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 Madcap72
I wish all the ladies, were holes in the road...
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Posted: 8/10/2012 9:53:13 PM
Originally Posted By Sylvan: Originally Posted By stickfigure: One problem with these smaller single engine aircraft that is they don't do well when it's hot and high altitude and they are loaded with ordnance. The Super Tucano has a ceiling of 10K meters with what kind of load? loaded or slightly empty?, these would work great at lower levels but the Hindu Kush mountains start at 7000 feet and they go up to 25K. We had problems taking off from Kandahar loaded in a C-130E when it was hot and heavy. Operating at high altitudes in the mountains of the Middle East is going to be sketchy with some of the smaller planes. That youtube video of the cockpit crash of a small airplane is a perfect example of what happens when you are loaded, struggling for altitude in the mountains and experience a rise in temperature or a change in wind direction. ah, super tuco bad. OH-58? Not a problem Everything you've ever said, has all coalesced and made sense to me now over the last 2-3 threads like this. I mean, I "got it" before, but now it REALLY hits home. |
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Capt-Planet
Cyber-Luddite - 291 PT score
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Posted: 8/10/2012 9:53:53 PM
Originally Posted By Sylvan:
Originally Posted By stickfigure:
One problem with these smaller single engine aircraft that is they don't do well when it's hot and high altitude and they are loaded with ordnance. The Super Tucano has a ceiling of 10K meters with what kind of load? loaded or slightly empty?, these would work great at lower levels but the Hindu Kush mountains start at 7000 feet and they go up to 25K. We had problems taking off from Kandahar loaded in a C-130E when it was hot and heavy. Operating at high altitudes in the mountains of the Middle East is going to be sketchy with some of the smaller planes. That youtube video of the cockpit crash of a small airplane is a perfect example of what happens when you are loaded, struggling for altitude in the mountains and experience a rise in temperature or a change in wind direction. ah, super tuco bad. OH-58? Not a problem No sir, it needs to be supersonic capable. If it isn't, then we might as well not even build it. |
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Sylvan
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Posted: 8/10/2012 10:04:42 PM
Originally Posted By Madcap72:
Originally Posted By Sylvan:
Originally Posted By stickfigure:
One problem with these smaller single engine aircraft that is they don't do well when it's hot and high altitude and they are loaded with ordnance. The Super Tucano has a ceiling of 10K meters with what kind of load? loaded or slightly empty?, these would work great at lower levels but the Hindu Kush mountains start at 7000 feet and they go up to 25K. We had problems taking off from Kandahar loaded in a C-130E when it was hot and heavy. Operating at high altitudes in the mountains of the Middle East is going to be sketchy with some of the smaller planes. That youtube video of the cockpit crash of a small airplane is a perfect example of what happens when you are loaded, struggling for altitude in the mountains and experience a rise in temperature or a change in wind direction. ah, super tuco bad. OH-58? Not a problem Everything you've ever said, has all coalesced and made sense to me now over the last 2-3 threads like this. I mean, I "got it" before, but now it REALLY hits home. You really need to be a ground pounder to understand the difference. I have received CAS from F15s, Harriers, Apaches, A-10s, B-1s AC-130s, F18s. Yet somehow, because I am not a pilot, I have no idea what I am talking about. I have seen what EVERY branch has to offer. In combat. Day and night. But the knee jerk from folks who, at best, have provided it from one frame's perspective simply refuse to listen to common sense we used in Vietnam. They bitch about high hours on F16s while using them to fly for 10 years in a completely permissive environment. and bitching about C27J procurement? Really? Everything was fine before the AF got their dick beaters involved. |
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Madcap72
I wish all the ladies, were holes in the road...
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Posted: 8/10/2012 10:22:41 PM
[Last Edit: 8/10/2012 10:23:52 PM by Madcap72]
As I've mentioned before, being a Marine in 03 in Iraq, not only did we have our organic air, we had the Navy birds as well, and EVERYONE was happy to be dropping bombs for us.
