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Posted: 11/9/2012 5:51:23 AM EST
[Last Edit: 11/10/2012 2:27:59 PM EST by d90king]
http://www.theakforum.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?p=1476884#p1476884

http://soldiersystems.net/2012/11/08/cqb-training-lets-be-careful-out-there/

In light of what happened thispast Sunday night.
Due to assumptions and not taking all steps I could have taken that may have prevented the tragedy, my good friend and amazing human being Gene Smithson was severely injured during a live fire training.
Gene is in the hospital in Dallas recovering from his injuries. All I ask for is for your prayers and support for Gene during this trying time and then during lenghty recovery process.
All responsibility for what happened lies with me and nobody else. I will do my best to support Gene and his loved ones, his school for as long as needed.
Sonny Puzikas


It happened during a shoot house portion, Gene and a student was doing an AAR after a run in the house. Sonny Puzikas enters first room engages targets (no lights). Gene and student did not positively ID their presence in the second room, Sonny goes into room two, engages target with failure drill with Gene standing in front of that target and the student nearby. Two to abdomen, one to the arm. Sonny shooting under no light at a target he previously set up. But the problem compounded when Sonny did not account for all people in the class, the people in the shoot house upon hearing the shots, did not ID their presence, and shooting in low light with out a light to ID target.......
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Posted: 11/9/2012 6:06:06 AM EST
[Last Edit: 11/9/2012 6:09:21 AM EST by smokiexd45]
Damn.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?p=9688250

It happened during a shoot house portion, Gene and a student was doing an AAR after a run in the house. Sonny Puzikas enters first room engages targets (no lights). Gene and student did not positively ID their presence in the second room, Sonny goes into room two, engages target with failure drill with Gene standing in front of that target and the student nearby. Two to abdomen, one to the arm. Sonny shooting under no light at a target he previously set up. But the problem compounded when Sonny did not account for all people in the class, the people in the shoot house upon hearing the shots, did not ID their presence, and shooting in low light with out a light to ID target.......sigh

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Posted: 11/9/2012 6:08:44 AM EST
[Last Edit: 11/13/2012 1:04:16 PM EST by d90king]
Originally Posted By smokiexd45:
Damn.


Yeah, three times kinda damn! He shot him twice in the abdomen and once in the arm. I don't believe the other student who was in the shoot-house was injured though.
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Posted: 11/9/2012 6:32:59 AM EST
So, not to be insensitive, but this guy is the INSTRUCTOR and he doesn't ID the targets with white light...
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Posted: 11/9/2012 6:34:51 AM EST
I don't know who will win, but regardless of who does, I will say the same thing: FBHO!-EdSr.
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Posted: 11/9/2012 6:36:10 AM EST
There is one certain means by which I can be sure to never see my country's ruin; I will die in the last ditch!
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Posted: 11/9/2012 6:36:56 AM EST
I've been in a lot of shoot houses. Have yet to shoot any ROs or other competitors.

I did (once) wear a TAN colored shirt to RO a IDPA or USPSA event. I did not get shot, but wearing the same color shirt as the torso targets is not the best idea.
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Posted: 11/9/2012 6:37:42 AM EST
I don't know who will win, but regardless of who does, I will say the same thing: FBHO!-EdSr.
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Posted: 11/9/2012 6:37:57 AM EST


Is there a story here i missed out on?
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Posted: 11/9/2012 6:39:25 AM EST
Damn.
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Posted: 11/9/2012 6:39:57 AM EST


... Larry Vickers Certified Instructor!!!
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Posted: 11/9/2012 6:40:50 AM EST
My gosh, prayers from me.
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Posted: 11/9/2012 6:42:21 AM EST
[Last Edit: 11/9/2012 6:43:08 AM EST by lockedandloaded]
Maybe they froze up, but if I was in a shoot house, and started hearing shots fired, you can bet your sweet ass I'd be yelling as loudly as humanly possible.
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Posted: 11/9/2012 6:42:34 AM EST
I don't know who will win, but regardless of who does, I will say the same thing: FBHO!-EdSr.
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Posted: 11/9/2012 6:42:51 AM EST
ARFCOM.....Time well wasted.

Originally Posted By Keith_J:

Just remember to pay it forward. If someone is in need, do something positive.
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Posted: 11/9/2012 6:43:46 AM EST
[Last Edit: 11/9/2012 6:44:34 AM EST by tac45]
Funny...The Black Ops show on Natgeo blamed the 1st responders for not recognizing the respiratory issues of the hostages resulting in the death. According to them Spetsnaz performed flawlessly. And sonny was on that show blaming the 1st responders.



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Posted: 11/9/2012 6:44:20 AM EST
American by birth, Southern by the grace of God.

