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Leeland111
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Posted: 8/7/2012 8:47:29 AM
[Last Edit: 8/8/2012 12:58:31 PM by Leeland111]
I am sitting at the hospital securing an inmate that was shot 9 times with 9mm. He was hit in the arms and torso and is still pretty mobile although in a lot of pain. I wonder if .45ACP, or even .40S&W, would have made a difference.

I hope he's not immune to 9mm since that is what I'm carry and CCW 95% of the time

ETA- the douche in question....



ETA: Winchester Ranger 127gr +p+ is what I believe the PD to carry in a SIG 226.
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Posted: 8/7/2012 8:50:15 AM
Ammo used?
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Posted: 8/7/2012 8:51:09 AM
[Last Edit: 8/7/2012 8:52:08 AM by WillAndrews]
Where was he hit?

eta (Torso wise) reading comprehension fail.
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Posted: 8/7/2012 8:52:54 AM
[Last Edit: 8/7/2012 8:53:26 AM by FrankSymptoms]
Where was he hit?

In general, pistols < long guns in terms of effectiveness. Lots of people here will tell you that it is shot placement that counts. They are right...

BUT lots will also tell you .45 > 9mm as it opens a larger wound channel.

There are lots of questions here:

Where was the victim hit by the bullets?

What kind of bullets were used (hollow point vs solid point)?

Did the bullets penetrate? (IF so they didn't distribute ALL of their energy to the victim. This is why everyone advocates hollowpoints.)

Did the bullets hit the central nervous system, i.e. the brain or spinal column? THAT usually causes a one-shot stop.

Lots of other questions will arise.

eta Was he fit or fat? Was he large or small statured?

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Posted: 8/7/2012 8:53:05 AM
Originally Posted By Eight:
Ammo used?


Not sure if the PD that was involved used Winchester +p or Speer Gold Dolt +p. I know it's 124 or 127 gr +p.
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Posted: 8/7/2012 8:54:50 AM
[Last Edit: 8/7/2012 9:11:14 AM by FreeFloater]
Originally Posted By FrankSymptoms:


BUT lots will also tell you .45 > 9mm as it opens a larger wound channel.



I believe this is a true statement. 45ACP is better than 9mm if all we look at is ballistic performance. Ignoring capacity, recoil, shot placement, and all the other things that happen in a real workd shooting...a bigger hole is almost always better than a smaller hole.
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Posted: 8/7/2012 8:55:35 AM
Where was he hit? Any in center mass? I often wonder the same thing how 9mm = .45 or .40 I carry a .45 for this reason but I guess the shooter would have still had 7 or 8 left depending on what they carry. I would have had to reload to get 9 hits assuming they all hit their target. I don't know whats better more ammo or bigger ammo. I look at as though I can work on my aim and shot placement but I cant make a smaller bullet hit harder or with more damage once it leaves the gun you have no control over it.
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Posted: 8/7/2012 8:58:59 AM

Originally Posted By Leeland111:
Originally Posted By Eight:
Ammo used?


Not sure if the PD that was involved used Winchester +p or Speer Gold Dolt +p. I know it's 124 or 127 gr +p.


Damn.

My question is, did those 9 shots cause him to immediately stop doing whatever he was doing that caused the poleece to open up on him in the first place?

Sorry about the mayonnaise, guys.
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Posted: 8/7/2012 9:00:41 AM
Originally Posted By Leeland111:
Originally Posted By Eight:
Ammo used?


Not sure if the PD that was involved used Winchester +p or Speer Gold Dolt +p. I know it's 124 or 127 gr +p.