The amount of push back for small aircraft is pretty amazing. So much "That won't work" and not enough "lets try it and see". As an aside, F-14's dropping JDAMS is pretty fucking cool to watch, in fact, looking up how much ordinance F-14's dropped in Iraq and Afganistan it's pretty amazing. Apparently 1.3 million lbs in AFG, and over 2 million in Iraq. |
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Jarhead08
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Posted: 8/10/2012 10:27:13 PM
Originally Posted By Capt-Planet: We need 2,500 first strike aircraft! Any less than that and we'll surely die. Curtis LeMay says you're low balling it...................................... 
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Madcap72
I wish all the ladies, were holes in the road...
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Posted: 8/10/2012 10:37:10 PM
Obviously we need tens of thousands of F-111's.
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Jarhead08
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Posted: 8/10/2012 10:38:00 PM
Originally Posted By Sylvan: The thing is and IMHO what the USAF does not understand, CAS isn't magic, it isn't something so hard to understand that you need seven levels of review to put a two aircraft sortie on a target, and that's what it's sounding like to me. It also sounds like it's difficult to put an on-call, on IP sortie in the air. My experience is a bit dated but that was routine in a hot zone. USMC or USN FW on station was a given and a nine line away.
You really need to be a ground pounder to understand the difference. I have received CAS from F15s, Harriers, Apaches, A-10s, B-1s AC-130s, F18s. Yet somehow, because I am not a pilot, I have no idea what I am talking about. I have seen what EVERY branch has to offer. In combat. Day and night. But the knee jerk from folks who, at best, have provided it from one frame's perspective simply refuse to listen to common sense we used in Vietnam. They bitch about high hours on F16s while using them to fly for 10 years in a completely permissive environment. and bitching about C27J procurement? Really? Everything was fine before the AF got their dick beaters involved. WTF am I missing? |
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Tomislav
#NO_LIMIT_POSTER
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Posted: 8/10/2012 10:41:04 PM
Privyet! CAS you say?
The dream that could have been....  Without a rear gunner, how can an aircraft be successful at CAS? Obviously, it cannot. |
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Posted: 8/10/2012 11:00:16 PM
Originally Posted By Jarhead08: Originally Posted By Sylvan: The thing is and IMHO what the USAF does not understand, CAS isn't magic, it isn't something so hard to understand that you need seven levels of review to put a two aircraft sortie on a target, and that's what it's sounding like to me. It also sounds like it's difficult to put an on-call, on IP sortie in the air. My experience is a bit dated but that was routine in a hot zone. USMC or USN FW on station was a given and a nine line away.
You really need to be a ground pounder to understand the difference. I have received CAS from F15s, Harriers, Apaches, A-10s, B-1s AC-130s, F18s. Yet somehow, because I am not a pilot, I have no idea what I am talking about. I have seen what EVERY branch has to offer. In combat. Day and night. But the knee jerk from folks who, at best, have provided it from one frame's perspective simply refuse to listen to common sense we used in Vietnam. They bitch about high hours on F16s while using them to fly for 10 years in a completely permissive environment. and bitching about C27J procurement? Really? Everything was fine before the AF got their dick beaters involved. WTF am I missing? You are missing the value added by the AF ATO cycle, you silly caveman. |
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Jarhead08
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Posted: 8/10/2012 11:07:45 PM
Originally Posted By MAJClem: Originally Posted By Jarhead08: Originally Posted By Sylvan: The thing is and IMHO what the USAF does not understand, CAS isn't magic, it isn't something so hard to understand that you need seven levels of review to put a two aircraft sortie on a target, and that's what it's sounding like to me. It also sounds like it's difficult to put an on-call, on IP sortie in the air. My experience is a bit dated but that was routine in a hot zone. USMC or USN FW on station was a given and a nine line away.
You really need to be a ground pounder to understand the difference. I have received CAS from F15s, Harriers, Apaches, A-10s, B-1s AC-130s, F18s. Yet somehow, because I am not a pilot, I have no idea what I am talking about. I have seen what EVERY branch has to offer. In combat. Day and night. But the knee jerk from folks who, at best, have provided it from one frame's perspective simply refuse to listen to common sense we used in Vietnam. They bitch about high hours on F16s while using them to fly for 10 years in a completely permissive environment. and bitching about C27J procurement? Really? Everything was fine before the AF got their dick beaters involved. WTF am I missing? You are missing the value added by the AF ATO cycle, you silly caveman. I guess I can't wear a zippered Sun God Suit now.....huh? 
