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Posted: 11/19/2012 8:39:12 AM EST
Get ready for the legislature to deal with this...


P­eople line up to legally make untraceable guns

SAN DIEGO - A long line of people snaked out of a North County machine shop on a recent Sunday. The customers were there to build a gun.

Customers do not get to the machine shop until after they are checked out by Ares Armor in Oceanside. Team 10 promised not to reveal the location of the actual machine shop.

Team 10 purchased a piece of aluminum and watched as it was turned into a receiver for an AR-15. It can take four or five hours to do this, depending on how busy the shop is. Inside that machine shop is a computer-controlled milling machine that cuts out the aluminum.

What Team 10 ended up with was a receiver that can have parts added to it, such as the trigger, the barrel, the stock and the clip. Team 10 fired the AR-15 at a nearby range when the receiver was finished and it worked just fine.












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Link Posted: 11/19/2012 8:40:46 AM EST
[Last Edit: 11/19/2012 8:42:02 AM EST by millfire517]
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Now to save up enough money for a mill.
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Link Posted: 11/19/2012 8:42:15 AM EST
I wish shops up here would do that.
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Link Posted: 11/19/2012 8:44:40 AM EST
Awesome!

How long before possessing a CAD/CAM file is treated the same as "intent to manufacture"?

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Link Posted: 11/19/2012 8:47:27 AM EST
Why is it so fascinating that with a mill and a chunk of aluminum, you can wait 4 hours and make an AR lower....
We the unwilling, lead by the unknowing, do the impossible for the ungrateful. We have done so much, with so little, for so long we are now qualified to do anything with nothing.

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Link Posted: 11/19/2012 8:49:55 AM EST
I think that machine shop is in trouble with the ATF if it's creating and selling 100% lowers without an FFL.

They'd be fine with 80% lowers.

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Link Posted: 11/19/2012 8:51:38 AM EST

Originally Posted By peekay:
I think that machine shop is in trouble with the ATF if it's creating and selling 100% lowers without an FFL.

They'd be fine with 80% lowers.


Wouldn't the shop be able to sell the billet and then rent out the mill? As long as the customer pushes the start button, aren't they making the receiver?
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Link Posted: 11/19/2012 8:51:53 AM EST
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Link Posted: 11/19/2012 8:53:02 AM EST
[Last Edit: 11/19/2012 8:53:34 AM EST by SleeperShooter]
In before all the neighborhood dogs get shot, Lee Paige is wounded in the process, and then all CAD/CAM machines have to be registered with the ATF.

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Link Posted: 11/19/2012 8:54:39 AM EST
Trying to get a MD build party together, except that...

1) MDHTF is a buncha bums.
2) Somebody still has my jigs.

You know who you are, ya punk.

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Link Posted: 11/19/2012 8:55:25 AM EST
Will not end well, Kristi Tool tried the same game and was fucked by ATF like a truck stop whore.

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Link Posted: 11/19/2012 8:56:19 AM EST
Cool. I like this "Build-a-bear workshop" concept.

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Link Posted: 11/19/2012 8:56:52 AM EST
I wish I had the equipment to do this.

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Link Posted: 11/19/2012 8:57:02 AM EST
[Last Edit: 11/19/2012 8:58:56 AM EST by California_Kid]

Originally Posted By millfire517:
In

Now to save up enough money for a mill.

I sleep better at night knowing there is a milling machine and a bunch of tooling in the garage.


I have one that looks exactly like that, except it has an A2 upper.

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Link Posted: 11/19/2012 8:57:56 AM EST

As long as it's the individual doing the work (pressing the start button) it doesn't matter who owns the tools.

We need a shop like this in every mall....kind of like build a bear for adults

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Link Posted: 11/19/2012 8:58:56 AM EST
Talk about one of those things for which you should not seek publicity...

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Link Posted: 11/19/2012 8:59:06 AM EST
Oh, a hit piece about guns? Color me surprised.

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Link Posted: 11/19/2012 9:03:07 AM EST
[Last Edit: 11/19/2012 9:04:11 AM EST by Spade]
Originally Posted By nobodyg17:
Oh, a hit piece about guns? Color me surprised.


It's amazing how many gun people will still happily talk to fucking journalists.

They're not on our side, people. Knock it off.

Local gun store apparently decided to invite Morgan fucking Spurlock to hang out with them at a gunshow. I'm holding off on a planned purchase until I see just how anti-gun the piece turns out to be.
ETA: I think it might be a CNN thing too.