I don't really care who did the shooting, or what bullet was used, all I want to know (and you may not have access to this info) is where he was hit specifically.

there is a statistic out there that says 80% of everyone shot with a handgun lives and 80% shot with a rifle dies....not sure how accurate that is but it sounds reasonable.
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Posted: 8/7/2012 9:07:47 AM
sounds like he was lucky or on bath salts..

a former co-worker of mine was shot in the abdomen by his ex-wife with a .22 LR derringer..he's a big fellow and a single round put him down,incapacitated him and he damn near died..

on the other hand, one of my uncles was shot by a .30-.06 in the upper chest while picking mushroooms..he walked about a mile and drove himself to the hospital..

ballistics is kinda random

hit location is more important than caliber
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Posted: 8/7/2012 9:08:54 AM
Originally Posted By Leeland111:
I am sitting at the hospital securing an inmate that was shot 9 times with 9mm. He was hit in the arms and torso and is still pretty mobile although in a lot of pain. I wonder if .45ACP, or even .40S&W, would have made a difference.

I hope he's not immune to 9mm since that is what I'm carry and CCW 95% of the time


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Leeland111
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Posted: 8/7/2012 9:09:25 AM
Originally Posted By Recusance:
Originally Posted By Leeland111:
Originally Posted By Eight:
Ammo used?


Not sure if the PD that was involved used Winchester +p or Speer Gold Dolt +p. I know it's 124 or 127 gr +p.


I don't really care who did the shooting, or what bullet was used, all I want to know (and you may not have access to this info) is where he was hit specifically.

there is a statistic out there that says 80% of everyone shot with a handgun lives and 80% shot with a rifle dies....not sure how accurate that is but it sounds reasonable.


He was hit in the arms and abdomen.
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Posted: 8/7/2012 9:09:34 AM
Statistics show that it takes 2+ hits with any centerfire handgun 9mm or larger to stop an attacker. The caliber has surprisingly little to do with how many rounds it takes, but shot placement is very important. It takes 1+ hit with a rifle. I guess Cooper was right about that.
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Posted: 8/7/2012 9:10:01 AM
[Last Edit: 8/7/2012 9:12:34 AM by Strongbow]
Note to self... read a few more posts....
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Posted: 8/7/2012 9:10:44 AM
Originally Posted By Furyataurus:
Originally Posted By Leeland111:
I am sitting at the hospital securing an inmate that was shot 9 times with 9mm. He was hit in the arms and torso and is still pretty mobile although in a lot of pain. I wonder if .45ACP, or even .40S&W, would have made a difference.

I hope he's not immune to 9mm since that is what I'm carry and CCW 95% of the time


GET PICS.



No can do, but I'll post a link to the shooting when I am off duty.
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Posted: 8/7/2012 9:13:55 AM
If he was hit in the arms and the bullets missed the bone and arteries that isn't a very serious hit. As far as the torso hits if he was hit through the lungs/heart it is hard to believe he is as you describe. If the torso hits were low through his mushy part instead of his thoracic cavity he can live but may not be the same. A level III trauma center can make a big difference in whether you live or die after being shot as well.

I have to think the rounds missed his heart/lungs or he would not be doing well.
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Posted: 8/7/2012 9:14:01 AM
No surprise at all. Pistols are not death-rays.

Read the Best Choices for Self Defense Ammo
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Posted: 8/7/2012 9:15:10 AM
We've gone over the differences between 9 &.45 but we really need to go over PEOPLE, some are just better at taking bullets than others, greater pain tolerance for instance. Shot placement is also important, hit nothing but muscle tissue, and the only thing that will stop him is himself, and blood loss.
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Posted: 8/7/2012 9:18:22 AM
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Posted: 8/7/2012 9:21:48 AM


Not sure what the point is of the image. In all seriousness, 9-40-45, all of those look pretty small if you are hoping to intersect with the CNS or heart. This is why guns have more than one round. Multiple rounds in vital areas is the bets bet.
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Posted: 8/7/2012 9:22:29 AM
Maybe he's just one tough dude.
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Posted: 8/7/2012 9:26:44 AM
Ok so he isn't dead but apparently his will to fight was quenched since he was in custody.

I don't own a 9mm, and I prefer death to be the result of me engaging an enemy, but I'd be quite satisfied with winning even if he lives. Beats the alternative.
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Posted: 8/7/2012 9:38:51 AM
So he got shot in the arms and gut shot. Well it stopped him. But had those rounds been CoM his odds would not be so good regardless of caliber.

Those I'd prefer 147gr 9mm. Has better penetration over the light and fast 124 +p.

