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The_Reaper
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Posted: 12/17/2012 7:57:50 AM
Just a reminder, the Supreme Court ruled (2005?) that law enforcement has no duty to protect individuals.

This is the first instance I've seen of it. And it is down right disgusting.

LINK

Car runs off the road and into the Mississippi River.

Police and bystanders were on the scene almost instantly.

A master diver (who is also a certified rescue diver) who lives across the street from the incident was on the scene.

The car was still floating in the water, but sinking.

The officer called for other responders, but had zero interest in a rescue attempt.
The master diver wanted to attempt a rescue, but the officer refused to allow it.

A police rescue boat arrived on the scene. I've seen this thing. It is equipped with everything you can imagine.

No rescue was attempted. Nobody was trained.

They watched the car sink.

5 hours later they retrieved the dead 28 year old female driver's body from the car.

Official response from the police: "It’s pretty much a self-rescue situation"

All I'm getting from this story is that we can't count on the police to attempt a rescue.
In fact, we should count on them preventing real heros from helping.

I'm a little jaded as I lived in Moline for 11 years and thought their police force was awesome.

Hell, where I live now, you would be lucky to get a police response at all.
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Bama-Shooter
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Posted: 12/17/2012 8:01:14 AM
The Mississippi river has claimed many lives of those who went for a swim. I lived on that river for years. Going out in that water is about stupid.




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Any opinions expressed are my own and do not reflect upon any agency or organization with which I may be employed or affiliated.
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Posted: 12/17/2012 8:02:26 AM
Ban the Mississippi River
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Posted: 12/17/2012 8:12:41 AM
Castle Rock v. Gonzales
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Posted: 12/17/2012 8:14:47 AM
[Last Edit: 12/17/2012 8:16:25 AM by jerrwhy01]
I am also a Master SCUBA diver who is also a certified and trained rescue diver and to be honest I'd probably have let the car sink as well. That's a pretty dangerous situation to be in because the car is sinking and there's no telling what it will do or where is will go as it sinks. It'd really suck to have the car roll over on you and pin you on the bottom while you watch your pressure gauge run to zero.
Look, when I woke up this morning I had no plans to be sexy, but shit happens!
LightningII
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Posted: 12/17/2012 8:15:01 AM
Originally Posted By Bama-Shooter:
The Mississippi river has claimed many lives of those who went for a swim. I lived on that river for years. Going out in that water is about stupid.






so, why have police rescue boats, then?
fishing?
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Posted: 12/17/2012 8:15:33 AM
Originally Posted By Bama-Shooter:
The Mississippi river has claimed many lives of those who went for a swim. I lived on that river for years. Going out in that water is about stupid.






When my son lived in Baton Rouge we toyed with the idea of taking one of our boats out. After looking closely at the currents we decided not to do it. Stupid idea.

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Posted: 12/17/2012 8:17:04 AM
Originally Posted By The_Reaper:
...
All I'm getting from this story is that we can't count on the police to attempt a rescue.
In fact, we should count on them preventing real heros from helping.


People who wanted to rescue them could have rushed the cop - some would have got past him. I doubt the cop would have used deadly force to stop them.
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Posted: 12/17/2012 8:19:23 AM
Originally Posted By LightningII:
Originally Posted By Bama-Shooter:
The Mississippi river has claimed many lives of those who went for a swim. I lived on that river for years. Going out in that water is about stupid.






so, why have police rescue boats, then?
fishing?


Pulling someone out of the water is totally the same as mounting a water rescue of a sinking vehicle.

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Aimless
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Posted: 12/17/2012 8:20:04 AM
If it had been a marked patrol car in the river that rescue diver would have been told "Fuck it, go for i!!"
Don't be a victim of the Quote Tree crack down.Turn in your buddies for cash and prizes.
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Posted: 12/17/2012 8:20:22 AM
Originally Posted By jerrwhy01:
I am also a Master SCUBA diver who is also a certified and trained rescue diver and to be honest I'd probably have let the car sink as well. That's a pretty dangerous situation to be in because the car is sinking and there's no telling what it will do or where is will go as it sinks. It'd really suck to have the car roll over on you and pin you on the bottom while you watch your pressure gauge run to zero.


Don't bring common sense into a cop bash thread.
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Posted: 12/17/2012 8:21:32 AM
Originally Posted By Bama-Shooter:
The Mississippi river has claimed many lives of those who went for a swim. I lived on that river for years. Going out in that water is about stupid.