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Madcap72
I wish all the ladies, were holes in the road...
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Posted: 8/10/2012 11:08:52 PM
Originally Posted By Jarhead08: Go Force! :)Originally Posted By MAJClem: Originally Posted By Jarhead08: Originally Posted By Sylvan: The thing is and IMHO what the USAF does not understand, CAS isn't magic, it isn't something so hard to understand that you need seven levels of review to put a two aircraft sortie on a target, and that's what it's sounding like to me. It also sounds like it's difficult to put an on-call, on IP sortie in the air. My experience is a bit dated but that was routine in a hot zone. USMC or USN FW on station was a given and a nine line away.
You really need to be a ground pounder to understand the difference. I have received CAS from F15s, Harriers, Apaches, A-10s, B-1s AC-130s, F18s. Yet somehow, because I am not a pilot, I have no idea what I am talking about. I have seen what EVERY branch has to offer. In combat. Day and night. But the knee jerk from folks who, at best, have provided it from one frame's perspective simply refuse to listen to common sense we used in Vietnam. They bitch about high hours on F16s while using them to fly for 10 years in a completely permissive environment. and bitching about C27J procurement? Really? Everything was fine before the AF got their dick beaters involved. WTF am I missing? You are missing the value added by the AF ATO cycle, you silly caveman. I guess I can't wear a zippered Sun God Suit now.....huh? |
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Jarhead08
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Posted: 8/10/2012 11:11:28 PM
Originally Posted By Madcap72: Originally Posted By Jarhead08: Go Force! :)Originally Posted By MAJClem: Originally Posted By Jarhead08: Originally Posted By Sylvan: The thing is and IMHO what the USAF does not understand, CAS isn't magic, it isn't something so hard to understand that you need seven levels of review to put a two aircraft sortie on a target, and that's what it's sounding like to me. It also sounds like it's difficult to put an on-call, on IP sortie in the air. My experience is a bit dated but that was routine in a hot zone. USMC or USN FW on station was a given and a nine line away.
You really need to be a ground pounder to understand the difference. I have received CAS from F15s, Harriers, Apaches, A-10s, B-1s AC-130s, F18s. Yet somehow, because I am not a pilot, I have no idea what I am talking about. I have seen what EVERY branch has to offer. In combat. Day and night. But the knee jerk from folks who, at best, have provided it from one frame's perspective simply refuse to listen to common sense we used in Vietnam. They bitch about high hours on F16s while using them to fly for 10 years in a completely permissive environment. and bitching about C27J procurement? Really? Everything was fine before the AF got their dick beaters involved. WTF am I missing? You are missing the value added by the AF ATO cycle, you silly caveman. I guess I can't wear a zippered Sun God Suit now.....huh? No Imma go dig a fighting hole and do a Comms check.
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Madcap72
I wish all the ladies, were holes in the road...
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Posted: 8/10/2012 11:12:54 PM
Good to go. Just make sure you shout into the handset otherwise range control won't hear you, and tell you to take 10-15 minutes to improve your comms.
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Posted: 8/10/2012 11:13:35 PM
Originally Posted By Jarhead08: Remember, the string between the 2 cans has to be tight for good signal.Originally Posted By Madcap72: Originally Posted By Jarhead08: Go Force! :)Originally Posted By MAJClem: Originally Posted By Jarhead08: Originally Posted By Sylvan: The thing is and IMHO what the USAF does not understand, CAS isn't magic, it isn't something so hard to understand that you need seven levels of review to put a two aircraft sortie on a target, and that's what it's sounding like to me. It also sounds like it's difficult to put an on-call, on IP sortie in the air. My experience is a bit dated but that was routine in a hot zone. USMC or USN FW on station was a given and a nine line away.