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Posted: 8/7/2012 9:41:41 AM
Let's go out & shoot each other, you with 45 and me with a 9. I go first.

Any takers?
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Posted: 8/7/2012 9:45:49 AM
Originally Posted By morghealbot:
sounds like he was lucky or on bath salts..

a former co-worker of mine was shot in the abdomen by his ex-wife with a .22 LR derringer..he's a big fellow and a single round put him down,incapacitated him and he damn near died..

on the other hand, one of my uncles was shot by a .30-.06 in the upper chest while picking mushroooms..he walked about a mile and drove himself to the hospital..

ballistics is kinda random

hit location is more important than caliber


Exactly a hit by a .22 is more damaging then a miss by a .50 BMG.
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Posted: 8/7/2012 9:51:27 AM
If they shotted him nine times in the head you'd prob be reading Cosmo at the Morgue instead of at the hospital, regardless of caliber.
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Posted: 8/7/2012 9:54:01 AM
[Last Edit: 8/7/2012 9:54:44 AM by Chaingun]
Sounds like he lucked out

Just a reminder, Reagan almost died from a single .22. It's all about shot placement
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Posted: 8/7/2012 9:56:19 AM
Originally Posted By Leeland111:
I am sitting at the hospital securing an inmate that was shot 9 times with 9mm. He was hit in the arms and torso and is still pretty mobile although in a lot of pain. I wonder if .45ACP, or even .40S&W, would have made a difference.

I hope he's not immune to 9mm since that is what I'm carry and CCW 95% of the time


buddies sister is nurse at an ER and I qoute "You can't kill cock roaches"
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Posted: 8/7/2012 9:58:59 AM
HANDGUN WOUNDING FACTORS AND EFFECTIVENESS



Interesting read.There are many factors involved in the defensive use of the handgun-(shot placement(t-box/cns disruption/torso/extremities,penetration,expansion of projo,bad guy's physical/mental state,if the bad guy is under any type of "chemical" influence etc etc.The common denominator seems to be shot placement which would directly correlate with the shooter's skill level.You always revert to your training level.
BTW-I was always taught that you use your handgun to get to your rifle.
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Posted: 8/7/2012 10:39:44 AM
Originally Posted By Howie_Phelterbush:
Originally Posted By Leeland111:
I am sitting at the hospital securing an inmate that was shot 9 times with 9mm. He was hit in the arms and torso and is still pretty mobile although in a lot of pain. I wonder if .45ACP, or even .40S&W, would have made a difference.

I hope he's not immune to 9mm since that is what I'm carry and CCW 95% of the time


buddies sister is nurse at an ER and I qoute "You can't kill cock roaches"


So true. If this POS would have shot a good guy nine times, the GG would be dead.
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Posted: 8/7/2012 10:42:17 AM
Two words...


shot placement!
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Posted: 8/7/2012 10:45:17 AM
Originally Posted By DasRonin:
Two words...


shot placement!


Not 100%.

Though you want to better your odds as much as possible so Head > Arm, etc.
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Posted: 8/7/2012 10:45:45 AM
Originally Posted By Howie_Phelterbush:
Originally Posted By Leeland111:
I am sitting at the hospital securing an inmate that was shot 9 times with 9mm. He was hit in the arms and torso and is still pretty mobile although in a lot of pain. I wonder if .45ACP, or even .40S&W, would have made a difference.

I hope he's not immune to 9mm since that is what I'm carry and CCW 95% of the time


buddies sister is nurse at an ER and I qoute "You can't kill cock roaches"


lol
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Posted: 8/7/2012 10:47:13 AM
Originally Posted By Leeland111:
I am sitting at the hospital securing an inmate that was shot 9 times with 9mm. He was hit in the arms and torso and is still pretty mobile although in a lot of pain. I wonder if .45ACP, or even .40S&W, would have made a difference.