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Any opinions expressed are my own and do not reflect upon any agency or organization with which I may be employed or affiliated.
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Posted: 11/9/2012 6:45:42 AM EST
[Last Edit: 11/9/2012 6:46:19 AM EST by Aimless]
I don't know who will win, but regardless of who does, I will say the same thing: FBHO!-EdSr.
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Posted: 11/9/2012 6:48:53 AM EST
[Last Edit: 11/9/2012 6:50:14 AM EST by lostnswv]
Originally Posted By Aimless:

Originally Posted By stockshift:


... Larry Vickers Certified Instructor!!!
Yup. Larry "uncertified" him during the shitstorm then added him back later.



WTF R U SERIOUS?
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Posted: 11/9/2012 6:49:04 AM EST
Originally Posted By smokiexd45:
Damn.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?p=9688250

It happened during a shoot house portion, Gene and a student was doing an AAR after a run in the house. Sonny Puzikas enters first room engages targets (no lights). Gene and student did not positively ID their presence in the second room, Sonny goes into room two, engages target with failure drill with Gene standing in front of that target and the student nearby. Two to abdomen, one to the arm. Sonny shooting under no light at a target he previously set up. But the problem compounded when Sonny did not account for all people in the class, the people in the shoot house upon hearing the shots, did not ID their presence, and shooting in low light with out a light to ID target.......sigh



Whats the point in this? Why train to shoot targets you cant see?
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Posted: 11/9/2012 6:49:18 AM EST

Originally Posted By Aimless:

Originally Posted By DonKey153:


Is there a story here i missed out on?
Grant Timberlake taught a class, which I think was mainly a random group of students. He took a student through the shoothouse while also videotaping the student going through the shoothouse. That is a screen capture of a loaded pistol pointed by the student at Timberlake as he runs the camera. He defended it as being no big deal "Big Boy Rules"

Timberlake was removed as a "Larry Vicker's Certified Instructor" but was added back later. Some might suspect that the amount of business sent to Vickers by Timberlake's m4carbine.net forum played some role in that recertification.


I also believe that there was a student there who absolutely tore Grant's ass wide open, like talking about people loading guns across tables and sweeping each other, folks who were running the shoot house were pointing their guns in the direction of the students who were up above observing. The whole class was a trainwreck in the making.
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Posted: 11/9/2012 6:50:34 AM EST
Several things went to hell in a hand basket there.

Hopefully he can make a full or nearly full recovery.
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Posted: 11/9/2012 6:51:26 AM EST
Originally Posted By VTHOKIESHOOTER:

Originally Posted By Aimless:

Originally Posted By DonKey153:


Is there a story here i missed out on?
Grant Timberlake taught a class, which I think was mainly a random group of students. He took a student through the shoothouse while also videotaping the student going through the shoothouse. That is a screen capture of a loaded pistol pointed by the student at Timberlake as he runs the camera. He defended it as being no big deal "Big Boy Rules"

Timberlake was removed as a "Larry Vicker's Certified Instructor" but was added back later. Some might suspect that the amount of business sent to Vickers by Timberlake's m4carbine.net forum played some role in that recertification.


I also believe that there was a student there who absolutely tore Grant's ass wide open, like talking about people loading guns across tables and sweeping each other, folks who were running the shoot house were pointing their guns in the direction of the students who were up above observing. The whole class was a trainwreck in the making.


Any links to the original posts?

Inquiring minds want to know.
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Posted: 11/9/2012 6:53:05 AM EST
Originally Posted By DonKey153:


Is there a story here i missed out on?


Once upon a time, a guy was going through a shoothouse and pointed his firearm straight at the photographer.
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Posted: 11/9/2012 6:53:23 AM EST

Originally Posted By Aimless:

Good point about wearing body armor in shoot houses.

Would have still hit him.


What kind of class is he teaching that involves engaging targets without seeing them?
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Posted: 11/9/2012 6:53:29 AM EST
This is the sort of thing that keeps me up at night before range activities.
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Posted: 11/9/2012 6:53:31 AM EST
He took responsibility, but didn't necessarily pull the trigger.

I'm assuming the other student did the shooting?
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Posted: 11/9/2012 6:57:30 AM EST
Originally Posted By Bama-Shooter:
Always wear body armor when training.


This..
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Posted: 11/9/2012 6:58:01 AM EST
so how is Sonny not "vetted"?
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Posted: 11/9/2012 6:59:07 AM EST

Originally Posted By bcw107:
This is the sort of thing that keeps me up at night before range activities.

It's the reason I quit being a RSO at a public range.
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Posted: 11/9/2012 7:00:41 AM EST
Damn, I thought Sonny was a good instructor.
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Posted: 11/9/2012 7:08:46 AM EST
Originally Posted By mcnielsen:
So, not to be insensitive, but this guy is the INSTRUCTOR and he doesn't ID the targets with white light...


First thing I thought.
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Posted: 11/9/2012 7:09:44 AM EST
See, this is why my first tactical move upon hearing gunfire is to throw myself on the ground and beg for mercy. He would have missed me.