You really need to be a ground pounder to understand the difference. I have received CAS from F15s, Harriers, Apaches, A-10s, B-1s AC-130s, F18s. Yet somehow, because I am not a pilot, I have no idea what I am talking about. I have seen what EVERY branch has to offer. In combat. Day and night. But the knee jerk from folks who, at best, have provided it from one frame's perspective simply refuse to listen to common sense we used in Vietnam. They bitch about high hours on F16s while using them to fly for 10 years in a completely permissive environment. and bitching about C27J procurement? Really? Everything was fine before the AF got their dick beaters involved. WTF am I missing? You are missing the value added by the AF ATO cycle, you silly caveman. I guess I can't wear a zippered Sun God Suit now.....huh? No Imma go dig a fighting hole and do a Comms check. |
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Posted: 8/10/2012 11:15:14 PM
Originally Posted By stickfigure:
<snip> Not to mention they Army doesn't have the hangers, the runways or any of extended maintenance structures that the Air Force does, besides at specific joint bases. So good luck asking the AF for permission to park your planes (our planes) on our bases.... That pretty much summarizes every experience I had in theater with the AF. |
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Jarhead08
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Posted: 8/10/2012 11:15:19 PM
Originally Posted By MAJClem: Originally Posted By Jarhead08: Remember, the string between the 2 cans has to be tight for good signal.Originally Posted By Madcap72: Originally Posted By Jarhead08: Go Force! :)Originally Posted By MAJClem: Originally Posted By Jarhead08: Originally Posted By Sylvan: The thing is and IMHO what the USAF does not understand, CAS isn't magic, it isn't something so hard to understand that you need seven levels of review to put a two aircraft sortie on a target, and that's what it's sounding like to me. It also sounds like it's difficult to put an on-call, on IP sortie in the air. My experience is a bit dated but that was routine in a hot zone. USMC or USN FW on station was a given and a nine line away.
You really need to be a ground pounder to understand the difference. I have received CAS from F15s, Harriers, Apaches, A-10s, B-1s AC-130s, F18s. Yet somehow, because I am not a pilot, I have no idea what I am talking about. I have seen what EVERY branch has to offer. In combat. Day and night. But the knee jerk from folks who, at best, have provided it from one frame's perspective simply refuse to listen to common sense we used in Vietnam. They bitch about high hours on F16s while using them to fly for 10 years in a completely permissive environment. and bitching about C27J procurement? Really? Everything was fine before the AF got their dick beaters involved. WTF am I missing? You are missing the value added by the AF ATO cycle, you silly caveman. I guess I can't wear a zippered Sun God Suit now.....huh? No Imma go dig a fighting hole and do a Comms check. Thanks! That was the problem! I'm GTG now!
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CFII
Kiowa Driver
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Posted: 8/10/2012 11:16:48 PM
[Last Edit: 8/10/2012 11:22:44 PM by CFII]
Hahahahahahahha
Fixed wing pilots or maintainers talking about being "power limited" You have no idea what power limited is. The mighty Kiowa is power limited. And look, damn near 1 MILLION combat flight hours later, we are still kicking ass, taking names, impressing chicks, and making dudes go to flight school from combat arms JUST to fly the Kiowa. CCA rocks. |
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Jarhead08
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Posted: 8/10/2012 11:17:42 PM
Originally Posted By Infantry26: Originally Posted By stickfigure: <snip> Not to mention they Army doesn't have the hangers, the runways or any of extended maintenance structures that the Air Force does, besides at specific joint bases. So good luck asking the AF for permission to park your planes (our planes) on our bases.... That pretty much summarizes every experience I had in theater with the AF. They be AF flight lines yo! Even though our aircraft are in Missouri, Guam and Diego Garcia. |
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Jarhead08
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Posted: 8/10/2012 11:19:44 PM
Originally Posted By CFII: Hahahahahahahha Fixed wing pilots or mainters talking about being "power limited" You have no idea what power limited is. The mighty Kiowa is power limited. And look, damn near 1 MILLION combat flight hours later, we are still kicking ass, taking names, impressing chicks, and making dudes go to flight school from combat arms JUST to fly the Kiowa. CCA rocks. Kiowas can't do CAS according to the Army and the AF. You ain't fixed wing Rotor Head!
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CFII
Kiowa Driver
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Posted: 8/10/2012 11:24:29 PM
[Last Edit: 8/10/2012 11:25:33 PM by CFII]
A VERY good friend of mine is a Colonel in the USMC. He went to AFG two years ago as an 05. Know what his job was? Defend USMC aviation against the USAF.