I agree with this. If it were a lake I would go in myself and attempt a rescue. You cannot simply jump into the Mississippi River, you WILL be swept away and likely die.

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Posted: 12/17/2012 8:22:18 AM
Originally Posted By Aimless:
If it had been a marked patrol car in the river that rescue diver would have been told "Fuck it, go for i!!"


staff trolling staff


yeah!
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Posted: 12/17/2012 8:22:45 AM
Don't drive into rivers.

If you are going to be stupid, you should also be tough.

Then again, I think if you have a FD in a town with a river in it, they should have people trained to do river rescues. But that's just me.
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Posted: 12/17/2012 8:23:19 AM
Originally Posted By Aimless:
If it had been a marked patrol car in the river that rescue diver would have been told "Fuck it, go for i!!"


Agreed

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Posted: 12/17/2012 8:24:11 AM

Originally Posted By LightningII:
Originally Posted By Bama-Shooter:
The Mississippi river has claimed many lives of those who went for a swim. I lived on that river for years. Going out in that water is about stupid.






so, why have police rescue boats, then?
fishing?
If you go in the water and can cut yourself free, smash out a window and swim to the surface they'll swing by and pick you up. Otherwise they are not competent to do more than motor around, check for PFDs and talk to chicks in bikinis. It is too much to expect the police on a rescue boat to have the equipment and training to, well, you know rescue people.

Around here the boat guys are often the least fit and able to do any kind of strenuous rescue. It's a "treat" assignment for old cops to get on seniority so they can put around on the river. But then we have a hugely obese bike cop around here too. Maybe it's not that bad in other states.

Don't be a victim of the Quote Tree crack down.Turn in your buddies for cash and prizes.
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Posted: 12/17/2012 8:26:03 AM
Originally Posted By OLY-M4gery:
Don't drive into rivers.

If you are going to be stupid, you should also be tough.

Then again, I think if you have a FD in a town with a river in it, they should have people trained to do river rescues. But that's just me.


Too busy writing citations? Yeah, I can see the logic here.

Oh, and what if the car had a mechanical failure that led it to dump into the river. I bet if that was your wife or life partner you may feel otherwise.
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Razoreye
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Posted: 12/17/2012 8:26:32 AM
If the diver really wanted he could have gone in. A dangerous situation but the cop can't do shit.
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Posted: 12/17/2012 8:26:48 AM
Originally Posted By Bama-Shooter:
The Mississippi river has claimed many lives of those who went for a swim. I lived on that river for years. Going out in that water is about stupid.



That river was in my backyard for the first 22 years of my life. It is just water. There are unsafe places on the river to swim for sure, same goes for ponds, oceans, rivers, and creeks everywhere, but a blanket statement like that is just wrong.
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Posted: 12/17/2012 8:28:54 AM
Originally Posted By scootr29:
Ban the Mississippi River


Illinois already has a river ban I think...

Witty sig line pending...
Grin
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Posted: 12/17/2012 8:29:03 AM
Originally Posted By scootr29:
Ban the Mississippi River


BAN IT ALL TO HELL
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ReallyLongAction
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Posted: 12/17/2012 8:29:07 AM
Originally Posted By scootr29:
Ban the Mississippi River women drivers





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Posted: 12/17/2012 8:30:28 AM
[Last Edit: 12/17/2012 8:31:40 AM by OLY-M4gery]
Originally Posted By HKHamartia:
Originally Posted By OLY-M4gery:
Don't drive into rivers.

If you are going to be stupid, you should also be tough.

Then again, I think if you have a FD in a town with a river in it, they should have people trained to do river rescues. But that's just me.


Too busy writing citations? Yeah, I can see the logic here.

Oh, and what if the car had a mechanical failure that led it to dump into the river. I bet if that was your wife or life partner you may feel otherwise.




Yeah, and what if aliens took control of the car and caused it to crash.

Unlikely that a vehicle would uncontrolably veer to the river, with a loss of brakes, steering, all at once.

What if my wife or life partner was hit by that idiotic mechanically unsound car, that was on it''s way to the river? What then?

