Login System 
IMPORTANT: Please note that you must now log in with your email address and not your username!
ARCHIVED
 |
Posted: 8/8/2012 1:42:08 PM
Originally Posted By phatmax:
Originally Posted By Red_Label:
Reminds me of an earlier time as a young [naive] pilot. I was taking my buddy up in a 152. I was "normal" size back then. He was a "big" guy, but I really was naive about how much people weigh. We start our takeoff roll at BIL (10,000' runway) and I'm just not getting this little tin can to pop off the runway. Every time I pull back on the yoke, the creepy, goat-dying stall warning horn blares. Finally, about 1/3 of the way down the runway I call Tower and tell them I'm aborting takeoff (don't remember what reason I gave them, if any). I taxi off the run way, hit the brakes and ask my buddy "so... uh... HOW much do you weigh?" He responds, "320#". LOL!!! That's an entire pax load for a 152! Geesh. Live and learn... (and thankfully, I DID live and learn)  His left asscheek in your lap didn't give it away? LOL!!! Believe it or not, he didn't seem that big. He was pretty muscular, so his ass wasn't that wide. At any rate, ANY time a pair of doods gets in a C152 it's like putting on spandex pants! 
|
|
|
Shung
EBR crew chief
Team Member
Joined: Feb 2008  CHE
 Posts: 9779 Feedback: 100% (14) Link To This Post |
Posted: 8/8/2012 1:42:12 PM
[Last Edit: 8/8/2012 1:49:11 PM by Shung]
Am I the only pilot here to think, that even if the major screw up was taking off too heavy in a hot day at high elevation, that MAYBE the day could have been "saved" if the guy maintained a lower altitude after take off, trying to gain as much speed as possible , and not trying to gain altitude at first ?
I mean. When your plane is that heavy, you know it as soon as you are airborne... He should have reached a higher speed, and then try to climb... Trying to climb and keeping high AOA was definetely NOT the thing to do... Life = speed and alt... If I cannot get alt, I would at least trying to get as much speed while I can, and then trade it for alt... Basically energy management |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/8/2012 1:43:10 PM
was that an ashtray on the dash????
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/8/2012 1:45:38 PM
Originally Posted By Shung:
Am I the only pilot here to think, that even if the major screw up was taking off too heavy in a hot day at high elevation, the day could have been "saved" if the guy maintained a lower altitude after take off, trying to gain as much speed as possible , and not trying to gain altitude at first ? I mean. When your plane is that heavy, you know it as soon as you are airborne... He should have reached a higher speed, and then try to climb... Trying to climb and keeping high AOA was definetely NOT the thing to do... Life = speed and alt... If I cannot get alt, I would at least trying to get as much speed while I can, and then trade it for alt... Basically energy management Ran through my mind as well. Part of STOL training (of course, being overloaded or out of CG isn't). |
|
|
SmilingBandit
Damn these electric sex pants!
Team Member
Joined: Jan 2005  NE, USA
Posts: 22644 Feedback: 0% (0) Link To This Post |
Posted: 8/8/2012 1:47:50 PM
Originally Posted By Shung:
Am I the only pilot here to think, that even if the major screw up was taking off too heavy in a hot day at high elevation, the day could have been "saved" if the guy maintained a lower altitude after take off, trying to gain as much speed as possible , and not trying to gain altitude at first ? I mean. When your plane is that heavy, you know it as soon as you are airborne... He should have reached a higher speed, and then try to climb... Trying to climb and keeping high AOA was definetely NOT the thing to do... Life = speed and alt... If I cannot get alt, I would at least trying to get as much speed while I can, and then trade it for alt... Basically energy management I don't expect that he would have been able to gain enough speed to gain any appreciable altitude. |
|
|
AZ_Sky
Living vicariously through myself
Team Member
Joined: Mar 2002 AZ, USA
Posts: 10750 Feedback: 0% (0) Link To This Post |
Posted: 8/8/2012 1:48:22 PM
 |
|
|
Shung
EBR crew chief
Team Member
Joined: Feb 2008 CHE
Posts: 9780 Feedback: 100% (14) Link To This Post |
Posted: 8/8/2012 1:51:42 PM
[Last Edit: 8/8/2012 1:52:56 PM by Shung]
Originally Posted By SmilingBandit:
Originally Posted By Shung:
Am I the only pilot here to think, that even if the major screw up was taking off too heavy in a hot day at high elevation, the day could have been "saved" if the guy maintained a lower altitude after take off, trying to gain as much speed as possible , and not trying to gain altitude at first ? I mean. When your plane is that heavy, you know it as soon as you are airborne... He should have reached a higher speed, and then try to climb... Trying to climb and keeping high AOA was definetely NOT the thing to do... Life = speed and alt... If I cannot get alt, I would at least trying to get as much speed while I can, and then trade it for alt... Basically energy management I don't expect that he would have been able to gain enough speed to gain any appreciable altitude. Well, the game here was just being able to keep flying above the trees...... It's better to be 10ft above the trees with a neutral or positive RoC than 100ft above but going down with a positive AoA.. Anyway. That was a messed up situation to begin with. And they are all lucky. Very lucky |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/8/2012 1:59:11 PM
Originally Posted By TZLVredmist:
The Pilot owns multiple aircraft, so you would think he would be experienced. I think he just got complacent. Complacency kills, he is lucky this was not one of those times. |
|
|
|
Bubbatheredneck
Member
Team Member
Joined: Feb 2001 USA
Posts: 14623 Feedback: 100% (27) Link To This Post |
Posted: 8/8/2012 2:04:50 PM
[Last Edit: 8/8/2012 2:05:28 PM by Bubbatheredneck]
Originally Posted By Star_Scream: Yup, plus there is a big difference between 2000 hours experience and 20 hours experience repeated 100 times.