Fought daily. |
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Sylvan
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Posted: 8/10/2012 11:28:02 PM
Originally Posted By Infantry26:
Originally Posted By stickfigure:
<snip> Not to mention they Army doesn't have the hangers, the runways or any of extended maintenance structures that the Air Force does, besides at specific joint bases. So good luck asking the AF for permission to park your planes (our planes) on our bases.... That pretty much summarizes every experience I had in theater with the AF. sums it up. Air Force Because Fuck You, thats why. |
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cms81586
Need More Guns...
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Posted: 8/10/2012 11:32:43 PM
CFII...this one is for you...Kandahar Province, Maywand District circa 2009...
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Posted: 8/10/2012 11:44:54 PM
Originally Posted By Sylvan:
Originally Posted By Infantry26:
That pretty much summarizes every experience I had in theater with the AF. sums it up. Air Force Because Fuck You, thats why. See Sylvan, you understand that the antipathy exists, but I don't think you understand WHY it exists. If you ever get the time, go sit in on some AF training if they let you (which they probably won't) and I think it will become clearer. |
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Sylvan
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Posted: 8/10/2012 11:53:28 PM
Originally Posted By Katana16j:
Originally Posted By Sylvan:
Originally Posted By Infantry26:
That pretty much summarizes every experience I had in theater with the AF. sums it up. Air Force Because Fuck You, thats why. See Sylvan, you understand that the antipathy exists, but I don't think you understand WHY it exists. If you ever get the time, go sit in on some AF training if they let you (which they probably won't) and I think it will become clearer. Square me away. Give me "Why you must hate the Army" 101 |
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Jarhead08
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Posted: 8/10/2012 11:55:05 PM
[Last Edit: 8/10/2012 11:55:51 PM by Jarhead08]
Originally Posted By Sylvan: Originally Posted By Infantry26: Originally Posted By stickfigure: <snip> Not to mention they Army doesn't have the hangers, the runways or any of extended maintenance structures that the Air Force does, besides at specific joint bases. So good luck asking the AF for permission to park your planes (our planes) on our bases.... That pretty much summarizes every experience I had in theater with the AF. sums it up. Air Force Because Fuck You, thats why. 
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Jarhead08
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Posted: 8/10/2012 11:57:02 PM
Originally Posted By Sylvan: Because they are the Army.....duh.Originally Posted By Katana16j: Originally Posted By Sylvan: Originally Posted By Infantry26: That pretty much summarizes every experience I had in theater with the AF. sums it up. Air Force Because Fuck You, thats why. See Sylvan, you understand that the antipathy exists, but I don't think you understand WHY it exists. If you ever get the time, go sit in on some AF training if they let you (which they probably won't) and I think it will become clearer. Square me away. Give me "Why you must hate the Army" 101 |
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Formergrunt94
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Posted: 8/10/2012 11:58:30 PM
Originally Posted By Katana16j:
Originally Posted By Sylvan:
Originally Posted By Infantry26:
That pretty much summarizes every experience I had in theater with the AF. sums it up. Air Force Because Fuck You, thats why. See Sylvan, you understand that the antipathy exists, but I don't think you understand WHY it exists. If you ever get the time, go sit in on some AF training if they let you (which they probably won't) and I think it will become clearer. Cause he's not willing to murder children to accomplish national goals? |
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Sylvan
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Posted: 8/11/2012 12:02:59 AM
Originally Posted By Formergrunt94:
Originally Posted By Katana16j:
Originally Posted By Sylvan:
Originally Posted By Infantry26:
That pretty much summarizes every experience I had in theater with the AF. sums it up. Air Force Because Fuck You, thats why. See Sylvan, you understand that the antipathy exists, but I don't think you understand WHY it exists. If you ever get the time, go sit in on some AF training if they let you (which they probably won't) and I think it will become clearer. Cause he's not willing to murder children to accomplish national goals? I never said I wasn't. Just that I'd avoid it if I could. shooting kids sucks. |
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Formergrunt94
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Posted: 8/11/2012 12:06:38 AM
Originally Posted By Sylvan:
Originally Posted By Formergrunt94:
Originally Posted By Katana16j:
Originally Posted By Sylvan:
Originally Posted By Infantry26:
