Previous Page
Page:  / 11
Author
Message
d90king
Member
Offline
Posts: 4762
Feedback: 100% (9)
Posted: 11/9/2012 10:51:23 AM
[Last Edit: 11/10/2012 7:27:59 PM by d90king]
http://www.theakforum.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?p=1476884#p1476884

http://soldiersystems.net/2012/11/08/cqb-training-lets-be-careful-out-there/

In light of what happened thispast Sunday night.
Due to assumptions and not taking all steps I could have taken that may have prevented the tragedy, my good friend and amazing human being Gene Smithson was severely injured during a live fire training.
Gene is in the hospital in Dallas recovering from his injuries. All I ask for is for your prayers and support for Gene during this trying time and then during lenghty recovery process.
All responsibility for what happened lies with me and nobody else. I will do my best to support Gene and his loved ones, his school for as long as needed.
Sonny Puzikas


It happened during a shoot house portion, Gene and a student was doing an AAR after a run in the house. Sonny Puzikas enters first room engages targets (no lights). Gene and student did not positively ID their presence in the second room, Sonny goes into room two, engages target with failure drill with Gene standing in front of that target and the student nearby. Two to abdomen, one to the arm. Sonny shooting under no light at a target he previously set up. But the problem compounded when Sonny did not account for all people in the class, the people in the shoot house upon hearing the shots, did not ID their presence, and shooting in low light with out a light to ID target.......
www.FirearmsTrainingandTactics.com
smokiexd45
FUBO
NRA
Offline
Posts: 5817
Feedback: 100% (13)
Link To This Post
Posted: 11/9/2012 11:06:06 AM
[Last Edit: 11/9/2012 11:09:21 AM by smokiexd45]
Damn.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?p=9688250

It happened during a shoot house portion, Gene and a student was doing an AAR after a run in the house. Sonny Puzikas enters first room engages targets (no lights). Gene and student did not positively ID their presence in the second room, Sonny goes into room two, engages target with failure drill with Gene standing in front of that target and the student nearby. Two to abdomen, one to the arm. Sonny shooting under no light at a target he previously set up. But the problem compounded when Sonny did not account for all people in the class, the people in the shoot house upon hearing the shots, did not ID their presence, and shooting in low light with out a light to ID target.......sigh

Proud Member of Team Ranstad

d90king
Member
Offline
Posts: 4763
Feedback: 100% (9)
Link To This Post
Posted: 11/9/2012 11:08:44 AM
[Last Edit: 11/13/2012 6:04:16 PM by d90king]
Originally Posted By smokiexd45:
Damn.


Yeah, three times kinda damn! He shot him twice in the abdomen and once in the arm. I don't believe the other student who was in the shoot-house was injured though.
www.FirearmsTrainingandTactics.com
mcnielsen
Badges? We don't need no stinking BADGES!!!
Online
Posts: 20210
Feedback: 100% (81)
Link To This Post
Posted: 11/9/2012 11:32:59 AM
So, not to be insensitive, but this guy is the INSTRUCTOR and he doesn't ID the targets with white light...
"If you want to pray, pray before the fight, or pray after the fight. But when you are in the fight, you fight."
MSgt. Paul Howe (ret.)
Aimless
The Original ®Angry Bird
Online
Posts: 120275
Feedback: 100% (46)
Link To This Post
Posted: 11/9/2012 11:34:51 AM
I don't know who will win, but regardless of who does, I will say the same thing: FBHO!-EdSr.
Swoosh101
Member
Online
Posts: 7549
Feedback: 100% (4)
Link To This Post
Posted: 11/9/2012 11:36:10 AM
There is one certain means by which I can be sure to never see my country's ruin; I will die in the last ditch!
CBR900
Member
Offline
Posts: 11129
Feedback: 100% (9)
Link To This Post
Posted: 11/9/2012 11:36:56 AM
I've been in a lot of shoot houses. Have yet to shoot any ROs or other competitors.