Originally Posted By Him: I wonder how many hours the pilot had, and in what. As pointed out in another thread. Hours aren't as important as skill or common sense. |
|
|
|
BamaInArk
Time for Action
Team Member
Joined: Oct 2008 AR, USA
Posts: 2524 Feedback: 0% (0) Link To This Post |
Posted: 8/8/2012 2:13:37 PM
The 2nd video offered a little bit of a clue. I noticed the flaps were up. Surely he could have lowered flaps even a little to gain a little more lift. I understand the lift over drag "L/D" physics. He obviously needed more airspeed and not any more drag but even partial flaps might have helped somewhat before the induced drag(parasitic drag) was a problem. Any aero engineers who can offer an opinion?
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/8/2012 2:15:44 PM
Originally Posted By Bubbatheredneck:
Yup, plus there is a big difference between 2000 hours experience and 20 hours experience repeated 100 times. WERD My old boss was a bold pilot with 1500+ hours. He's not around to be an old pilot. I knew something like this was eventually gonna happen to him. I used to fly this plane and it was sad to see her go this way (and of course the loss of life). Accident Occurred on: 2000-01-23 00:00:00 Narrative (ACCP): HISTORY OF FLIGHT On January 23, 2000, at 1853 Pacific standard time, a Mooney M20K, N251BD, was destroyed when it collided with terrain approximately 1.5 miles from the end of runway 29, shortly after takeoff from Pendleton, Oregon. The private pilot and his passenger were fatally injured. The airplane had been cleared for takeoff approximately two minutes before the pilot declared a "Mayday." Instrument meteorological conditions prevailed, and the pilot had received an Instrument Flight Rules (IFR) clearance to climb to ten thousand feet mean sea level (MSL) en route to Eugene, Oregon. The airplane burned after impact. The emergency locator beacon (ELT) assisted in the location of the wreckage. The pilot had departed Billings, Montana, earlier in the day on a Visual Flight Rules (VFR) flight plan, with a destination of Creswell, Oregon. While en route, he had picked up an IFR clearance, and had closed his VFR flight plan. He had elected to land at Pendleton while en route. During approach to Pendleton, he had advised that he was encountering icing conditions, and had requested that after-hours refueling be made available. After landing, he had parked on the ramp and his airplane was refueled ("topped off") with 36.6 gallons of 100 octane low-lead aviation gasoline. The pilot borrowed a 2" x 6" wheel chock from the refueler and - according to the refueler - "...started pounding the leading edges of the wings and vertical stabilizer. After finishing the vertical stabilizer, he [the pilot] made the comment that his airplane was now deiced." The refueler, who was a highly experienced general aviation commercial pilot, did not specifically observe the pilot knocking the ice off the leading edge of the horizontal stabilizer. During an interview by investigators, the refueler stated that about a half inch of somewhat moist snow had accumulated on the wings of the airplane prior to the time he fueled the airplane, necessitating brushing snow away from the fuel caps. He stated that after wiping the snow off, there was still a covering of rough ice on the upper surface of the wing. During the fueling, he noticed that none of the ice on the wing had melted (ambient temperature at the time of the accident was minus 1 degree Celsius). In a written statement, the refueler stated, "after refueling, I looked at the right wing leading edge and pointed out some rough ice behind the area that he [the pilot] had cleared, both on top and bottom of the wing. Rubbing his hand over the rough area, he commented that there wasn't enough ice to make any difference." "He then paid for the fuel, requesting a cash receipt. I went to the office to complete a receipt and then returned to the aircraft. I did not leave my vehicle and did not observe whether or not any additional snow or ice had been removed from the wing. The aircraft departed immediately. I observed the aircraft taking off about 1/3 of the way down the runway. It appeared and sounded normal." The air traffic controller observed the airplane using most of the 5,581-foot runway during its takeoff roll. After losing sight of the airplane, and issuing a hand-off to contact departure control, he heard the pilot radio "Mayday, mayday, two five one bravo delta going down." There were no further communications with the airplane. The wreckage was located in rolling terrain about 1.5 miles west-northwest of the departure end of the runway. METEOROLOGICAL INFORMATION The most recent weather sequence, at 1856 local, reported winds of 350 degrees at 3 knots, visibility 1 statute mile with light snow and mist, a broken cloud layer at 700 feet, 1,500 foot overcast, temperature and dew point of minus 1 degree Celsius, altimeter 30.04 inches Mercury, and tower reporting visibility of two miles. COMMUNICATIONS Contract tower personnel at Pendleton air traffic control tower stated that the pilot called for an IFR clearance at 1848, taxi clearance at 1849, and called ready for departure at 1851. The controller logged the departure as 1855 from runway 29, IFR to Eugene. WRECKAGE AND IMPACT INFORMATION The wreckage was located in an open field at N45 degrees 42.85 minutes, W118 degrees 52.66 minutes, approximately 8,150 feet from the departure end of runway 29, and slightly to the right of the extended centerline. At the time of inspection by investigators, the surface was muddy, with several inches of snow. The wreckage was oriented on a heading of 175 degrees on the centerline of the fuselage, from tail to nose. A ground impact scar, of about 40 feet overall length, and oriented on a heading of 016 degrees toward the main wreckage, was observed. The right-hand wing tip was