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Posted: 12/21/2012 10:56:32 PM EDT
[#1]
bump
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Posted: 12/21/2012 11:12:31 PM EDT
[#2]
Soo....you want to CNC your own lowers and uppers but you can't figure out how to make an AR magazine.
Good luck... |
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Posted: 12/21/2012 11:14:12 PM EDT
[#3]
big heavy dies?
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Posted: 12/21/2012 11:17:07 PM EDT
[#4]
Quoted:
Soo....you want to CNC your own lowers and uppers but you can't figure out how to make an AR magazine. Good luck... Dude. It's Christmas break. Cut him some slack! 
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Posted: 12/21/2012 11:18:56 PM EDT
[#5]
I have never worked with metals but I would think you could take a bought mag and make a pattern from it.
Tear it apart and unfold it, make a pattern, I guess to fold up a piece of metal you would need a press of sorts to stamp it , then a brake to form it. So what about the spring and follower? |
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Posted: 12/21/2012 11:59:05 PM EDT
[#6]
Quoted:
I have never worked with metals but I would think you could take a bought mag and make a pattern from it. Tear it apart and unfold it, make a pattern, I guess to fold up a piece of metal you would need a press of sorts to stamp it , then a brake to form it. So what about the spring and follower? I would assume getting 2 steel cables, intertwining them to create a spring. Use same CNC machine used to lowers and uppers to make a ATF out of solid aluminum like the old Vietnam 20 rounders. It would be a rollsroyce of an ATF. you can make a hundred followers out of a bloc of aluminum. as for an AR15 mag, I don't know. Is it possible for a straight walled 25rd or 30rd mag to work favoribly? I figure a straight walled mag is easier to make than a curved. |
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Posted: 12/22/2012 12:01:25 AM EDT
[#7]
First two posts nail it... Maybe a press to run said die in. Not something you would want to buy to make a couple thousand mags with..
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Posted: 12/22/2012 12:11:48 AM EDT
[#8]
Quoted:
First two posts nail it... Maybe a press to run said die in. Not something you would want to buy to make a couple thousand mags with.. know an alternative? |
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Posted: 12/22/2012 12:26:23 AM EDT
[#9]
Weeeeelllllllll... That depends, how many mags you talking.. If I were going to start a business to produce mags, I would look into injection molding(plastics).
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Posted: 12/22/2012 12:44:39 AM EDT
[#10]
Quoted: If you can do it with an AK47 shovel. You can make a Mag. right? I want to buy a CNC machine to make my own lowers and uppers. what would i need for a USGI mag? You could probably set out a basic sheetmetal pattern in your CAD software - in fact while I've never played with the sheetmetal element of Solidworks I believe you can model it in the completed form and then create a flat pattern by "unfolding" it. Once cut out it would need to be bent accurately, so you might use your CNC to make some forming tools ie jigs or dies, which is another discussion entirely. You can't just download a 3d model off the internet and load it into the CNC machine, so if you're making receivers I guess you'll be spending lots of time learning how your CAD/CAM software works. Don't forget a press capable of providing the oomph needed to bend the material cleanly! |
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Posted: 12/22/2012 12:51:33 AM EDT
[#11]
Injection molding and stamping are expensive processes to setup. It is very expensive to get both processes started. When I started in a mold shop a cheap mold was 200 grand and then you need a molding machine to put it in. A mold to produce both sides of a mag in one shot is a good sized mold requiring a fairly large machine. For mags you'd also need an ultra sonic welder. I've made more parts for ultrasonic welders than I can count, and they aren't cheap either but are certainly cheaper than a stamping setup or molding setup.
You could mill mags out of plastic with a small CNC mill, that is the cheapest way to produce plastic parts out of high strength materials in small runs. Those 3D printers are cool but the material sucks compared to molded or machined plastics. |
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Posted: 12/22/2012 12:54:54 AM EDT
[#12]
Quoted: big heavy dies? and a 100 ton press or hammer |
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Posted: 12/22/2012 1:00:15 AM EDT
[#13]
Quoted: Quoted: If you can do it with an AK47 shovel. You can make a Mag. right? I want to buy a CNC machine to make my own lowers and uppers. what would i need for a USGI mag? You could probably set out a basic sheetmetal pattern in your CAD software - in fact while I've never played with the sheetmetal element of Solidworks I believe you can model it in the completed form and then create a flat pattern by "unfolding" it. Once cut out it would need to be bent accurately, so you might use your CNC to make some forming tools ie jigs or dies, which is another discussion entirely. You can't just download a 3d model off the internet and load it into the CNC machine, so if you're making receivers I guess you'll be spending lots of time learning how your CAD/CAM software works. Don't forget a press capable of providing the oomph needed to bend the material cleanly! you need a duplicating rig, take a template, an original lower, and the duplicating software makes your cnc model. We do this with countertops, make a pattern and the cnc machine duplicates it. |
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Posted: 12/22/2012 1:07:12 AM EDT
[#14]
Once everything calms down it will be cheaper just to buy the mags..