I did (once) wear a TAN colored shirt to RO a IDPA or USPSA event. I did not get shot, but wearing the same color shirt as the torso targets is not the best idea.
Aimless
The Original ®Angry Bird
Online
Posts: 120276
Feedback: 100% (46)
Link To This Post
Posted: 11/9/2012 11:37:42 AM

Originally Posted By smokiexd45:
Damn.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?p=9688250

It happened during a shoot house portion, Gene and a student was doing an AAR after a run in the house. Sonny Puzikas enters first room engages targets (no lights). Gene and student did not positively ID their presence in the second room, Sonny goes into room two, engages target with failure drill with Gene standing in front of that target and the student nearby. Two to abdomen, one to the arm. Sonny shooting under no light at a target he previously set up. But the problem compounded when Sonny did not account for all people in the class, the people in the shoot house upon hearing the shots, did not ID their presence, and shooting in low light with out a light to ID target.......sigh


Good point about wearing body armor in shoot houses.
I don't know who will win, but regardless of who does, I will say the same thing: FBHO!-EdSr.
DonKey153
Jackass
Online
Posts: 3987
Feedback: 100% (19)
Link To This Post
Posted: 11/9/2012 11:37:57 AM


Is there a story here i missed out on?
Cromlech
I like big Pies and I cannot lie.
Online
Posts: 12841
Feedback: 0% (0)
Link To This Post
Posted: 11/9/2012 11:39:25 AM
Damn.
When in deadly danger, when beset by doubt,
run in little circles, wave your arms and shout.
stockshift
Pure Pot Still Character
Offline
Posts: 11156
Feedback: 100% (2)
Link To This Post
Posted: 11/9/2012 11:39:57 AM


... Larry Vickers Certified Instructor!!!
NRA and GOA Life member
threefeathers
Member
InstructorMilitary
Offline
Posts: 9388
Feedback: 100% (67)
Link To This Post
Posted: 11/9/2012 11:40:50 AM
My gosh, prayers from me.
Scouts Out
lockedandloaded
Offline
Posts: 2731
Feedback: 100% (12)
Link To This Post
Posted: 11/9/2012 11:42:21 AM
[Last Edit: 11/9/2012 11:43:08 AM by lockedandloaded]
Maybe they froze up, but if I was in a shoot house, and started hearing shots fired, you can bet your sweet ass I'd be yelling as loudly as humanly possible.
Aimless
The Original ®Angry Bird
Online
Posts: 120277
Feedback: 100% (46)
Link To This Post
Posted: 11/9/2012 11:42:34 AM

Originally Posted By stockshift:


... Larry Vickers Certified Instructor!!!
Yup. Larry "uncertified" him during the shitstorm then added him back later.

I don't know who will win, but regardless of who does, I will say the same thing: FBHO!-EdSr.
krpind
ARFCOM Czar
NRA
Online
Posts: 42653
Feedback: 100% (9)
Link To This Post
Posted: 11/9/2012 11:42:51 AM
Wow.

I hope recovers. I can't imagine shooting someone like that.
ARFCOM.....Time well wasted.

Originally Posted By Keith_J:

Just remember to pay it forward. If someone is in need, do something positive.
tac45
Online
Posts: 3303
Feedback: 100% (17)
Link To This Post
Posted: 11/9/2012 11:43:46 AM
[Last Edit: 11/9/2012 11:44:34 AM by tac45]
Funny...The Black Ops show on Natgeo blamed the 1st responders for not recognizing the respiratory issues of the hostages resulting in the death. According to them Spetsnaz performed flawlessly. And sonny was on that show blaming the 1st responders.



Bama-Shooter
You do your thing. I'll do mine.
Instructor
Offline
Posts: 89925
Feedback: 100% (62)
Link To This Post
Posted: 11/9/2012 11:44:20 AM
Always wear body armor when training.
American by birth, Southern by the grace of God.

Constitutional carry is a right not a privilege.

Any opinions expressed are my own and do not reflect upon any agency or organization with which I may be employed or affiliated.
Aimless
The Original ®Angry Bird
Online
Posts: 120278
Feedback: 100% (46)
Link To This Post
Posted: 11/9/2012 11:45:42 AM
[Last Edit: 11/9/2012 11:46:19 AM by Aimless]

Originally Posted By DonKey153:


Is there a story here i missed out on?
Grant Timberlake taught a class, which I think was mainly a random group of students. He took a student through the shoothouse while also videotaping the student going through the shoothouse. That is a screen capture of a loaded pistol pointed by the student at Timberlake as he runs the camera. He defended it as being no big deal "Big Boy Rules"

Timberlake was removed as a "Larry Vicker's Certified Instructor" but was added back later. Some might suspect that the amount of business sent to Vickers by Timberlake's m4carbine.net forum played some role in that recertification.