located next to the ground scar, furthest from the main wreckage. The inboard section of the right wing, followed by the outboard section of the right wing, were located between the main wreckage and the ground impact scar. The right landing gear was found retracted in the wheel well, and the right flap was up. The cockpit area, forward of the trailing edge of the wing, was consumed by fire, and it was still smoldering at the time of the onsite investigation. The tailcone, aft of the cabin area, exhibited extensive wrinkling. The empennage surfaces were intact; the elevator was resting in the down position, and the rudder was neutral. Control continuity of the rudder and elevator was established to the aft portion of the cabin The vacuum pump was disassembled; its rotor was fractured, its vanes were intact. The coupling was consumed by fire. One blade of the two-bladed propeller was exposed; the other was embedded in the surface. The exposed blade exhibited leading edge gouges and scratches running diagonally across the face. The blade was bent aft in a gentle arc. MEDICAL AND PATHOLOGICAL INFORMATION SallyAnn G. Clausen, M.D., conducted the post-mortem examination of the pilot at the facilities of Burns Mortuary, 336 SW Dorion, Pendleton, Oregon, on Jan 24, 2000. The FAA's Toxicology Accident and Research Laboratory, Oklahoma City, Oklahoma conducted toxicological evaluation of samples from the pilot. The findings were reported as negative (refer to attached TOX report). TESTS AND RESEARCH The engine was disassembled and inspected at the facilities of Teledyne Continental, Mobile, Alabama, on August 23, 2000. There was no evidence of pre-impact malfunction noted during the examination. ADDITIONAL DATA The wreckage, except for the engine, was released to the insurance adjuster, as owner's representative, on March 9, 2000. The engine was released to the insurance adjuster on August 29, 2000 (refer to attached NTSB Form 6120.15). Narrative (ACCF): After landing to refuel, the pilot made an inadequate effort to remove airframe ice and snow, which had accumulated while on the ground before departing for his final destination. A witness (refueler) observed that about a half inch of somewhat moist snow had accumulated on the wings of the airplane prior to the time he fueled the airplane, necessitating brushing snow away from the fuel caps. The witness (refueler) stated that after wiping the snow off, there was still a covering of rough ice on the upper surface of the wing. During the fueling, he noticed that none of the ice on the wing had melted (ambient temperature at the time of the accident was minus 1 degree Celsius). The witness (refueler) also reported that after refueling the airplane, he looked at the right wing leading edge and pointed out some rough ice behind the area that the pilot had cleared, both on top and bottom of the wing. The pilot had rubbed his hand over the rough area, commenting that there wasn't enough ice to make any difference, before attempting his takeoff. The airplane crashed within two miles of the airport. The pilot's last radio communication received was that he was 'going down.' Post-crash examination of the engine revealed no evidence of pre-impact malfunction. Narrative (CAUSE): The pilot's failure to adequately remove ice and snow from the airplane. A contributing factor was the pilot's inability to maintain control during climb due to degradation of the airplane's aerodynamic performance. |
|
|
CFII
Kiowa Driver
Industry Partner
Joined: Oct 2002 AL, USA
Posts: 13712 Feedback: 100% (20) Link To This Post |
Posted: 8/8/2012 2:16:08 PM
That other video was just sad. The dude backed into a corner RIGHT AFTER he was over a nice, low, lake. Yea, his stall warning horn went off three times, but that doesnt mean the wing was stalled. Oh, and he seemed to have spun it in right at the end for dramatic effect.
 |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/8/2012 2:17:14 PM
Originally Posted By MTUSA:
Looks like excess weight in the fuselage... Just because there are 4 seats.... |
|
|
|
RRD3
The Second Amendment is the Equal Rights Amendment
Team Member
Joined: Mar 2009 CO, USA
Posts: 6658 Feedback: 0% (0) Link To This Post |
Posted: 8/8/2012 2:24:20 PM
Originally Posted By Hugo_Stiglitz: Density altitude. Should have had a better handle on the weather that day. Blue skies are pretty, but here's proof that in some places that pretty sky will try to kill ya. ETA, He was over open ground when he started having troubles, he never should have maintained his bearing into those trees in my opinion. Or the fucking mountains. Altitude, hot day and a heavy load makes for a bad day and the PIC should have known that before take off and even more so on taxi. |
|
|
dfowler21
Member
Team Member
Joined: Feb 2005 NC, USA
Posts: 1182 Feedback: 100% (3) Link To This Post |
Posted: 8/8/2012 2:35:38 PM
I would say an airplane at full power, and unable to climb has reached its absolute ceiling. Assuming standard pressure and 85 degrees, he was at almost 9400 da sitting on the ground. Anyone have performance data for a Stinson?
Originally Posted By SmilingBandit: Originally Posted By ti8589: he is well out of ground effect at 70ft. you know better. i suspect he hit service ceiling d/t DA at 70ft agl. Originally Posted By SmilingBandit: Originally Posted By danpass: Despite my studying I always wonder with these situations ........... why would it gain 70ft of altitude if its not going to hit 140ft? The density altitude between those two heights is miniscule. Ground effect. It's pretty unlikely that he hit his ceiling 70 ft AGL. As I said earlier, I expect that he gained some speed while in ground effect then ran out of that energy at the end of that short climb and hung out at Vy going no further up until he pulled back when he got close to the trees. |
|
|
|
SmilingBandit
Damn these electric sex pants!