That pretty much summarizes every experience I had in theater with the AF. sums it up. Air Force Because Fuck You, thats why. See Sylvan, you understand that the antipathy exists, but I don't think you understand WHY it exists. If you ever get the time, go sit in on some AF training if they let you (which they probably won't) and I think it will become clearer. Cause he's not willing to murder children to accomplish national goals? I never said I wasn't. Just that I'd avoid it if I could. shooting kids sucks. Not good enough apparently after the last thread. Mr. President, we know where the boogyman-of-the-moment is. We can get him. Mr President says "Options?" CIA says a guy dressed as a waiter with a 9 mil Army says 160 SOAR and Delta will go get him. Marines say MARSOC and the gator navy. Navy says SEALs and a carrier. AirForce says we have to nuke the entire country and everyone in it. It's the only way. Atrocity up in here Mr. P. |
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Posted: 8/11/2012 1:11:16 AM
Originally Posted By Sylvan:
Square me away. Give me "Why you must hate the Army" 101 PM Sent |
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disco_jon75
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Posted: 8/11/2012 1:41:40 AM
[Last Edit: 8/11/2012 9:53:07 AM by disco_jon75]
Edited... Oh, fuck it.
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Posted: 8/11/2012 1:56:07 AM
[Last Edit: 8/11/2012 1:57:05 AM by blackeagle05]
OP, your question was mostly answered by people mentioning TACPs and JTACs. Additionally, there is a program in place to train and certify certain 'ground pounders' as Joint Fires Observers, who are qualified to perform very, very limited forward air controller roles, in addition to calling for artillery, army rotary wing, and naval gunfire. The problem is that the Army send us to the school and gets us certified, then promptly decides that we are better used picking up cigarette butts rather than maintaining our currency. The end result is a guy who used to know, a couple of years ago, how to fill out a 9-line, and an AF pilot or three with no trust for anyone who says they are not a JTAC because some 13F fumbled a talk on that he hadn't had any sustainment training on in months.
Sorry for the little rant; as a fire supporter and JFO (and soon to be a JFO evaluator) I have been fighting this battle since I got to the force. We now return you to your regularly scheduled USAF vs. Army smackdown. |
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Posted: 8/11/2012 1:56:48 AM
Originally Posted By Katana16j:
Originally Posted By Sylvan:
Square me away. Give me "Why you must hate the Army" 101 PM Sent I'm curious as well. |
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stickfigure
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Posted: 8/11/2012 3:49:11 AM
[Last Edit: 8/11/2012 4:36:10 AM by stickfigure]
Originally Posted By CFII:
Hahahahahahahha
Fixed wing pilots or maintainers talking about being "power limited" You have no idea what power limited is. The mighty Kiowa is power limited. And look, damn near 1 MILLION combat flight hours later, we are still kicking ass, taking names, impressing chicks, and making dudes go to flight school from combat arms JUST to fly the Kiowa. CCA rocks. I do have experience flying rotorary wing as well, I was an HH-60G Pavehawk FE for a time. In the AF it's the FE's duty to perform W&B and TOLD. I have some desert flying, taking off at 45C, loaded at 22,000lbs, at 5300 feet being power limited and having to do rolling take offs just to make our sorties. Granted it wasn't in combat, but I do have combat hours in the C-130 as well. |
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Posted: 8/11/2012 4:40:26 AM
[Last Edit: 8/11/2012 6:42:53 PM by thatguywiththeak]
Originally Posted By Capt-Planet:
Originally Posted By Sylvan:
Originally Posted By stickfigure:
One problem with these smaller single engine aircraft that is they don't do well when it's hot and high altitude and they are loaded with ordnance. The Super Tucano has a ceiling of 10K meters with what kind of load? loaded or slightly empty?, these would work great at lower levels but the Hindu Kush mountains start at 7000 feet and they go up to 25K. We had problems taking off from Kandahar loaded in a C-130E when it was hot and heavy. Operating at high altitudes in the mountains of the Middle East is going to be sketchy with some of the smaller planes. That youtube video of the cockpit crash of a small airplane is a perfect example of what happens when you are loaded, struggling for altitude in the mountains and experience a rise in temperature or a change in wind direction. ah, super tuco bad. OH-58? Not a problem No sir, it needs to be supersonic capable. If it isn't, then we might as well not even build it. Dont forget about stealth. If it's not LO it's worthless. Doesnt matter if it's for COIN, if you arent planning every single acquisition for MCO you are failing to think strategically. |
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Posted: 8/11/2012 4:57:45 AM
Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
A half a dozen? We could buy thirty Tucanos or more for the flyaway price of an F22 and twice that for the total price of a single F22. If the Air Force is too fussy the Army could use it's own funds, I'm sure they would rather have their warrant officers zooming around in something like a Tucano than the Kiowa. That's what's so frusterating about this problem; it's not perfect by a long shot but the Army has cut and cancelled programs, shown the ability and willingness to shift it's money to meet the current crisis and I'm sure they would have something like this up and running by now if they were simply allowed to. In the modern scheme of things these light attack aircraft are almost like toy planes, there's no way they are going to encroach on the AF's main missions so I don't see what all the resistance is about. |