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Posted: 12/22/2012 1:14:15 AM EDT
[#15]
If you wanted to do it yourself all you would need is a brake to bend
it. Might not be fast or pretty but you could get the job done. 20 rounders would obviously be easier than 30 rounders using that method. You wouldn't even need a press to form the ribs if you felt like beating on it long enough. |
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Posted: 12/22/2012 1:57:04 AM EDT
[#16]
I've seen and heard of Bakelite AK magazines. Bakelite is a phenolic, which is another way of saying "micarta" which is just a layer or layers of canvas, paper, linen, fiberglass ( G10 ) epoxied together. Heck, if you could keep the dust down and moulded it in a vacuum press you could probably make a mag out of carbon fiber.
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Posted: 12/22/2012 7:30:40 AM EDT
[#17]
Quoted:
I've seen and heard of Bakelite AK magazines. Bakelite is a phenolic, which is another way of saying "micarta" which is just a layer or layers of canvas, paper, linen, fiberglass ( G10 ) epoxied together. Heck, if you could keep the dust down and moulded it in a vacuum press you could probably make a mag out of carbon fiber. I've wondered about laying up a CF or fiberglass lower. You might even be able to cobble together a cheap mold and use poured resin to do it. Wouldn't be too much different than an injection molded, glass filled plastic lower though, which I've always thought could be made strong enough for use. It doesn't seem like the lower takes too many heavy forces: - The recoil energy absorbed by the pins and to an extent through the buffer tube attachment. - The stress on the firing mechanism from the bolt recoiling against the hammer. You could mold in bushings for the pins. Are there any companies out there that make a plastic lower? |
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Posted: 12/22/2012 7:35:13 AM EDT
[#18]
Quoted:
Quoted:
First two posts nail it... Maybe a press to run said die in. Not something you would want to buy to make a couple thousand mags with.. know an alternative? Of course. But why would you need to make magazines? |
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Posted: 12/22/2012 7:40:26 AM EDT
[#19]
You need to make or have made dies. One of the left half, one for the right half. Then you spotweld them together.
There are dimensioned prints available on the internet. It might be a good time to search and save them to your hard drive. Actually making them would be a significant capital outlay. |
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Posted: 12/22/2012 7:42:52 AM EDT
[#20]
I'm all for home brewed gun parts, but the mag and it's tolerances really is vital to the proper functioning of the rifle. Hard sell.
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Posted: 12/22/2012 7:43:45 AM EDT
[#21]
Quoted:
Quoted:
I've seen and heard of Bakelite AK magazines. Bakelite is a phenolic, which is another way of saying "micarta" which is just a layer or layers of canvas, paper, linen, fiberglass ( G10 ) epoxied together. Heck, if you could keep the dust down and moulded it in a vacuum press you could probably make a mag out of carbon fiber. I've wondered about laying up a CF or fiberglass lower. You might even be able to cobble together a cheap mold and use poured resin to do it. Wouldn't be too much different than an injection molded, glass filled plastic lower though, which I've always thought could be made strong enough for use. It doesn't seem like the lower takes too many heavy forces: - The recoil energy absorbed by the pins and to an extent through the buffer tube attachment. - The stress on the firing mechanism from the bolt recoiling against the hammer. You could mold in bushings for the pins. Are there any companies out there that make a plastic lower? Carbon fiber might be an option. Hell, they are making motorcycle wheels out of it. |
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Posted: 12/22/2012 7:45:10 AM EDT
[#22]
Yes. If you're determined, you need a few pieces of wood and a couple of saws and a hammer, a vise, and always files. A hydraulic jack would be nice, but not required.