Team Member
Joined: Jan 2005 NE, USA
Posts: 22646 Feedback: 0% (0) Link To This Post |
Posted: 8/8/2012 2:38:30 PM
Originally Posted By dfowler21:
I would say an airplane at full power, and unable to climb has reached its absolute ceiling. Assuming standard pressure and 85 degrees, he was at almost 9400 da sitting on the ground. Anyone have performance data for a Stinson? My point is that he was likely above his actual ceiling and it wasn't just a few feet above airport altitude. |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/8/2012 2:44:08 PM
Originally Posted By SmilingBandit:
Originally Posted By dfowler21:
I would say an airplane at full power, and unable to climb has reached its absolute ceiling. Assuming standard pressure and 85 degrees, he was at almost 9400 da sitting on the ground. Anyone have performance data for a Stinson? My point is that he was likely above his actual ceiling and it wasn't just a few feet above airport altitude. I swear I heard.... ta-pocketa ta-pocketa ta-pocketa.... |
|
|
Sierra5
Man of 15 titles, most good
Team Member
Joined: Apr 2007 USA
Posts: 5366 Feedback: 100% (3) Link To This Post |
Posted: 8/8/2012 2:48:26 PM
Damn!
|
|
|
|
NoVaGator
No longer in NoVa
Team Member
Joined: Oct 2002 VA, USA
Posts: 30199 Feedback: 100% (25) Link To This Post |
Posted: 8/8/2012 2:54:30 PM
Originally Posted By dfowler21:
I would say an airplane at full power, and unable to climb has reached its absolute ceiling. Assuming standard pressure and 85 degrees, he was at almost 9400 da sitting on the ground. Anyone have performance data for a Stinson? I'm sure my FIL will chime in with more info than you'll ever want to know about the Stinson. He's been flying them since he was 12. Here's my wife's great-grandmother: (It will give you an idea of the age of the crashed Stinson )
|
|
|
dfowler21
Member
Team Member
Joined: Feb 2005 NC, USA
Posts: 1183 Feedback: 100% (3) Link To This Post |
Posted: 8/8/2012 3:04:53 PM
Ah. So we have been pretty much saying the same thing. I found data that the service ceiling was 16500 but obviously that's the marketing crap for standard day, one person, new plane, and not much else.
Originally Posted By SmilingBandit: Originally Posted By dfowler21: I would say an airplane at full power, and unable to climb has reached its absolute ceiling. Assuming standard pressure and 85 degrees, he was at almost 9400 da sitting on the ground. Anyone have performance data for a Stinson? My point is that he was likely above his actual ceiling and it wasn't just a few feet above airport altitude. |
|
|
|
dfowler21
Member
Team Member
Joined: Feb 2005 NC, USA
Posts: 1184 Feedback: 100% (3) Link To This Post |
Posted: 8/8/2012 3:05:51 PM
I'm sure the actual numbers won't look good at all. I'd love to see the actual climb data for those conditions.
Originally Posted By NoVaGator: Originally Posted By dfowler21: I would say an airplane at full power, and unable to climb has reached its absolute ceiling. Assuming standard pressure and 85 degrees, he was at almost 9400 da sitting on the ground. Anyone have performance data for a Stinson? I'm sure my FIL will chime in with more info than you'll ever want to know about the Stinson. He's been flying them since he was 12. Here's my wife's great-grandmother: (It will give you an idea of the age of the crashed Stinson ) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x8OM8mP1prM |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/8/2012 3:06:17 PM
[Last Edit: 8/8/2012 3:50:09 PM by extractr]
This brings back flashbacks of my youth. When I was 16, a neighbor of mine ran some hunting camps in the Frank Church Wilderness area. He had his pilots licence and would fly my scout troop into cold meadows airstrip and we would help him set up his camps. One of the boys had to leave early, and he was going to fly him out to Salmon, ID. He had 2 extra searts on the plane so the rest of the boys drew straws to see who got to go on an extra plane ride. I was one of the (un)lucky ones. On the trip out a storm hit. We were getting tossed everywhere. One boy hurled several times. I remember the crosswind was so bad, coming into land, we were looking out the side window as we approached the runway. At the last second he turned the nose sharply and touched down. We dropped the boy off, and took off to return to camp. As we were getting into the canyons, the clouds were dropping fast. The pilot told us, if I can make it through that narrow gap, we may be able to see the runway. If not, we will have to pull up and hope we don't hit a mountain. He ended up electing not to risk it and made a very sharp turn in the canyon. He elected to try a lower airstrip at Root Ranch. After a few more canyons the cloud level was just over the plane and dropping. We cleared a few ridges by less then 10 feet. Upon approaching the airstrip, there was one small ridge in front of it. We suddenly got hit by a downdraft and dropped sharply. The wheel clipped a tree top as we passed over. The pilot let out an F-bomb, and quickly gave it more throttle. As we were about to touch down, we noticed about 30 elk on the runway. The pilot just said hold on, and touched down. The elk scattered as we narrowly missed them.
It was 3 days before we could make it back up to the camp. We were able to stay at the ranch there and had hot showers and meals, while the guys at camp were out of food and eating fish heads in the snow.  .