Emotional argument trumped.
tc556guy
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Posted: 12/17/2012 8:30:56 AM
[Last Edit: 12/17/2012 8:35:14 AM by tc556guy]
Originally Posted By LightningII:
Originally Posted By Bama-Shooter:
The Mississippi river has claimed many lives of those who went for a swim. I lived on that river for years. Going out in that water is about stupid.






so, why have police rescue boats, then?
fishing?


They answered that in the article. To pull people out of the water who are on the surface

Originally Posted By Aimless:
Around here the boat guys are often the least fit and able to do any kind of strenuous rescue. It's a "treat" assignment for old cops to get on seniority so they can put around on the river. But then we have a hugely obese bike cop around here too. Maybe it's not that bad in other states.


We don't have a "rescue boat".
We have a lake patrol thats on the water to enforce navigation laws.
Occasionally theres a service call for stranded boaters, but we don't portray our boat as a "rescue boat"...and with funding cut backs these last few years, its only on the water for major holidays anymore.
*post contains personal opinion only and should not be considered information released in an official capacity*

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WantsToBelieve
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Posted: 12/17/2012 8:31:35 AM
I'm glad that there are people like Gordon and Shughart in the world, willing to literally walk/jump into death itself to save others.

Sometimes, even though they have badges, police just need to get the hell out of the way. Now, we won't know if that diver or anyone else could have made a difference.
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Posted: 12/17/2012 8:32:37 AM
[Last Edit: 12/17/2012 8:33:11 AM by Extorris]
Originally Posted By The_Reaper:
Just a reminder, the Supreme Court ruled (2005?) that law enforcement has no duty to protect individuals.
This is the first instance I've seen of it. And it is down right disgusting.
LINK
Car runs off the road and into the Mississippi River.
Police and bystanders were on the scene almost instantly.
A master diver (who is also a certified rescue diver) who lives across the street from the incident was on the scene.
The car was still floating in the water, but sinking.
The officer called for other responders, but had zero interest in a rescue attempt.

Neither would I.
"You do realize that you are agreeing with Extorris. When it comes to lowest common denominators...he's number 1. Good people ask themselves "What would Extorris do?" then do the opposite"- Dehammer
nick89302
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Posted: 12/17/2012 8:33:18 AM
Tag for later.

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Bama-Shooter
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Posted: 12/17/2012 8:34:08 AM
Originally Posted By Razoreye:
If the diver really wanted he could have gone in. A dangerous situation but the cop can't do shit.


Exactly.
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Posted: 12/17/2012 8:34:32 AM
Originally Posted By tc556guy:
Originally Posted By LightningII:
Originally Posted By Bama-Shooter:
The Mississippi river has claimed many lives of those who went for a swim. I lived on that river for years. Going out in that water is about stupid.






so, why have police rescue boats, then?
fishing?


They answered that in the article. To pull people out of the water who are on the surface


I'm voting yes on prop 87 to fund police submarines to rescue folks below the surface.
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Posted: 12/17/2012 8:35:03 AM
Originally Posted By The_Reaper:
Just a reminder, the Supreme Court ruled (2005?) that law enforcement has no duty to protect individuals.


Warren v DC

It was from 1981.
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Posted: 12/17/2012 8:35:49 AM
Originally Posted By Hugo_Stiglitz:
Originally Posted By Bama-Shooter:
The Mississippi river has claimed many lives of those who went for a swim. I lived on that river for years. Going out in that water is about stupid.



That river was in my backyard for the first 22 years of my life. It is just water. There are unsafe places on the river to swim for sure, same goes for ponds, oceans, rivers, and creeks everywhere, but a blanket statement like that is just wrong.


Yes, because most ponds and creeks are just like the Mississippi river. If you spent that much time near that river you know it is stupid to go in the water. To say otherwise is just stirring the pot.
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Posted: 12/17/2012 8:39:27 AM
Originally Posted By Bama-Shooter:
Originally Posted By Hugo_Stiglitz:
Originally Posted By Bama-Shooter:
The Mississippi river has claimed many lives of those who went for a swim. I lived on that river for years. Going out in that water is about stupid.



That river was in my backyard for the first 22 years of my life. It is just water. There are unsafe places on the river to swim for sure, same goes for ponds, oceans, rivers, and creeks everywhere, but a blanket statement like that is just wrong.


Yes, because most ponds and creeks are just like the Mississippi river. If you spent that much time near that river you know it is stupid to go in the water. To say otherwise is just stirring the pot.