The hard part will be getting the feed lips just right. This process can be shortened by making a gage to insert inside the new magazine to serve as a guide for shaping and trimming the lips. Springs might be a headache, but they are certainly doable. I wouldn't get stuck on duplicating a rectangular coil spring, either, there are other solutions that may be easier to implement. On the other hand I can't see why a rectangular spring can't be fabricated after a little trial, especially if there is one on hand to serve as a guide for making the form. There are three obstacles that will keep us from arming ourselves; good smokeless gunpowder, primers, and failure to free our brains. The originator of this thread is a good example, he believes that CNC machinery is needed to manufacture firearms when in fact, nothing by hand tools and ingenuity are required. Dies, presses and all that are simply not required. Some of you guys need to get an education and some experience in sheet metal fabrication, this stuff isn't rocket science, but it requires skills that are not only dying, but apparently would be treated like magic if witnessed. (Come to think of it, some of it does look like magic when the really skilled guys make parts.) |
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Posted: 12/22/2012 7:46:54 AM EDT
[#23]
The trick is to make the dies and to have a heavy enough press.
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Posted: 12/22/2012 7:47:35 AM EDT
[#24]
I still have a bunch of AK drums minus internals from '93 or so... 20 yrs later still waiting for somebody to have internal kits, but never see them...
I could see buying a vintage stamping press that take 5'x5' of shop space (8' tall, or so) |
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Posted: 12/22/2012 7:53:56 AM EDT
[#25]
Quoted:
Quoted:
I've seen and heard of Bakelite AK magazines. Bakelite is a phenolic, which is another way of saying "micarta" which is just a layer or layers of canvas, paper, linen, fiberglass ( G10 ) epoxied together. Heck, if you could keep the dust down and moulded it in a vacuum press you could probably make a mag out of carbon fiber. I've wondered about laying up a CF or fiberglass lower. You might even be able to cobble together a cheap mold and use poured resin to do it. Wouldn't be too much different than an injection molded, glass filled plastic lower though, which I've always thought could be made strong enough for use. It doesn't seem like the lower takes too many heavy forces: - The recoil energy absorbed by the pins and to an extent through the buffer tube attachment. - The stress on the firing mechanism from the bolt recoiling against the hammer. You could mold in bushings for the pins. Are there any companies out there that make a plastic lower? The Carbon 15 and the Hesse lower receivers are injection molded nylon, probably 6-6 nylon, which is simply filled with short glass fibers. Probably the same material used by those unitized receivers built by our pals out west whose name escapes me. The pin bearing strength is suspect, but I've never heard of a complaint. It's easily remedied with a bushing. The forward take down lug is the weak point and the upper receiver should never be allowed to slam open, the lug will break. This is a common problem with the Armalite AR-18 rifle. It's not easily corrected without a major redesign of both lugs, there's really no way to incorporate a metal add on without a grotesque joint. I recently ran across my copy of drawings for a bolt together AR lower. This is another option that can be fabricated with nothing more than hand tools, but a mill would surely be nice. |
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Posted: 12/22/2012 8:00:03 AM EDT
[#26]
It's a cool machine that makes these. Cuts, stamps, and breaks with one rotation for the left and right sides. Spot weld to fix together. You could make one from hand tools.
Like mentioned, the gauges for quality control are most important. |
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Posted: 12/22/2012 8:01:45 AM EDT
[#27]
It would be easier to mold plastic ones using rubber molds and urethane.
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Posted: 12/22/2012 8:02:10 AM EDT
[#28]
Quoted:
There are three obstacles that will keep us from arming ourselves; good smokeless gunpowder, primers, and failure to free our brains. The originator of this thread is a good example, he believes that CNC machinery is needed to manufacture firearms when in fact, nothing by hand tools and ingenuity are required. Dies, presses and all that are simply not required. Some of you guys need to get an education and some experience in sheet metal fabrication, this stuff isn't rocket science, but it requires skills that are not only dying, but apparently would be treated like magic if witnessed. (Come to think of it, some of it does look like magic when the really skilled guys make parts.) This is a good read on the ingenuity of people that are determined to arm themselves for protection/freedom: The Ayalon Institute The Ayalon Institute is located between Nes Ziona and Rehovot. It is located on Kibbutz Hill and was made to fool the British into thinking it was a kibbutz during the British Mandate. In fact, it was a secret ammunition factory set up by the Jewish underground. |
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Posted: 12/22/2012 8:02:42 AM EDT
[#29]
Quoted:
I've seen and heard of Bakelite AK magazines. Bakelite is a phenolic, which is another way of saying "micarta" which is just a layer or layers of canvas, paper, linen, fiberglass ( G10 ) epoxied together. Heck, if you could keep the dust down and moulded it in a vacuum press you could probably make a mag out of carbon fiber. No, different material. Bakelite AK mags aren't made anything like that. |
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Posted: 12/22/2012 8:03:06 AM EDT
[#30]
Yes you could & it's Not actually that hard to do. Many years ago (around 1980) I worked for a company that made custom (Obsolete unavailable) parts for aircraft, We used to make wooden dies & form soft sheet aluminum over the die with a hammer, Then heat treat the part & it was solid as ever, We would then usually hardcoat anodize the part just like an AR15 Magazine.