My sphincter still puckers up every time I think about it. |
|
|
|
NoVaGator
No longer in NoVa
Team Member
Joined: Oct 2002 VA, USA
Posts: 30201 Feedback: 100% (25) Link To This Post |
Posted: 8/8/2012 3:08:09 PM
here you go, from the FIL:
"While watching the video I kept saying: "abort the take-off! abort the take-off!" because the plane was taking WAY TOO MUCH ground run without lifting off. It was VERY OBVIOUS the plane was either way over weight for the airfield altitude or air temperature and the pilot should have recognized the take-off performance was ridiculously inadequate and aborted while he had runway (turf airstrip) to stop. I know, from first-hand experience, with the engine properly operating, that airplane with full legal load, will get off MUCH shorter than shown in the video and climb at least 300 feet per minute with the airport altitude about 1000 ft. above sea level. It was June 30th at a little after 2:00 p.m. in Idaho where there is plenty of "high country" so it could have been a case of very high airport density altitude but the commercial pilot should have been very aware of such conditions and, if those were the conditions, should never have even started the engine. Any pilot in any airplane should be able to see when the airplane isn't taking off and climbing normally; and the accident report states he's a COMMERCIAL pilot! Was he some how incapacitated? My Stinson 108-1, with full fuel, can carry 690 lbs. in the cabin to get up to max allowable gross weight. The accident airplane was a dash 3 which means 10 more hp. and a little more allowable load. It appeared there were 4 adult men in the plane so some of them had to be fairly small, as men go, to be within gross weight even for sea-level operations much less high altitude" |
|
|
sigp226
No_Limit_Cracka
Team Member
Joined: Jun 2006  LBY
Posts: 11213 Feedback: 100% (1) Link To This Post |
Posted: 8/8/2012 3:08:49 PM
Originally Posted By thebeekeeper1:
Is it common for the pilot to be so quiet during an obvious bad time? It seems something like "Hold on––we're going in!" would at least be reflexive. The dead silence was disconcerting to me.  It is if he knows he's in a tight spot and he's desperately trying to think of a way out of it. IMO that video is a perfect example of complacency and its result. He ignored his weight and performance and when he got off the ground, he realized that he was committed. So he was probably thinking, first, that the plane would climb a little more; second, that he couldn't land because the ground is rough and it could flip or spin the plane if one of the wheels hit an obstruction; third, that he couldn't turn because he couldn't gain altitude; and then if he could find an updraft, he'd get out of it. |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/8/2012 3:16:07 PM
Not a pilot, well I'm a highly skilled MSFS pilot haha but it looked like he was having problems gaining altitude on the take off. looked to be a long roll out for that plane
|
|
|
|
PanzerOfDoom
Was ist das Scheisse
Team Member
Joined: Mar 2004 GA, USA
Posts: 9528 Feedback: 100% (1) Link To This Post |
Posted: 8/8/2012 3:18:49 PM
Originally Posted By Kalahnikid:
Density altitude is a bitch. eta: Looks like maybe a stinson 108 or maule? Don't think a Maule would have that kind of issue. Long, long roll out very slow climb. No power. |
|
|
pcsutton
Member ....but not a 3rd member
Team Member
Joined: Sep 2004 TX, USA
Posts: 23721 Feedback: 100% (1) Link To This Post |
Posted: 8/8/2012 3:19:01 PM
I used to be in and out of a ton of the 'back country' strips in adjoining the Frank Church Wilderness and on the Payette Natl.Forrest....that looked like the Meadow Creek strip. It's pretty well used to ferry rafters into/out of the Middle Fork of the Salmon River for float trips. It's the only strip I can recall being in that big of a valley and with that flat of a departure. Some of those strips are 700' x 30' and you better be 300' high when you pass the end of it.
A lot of the guys who 'ass 'n trash' out of those strips have as many hours flying as they do walking. That guy just didn't do the math. I bet he doesn't do that again.  Dewey Moore Airstrip is located on the north side of Big Creek about 19-miles west of the junction of Big Creek and the Middle Fork of the Salmon River. Wheeeeee!!!  |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/8/2012 3:24:32 PM
Is why I don't fly in puddle hoppers... Glad everyone made it out safe.
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/8/2012 3:25:18 PM
Originally Posted By SmilingBandit:
Originally Posted By dfowler21:
I would say an airplane at full power, and unable to climb has reached its absolute ceiling. Assuming standard pressure and 85 degrees, he was at almost 9400 da sitting on the ground. Anyone have performance data for a Stinson? My point is that he was likely above his actual ceiling and it wasn't just a few feet above airport altitude. Hey Jimmy, ring the bell, we've got a winner. We see this shit in the islands all the time. No mountains (usually), Capt. Aloha puts X people, a shit ton of baggage, coolers, outboard engines, etc. 94F on the runway, 0 wind, 2100 ft of paved, call C. G. Station Miami... |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/8/2012 3:38:24 PM
Originally Posted By pcsutton:
I used to be in and out of a ton of the 'back country' strips in adjoining the Frank Church Wilderness and on the Payette Natl.Forrest....that looked like the Meadow Creek strip. It's pretty well used to ferry rafters into/out of the Middle Fork of the Salmon River for float trips. It's the only strip I can recall being in that big of a valley and with that flat of a departure. Some of those strips are 700' x 30' and you better be 300' high when you pass the end of it. A lot of the guys who 'ass 'n trash' out of those strips have as many hours flying as they do walking. That guy just didn't do the math. I bet he doesn't do that again.