OK, to be serious, Bama is right. I cannot attest to the upper Mississippi but at times the hydraulics of that river are downright scary. I have seen some crazy things in the 20 yrs I spent on or around that river.

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Posted: 12/17/2012 8:40:24 AM
[Last Edit: 12/17/2012 8:41:19 AM by OLY-M4gery]
Originally Posted By WantsToBelieve:
I'm glad that there are people like Gordon and Shughart in the world, willing to literally walk/jump into death itself to save others.

Sometimes, even though they have badges, police just need to get the hell out of the way. Now, we won't know if that diver or anyone else could have made a difference.


That's true.

Of course we also don't know, if the master diver had his diving gear. Nor do we know what the river conditions were, how fast it was moving, water temp, depth, how far the car was from shore, etc.

It could also be that although a water rescue sounds like a good solution, the conditions at the time made it unlikley/impossible with a high degree of risk.

http://articles.nydailynews.com/2012-11-27/news/35393482_1_rescue-dog-facebook-page-surges

Dog gets pulled into surf, teenager goes after dog, parents go after teenager, 3 people drown, dog gets to shore on it's own.
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Posted: 12/17/2012 8:42:29 AM
Originally Posted By LightningII:
Originally Posted By Bama-Shooter:
The Mississippi river has claimed many lives of those who went for a swim. I lived on that river for years. Going out in that water is about stupid.






so, why have police rescue recovery boats, then?
fishing?


Fixed ti for ya....
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Posted: 12/17/2012 8:45:14 AM

Originally Posted By HKHamartia:
Originally Posted By Aimless:
If it had been a marked patrol car in the river that rescue diver would have been told "Fuck it, go for i!!"


staff trolling staff


yeah!

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Hugo_Stiglitz
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Posted: 12/17/2012 8:45:58 AM
Originally Posted By Bama-Shooter:
Originally Posted By Hugo_Stiglitz:
Originally Posted By Bama-Shooter:
The Mississippi river has claimed many lives of those who went for a swim. I lived on that river for years. Going out in that water is about stupid.



That river was in my backyard for the first 22 years of my life. It is just water. There are unsafe places on the river to swim for sure, same goes for ponds, oceans, rivers, and creeks everywhere, but a blanket statement like that is just wrong.


Yes, because most ponds and creeks are just like the Mississippi river. If you spent that much time near that river you know it is stupid to go in the water. To say otherwise is just stirring the pot.


I'd venture to say I spent more time on and in that river than I've spent doing any singular thing outside of school during those years. Yes I'm a born and raised river rat.

FWIW, I'm not faulting the cops/rescue squad. IMO car pilots are ultimately responsible for where they wind up, and expecting someone else to save you from ANY situation is stupid.

I'm just adressing the general comment on "the water", 90% of it is perfectly safe.
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Posted: 12/17/2012 8:47:58 AM
Originally Posted By LightningII:
Originally Posted By Bama-Shooter:
The Mississippi river has claimed many lives of those who went for a swim. I lived on that river for years. Going out in that water is about stupid.






so, why have police rescue boats, then?
fishing?


Dog and pony show for burning up their Homeland Security grants. Lots of waste and abuse, all over the US.

Locally, we didn't raise sales tax by one penny to fund the police bureaucracy. They sing and parrot that they can't respond to calls because of it while obviously sandbagging, and continuing to waste funds on fancy equipment. The sheep never notice the politics, only the rhetoric.
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Aimless
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Posted: 12/17/2012 8:48:56 AM

Originally Posted By OLY-M4gery:
Originally Posted By WantsToBelieve:
I'm glad that there are people like Gordon and Shughart in the world, willing to literally walk/jump into death itself to save others.

Sometimes, even though they have badges, police just need to get the hell out of the way. Now, we won't know if that diver or anyone else could have made a difference.


That's true.

Of course we also don't know, if the master diver had his diving gear. Nor do we know what the river conditions were, how fast it was moving, water temp, depth, how far the car was from shore, etc.