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Link Posted: 11/19/2012 9:03:41 AM EST
The purpose of fighting is to win. There is no possible victory in
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Link Posted: 11/19/2012 9:04:47 AM EST
Originally Posted By brassburn:
Talk about one of those things for which you should not seek publicity...


Agree, no op-sec.

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Link Posted: 11/19/2012 9:09:32 AM EST
Team 10... on the cutting edge of 10 years ago.
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Link Posted: 11/19/2012 9:10:11 AM EST
ATF soon to get some more mileage out of Obummer's "you didn't build that" line.

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Link Posted: 11/19/2012 9:15:58 AM EST
I love the video reference to the CNC machine as "being able to cut through metal like a hot knife through butter". That reminded me of Slick Willy with his "Teflon coated bullets" HOLLYWOOD BS. so I guess CNC ban/registration/destruction will commence Jan 1, 2013?

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Link Posted: 11/19/2012 9:18:49 AM EST
Originally Posted By VacaDuck:

Originally Posted By peekay:
I think that machine shop is in trouble with the ATF if it's creating and selling 100% lowers without an FFL.

They'd be fine with 80% lowers.


Wouldn't the shop be able to sell the billet and then rent out the mill? As long as the customer pushes the start button, aren't they making the receiver?


I wouldn't want to poke the atf with a stick, but, I believe you're correct.

If they signed a rental agreement, loaded the machine and pushed the start button, how could you legally say that they didn't make the part?

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Link Posted: 11/19/2012 9:19:14 AM EST
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Link Posted: 11/19/2012 9:19:52 AM EST
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Link Posted: 11/19/2012 9:25:56 AM EST
Originally Posted By peekay:
I think that machine shop is in trouble with the ATF if it's creating and selling 100% lowers without an FFL.

They'd be fine with 80% lowers.



You go into Ares Armor and buy an 80% lower (or bring your own), and on the first three Sundays of each month, you drive to the machine shop, pay them cash, and press the button to start the machine. If you want, Ares then holds a build class so everyone can assemble the rifle (with a kit they sell). Pretty smart, actually, and I've been planning to go get one done.

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Link Posted: 11/19/2012 9:29:13 AM EST
[Last Edit: 11/19/2012 9:30:15 AM EST by 1Andy2]
Originally Posted By Ridgerunner9876:
Originally Posted By VacaDuck:

Originally Posted By peekay:
I think that machine shop is in trouble with the ATF if it's creating and selling 100% lowers without an FFL.

They'd be fine with 80% lowers.


Wouldn't the shop be able to sell the billet and then rent out the mill? As long as the customer pushes the start button, aren't they making the receiver?


I wouldn't want to poke the atf with a stick, but, I believe you're correct.

If they signed a rental agreement, loaded the machine and pushed the start button, how could you legally say that they didn't make the part?


Now think about investment casting. Molten aluminum in a crucible in a swivel with a lever attached to it. Five different guys take hold of the lever to pour the metal.

Who made the receiver?


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Link Posted: 11/19/2012 9:34:26 AM EST
Originally Posted By 1387Delta:


Ares Armor in Oceanside. Team 10 promised not to reveal the location of the actual machine shop.



A 2 second Google search found their address....


Point being, why mention the name of the company to begin with, when the media KNOWS that people can find the info??

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Link Posted: 11/19/2012 9:36:41 AM EST
What makes this not illegal or legal? Is it like bathtub booze? I can make as much as I want for personal consumption or something?
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Link Posted: 11/19/2012 9:43:13 AM EST
The Dems there will ban this.


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Link Posted: 11/19/2012 9:43:30 AM EST
Originally Posted By Hawcer:

As long as it's the individual doing the work (pressing the start button) it doesn't matter who owns the tools.

We need a shop like this in every mall....kind of like build a bear for adults


I can picture it in my mind. You start building the receiver. Then you go to a bin of stocks, a bin of LPK's. Next comes a wall of uppers. They could have different colored stocks, grips, and handguards. When you are done building you get to name it and they hand you your gun and a balloon.
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Link Posted: 11/19/2012 9:45:45 AM EST
They had a roll your own cigarette store in Brooklyn a while back. I like business that figure out creative ways to tell the govt to FO.

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Link Posted: 11/19/2012 9:46:06 AM EST
[Last Edit: 11/19/2012 9:48:10 AM EST by learath]
Originally Posted By rangermonroe:
Awesome!

How long before possessing a CAD/CAM file is treated the same as "intent to manufacture"?


Don't worry man, constructive possession is bullshit, and the government can be trusted with unlimited power.

