suppose to let the law enforcement operations why and when you arrive on the installation. Arms and ammunition for units assigned to these installations have specific guidelines and how they are stored and who has access to them.

The next time some liberal brings that horrible argument up ask them if they know and understand the arming policy for DOD installations; I'd bet a Buffalo Nickel they do not and think everyone just walks around all day with M-16s and all the ammo they can carry.
Link Posted: 12/22/2012 5:54:54 PM EDT
Columbine also had an AWB in place.
Link Posted: 12/22/2012 5:56:50 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Chaingun:
Where were they and were they the first responders?

I remember with Columbine the first responders set up entry teams. I don't recall an on-campus officer attempting anything, and it would be rather sad if they did nothing


There was an on campus officer at Columbine. Traded gunfire before backing off.
Link Posted: 12/22/2012 6:10:18 PM EDT
The Pearl, Mississippi school shooting was stopped by the vice principal Joel Myrick with a Colt .45 and he had to go to his car to retrieve it.

pearl shooting wiki

Appilachian Law School Shooting

According to Bridges: at the first sound of gunfire, he and fellow student Mikael Gross, unbeknownst to each other, ran to their vehicles to retrieve their personally-owned firearms[6] placed in their glove compartments. Mikael Gross, a police officer from Grifton, North Carolina retrieved a 9 mm pistol and body armor.[7] Bridges, a county sheriff's deputy from Asheville, North Carolina retrieved his .357 Magnum pistol from beneath the driver's seat of his Chevrolet Tahoe.[9] Bridges and Gross approached Odighizuwa from different angles, with Bridges yelling at Odighizuwa to drop his gun.[10] Odighizuwa then dropped his firearm and was subdued by several other unarmed students, including Ted Besen and Todd Ross.[11]

Applaw Wiki

New Life Church Shooting

California Gunshop Hostage shoots attacker and stop event

These should get you started.
Link Posted: 12/22/2012 8:14:26 PM EDT
Originally Posted By JohnSmith6073:
Going around liberal bastions Facebook and Twitter.... True? Effective arguments against?


The NIU shooting had the campus police on scene within a couple of minutes. It was pretty much a perfect response and over by the time they got there. (from what I was told by someone who was on campus that day)
Link Posted: 12/22/2012 8:26:03 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/22/2012 8:27:17 PM EDT by ArmyInfantryVet]

Originally Posted By rara1141:
Columbine also had an AWB in place.

More importantly, the federal AWB was in place when the North Hollywood happened, and they were armed with FULL AUTO AK47s and AR15s.
Link Posted: 12/22/2012 8:45:16 PM EDT
Saw it too. With this header.

"They really didn't think this one through. But, if it sells more guns, they are all for it....."




Link Posted: 12/22/2012 8:53:54 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Bama-Shooter:
Cho fired 113 9mm, 61 .22 and conducted 17 magazine changes.


That's an average of less than 10 rounds per mag... Interesting tidbit of info.

That is also a good argument that high-cap mag bans don't work.
Link Posted: 12/22/2012 8:54:18 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Boru:
Saw it too. With this header.

"They really didn't think this one through. But, if it sells more guns, they are all for it....."



So the response is:

The officer at Columbine was away at lunch, and wasn't there when the two shooters arrived.
Virginia Tech Police didn't arrive at the shooting location until 10 minutes after the shooting started.
Fort Hood soldiers are disarmed while on the base. Base Security wasn't at the shooting site when the shooting
started.
Link Posted: 12/22/2012 8:58:03 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/22/2012 9:03:39 PM EDT by DmL5]
Yes, and the Fort Hood shooting was finally stopped when armed police officers arrived. If not for that, the outcome would have been even worse.

Call them on their idiotic lies.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_Hood_shooting
Link Posted: 12/22/2012 9:01:48 PM EDT
Originally Posted By HitmanMonkey:
Some of the libs seem to think that everybody on military bases is armed (in re the ft hood shooting). We need to correct that when we see it.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile


been correcting them on that one all week...
Link Posted: 12/22/2012 9:04:37 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Lord_Grey_Boots:

Originally Posted By Boru:
Saw it too. With this header.

"They really didn't think this one through. But, if it sells more guns, they are all for it....."



So the response is:

The officer at Columbine was away at lunch, and wasn't there when the two shooters arrived.
Virginia Tech Police didn't arrive at the shooting location until 10 minutes after the shooting started.
Fort Hood soldiers are disarmed while on the base. Base Security wasn't at the shooting site when the shooting
started.


pretty much this.
Link Posted: 12/22/2012 9:06:13 PM EDT
From John Lott's website:


12/22/2012
Gun Control Advocates Misinformation by Guard in Columbine Attack

1) The guard at the Columbine High School attack did delay and that allowed many students to escape out of the building.
2) The guard was only able to delay the killers for a while because they had homemade grenades. The guard was hiding around a corner in a hallway, but when the two killers started lobbing their grenades down the hallway his position became untenable. Despite the claims to the contrary, it wasn't the "assault weapons" that were important in making it so that the guard had to back down. (Some information is available here.)
3) Finally, the officer at Columbine was there because he was such a bad shot. He was not given regular duty and was assigned to the school because it was deemed that his ability to properly shoot his gun wasn't thought to be an issue.

http://johnrlott.blogspot.com/2012/12/gun-control-advocates-misinformation-by.html

Also, President Clinton was sending officers to schools back in 2000. You can read that here: http://articles.latimes.com/2000/apr/16/news/mn-20323
No doubt, the same folks that criticize the NRA for the same idea today, supported it back then.
Since it was President Clinton's idea, all is good... NRA... bad idea.
Link Posted: 12/22/2012 9:10:13 PM EDT
Columbine had a resource officer that was trained to "retreat and wait for backup". He went to the parking lot to help direct students away from the building and I think the killers did take shots at him from a window.

We need police and security that are trained to engage active shooter.

Both VA tech and Ft Hood the actual shooting took place away from any armed security. You need to keep highlighting is that these mass-murderers are usually cowards and don't want to engage anyone that can fight back; they want easy targets. The second police showed up at VA tech and Sandy hook the murderer immediately committed suicide.
Link Posted: 12/22/2012 10:09:59 PM EDT
Originally Posted By PogueMahone:
Originally Posted By ArmyInfantryVet:

Originally Posted By retgarr:
Neither VT nor Ft had officers in the building. If you recall Hassan was actually confronted and shot by city police, not MPs. Military bases are quite soft in many parts.

I was watching MSNBC about the massacre at Newtown. Using the Fort Hood incident as being proof that armed citizens wouldn't have made a difference, saying that Fort Hood was one of the most heavily armed places in the Country.

These idiots have no idea, that the military is actually very very strict about personal weapons and aren't allowed to carry on the base.

They must think Soldiers openly carry M4s around on post during normal duty hours.


the press has no idea how the military works??? that's unpossible!!!

they can't even tell soldiers and marines apart for fucks sake...


They all look the same to me.

Link Posted: 12/22/2012 10:11:31 PM EDT
What they didn't have was armed citizens in the room.
Link Posted: 12/22/2012 10:16:17 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Bama-Shooter:
Originally Posted By MisterBrux:
IIRC, VA Tech campus police was unarmed at the time.


Some of you may have already received this information but for those who haven’t seen it I felt it would be a great benefit to you. The attached review of the Virginia Tech Active Shooter incident has a lot of info and everyone in LE should review it.


I need to read more about that. Most interesting. Is there an official report out yet online that you would recommend that goes into more detail?
Link Posted: 12/22/2012 10:18:43 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/23/2012 5:52:50 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/23/2012 5:55:04 AM EDT
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