It could also be that although a water rescue sounds like a good solution, the conditions at the time made it unlikley/impossible with a high degree of risk.

http://articles.nydailynews.com/2012-11-27/news/35393482_1_rescue-dog-facebook-page-surges

Dog gets pulled into surf, teenager goes after dog, parents go after teenager, 3 people drown, dog gets to shore on it's own.
He had his gear, was 10 feet away and the car was near shore and mostly out of the water. The police officer assumed because there was no plate that it was stolen and no one was in it so he ordered the diver to stay away. Oops. Oh well.
Don't be a victim of the Quote Tree crack down.Turn in your buddies for cash and prizes.
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Posted: 12/17/2012 8:49:00 AM
Originally Posted By Extorris:
Originally Posted By The_Reaper:
Just a reminder, the Supreme Court ruled (2005?) that law enforcement has no duty to protect individuals.
This is the first instance I've seen of it. And it is down right disgusting.
LINK
Car runs off the road and into the Mississippi River.
Police and bystanders were on the scene almost instantly.
A master diver (who is also a certified rescue diver) who lives across the street from the incident was on the scene.
The car was still floating in the water, but sinking.
The officer called for other responders, but had zero interest in a rescue attempt.

Neither would I.


Did you and Runcible move to Boca Raton yet?

Wait until you see the canals we have down here. They're not full of water. They're full of black hole. When somebody goes in one, it may be twenty years before the water level drops enough that part of the car sticks out and they say, "That's what happened to that guy!"
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Aimless
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Posted: 12/17/2012 8:49:35 AM

Originally Posted By armoredsaint:

Originally Posted By HKHamartia:
Originally Posted By Aimless:
If it had been a marked patrol car in the river that rescue diver would have been told "Fuck it, go for i!!"


staff trolling staff


yeah!

Pit time? Battle of the Demi-gods!
You should see the staff forum. Battle of the middle aged gun dudes!

Don't be a victim of the Quote Tree crack down.Turn in your buddies for cash and prizes.
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Posted: 12/17/2012 8:50:18 AM
Originally Posted By wildearp:
Originally Posted By LightningII:
Originally Posted By Bama-Shooter:
The Mississippi river has claimed many lives of those who went for a swim. I lived on that river for years. Going out in that water is about stupid.






so, why have police rescue boats, then?
fishing?


Dog and pony show for burning up their Homeland Security grants. Lots of waste and abuse, all over the US.

Locally, we didn't raise sales tax by one penny to fund the police bureaucracy. They sing and parrot that they can't respond to calls because of it while obviously sandbagging, and continuing to waste funds on fancy equipment. The sheep never notice the politics, only the rhetoric.


Can those grants be used to obtain vast stores of ammo?
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tc556guy
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Posted: 12/17/2012 8:50:27 AM
Originally Posted By wildearp:

Dog and pony show for burning up their Homeland Security grants. Lots of waste and abuse, all over the US.

Locally, we didn't raise sales tax by one penny to fund the police bureaucracy. They sing and parrot that they can't respond to calls because of it while obviously sandbagging, and continuing to waste funds on fancy equipment. The sheep never notice the politics, only the rhetoric.


No Homeland security funding for boat patrols here.
What "fancy equipment" are your local LEAs wasting money on in your opinion?
*post contains personal opinion only and should not be considered information released in an official capacity*

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Extorris
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Posted: 12/17/2012 8:51:25 AM
Originally Posted By sigp226:
Originally Posted By Extorris:
Originally Posted By The_Reaper:
Just a reminder, the Supreme Court ruled (2005?) that law enforcement has no duty to protect individuals.
This is the first instance I've seen of it. And it is down right disgusting.
LINK
Car runs off the road and into the Mississippi River.
Police and bystanders were on the scene almost instantly.
A master diver (who is also a certified rescue diver) who lives across the street from the incident was on the scene.
The car was still floating in the water, but sinking.
The officer called for other responders, but had zero interest in a rescue attempt.

Neither would I.

Wait until you see the canals we have down here. They're not full of water. They're full of black hole. When somebody goes in one, it may be twenty years before the water level drops enough that part of the car sticks out and they say, "That's what happened to that guy!"

No training in any kind of water rescue stuff so there's no way I'm going in.
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Aimless
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Posted: 12/17/2012 8:53:01 AM

Originally Posted By tc556guy:
Originally Posted By wildearp:

Dog and pony show for burning up their Homeland Security grants. Lots of waste and abuse, all over the US.

Locally, we didn't raise sales tax by one penny to fund the police bureaucracy. They sing and parrot that they can't respond to calls because of it while obviously sandbagging, and continuing to waste funds on fancy equipment. The sheep never notice the politics, only the rhetoric.