I don't know who will win, but regardless of who does, I will say the same thing: FBHO!-EdSr.
lostnswv
Common Sense is the ultimate superpower.
Offline
Posts: 9185
Feedback: 100% (4)
Link To This Post
Posted: 11/9/2012 11:48:53 AM
[Last Edit: 11/9/2012 11:50:14 AM by lostnswv]
Originally Posted By Aimless:

Originally Posted By stockshift:


... Larry Vickers Certified Instructor!!!
Yup. Larry "uncertified" him during the shitstorm then added him back later.



WTF R U SERIOUS?
"When cities start using their, as you succinctly put it, "monopoly power on force" to stop a business from setting up shop in their city because of an opinion? Bet your ass I care. ..." Speedie
FunYun1983
Member
Online
Posts: 7256
Feedback: 0% (0)
Link To This Post
Posted: 11/9/2012 11:49:04 AM
Originally Posted By smokiexd45:
Damn.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?p=9688250

It happened during a shoot house portion, Gene and a student was doing an AAR after a run in the house. Sonny Puzikas enters first room engages targets (no lights). Gene and student did not positively ID their presence in the second room, Sonny goes into room two, engages target with failure drill with Gene standing in front of that target and the student nearby. Two to abdomen, one to the arm. Sonny shooting under no light at a target he previously set up. But the problem compounded when Sonny did not account for all people in the class, the people in the shoot house upon hearing the shots, did not ID their presence, and shooting in low light with out a light to ID target.......sigh



Whats the point in this? Why train to shoot targets you cant see?
VTHOKIESHOOTER
Foresters do it in the woods كاف
Offline
Posts: 61215
Feedback: 100% (2)
Link To This Post
Posted: 11/9/2012 11:49:18 AM

Originally Posted By Aimless:

Originally Posted By DonKey153:


Is there a story here i missed out on?
Grant Timberlake taught a class, which I think was mainly a random group of students. He took a student through the shoothouse while also videotaping the student going through the shoothouse. That is a screen capture of a loaded pistol pointed by the student at Timberlake as he runs the camera. He defended it as being no big deal "Big Boy Rules"

Timberlake was removed as a "Larry Vicker's Certified Instructor" but was added back later. Some might suspect that the amount of business sent to Vickers by Timberlake's m4carbine.net forum played some role in that recertification.


I also believe that there was a student there who absolutely tore Grant's ass wide open, like talking about people loading guns across tables and sweeping each other, folks who were running the shoot house were pointing their guns in the direction of the students who were up above observing. The whole class was a trainwreck in the making.
The Republican and Democrat parties are two sides of the same turd.
Kubota3430
Member
Offline
Posts: 966
Feedback: 0% (0)
Link To This Post
Posted: 11/9/2012 11:50:34 AM
Several things went to hell in a hand basket there.

Hopefully he can make a full or nearly full recovery.
Svetgar
Varian is pro RKBA
Offline
Posts: 2582
Feedback: 100% (4)
Link To This Post
Posted: 11/9/2012 11:51:26 AM
Originally Posted By VTHOKIESHOOTER:

Originally Posted By Aimless:

Originally Posted By DonKey153:


Is there a story here i missed out on?
Grant Timberlake taught a class, which I think was mainly a random group of students. He took a student through the shoothouse while also videotaping the student going through the shoothouse. That is a screen capture of a loaded pistol pointed by the student at Timberlake as he runs the camera. He defended it as being no big deal "Big Boy Rules"

Timberlake was removed as a "Larry Vicker's Certified Instructor" but was added back later. Some might suspect that the amount of business sent to Vickers by Timberlake's m4carbine.net forum played some role in that recertification.


I also believe that there was a student there who absolutely tore Grant's ass wide open, like talking about people loading guns across tables and sweeping each other, folks who were running the shoot house were pointing their guns in the direction of the students who were up above observing. The whole class was a trainwreck in the making.


Any links to the original posts?

Inquiring minds want to know.
AFK IRL
JustJim
Offline
Posts: 2098
Feedback: 100% (8)
Link To This Post
Posted: 11/9/2012 11:53:05 AM
Originally Posted By DonKey153:


Is there a story here i missed out on?