Dewey Moore Airstrip is located on the north side of Big Creek about 19-miles west of the junction of Big Creek and the Middle Fork of the Salmon River. Wheeeeee!!!
http://www.mountainflying.com/Pages/airstrips/airstrip-images/DeweyMoore1m.jpg Dayum... I always preferred to take-off on runways longer than my driveway!
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/8/2012 3:40:26 PM
Lots of fun strips like in the OP's video around Idaho.
Here is a small video of my friends flying into a private strip on the Salmon. I have landed here twice in the Caravan with him and the terrain sounder goes crazy. Plus the fact of the house being so close = Fun!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4SthgL8MFno |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/8/2012 3:42:34 PM
Originally Posted By extractr:
This brings back flashbacks of my youth. When I was 16, a neighbor of mine ran some hunting camps in the Frank Church Wilderness area. He had his pilots licence and would fly my scout troop into cold meadows airstrip and we would help him set up his camps. One of the boys had to leave early, and he was going to fly him out to Salmon, ID. He had 2 extra searts on the plane so the rest of the boys drew straws to see who got to go on an extra plane ride. I was one of the (un)lucky ones. On the trip out a storm hit. We were getting tossed everywhere. One boy hurled several times. I remember the crosswind was so bad, coming into land, we were looking out the side window as we approached the runway. At the last second he turned the nose sharply and touched down. We dropped the boy off, and took off to return to camp. As we were getting into the canyons, the clouds were dropping fast. The pilot told us, if I can make it through that narrow gap, we may be able to see the runway. If not, we will have to pull up and hope we don't hit a mountain. He ended up electing not to risk it and made a very sharp turn in the canyon. He elected to try a lower airstrip at Root Ranch. After a few more canyons the cloud level was just over the plane and dropping. We cleared a few ridges by less then 10 feet. Upon approaching the airstrip, there was one small ridge in front of it. We suddenly hit an airpocket and dropped sharply. The wheel clipped a tree top as we passed over. The pilot let out an F-bomb, and quickly gave it more throttle. As we were about to touch down, we noticed about 30 elk on ghe runway. The pilot just.said hold on, and touched down. The elk scattered as we narrowly missed them. It was 3 days before we could make it back up to the camp. We were able to stay at the ranch there and had hot showers and meals, while the guys at camp were out of food and eating fish heads in the snow. .
My sphincter still puckers up every time I think about it. Dang... that's a helluva story! Would definitely make someone think twice about getting in another plane. In regards to that "air pocket" that you hit... it was likely just a downdraft.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/8/2012 3:46:33 PM
[Last Edit: 8/8/2012 3:54:30 PM by retroangles]
Originally Posted By MTUSA:
Looks like excess weight in the fuselage... +2 looks overloaded to me. This happened about 100mi or so NW of me.... Whoever said that he was "knowledgable because he had his commercial license" is missing the big picture! I have met more than one pilot that had experience! But lacked common sense! In other words you can be a complete dumbass, but as long as you check the boxes, and get your e ticket punched, you can move on up in the aviation world. Your an accident waiting to happen(like this guy), but still competent on paper! |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/8/2012 3:55:37 PM
[Last Edit: 8/8/2012 4:18:56 PM by extractr]
Originally Posted By Red_Label:
Originally Posted By extractr:
This brings back flashbacks of my youth. When I was 16, a neighbor of mine ran some hunting camps in the Frank Church Wilderness area. He had his pilots licence and would fly my scout troop into cold meadows airstrip and we would help him set up his camps. One of the boys had to leave early, and he was going to fly him out to Salmon, ID. He had 2 extra searts on the plane so the rest of the boys drew straws to see who got to go on an extra plane ride. I was one of the (un)lucky ones. On the trip out a storm hit. We were getting tossed everywhere. One boy hurled several times. I remember the crosswind was so bad, coming into land, we were looking out the side window as we approached the runway. At the last second he turned the nose sharply and touched down. We dropped the boy off, and took off to return to camp. As we were getting into the canyons, the clouds were dropping fast. The pilot told us, if I can make it through that narrow gap, we may be able to see the runway. If not, we will have to pull up and hope we don't hit a mountain. He ended up electing not to risk it and made a very sharp turn in the canyon. He elected to try a lower airstrip at Root Ranch. After a few more canyons the cloud level was just over the plane and dropping. We cleared a few ridges by less then 10 feet. Upon approaching the airstrip, there was one small ridge in front of it. We suddenly hit an airpocket and dropped sharply. The wheel clipped a tree top as we passed over. The pilot let out an F-bomb, and quickly gave it more throttle. As we were about to touch down, we noticed about 30 elk on ghe runway. The pilot just.said hold on, and touched down. The elk scattered as we narrowly missed them. It was 3 days before we could make it back up to the camp. We were able to stay at the ranch there and had hot showers and meals, while the guys at camp were out of food and eating fish heads in the snow. .
My sphincter still puckers up every time I think about it. Dang... that's a helluva story! Would definitely make someone think twice about getting in another plane. In regards to that "air pocket" that you hit... it was likely just a downdraft.