No Homeland security funding for boat patrols here.
What "fancy equipment" are your local LEAs wasting money on in your opinion?

I swear to you I saw a Border Patrol agent on an official Border Patrol bike with the whole bike cop outfit on pedalling along the Oswego Canal this fall
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Posted: 12/17/2012 8:56:53 AM
Originally Posted By Aimless:

I swear to you I saw a Border Patrol agent on an official Border Patrol bike with the whole bike cop outfit on pedalling along the Oswego Canal this fall


Ok, is it unusual to see BP guys in your area?
Or is it the bike patrol aspect of it?
Maybe they've found that bikes have some utility in their patrol work.

On another note, are you recovered yet?
*post contains personal opinion only and should not be considered information released in an official capacity*

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Posted: 12/17/2012 8:57:31 AM
The day after the accident, Deputy Fire Chief Ike Sederstrom was asked that question.

“It’s pretty much a self-rescue situation,” he said. “Even if the fire station is a block away, the chances of getting down there, getting to a person in the vehicle, in 40-degree water, in those conditions, is pretty slim.”

He described conditions on the river early Monday as cold, windy, choppy and dangerous.



Even the firefighters are in on it.

So it was dark and adverse weather conditions.
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Posted: 12/17/2012 8:58:27 AM
Davenport Fire Chief Lynn Washburn said her department would have been in a similar situation.

“We do not have a dive team,” she said. “All we can do, if someone is in the water, we can pull them onto a boat. If it (a vehicle) is two feet off shore, our people could be held by a rescue line, but they can’t perform a rescue in the river because they don’t have training.”

To attempt to pull someone from a submerged or sinking vehicle, Washburn said, firefighters would have to be certified divers, equipped with weights, air tanks and specialized underwater equipment for getting inside a vehicle.




More firefighters are in on it.
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Posted: 12/17/2012 8:59:24 AM
Clark, who is a certified rescue diver with experience in icy water, said he understands the danger in attempting a rescue in a situation like the one he encountered right outside his front door.

“I have a lot of respect for police and firefighters and for those divers,” he said. “Someone could drown attempting a rescue like that.



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Posted: 12/17/2012 8:59:48 AM
During a radio interview of the diver's wife, someone mentioned a similar situation that happened here a few years ago.

Car in the water.

Driver was rescued.

Turns out the driver had an seisure of some kind, or ministroke, I can't remember what.

Regardless, it wasn't negligence, or intentional. And the driver was rescued and is fine.

But would have drown if not pulled from the vehicle.

There are reasons a car can go into the water that aren't evil.

Maybe the lady was drunk, stoned, suicidal, or already dead. Who knows.
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Posted: 12/17/2012 9:01:20 AM
Originally Posted By Extorris:
Originally Posted By sigp226:
Originally Posted By Extorris:
Originally Posted By The_Reaper:
Just a reminder, the Supreme Court ruled (2005?) that law enforcement has no duty to protect individuals.
This is the first instance I've seen of it. And it is down right disgusting.
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Car runs off the road and into the Mississippi River.
Police and bystanders were on the scene almost instantly.
A master diver (who is also a certified rescue diver) who lives across the street from the incident was on the scene.
The car was still floating in the water, but sinking.
The officer called for other responders, but had zero interest in a rescue attempt.

Neither would I.

Wait until you see the canals we have down here. They're not full of water. They're full of black hole. When somebody goes in one, it may be twenty years before the water level drops enough that part of the car sticks out and they say, "That's what happened to that guy!"

No training in any kind of water rescue stuff so there's no way I'm going in.


That always mystified me about NYC. The place is surrounded by water, much of which can easily drown an adult who can swim. Yet water rescue training is negligible.
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Posted: 12/17/2012 9:01:39 AM
Originally Posted By Bama-Shooter:
The day after the accident, Deputy Fire Chief Ike Sederstrom was asked that question.

“It’s pretty much a self-rescue situation,” he said. “Even if the fire station is a block away, the chances of getting down there, getting to a person in the vehicle, in 40-degree water, in those conditions, is pretty slim.”

He described conditions on the river early Monday as cold, windy, choppy and dangerous.



Even the firefighters are in on it.

So it was dark and adverse weather conditions.


At least the fire fighters didnt stop a master diver from helping when they wouldnt
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