Once upon a time, a guy was going through a shoothouse and pointed his firearm straight at the photographer.
RustedAce
Veteran of the Cola Wars.
InstructorMilitary
Offline
Posts: 15014
Feedback: 100% (29)
Link To This Post
Posted: 11/9/2012 11:53:23 AM

Originally Posted By Aimless:

Good point about wearing body armor in shoot houses.

Would have still hit him.


What kind of class is he teaching that involves engaging targets without seeing them?
My post brings a mystical magical life lesson.......To youuuuuuuuuuuu!

YOU'RE WELCOME!

Man+X=BT.
bcw107
RIP SSG Juan M Solorio
InstructorMilitary
Offline
Posts: 27005
Feedback: 100% (44)
Link To This Post
Posted: 11/9/2012 11:53:29 AM
This is the sort of thing that keeps me up at night before range activities.
I'm fluent in three languages: English, sarcasm and profanity.
Tomislav
Sing, Muse, the wrath of Achilles...
Offline
Posts: 26259
Feedback: 100% (59)
Link To This Post
Posted: 11/9/2012 11:53:31 AM
He took responsibility, but didn't necessarily pull the trigger.

I'm assuming the other student did the shooting?
DLaw
Member
Offline
Posts: 11944
Feedback: 0% (0)
Link To This Post
Posted: 11/9/2012 11:57:30 AM
Originally Posted By Bama-Shooter:
Always wear body armor when training.


This..
Yo Homie, they put the sights on top for a reason-
Frank Castle

My small dick can still reach the lock button.
-NorCal LEO
nictra
Member
Offline
Posts: 6094
Feedback: 100% (71)
Link To This Post
Posted: 11/9/2012 11:58:01 AM
so how is Sonny not "vetted"?
AKengineer
Member
Online
Posts: 10263
Feedback: 100% (1)
Link To This Post
Posted: 11/9/2012 11:59:07 AM

Originally Posted By bcw107:
This is the sort of thing that keeps me up at night before range activities.

It's the reason I quit being a RSO at a public range.
"Imposing a totalitarian regime on a whole people depends on the leader first collecting round him a group which is prepared to submit to that which they are to impose by force " ~F.A. Hayek.
aimforthemedic
On Call
Military
Offline
Posts: 1496
Feedback: 98% (59)
Link To This Post
Posted: 11/9/2012 12:00:41 PM
Damn, I thought Sonny was a good instructor.
I'm not buying a Volt and I'm not paying the penalty tax either. Drink my shit. Thank you.
-HogJaws
AR4U
Brought to you by Carl's Jr.®
Online
Posts: 16383
Feedback: 0% (0)
Link To This Post
Posted: 11/9/2012 12:08:46 PM
Originally Posted By mcnielsen:
So, not to be insensitive, but this guy is the INSTRUCTOR and he doesn't ID the targets with white light...


First thing I thought.
"During the second 100 days, we will design, build and open a library dedicated to my first 100 days." -Barack Obama, May 9 2009
brassburn
Member
Offline
Posts: 6181
Feedback: 100% (88)
Link To This Post
Posted: 11/9/2012 12:09:44 PM
See, this is why my first tactical move upon hearing gunfire is to throw myself on the ground and beg for mercy. He would have missed me.

Seriously, that is terrible. I feel bad for the shooter, but damn, that sounds like pretty sloppy training.
Swoosh101
Member
Online
Posts: 7552
Feedback: 100% (4)
Link To This Post
Posted: 11/9/2012 12:13:09 PM
[Last Edit: 11/9/2012 12:13:51 PM by Swoosh101]
Even wearing body armor, depending on where in the gut he was shot. He still would have been shot as proper wear covers your upper vitals not your stomach or your dong.


http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_10/349140_Proper_wear_of_Hard_Armor__with_anatomical_diagrams_.html
There is one certain means by which I can be sure to never see my country's ruin; I will die in the last ditch!
snakes19
Member
Offline
Posts: 4638
Feedback: 100% (2)
Link To This Post
Posted: 11/9/2012 12:13:43 PM

Originally Posted By RustedAce:

Originally Posted By Aimless:

Good point about wearing body armor in shoot houses.

Would have still hit him.