Seriously, that is terrible. I feel bad for the shooter, but damn, that sounds like pretty sloppy training.
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Posted: 11/9/2012 7:13:09 AM EST
[Last Edit: 11/9/2012 7:13:51 AM EST by Swoosh101]
Even wearing body armor, depending on where in the gut he was shot. He still would have been shot as proper wear covers your upper vitals not your stomach or your dong.


http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_10/349140_Proper_wear_of_Hard_Armor__with_anatomical_diagrams_.html
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Posted: 11/9/2012 7:13:43 AM EST

Originally Posted By RustedAce:

Originally Posted By Aimless:

Good point about wearing body armor in shoot houses.

Would have still hit him.


What kind of class is he teaching that involves engaging targets without seeing them?

this was my question on reading the descriptions of what happened, was he just blind firing in the direction he knew a target was setup?
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Posted: 11/9/2012 7:15:21 AM EST
What ever title people have, instructor, doctor, whatever, 99.99% of people are idiots.
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Posted: 11/9/2012 7:16:55 AM EST
I couldent open the links on my phone - was the shooting at TSDA in Ferris?
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Posted: 11/9/2012 7:18:23 AM EST
Originally Posted By BearArmy:
What ever title people have, instructor, doctor, whatever, 99.99% of people are idiots.


It's my experience that a normally intelligent, reasonable and rational person becomes a fucking idiot when they step onto a range.
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Posted: 11/9/2012 7:23:24 AM EST
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Posted: 11/9/2012 7:25:12 AM EST
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Posted: 11/9/2012 7:26:51 AM EST
[Last Edit: 11/9/2012 7:30:30 AM EST by RenegadeX]
What range in Dallas?

ETA - TDSA why am I not surprised.....
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Posted: 11/9/2012 7:27:28 AM EST
[Last Edit: 11/9/2012 7:29:30 AM EST by Shaffer]
Its happened before, once at the NTI.

Stressed out student/practitioners are very dangerous in a live fire shoot house.

The RO needs to be trained and ready at all times to physically restrain a shooter in those situations, I have had to.

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Posted: 11/9/2012 7:28:37 AM EST

Originally Posted By thebeekeeper1:


The hell you say!


LOL––that day will be an epic part of internet history for a LONG time to come. "We play by Big Boy Rules so fuck off!"

I thought that was Buck Yeager's mantra?
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Posted: 11/9/2012 7:29:34 AM EST
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Posted: 11/9/2012 7:30:12 AM EST
Rule #4: Be sure of your target and what is beyond it.
You can sleep with a gun, but when are you going to wake up and fight?
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Posted: 11/9/2012 7:30:54 AM EST
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Posted: 11/9/2012 7:30:54 AM EST
Originally Posted By AKengineer:

Originally Posted By bcw107:
This is the sort of thing that keeps me up at night before range activities.

It's the reason I quit being a RSO at a public range.


Yeah - pay attention next time you go to the indoor range: see all those bullet strikes on the ceiling, floor, walls - even the benches?

Yep - negligent discharges; and those are only evidence of all the times the gun actually WENT OFF! Think how often loaded guns were actually pointed in dangerous directions?

Average gun owner in the U.S. does not have a ****ing clue how to handle a gun safely.
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Posted: 11/9/2012 7:31:08 AM EST
Originally Posted By RumbleTruck:
I couldent open the links on my phone - was the shooting at TSDA in Ferris?


Yes.
Because bite me, this is the internet. I will shit myself the length and breadth of its bandwidth willy-nilly, leaving little nuggets of my wisdom wherever the fuck I wish.

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Military
Posted: 11/9/2012 7:31:40 AM EST
The final weapon is the brain. All else is supplemental.
Just like insurgency is the way of war for people poor in physical capital, SOF are the way of war for leaders poor in political capital.
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Posted: 11/9/2012 7:32:25 AM EST
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Posted: 11/9/2012 7:32:29 AM EST

Originally Posted By CBR900:
Originally Posted By AKengineer:

Originally Posted By bcw107:
This is the sort of thing that keeps me up at night before range activities.

It's the reason I quit being a RSO at a public range.


Yeah - pay attention next time you go to the indoor range: see all those bullet strikes on the ceiling, floor, walls - even the benches?

Yep - negligent discharges; and those are only evidence of all the times the gun actually WENT OFF! Think how often loaded guns were actually pointed in dangerous directions?

Average gun owner in the U.S. does not have a ****ing clue how to handle a gun safely.
Then the Magpul Videos came out. Now they are unsafe while in awkward positions that don't let them retain their weapon or manipulate it even if they knew how too.

"Imposing a totalitarian regime on a whole people depends on the leader first collecting round him a group which is prepared to submit to that which they are to impose by force " ~F.A. Hayek.
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