ETA:
Originally Posted By Ridgerunner9876:
Originally Posted By VacaDuck:

Originally Posted By peekay:
I think that machine shop is in trouble with the ATF if it's creating and selling 100% lowers without an FFL.

They'd be fine with 80% lowers.


Wouldn't the shop be able to sell the billet and then rent out the mill? As long as the customer pushes the start button, aren't they making the receiver?


I wouldn't want to poke the atf with a stick, but, I believe you're correct.

If they signed a rental agreement, loaded the machine and pushed the start button, how could you legally say that they didn't make the part?


It's trivial. Just scream "YOU BABY-COP-MURDERER!" Works every time in CA courts, and most of the time in non-ca courts.

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Link Posted: 11/19/2012 9:46:13 AM EST
I wonder if you have to be a CA resident to do this?

... and what their prices are?

... and if the local Maker shop with CNC mills and 3d scanners objects to this kind of thing?
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Link Posted: 11/19/2012 9:49:02 AM EST
I have been thinking about doing this. I have a cnc mill that i can use anytime. Do i really need the jig if i am going to use a cnc mill? They appear to be for use with a drill press.

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Link Posted: 11/19/2012 9:49:24 AM EST
Originally Posted By mcnizzle:
Originally Posted By Hawcer:

As long as it's the individual doing the work (pressing the start button) it doesn't matter who owns the tools.

We need a shop like this in every mall....kind of like build a bear for adults


I can picture it in my mind. You start building the receiver. Then you go to a bin of stocks, a bin of LPK's. Next comes a wall of uppers. They could have different colored stocks, grips, and handguards. When you are done building you get to name it and they hand you your gun and a balloon.


You laugh, but if "Build A Gun" existed I would be there all the time.
Then they would have an indoor shooting range to fire the gun after.

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Link Posted: 11/19/2012 9:51:06 AM EST

Originally Posted By BTooneUSMMA:
Originally Posted By peekay:
I think that machine shop is in trouble with the ATF if it's creating and selling 100% lowers without an FFL.

They'd be fine with 80% lowers.



You go into Ares Armor and buy an 80% lower (or bring your own), and on the first three Sundays of each month, you drive to the machine shop, pay them cash, and press the button to start the machine. If you want, Ares then holds a build class so everyone can assemble the rifle (with a kit they sell). Pretty smart, actually, and I've been planning to go get one done.
This will not end well for Ares Armor.


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Link Posted: 11/19/2012 9:51:11 AM EST

Originally Posted By BTooneUSMMA:
Originally Posted By peekay:
I think that machine shop is in trouble with the ATF if it's creating and selling 100% lowers without an FFL.

They'd be fine with 80% lowers.



You go into Ares Armor and buy an 80% lower (or bring your own), and on the first three Sundays of each month, you drive to the machine shop, pay them cash, and press the button to start the machine. If you want, Ares then holds a build class so everyone can assemble the rifle (with a kit they sell). Pretty smart, actually, and I've been planning to go get one done.

Ahhhh... much better.


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Link Posted: 11/19/2012 9:54:42 AM EST
It's exactly the idea I had 10+ years ago. Program a CNC to make a receiver, hand customer a raw forging or whatever, they put it in the machine and hit the start button.
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Link Posted: 11/19/2012 9:56:06 AM EST
Originally Posted By VacaDuck:

Originally Posted By peekay:
I think that machine shop is in trouble with the ATF if it's creating and selling 100% lowers without an FFL.

They'd be fine with 80% lowers.


Wouldn't the shop be able to sell the billet and then rent out the mill? As long as the customer pushes the start button, aren't they making the receiver?


I believe the legal term would be facilitation, or party to a crime.

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Link Posted: 11/19/2012 9:58:44 AM EST
Originally Posted By PSI:
Originally Posted By VacaDuck:

Originally Posted By peekay:
I think that machine shop is in trouble with the ATF if it's creating and selling 100% lowers without an FFL.

They'd be fine with 80% lowers.


Wouldn't the shop be able to sell the billet and then rent out the mill? As long as the customer pushes the start button, aren't they making the receiver?


I believe the legal term would be facilitation, or party to a crime.



So is Bridgeport part of the criminal conspiracy, too?
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Link Posted: 11/19/2012 10:01:52 AM EST

Originally Posted By PSI:
Originally Posted By VacaDuck:

Originally Posted By peekay:
I think that machine shop is in trouble with the ATF if it's creating and selling 100% lowers without an FFL.

They'd be fine with 80% lowers.


Wouldn't the shop be able to sell the billet and then rent out the mill? As long as the customer pushes the start button, aren't they making the receiver?