I hope he's not immune to 9mm since that is what I'm carry and CCW 95% of the time


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Posted: 8/7/2012 10:50:40 AM
Shot placement > caliber.
Originally Posted By Jeremy Clarkson:

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Posted: 8/7/2012 10:53:09 AM
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John_Wayne777
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Posted: 8/7/2012 10:53:53 AM
Originally Posted By Leeland111:
I am sitting at the hospital securing an inmate that was shot 9 times with 9mm. He was hit in the arms and torso and is still pretty mobile although in a lot of pain. I wonder if .45ACP, or even .40S&W, would have made a difference.


A shot in the big toe with a .45 ACP is not really any more lethal than a shot in the big toe with a 9mm.


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Posted: 8/7/2012 11:02:51 AM
Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:
Originally Posted By Leeland111:
I am sitting at the hospital securing an inmate that was shot 9 times with 9mm. He was hit in the arms and torso and is still pretty mobile although in a lot of pain. I wonder if .45ACP, or even .40S&W, would have made a difference.


A shot in the big toe with a .45 ACP is not really any more lethal than a shot in the big toe with a 9mm.




He was hit in the abdomen, legs, buttocks and both arms....as best I can tell.
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Posted: 8/7/2012 11:10:43 AM
[Last Edit: 8/7/2012 11:12:16 AM by John_Wayne777]
Originally Posted By Leeland111:
He was hit in the abdomen, legs, buttocks and both arms....as best I can tell.


Translation: He was hit in non-vital structures with a 9mm.

Point being a hit to non-vital structures is just that: A hit to non-vital structures. A non-vital hit with a .45 ACP is no better than a non-vital hit with a 9mm. It's still a non-vital hit.

There's a wealth of real world evidence out there which demonstrates pretty conclusively that with handgun calibers you have to put the bullet in something that counts for it to do much good from a pure physiological perspective. A slightly bigger bullet hole in something that doesn't matter is irrelevant. A slightly bigger bullet hole in something that does matter is irrelevant, too. Put a bullet that penetrates deep enough to hit something important in a location where it will hit something important, and it's highly likely to be effective regardless of an extra .10 inches of bullet diameter. Fail to meet that formula and it's not as likely to be effective regardless of an extra .10 inches of bullet diameter.
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Posted: 8/7/2012 11:17:29 AM
Sounds like it was more his lucky day that no vital organs were hit rather than the suggested ineffectiveness of the 9mm round.
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Posted: 8/7/2012 11:25:49 AM
The .45; big, slow, crushing with the blunt force trauma of a sledge hammer is one of the calibers that is least compatible with the human system.

A retired Border Patrol agent who was old school and 'rode the river' back when they were allowed to do their jobs without worrying about Mexico's influence having them thrown in the pen said the .45 loaded with a 200gr. lead semi wadcutter was the most terminal round he knew of and with fewest return customers.
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Posted: 8/7/2012 11:26:26 AM

Originally Posted By Leeland111:
Originally Posted By Recusance:
Originally Posted By Leeland111:
Originally Posted By Eight:
Ammo used?


Not sure if the PD that was involved used Winchester +p or Speer Gold Dolt +p. I know it's 124 or 127 gr +p.


I don't really care who did the shooting, or what bullet was used, all I want to know (and you may not have access to this info) is where he was hit specifically.

there is a statistic out there that says 80% of everyone shot with a handgun lives and 80% shot with a rifle dies....not sure how accurate that is but it sounds reasonable.


He was hit in the arms and abdomen.

If he got hit THROUGH his arms and into his abdomen, then bullets could have lost quite a bit of energy passing through the arms first.

I see no reason to believe that this one data point means anything on the overall data points.

.45 is marginally better than 9 MM overall, but may not be if one of the good things about 9 MM makes a personal choice to go a different way.
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Posted: 8/7/2012 11:31:38 AM
Just as a FYI , there was a shooting in IL quite recently where a police officer shot a bad guy 14 times with 45acp and it did not put him down. It took 3 rounds to the head to do that.


http://www.policemag.com/Channel/Patrol/Articles/2012/02/Shots-Fired-Skokie-Illinois-08-25-2008.aspx
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Posted: 8/7/2012 11:41:02 AM
[Last Edit: 8/7/2012 11:45:53 AM by haydendavid380]
There was a OIS in Pennsylvania years back where the BG got his with 20 something rounds of .40 and a hand full of hits from TAP 5.56.