I do think it would be next to impossible to make an exact copy of a 30rd AR mag due to the ridges, But you could probable make a slab sided mag that would work, adding (welding them on) strengthening bands around the mag to compensate for the lack of ridges. You would also have to file the feed lips into proper shape. Naturally a 20rd straight shaped mag would be easier to do. |
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Posted: 12/22/2012 8:05:02 AM EDT
[#31]
maybe we should start an "X Prize" for the first ARFCOM'er to make a functional homemade ar mag?
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Posted: 12/22/2012 8:05:10 AM EDT
[#32]
You could sell them the way raw milk is sold.
Magazine co-ops... 
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Posted: 12/22/2012 8:05:43 AM EDT
[#33]
Quoted:
Once everything calms down it will be cheaper just to buy the mags.. I sure hope you're right. |
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Posted: 12/22/2012 8:08:41 AM EDT
[#34]
Whats the point ? you can buy a mag for 10 bucks |
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Posted: 12/22/2012 8:09:05 AM EDT
[#35]
Tag for the unlicensed firearms production thread.
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Posted: 12/22/2012 8:11:51 AM EDT
[#36]
You people are soooo 70's
3D PRINTER for the win! |
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Posted: 12/22/2012 8:12:01 AM EDT
[#37]
Quoted:
Tag for the unlicensed firearms production thread. It is perfectly legal to make your own AR15 or AKM/AK47 receiver for your own private use, during the ban it was actually pretty common for guys to do. Search the archives & you will find many threads about this. You will also be surprised by the ingenuity of your average American. |
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Posted: 12/22/2012 8:12:33 AM EDT
[#38]
Quoted:
Whats the point ? you can buy a mag for 10 bucks Where? 
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Posted: 12/22/2012 8:14:33 AM EDT
[#39]
Quoted:
Tag for the unlicensed firearms production thread. Are you under the impression that it is not legal to make your own firearm for your own use? |
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Posted: 12/22/2012 8:15:38 AM EDT
[#40]
Just sell all the parts separately as "spare parts"
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Posted: 12/22/2012 12:35:58 PM EDT
[#41]
Quoted: Tag for the unlicensed firearms production thread. It's even legal in the UK and we've banned everything ever If I had a suitable workshop I'd love to give it a go, just because I can. No need to make one - I've got enough PMags for now - but it would be an interesting challenge. |
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Posted: 12/22/2012 12:37:34 PM EDT
[#42]
You can buy spring steel wire.
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Posted: 12/22/2012 12:43:35 PM EDT
[#43]
Not only would the mag body be pretty easy to make with a hammer form out of sheet metal, the spring would be even easier. The toughest part would be the follower.
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Posted: 12/22/2012 4:44:36 PM EDT
[#44]
Quoted:
Not only would the mag body be pretty easy to make with a hammer form out of sheet metal, the spring would be even easier. The toughest part would be the follower. Brass knuckles are sold as paper weights. Followers can be sold as some sort of decoration too. 
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Posted: 12/22/2012 4:47:01 PM EDT
[#45]
I'm not too worried about replacement springs. There are a million things that use springs, so that'd be next to impossible to regulate.
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Posted: 12/22/2012 5:41:34 PM EDT
[#46]
If there is a demand...Americans can make anything
American History has shown this. Prohibition-Moonshine Illegal Drug's Look at the weapons prisoners make in prison...Imagine what they can make on the outside |
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Posted: 12/22/2012 8:07:47 PM EDT
[#47]
Quoted:
If there is a demand...Americans can make anything American History has shown this. Prohibition-Moonshine Illegal Drug's Look at the weapons prisoners make in prison...Imagine what they can make on the outside Exactly. I'm drawing up some plans. |
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Posted: 12/22/2012 8:08:48 PM EDT
[#48]
Guy did it in Patriots so you know it's real
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Posted: 12/22/2012 8:14:53 PM EDT
[#49]
Quoted: Soo....you want to CNC your own lowers and uppers but you can't figure out how to make an AR magazine. Good luck... So, can you explain to us plebes how plotting points on cnc is harder than setting up stamping operations? |
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Posted: 12/22/2012 8:32:38 PM EDT
[#50]
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