I believe the legal term would be facilitation, or party to a crime.

But...what crime? If the guy who puts the block in the jig, sets it up, and presses "start" is the owner of the (soon to be) gun, then no crime took place.

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Link Posted: 11/19/2012 10:01:55 AM EST
[Last Edit: 11/19/2012 10:03:08 AM EST by neilfj]
Sounds exactly like what Rick Celata of KTOrdnance.com was doing 10 yrs ago, shortly before ATF raided his shop and confiscated everything and charged him with a bunch of stuff. I think most of the charges have been dropped/resolved, but last I knew, he still hasn't gotten back everything they confiscated (personal firearms, tooling, computers email lists, stock and inventory). Hope Ares has better luck.

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Link Posted: 11/19/2012 10:02:08 AM EST
Originally Posted By 1Andy2:
Originally Posted By PSI:
Originally Posted By VacaDuck:

Originally Posted By peekay:
I think that machine shop is in trouble with the ATF if it's creating and selling 100% lowers without an FFL.

They'd be fine with 80% lowers.


Wouldn't the shop be able to sell the billet and then rent out the mill? As long as the customer pushes the start button, aren't they making the receiver?


I believe the legal term would be facilitation, or party to a crime.



So is Bridgeport part of the criminal conspiracy, too?


Along with the electrical utility, the builder of the building and the aluminum supplier.

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Link Posted: 11/19/2012 10:06:00 AM EST

Originally Posted By The_Beer_Slayer:
this is not good guys

Looks like freedom to me. It's the anti-freedom government response that may not be good.
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Link Posted: 11/19/2012 10:08:44 AM EST

Originally Posted By VacaDuck:

Originally Posted By peekay:
I think that machine shop is in trouble with the ATF if it's creating and selling 100% lowers without an FFL.

They'd be fine with 80% lowers.


Wouldn't the shop be able to sell the billet and then rent out the mill? As long as the customer pushes the start button, aren't they making the receiver?
That's exactly what appears to be going on. Time will tell how ATF/California DOJ goes about destroying that machine shop.

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Link Posted: 11/19/2012 10:08:55 AM EST

Originally Posted By learath:
Originally Posted By 1Andy2:
Originally Posted By PSI:
Originally Posted By VacaDuck:

Originally Posted By peekay:
I think that machine shop is in trouble with the ATF if it's creating and selling 100% lowers without an FFL.

They'd be fine with 80% lowers.


Wouldn't the shop be able to sell the billet and then rent out the mill? As long as the customer pushes the start button, aren't they making the receiver?


I believe the legal term would be facilitation, or party to a crime.



So is Bridgeport part of the criminal conspiracy, too?


Along with the electrical utility, the builder of the building and the aluminum supplier.

And the local city government. They issued the business license.
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Link Posted: 11/19/2012 10:11:15 AM EST
[Last Edit: 11/19/2012 10:13:19 AM EST by rippersde50]

Originally Posted By motoguy:

Originally Posted By PSI:
Originally Posted By VacaDuck:

Originally Posted By peekay:
I think that machine shop is in trouble with the ATF if it's creating and selling 100% lowers without an FFL.

They'd be fine with 80% lowers.


Wouldn't the shop be able to sell the billet and then rent out the mill? As long as the customer pushes the start button, aren't they making the receiver?


I believe the legal term would be facilitation, or party to a crime.

But...what crime? If the guy who puts the block in the jig, sets it up, and presses "start" is the owner of the (soon to be) gun, then no crime took place.
You're not thinking like the our Government now does. This setup is bypassing all those restrictions the CA and Fed Government have put into place, you know for our protection. They must be made an example of (my guess is they will be). They're not breaking any law? Fuck it, raid their shop, tie them up in court for years, bankrupt them and make a big story out of it so no one dares do it again.


Just to be clear I think it's pretty cool what they're doing but they better watch their corn holes.


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  • Joined Feb 2008
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USA MI, USA
Link Posted: 11/19/2012 10:13:22 AM EST
There is a guy in Jackson, MI who does something similar. His setup, though, is a class on making the gun, and then he buys the gun from the students (I dunno if/what he charges for the class, but it's a way for him to teach people how to make them and then he does the paperwork to buy it from them as a dealer in the end).

Either way, fun field-trip!
-Shane
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Link Posted: 11/19/2012 10:18:30 AM EST
+1 to what Ripper said

There's very little difference between being found guilty of a crime and being charged of a crime (having inventory and assets held and then having to defend yourself)... financially speaking, either can ruin a business.

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