What kind of class is he teaching that involves engaging targets without seeing them?

this was my question on reading the descriptions of what happened, was he just blind firing in the direction he knew a target was setup?
.
BearArmy
Offline
Posts: 1294
Feedback: 100% (14)
Link To This Post
Posted: 11/9/2012 12:15:21 PM
What ever title people have, instructor, doctor, whatever, 99.99% of people are idiots.
RumbleTruck
State Certified Boomstick Instructor
NRA
Online
Posts: 1228
Feedback: 100% (8)
Link To This Post
Posted: 11/9/2012 12:16:55 PM
I couldent open the links on my phone - was the shooting at TSDA in Ferris?
Team Ranstad

"But if you are authorized to carry a weapon, and you walk outside without it, just take a deep breath, and say this to yourself... “Baa.” " Col. Dave Grossman
bcw107
RIP SSG Juan M Solorio
InstructorMilitary
Offline
Posts: 27009
Feedback: 100% (44)
Link To This Post
Posted: 11/9/2012 12:18:23 PM
Originally Posted By BearArmy:
What ever title people have, instructor, doctor, whatever, 99.99% of people are idiots.


It's my experience that a normally intelligent, reasonable and rational person becomes a fucking idiot when they step onto a range.
I'm fluent in three languages: English, sarcasm and profanity.
thebeekeeper1
Member
NRA
Online
Posts: 89097
Feedback: 100% (17)
Link To This Post
Posted: 11/9/2012 12:23:24 PM
Originally Posted By Aimless:

Originally Posted By DonKey153:


Is there a story here i missed out on?
Grant Timberlake taught a class, which I think was mainly a random group of students. He took a student through the shoothouse while also videotaping the student going through the shoothouse. That is a screen capture of a loaded pistol pointed by the student at Timberlake as he runs the camera. He defended it as being no big deal "Big Boy Rules"

Timberlake was removed as a "Larry Vicker's Certified Instructor" but was added back later. Some might suspect that the amount of business sent to Vickers by Timberlake's m4carbine.net forum played some role in that recertification.



The hell you say!















LOL––that day will be an epic part of internet history for a LONG time to come. "We play by Big Boy Rules so fuck off!"
thebeekeeper1
Member
NRA
Online
Posts: 89098
Feedback: 100% (17)
Link To This Post
Posted: 11/9/2012 12:25:12 PM
Originally Posted By Svetgar:
Originally Posted By VTHOKIESHOOTER:
.


Any links to the original posts?

Inquiring minds want to know.


He (Grant Timberlake) owns the site where it all took place. What would you guess happened to the evidence/links?
RenegadeX
Member
Online
Posts: 22194
Feedback: 100% (12)
Link To This Post
Posted: 11/9/2012 12:26:51 PM
[Last Edit: 11/9/2012 12:30:30 PM by RenegadeX]
What range in Dallas?

ETA - TDSA why am I not surprised.....
Shaffer
Offline
Posts: 643
Feedback: 100% (10)
Link To This Post
Posted: 11/9/2012 12:27:28 PM
[Last Edit: 11/9/2012 12:29:30 PM by Shaffer]
Its happened before, once at the NTI.

Stressed out student/practitioners are very dangerous in a live fire shoot house.

The RO needs to be trained and ready at all times to physically restrain a shooter in those situations, I have had to.

AKengineer
Member
Online
Posts: 10266
Feedback: 100% (1)
Link To This Post
Posted: 11/9/2012 12:28:37 PM

Originally Posted By thebeekeeper1:


The hell you say!


LOL––that day will be an epic part of internet history for a LONG time to come. "We play by Big Boy Rules so fuck off!"

I thought that was Buck Yeager's mantra?
"Imposing a totalitarian regime on a whole people depends on the leader first collecting round him a group which is prepared to submit to that which they are to impose by force " ~F.A. Hayek.
texastactical
WWW.TEXASTACTICAL.NET
Offline
Posts: 4661
Feedback: 100% (3)
Link To This Post
Posted: 11/9/2012 12:29:34 PM
Originally Posted By RenegadeX:
What range in Dallas?