Fixed it. Shows how much I know about flying. I just remember the pilot after we landed apologized for cussing in front of us and explained that the bad air pocket nearly caused us to crash. It was also bad that none of us had a change of underwear. There is actually a web cam that shows the strip we landed at and the ridge we almost hit. It is the root ranch South webcam. We flew over the big ridge in the background clearing it by about 10 feet. We turned 180 degrees to line up with the airstrip and almost hit the smallest ridge as we were coming in. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/8/2012 4:02:03 PM
Airspeed, Altitude, Brains- you need 2 of these to be able to fly. I counted 0 in that video.
 |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/8/2012 4:22:17 PM
Old people do that shit in cars too. |
|
|
|
Brownie63
Pre-Obama Chevys Only
Team Member
Joined: Oct 2006 GA, USA
Posts: 6645 Feedback: 0% (0) Link To This Post |
Posted: 8/8/2012 4:28:44 PM
Originally Posted By thebeekeeper1:
Originally Posted By JustinOK34:
Unbelievable. My guess is its not the first time that yahoo took off without performing any kind of takeoff data/weight & balance. Someone else mentioned "high temps"––does that mean that during times of high ambient temperatures the less dense air doesn't provide as much lift? That seems obvious, but can such things be calculated accurately in order to avoid this kind of thing? Obviously I know nothing about flying––except I don't want to crash. I know that much. High temp = less dense air. Hurts you three ways: 1. Less lift for wings 2. Prop is less effective in lower density air for the same reason the wings are less effective 3. Engine no likey less dense air for at least two reasons. Fuel air expansion at pre-ignition/post-ignition is less dramatic if air is already partially expanded due higher temp. Less dense air also provides less Oxygen for ignition. There are small fields that I can use during the Winter, that I cannot use during the Summer down here due to temperature alone. Density altitude is just not really a factor for us in South Georgia. In my small plane, I can stuff the plane full during Winter, but am very weight conscious during the Summer. Usually, I carry much less fuel during the Summer. During the Winter, I can pretty much keep the tanks filled. Take-off roll is dramatically different in hot vs cool air. So, the dude in the video had a density altitude; temp; and weight combination problem. A prolonged and slow take-off roll was his clue. He was in trouble his whole flight. He knew it but couldn't do shit about it. His passengers didn't know it.  |
|
|
BillofRights
Member
Team Member
Joined: Jul 2001 USA
Posts: 22094 Feedback: 100% (10) Link To This Post |
Posted: 8/8/2012 4:34:48 PM
[Last Edit: 8/8/2012 4:35:41 PM by BillofRights]
Originally Posted By BamaInArk: The 2nd video offered a little bit of a clue. I noticed the flaps were up. Surely he could have lowered flaps even a little to gain a little more lift. I understand the lift over drag "L/D" physics. He obviously needed more airspeed and not any more drag but even partial flaps might have helped somewhat before the induced drag(parasitic drag) was a problem. Any aero engineers who can offer an opinion? No, it doesn't work that way. The flaps may have allowed him to hit the trees 5 seconds later and 5 KTS slower, but they aren't magic. Flying is a zero sum game. It's all about energy management. Flaps use up energy (drag). They don't add any. What he needed was better judgement, or barring that, more power. I wonder if he forgot to lean out the engine. That alone MIght have given him enough power to escape the 'tard trap he got himself into. But mostly, he should have aborted while still on the ground.
|
|
|
BillofRights
Member
Team Member
Joined: Jul 2001 USA
Posts: 22095 Feedback: 100% (10) Link To This Post |
Posted: 8/8/2012 4:39:50 PM
Originally Posted By Thepilot: Airspeed, Altitude, Brains- you need 2 of these to be able to fly. I counted 0 in that video. You forgot the most important one: Money. He had one of Four. Just enough to be dangerous. He ran out of Airspeed, Altitude and Ideas, simultaneously.  |
|
|
James23
Member
Team Member
Joined: Sep 2005 IL, USA
Posts: 8379 Feedback: 100% (1) Link To This Post |
Posted: 8/8/2012 4:47:13 PM
Never achieved any real positive rate of climb. Looked like he shoved it off the ground before it was ready to fly, and it appears it was never going to be ready under those conditions. |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/8/2012 4:50:41 PM
Originally Posted By thebeekeeper1:
Originally Posted By JustinOK34:
Unbelievable. My guess is its not the first time that yahoo took off without performing any kind of takeoff data/weight & balance. Someone else mentioned "high temps"––does that mean that during times of high ambient temperatures the less dense air doesn't provide as much lift? That seems obvious, but can such things be calculated accurately in order to avoid this kind of thing? Obviously I know nothing about flying––except I don't want to crash. I know that much. Multiple failures here . High altitude , high temperatures , over loaded . The high temps. w/out the extra weight can hurt you when taking off from airfields that are high in elevation ( anything higher than sea level effects your take off ) . This guy was eventually going to get hurt . It's a very good thing he didn't take someone else out w/ his mistake . He needs to go back to ground school before getting near another airplane . You experienced pilots can sound off NOW . |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/8/2012 4:51:54 PM
[Last Edit: 8/8/2012 4:52:54 PM by Red_Label]
Originally Posted By extractr:
Originally Posted By Red_Label:
Originally Posted By extractr:
This brings back flashbacks of my youth. When I was 16, a neighbor of mine ran some hunting camps in the Frank Church Wilderness area. He had his pilots licence and would fly my scout troop into cold meadows airstrip and we would help him set up his camps. One of the boys had to leave early, and he was going to fly him out to Salmon, ID. He had 2 extra searts on the plane so the rest of the boys drew straws to see who got to go on an extra plane ride. I was one of the (un)lucky ones. On the trip out a storm hit. We were getting tossed everywhere. One boy hurled several times. I remember the crosswind was so bad, coming into land, we were looking out the side window as we approached the runway. At the last second he turned the nose sharply and touched down. We dropped the boy off, and took off to return to camp. As we were getting into the canyons, the clouds were dropping fast. The pilot told us, if I can make it through that narrow gap, we may be able to see the runway. If not, we will have to pull up and hope we don't hit a mountain. He ended up electing not to risk it and made a very sharp turn in the canyon. He elected to try a lower airstrip at Root Ranch. After a few more canyons the cloud level was just over the plane and dropping. We cleared a few ridges by less then 10 feet. Upon approaching the airstrip, there was one small ridge in front of it. We suddenly hit an airpocket and dropped sharply. The wheel clipped a tree top as we passed over. The pilot let out an F-bomb, and quickly gave it more throttle. As we were about to touch down, we noticed about 30 elk on ghe runway. The pilot just.said hold on, and touched down. The elk scattered as we narrowly missed them. It was 3 days before we could make it back up to the camp. We were able to stay at the ranch there and had hot showers and meals, while the guys at camp were out of food and eating fish heads in the snow. .