The guy had to be fought into handcuffs.

There's no such round that will work in every situation, 100% of the time.

ETA- I've tore a .72" hole through the chest cavity of a buck 2 or 3 years ago that I tracked for just under 2 miles. There was a baseball piece of lung on the ground where he was shot.


If you're trying to stop something, I'd suggest going nuts to noggin, pulling the trigger as many times as you can along the way.

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Posted: 8/7/2012 11:51:22 AM
I know people, who have never been in a shooting, that swear the .40 is the best self-defense caliber on the market today. There is a video floating around about a hotel robbery where the manager hides behind a fat chick to draw his .40, then shoots the bad guy 3 times. Bad guy still managed to run a couple blocks before he fell down and the police found him.

Not so sure if it's about caliber or shot placement. Personally, I would go with shot placement...
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Posted: 8/7/2012 11:58:12 AM
I get into this arguement all the time with a buddy. He always brings up "hydrostatic shock." He claims "hydrostatic shock" doesnt show up until a round produces at least 500 ft/lbs of energy and the 9mm just doesnt produce that much. I keep telling him killing somebody by shooting them in a non vital location and hoping the shock wave will kill them dead is ridiculous and NO handgun bullet is a "stop right now" bullet like he'd like to believe unless it's put in his brain.
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Posted: 8/7/2012 12:04:21 PM
Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:
Originally Posted By Leeland111:
He was hit in the abdomen, legs, buttocks and both arms....as best I can tell.


Translation: He was hit in non-vital structures with a 9mm.

Point being a hit to non-vital structures is just that: A hit to non-vital structures. A non-vital hit with a .45 ACP is no better than a non-vital hit with a 9mm. It's still a non-vital hit.

There's a wealth of real world evidence out there which demonstrates pretty conclusively that with handgun calibers you have to put the bullet in something that counts for it to do much good from a pure physiological perspective. A slightly bigger bullet hole in something that doesn't matter is irrelevant. A slightly bigger bullet hole in something that does matter is irrelevant, too. Put a bullet that penetrates deep enough to hit something important in a location where it will hit something important, and it's highly likely to be effective regardless of an extra .10 inches of bullet diameter. Fail to meet that formula and it's not as likely to be effective regardless of an extra .10 inches of bullet diameter.


I agree with you about 99%. However, a bigger hole will cause blood loss faster and thus can increase incapacitation time. Also a 45 is not just .10 larger; that's the increases of diameter, but the area of a circle (pi r ^2) is a more accurate measurement of size difference.
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Posted: 8/7/2012 12:08:49 PM
Originally Posted By chewbacca:
I agree with you about 99%. However, a bigger hole will cause blood loss faster and thus can increase incapacitation time. Also a 45 is not just .10 larger; that's the increases of diameter, but the area of a circle (pi r ^2) is a more accurate measurement of size difference.


Exactly how much more blood loss happens when a given artery is perforated by a .45 ACP than when the same structure is perforated by a 9mm?
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Posted: 8/7/2012 12:10:13 PM
Maybe a good comparison would be to shoot a drum full of water with a 9mm and another with a .45 and see which one drains faster.
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Posted: 8/7/2012 12:10:32 PM
[Last Edit: 8/7/2012 12:10:55 PM by VBC]
Again, with the double tap.
phatmax
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Posted: 8/7/2012 12:17:51 PM
Originally Posted By VBC:
Maybe a good comparison would be to shoot a drum full of water with a 9mm and another with a .45 and see which one drains faster.


A drum would be like a large blood vessel. A shot to the body that does not contain a large vein or artery, will bleed a lot differently. Also, shock and chemical reactions in the body can restrict blood flow from a wound in different ways. At least temporarily.

There is NO analagous item that can be shot to compare bleed rates from a human body, except a human body. And even then, size, general health, and a host of other factors will influence bleed rates.

Combat medical reports are probably the best information to be had, if you can locate them. Even then, you deal with erratic wound channels and a million other factors.
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