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Jarhead08
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Posted: 8/11/2012 8:27:13 AM
Originally Posted By David45: Key West Agreement
Originally Posted By Combat_Jack: A half a dozen? We could buy thirty Tucanos or more for the flyaway price of an F22 and twice that for the total price of a single F22. If the Air Force is too fussy the Army could use it's own funds, I'm sure they would rather have their warrant officers zooming around in something like a Tucano than the Kiowa. That's what's so frusterating about this problem; it's not perfect by a long shot but the Army has cut and cancelled programs, shown the ability and willingness to shift it's money to meet the current crisis and I'm sure they would have something like this up and running by now if they were simply allowed to. In the modern scheme of things these light attack aircraft are almost like toy planes, there's no way they are going to encroach on the AF's main missions so I don't see what all the resistance is about. |
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wag_bag
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Posted: 8/11/2012 9:00:17 AM
I love reading these threads, but sometimes they make my head hurt. They all generally go the same way. Ground commanders and troops make a good argument, air force troops come in and quote prcedural doctrine as to why that can't happen, and Marines come in and thumb their nose at everyone because their system works.
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Jarhead08
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Posted: 8/11/2012 9:19:19 AM
Originally Posted By wag_bag: I love reading these threads, but sometimes they make my head hurt. They all generally go the same way. Ground commanders and troops make a good argument, air force troops come in and quote prcedural doctrine as to why that can't happen, and Marines come in and thumb their nose at everyone because their system works.  |
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NUcadet07
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Posted: 8/11/2012 9:22:46 AM
Originally Posted By wag_bag:
I love reading these threads, but sometimes they make my head hurt. They all generally go the same way. Ground commanders and troops make a good argument, air force troops come in and quote prcedural doctrine as to why that can't happen, and Marines come in and thumb their nose at everyone because their system works. It's a vicious cycle. |
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Posted: 8/11/2012 9:43:34 AM
Originally Posted By Madcap72:
Originally Posted By stickfigure:
One problem with these smaller single engine aircraft that is they don't do well when it's hot and high altitude and they are loaded with ordnance. The Super Tucano has a ceiling of 10K meters with what kind of load? loaded or slightly empty?, these would work great at lower levels but the Hindu Kush mountains start at 7000 feet and they go up to 25K. We had problems taking off from Kandahar loaded in a C-130E when it was hot and heavy. Operating at high altitudes in the mountains of the Middle East is going to be sketchy with some of the smaller planes. That youtube video of the cockpit crash of a small airplane is a perfect example of what happens when you are loaded, struggling for altitude in the mountains and experience a rise in temperature or a change in wind direction. Obviously the nail in the coffin for the Army to have the option of small, nearby, aircraft to perform CAS and ISR. I mean, what can an OV-1D with a FLIR slaved trainable M230 do that a B1B can't? If heat is an issue, it makes one wonder how we ever operated light aircraft in Vietnam successfully. Google density altitude. Flying in the mountains, in the summer, can be a bitch. |
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wag_bag
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Posted: 8/11/2012 1:21:32 PM
Originally Posted By Jarhead08:
Originally Posted By wag_bag:
I love reading these threads, but sometimes they make my head hurt. They all generally go the same way. Ground commanders and troops make a good argument, air force troops come in and quote prcedural doctrine as to why that can't happen, and Marines come in and thumb their nose at everyone because their system works. http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Zarmigefox0/Tg_EMmW5ukI/AAAAAAAAA5o/NIyQVRUMYJM/s1600/snoopy_happy_dance.jpg LOL. Pretty much. |
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Sylvan
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Posted: 8/11/2012 1:21:39 PM
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Fullautoguy
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Posted: 8/11/2012 1:29:13 PM
Originally Posted By Covert8645:
Air combat controllers This and at least when I was in the 82nd we had af cct assigned to our battalion |
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Dog1
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Posted: 8/11/2012 2:01:33 PM
I cannot add anything to this conversation, but I have enjoyed this thread, reading posts from guys that have the experience on both sides of this.