TDSA
Michael "Iron Mike" Webb
Texas Tactical
WWW.TEXASTACTICAL.NET
Caboose314
Fightin' Texas Aggie
Online
Posts: 5406
Feedback: 100% (1)
Link To This Post
Posted: 11/9/2012 12:30:12 PM
Rule #4: Be sure of your target and what is beyond it.
You can sleep with a gun, but when are you going to wake up and fight?
texastactical
WWW.TEXASTACTICAL.NET
Offline
Posts: 4662
Feedback: 100% (3)
Link To This Post
Posted: 11/9/2012 12:30:54 PM
Originally Posted By RumbleTruck:
I couldent open the links on my phone - was the shooting at TSDA in Ferris?


yes


Michael "Iron Mike" Webb
Texas Tactical
WWW.TEXASTACTICAL.NET
CBR900
Member
Offline
Posts: 11132
Feedback: 100% (9)
Link To This Post
Posted: 11/9/2012 12:30:54 PM
Originally Posted By AKengineer:

Originally Posted By bcw107:
This is the sort of thing that keeps me up at night before range activities.

It's the reason I quit being a RSO at a public range.


Yeah - pay attention next time you go to the indoor range: see all those bullet strikes on the ceiling, floor, walls - even the benches?

Yep - negligent discharges; and those are only evidence of all the times the gun actually WENT OFF! Think how often loaded guns were actually pointed in dangerous directions?

Average gun owner in the U.S. does not have a ****ing clue how to handle a gun safely.
FAIL-SAFE
Third Boxcar, Midnight Train
Offline
Posts: 9620
Feedback: 100% (57)
Link To This Post
Posted: 11/9/2012 12:31:08 PM
Originally Posted By RumbleTruck:
I couldent open the links on my phone - was the shooting at TSDA in Ferris?


Yes.
Because bite me, this is the internet. I will shit myself the length and breadth of its bandwidth willy-nilly, leaving little nuggets of my wisdom wherever the fuck I wish.

Sponsored by Hard_Rock
Toiyabe
Always the Big Spoon. Always.
Military
Offline
Posts: 9307
Feedback: 100% (213)
Link To This Post
Posted: 11/9/2012 12:31:40 PM
Originally Posted By bcw107:
Originally Posted By BearArmy:
What ever title people have, instructor, doctor, whatever, 99.99% of people are idiots.


It's my experience that a normally intelligent, reasonable and rational person becomes a fucking idiot when they step onto a range.



Amen.
The final weapon is the brain. All else is supplemental.
Just like insurgency is the way of war for people poor in physical capital, SOF are the way of war for leaders poor in political capital.
thebeekeeper1
Member
NRA
Online
Posts: 89099
Feedback: 100% (17)
Link To This Post
Posted: 11/9/2012 12:32:25 PM
Originally Posted By AKengineer:

Originally Posted By thebeekeeper1:


The hell you say!


LOL––that day will be an epic part of internet history for a LONG time to come. "We play by Big Boy Rules so fuck off!"

I thought that was Buck Yeager's mantra?


Perhaps, but Timberlake borrowed it that day. The whole thing would have been a great deal less of a "thing" if he had simply owned it and admitted he screwed up. Instead he dug his heels in deeper and deeper as the day wore on. He did NOTHING wrong, even though that pic says otherwise. He actually justified it, explained it several different ways, and tried to get everyone to accept it as a by-product of "big boy rules" and therefore acceptable among the elite and rarified air where *HE* teaches a class. It was truly an epic day. In the words of J. R. Ewing, years ago on a TV show called "Dallas"––"Time wounds all heels."
AKengineer
Member
Online
Posts: 10267
Feedback: 100% (1)
Link To This Post
Posted: 11/9/2012 12:32:29 PM

Originally Posted By CBR900:
Originally Posted By AKengineer:

Originally Posted By bcw107:
This is the sort of thing that keeps me up at night before range activities.

It's the reason I quit being a RSO at a public range.


Yeah - pay attention next time you go to the indoor range: see all those bullet strikes on the ceiling, floor, walls - even the benches?

Yep - negligent discharges; and those are only evidence of all the times the gun actually WENT OFF! Think how often loaded guns were actually pointed in dangerous directions?

Average gun owner in the U.S. does not have a ****ing clue how to handle a gun safely.
Then the Magpul Videos came out. Now they are unsafe while in awkward positions that don't let them retain their weapon or manipulate it even if they knew how too.

"Imposing a totalitarian regime on a whole people depends on the leader first collecting round him a group which is prepared to submit to that which they are to impose by force " ~F.A. Hayek.
  Previous Page
Page:  / 11