My sphincter still puckers up every time I think about it. Dang... that's a helluva story! Would definitely make someone think twice about getting in another plane. In regards to that "air pocket" that you hit... it was likely just a downdraft.
Fixed it. Shows how much I know about flying. I just remember the pilot after we landed apologized for cussing in front of us and explained that the bad air pocket nearly caused us to crash. It was also bad that none of us had a change of underwear. There is actually a web cam that shows the strip we landed at and the ridge we almost hit. It is the root ranch South webcam. We flew over the big ridge in the background clearing it by about 10 feet. We turned 180 degrees to line up with the airstrip and almost hit the smallest ridge as we were coming in. No sweat. The "air pocket" deal is just a peeve of some people. I normally just blow that term off, but I play in a band with a long-time Cessna Sovereign/Ultra captain (bizjet) and it's definitely a term that raises his eyebrow. I like to throw it around to get a rise out of him.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/8/2012 4:54:40 PM
Originally Posted By Gastard:
Multiple failures here . High altitude , high temperatures , over loaded . The high temps. w/out the extra weight can hurt you when taking off from airfields that are high in elevation ( anything higher than sea level effects your take off ) . This guy was eventually going to get hurt . It's a very good thing he didn't take someone else out w/ his mistake . He needs to go back to ground school before getting near another airplane . You experienced pilots can sound off NOW . I would think that the FAA would slap his pee-pee over this little "accident" so that he'd HAVE to do some remedial training and such. |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/8/2012 4:57:02 PM
Haven't flown in a few years. Put my PPL away in the gun safe years ago. Dunno if I could even operate an E6B any more. |
|
|
pcsutton
Member ....but not a 3rd member
Team Member
Joined: Sep 2004 TX, USA
Posts: 23725 Feedback: 100% (1) Link To This Post |
Posted: 8/8/2012 5:34:56 PM
Originally Posted By TZLVredmist: Lots of fun strips like in the OP's video around Idaho. Here is a small video of my friends flying into a private strip on the Salmon. I have landed here twice in the Caravan with him and the terrain sounder goes crazy. Plus the fact of the house being so close = Fun! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4SthgL8MFno Is that the Shepp Ranch? Looks smaller than MacKay Bar..... |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/8/2012 5:58:10 PM
Did GM build that thing?
He flies that plane like Obama runs the economy. |
|
|
|
TheOtherDave
Member
Team Member
Joined: Jan 2004 MI, USA
Posts: 25100 Feedback: 100% (5) Link To This Post |
Posted: 8/8/2012 5:58:46 PM
Originally Posted By MTUSA:
Looks like excess weight in the fuselage... Yep. Pilot error. Very lucky for those involved. |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/8/2012 6:28:58 PM
Originally Posted By pcsutton:
Originally Posted By TZLVredmist:
Lots of fun strips like in the OP's video around Idaho. Here is a small video of my friends flying into a private strip on the Salmon. I have landed here twice in the Caravan with him and the terrain sounder goes crazy. Plus the fact of the house being so close = Fun!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4SthgL8MFno Is that the Shepp Ranch? Looks smaller than MacKay Bar..... Not Mckay Bar, it is MUCH Smaller! Also not the Shepp Ranch. The Place in the video is just a home away from home for these folks. |
|
|
|
JellyBelly
Smile!
Team Member
Joined: Sep 2005 MI, USA
Posts: 15668 Feedback: 100% (10) Link To This Post |
Posted: 8/8/2012 6:29:44 PM
Originally Posted By runcible:
Originally Posted By MTUSA:
Looks like excess weight in the fuselage... Like a lot of women I've known. It happens when you have four men inside you at once, I suppose. |
|
|
MonkTx
I was there the day Horus fell.
Team Member
Joined: Mar 2003 TX, USA
Posts: 8206 Feedback: 100% (5) Link To This Post |
Posted: 8/8/2012 7:09:42 PM
[Last Edit: 8/8/2012 7:09:59 PM by MonkTx]
Anybody else notice he was fucking with that Ipad or whatever it was while the plane was going down?
|
|
ARCHIVED