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wtturn
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Posted: 8/11/2012 2:10:31 PM
Originally Posted By Dog1: I cannot add anything to this conversation, but I have enjoyed this thread, reading posts from guys that have the experience on both sides of this. Same. |
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Madcap72
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Posted: 8/11/2012 5:05:13 PM
Originally Posted By timmr: Originally Posted By Madcap72: Originally Posted By stickfigure: One problem with these smaller single engine aircraft that is they don't do well when it's hot and high altitude and they are loaded with ordnance. The Super Tucano has a ceiling of 10K meters with what kind of load? loaded or slightly empty?, these would work great at lower levels but the Hindu Kush mountains start at 7000 feet and they go up to 25K. We had problems taking off from Kandahar loaded in a C-130E when it was hot and heavy. Operating at high altitudes in the mountains of the Middle East is going to be sketchy with some of the smaller planes. That youtube video of the cockpit crash of a small airplane is a perfect example of what happens when you are loaded, struggling for altitude in the mountains and experience a rise in temperature or a change in wind direction. Obviously the nail in the coffin for the Army to have the option of small, nearby, aircraft to perform CAS and ISR. I mean, what can an OV-1D with a FLIR slaved trainable M230 do that a B1B can't? If heat is an issue, it makes one wonder how we ever operated light aircraft in Vietnam successfully. Google density altitude. Flying in the mountains, in the summer, can be a bitch. Soooo That is one of your arguments against a smaller, lighter airframe, that could do the job better, and more affordable, is that in certain situations, in certain regions, in certain times of the year, a different aircraft would have to be used? Do you understand how flat out ridiculous that sounds? |
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36_gauge
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Posted: 8/11/2012 5:07:08 PM
Originally Posted By wtturn:
Originally Posted By Dog1:
I cannot add anything to this conversation, but I have enjoyed this thread, reading posts from guys that have the experience on both sides of this. Same. Word. Although I'm partial to the saturating the air with 6000 Super Tuco's idea. |
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RockHard13F
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Posted: 8/12/2012 12:40:15 AM
Originally Posted By Madcap72: Originally Posted By Combat_Jack: A half a dozen? We could buy thirty Tucanos or more for the flyaway price of an F22 and twice that for the total price of a single F22. We could buy 6600 Taco's or so for the price of the F-22 program and saturate the airspace. This sounds like a brilliant idea- Comrade Stalin said it best: "Quantity has a quality all its own." or something like that.  Really though, I didn't realize the Tucanos were THAT cheap. I'd think we could make up the money to buy some in reduced flight costs alone over the life of the aircraft. |
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Jarhead08
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Posted: 8/12/2012 12:47:41 AM
Originally Posted By RockHard13F: Originally Posted By Madcap72: Originally Posted By Combat_Jack: A half a dozen? We could buy thirty Tucanos or more for the flyaway price of an F22 and twice that for the total price of a single F22. We could buy 6600 Taco's or so for the price of the F-22 program and saturate the airspace. This sounds like a brilliant idea- Comrade Stalin said it best: "Quantity has a quality all its own." or something like that. Really though, I didn't realize the Tucanos were THAT cheap. I'd think we could make up the money to buy some in reduced flight costs alone over the life of the aircraft. They're not first strike aircraft, AF isn't interested. |
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