9mm vs .45ACP? With a real world incident. - Page 2

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - 9mm vs .45ACP? With a real world incident. (Page 2 of 5)

Posted: 8/7/2012 8:18:46 AM EDT

[#1]

Before Hydrostatic shock was a term and could be measured, the .45, a big slug of heavy lead plowing through a body, tumbling, yawing and breaking whatever bones in the path was a very effective show stopper. A 9mm, especially a round nose solid, has more of a teflonic characteristic when not hitting bone.

Posted: 8/7/2012 8:18:59 AM EDT

[#2]

Obviously, we will never know the answer. Just wonder if this would have turned out differently had it been a .357 SIG, .40 or .45.

FWIW to the 9mm carriers like me, he's still pretty messed up.

Posted: 8/7/2012 8:21:11 AM EDT

[#3]

Quoted:
Maybe a good comparison would be to shoot a drum full of water with a 9mm and another with a .45 and see which one drains faster.

You could theoretically take a container and punch two holes in it and compare the behavior of the draining to come up with a measure of the volume drained in a given period of time and even come up with a pressure for the drainage, and from that get a reading on the efficiency of a .355 hole vs. a .45 hole.

...but it would be difficult to make a categorical statement about the same effect in living tissue that has a rather unique fluid under pressure in a system that has evolved over the years to deal with trauma, or the many variations in living tissue that result in different outcomes. (Like the difference between shooting a hemophiliac and someone with a very healthy clotting mechanism, etc) There may be a difference, but in living tissue that difference is so small that it is going to escape any useful means of quantifying it and putting a definitive statement of effectiveness on it. It would be difficult to say that .45 ACP is X% more effective at causing blood loss than a 9mm round. After thousands of real world shootings have been investigated thoroughly, no evidence emerges of the .45 ACP showing any significant measurable advantage in the ability to cause blood loss over the 9mm.

In living tissue the differences between service calibers is marginal at best. So we're arguing a largely theoretical advantage, here.

Meanwhile there are other factors that are not theoretical...like capacity, training, etc. Factors which have shown to have more import in producing a positive outcome for the good guys than an extra .10 inch of bullet diameter and yet get nowhere near the level of focus that the bullet diameter debate engenders.

Posted: 8/7/2012 8:23:42 AM EDT

[#4]

with out medical care, would he have died ?

Posted: 8/7/2012 8:28:06 AM EDT

[#5]

Quoted:
Obviously, we will never know the answer.

No, we really do know the answer because, as I mentioned earlier, lots of people have been shot with lots of different handgun calibers and one truth emerges supreme from all that data:

If you aren't hitting shit that matters, caliber (within certain sensible parameters) is irrelevant.
If you are hitting shit that matters, caliber (within certain sensible parameters) is irrelevant.

The exact same points of entry on the exact same bad guy with a .357 sig would likely have resulted in the exact same injuries. Testing of the .357 sig shows it performs like a good 9mm load in most circumstances. If the bad guy was shot with a good 9mm load magically switching it to a .357 sig would have produced the same results.

With a .40 or a .45 if we're talking about hitting major bone structures then there's a possibility that there may have been some additional damage...but it's pretty safe to say that if we magically changed the bullets during the shooting that the damage would have been pretty much the same overall, and the effectiveness (in terms of making the bad guy knock it off, already) would have been the same, too. An extra 150 FPS of velocity or .10 inch of bullet diameter is insufficient to cause a tangible difference in outcome in the circumstances you cited.

That is, at least, what the thousands of real gunshot wounds in real people that have been thoroughly studied tell us.

Posted: 8/7/2012 8:28:49 AM EDT

[#6]

Arms and abdomen are not fatal right away. There is a very similar local shooting to me about 10 years ago .police scored 9 hits with .40 caliber Berretta pistols and blamed the gun but got no solid center mass hits.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile

Posted: 8/7/2012 8:37:32 AM EDT

[#7]

I would like to make up a fake shooting / gun shop controversy and get everyone all riled up and bickering about it.

OK, let me try:

"A 44 magnum is too overstabilized to tumble in a wound, so a 357 magnum causes greater wounding effect."

Tell that to everyone you meet with great knowing gravity and let's this fake controversy kicked into high gear ASAP.

See, because the 44 mag is an excellent cartridge with a lot of fans, especially handun hunters, so the negative comparison to 357 mag will get them all riled up.

But the comment is technical sounding and counter-intuitive, so all the gun shop gurus will love to say it.

If you can come up with a better fake controversy I'll certainly do my part to spread it around.

Posted: 8/7/2012 8:42:58 AM EDT

[#8]

Since pistol rounds don't generate nearly enough velocity to do rifle type damage,heavy and slow seems to be the answer.Only my opinion though.

Posted: 8/7/2012 8:43:39 AM EDT

[#9]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I agree with you about 99%. However, a bigger hole will cause blood loss faster and thus can increase incapacitation time. Also a 45 is not just .10 larger; that's the increases of diameter, but the area of a circle (pi r ^2) is a more accurate measurement of size difference.

Exactly how much more blood loss happens when a given artery is perforated by a .45 ACP than when the same structure is perforated by a 9mm?

Don't know. But from the FBI study here

"Given desirable and reliable penetration, the only way to increase bullet effectiveness is to increase the severity of the wound by increasing the size of the hole made by the bullet. Any bullet which will not penetrate through vital organs from less than optimal angles is not acceptable. Of those that will penetrate, the edge is always with the bigger bullet."

Also in the article above, it discusses how a near miss could be a hit when using a larger bullet; even if the percentage of that scenario is low, it is still there nonetheless. Obviously that is a "no shit" point, but the author of the paper felt it was important enough to repeat the point multiple times.

The paper is discussing the effects of bullets when hitting the body, not calibers, round capacity or anything like that; so one could easily argue 9mm over 45 because of capacity and potential for more rounds on target.

My points were strictly pointing out that technically, penetration being equal, a bigger round does more damage. Again, no shit.

Posted: 8/7/2012 8:44:58 AM EDT

[#10]

Quoted:
I would like to make up a fake shooting / gun shop controversy and get everyone all riled up and bickering about it.

OK, let me try:

"A 44 magnum is too overstabilized to tumble in a wound, so a 357 magnum causes greater wounding effect."

Tell that to everyone you meet with great knowing gravity and let's this fake controversy kicked into high gear ASAP.

See, because the 44 mag is an excellent cartridge with a lot of fans, especially handun hunters, so the negative comparison to 357 mag will get them all riled up.

But the comment is technical sounding and counter-intuitive, so all the gun shop gurus will love to say it.

If you can come up with a better fake controversy I'll certainly do my part to spread it around.

Meh,

I can do you one better.

A .22lr wound to the gut is more dangerous than a 12ga that takes off an arm. You can put a tourniquet around the stump and / or cauterize the stump to stop the bleeding, but a .22lr will tumble around and destroy everything in your stomach and there is nothing you can do about it.

Posted: 8/7/2012 8:46:09 AM EDT

[#11]

Quoted:
Arms and abdomen are not fatal right away. There is a very similar local shooting to me about 10 years ago .police scored 9 hits with .40 caliber Berretta pistols and blamed the gun but got no solid center mass hits.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile

That's why I always suggest shooting for the Temporal Lobe of the human brain - associated with perception and recognition of auditory stimuli, memory, and speech.

But you have to do a double tap because the lobe is located on both sides of the brain

ideally with a poisoned needle no larger than a human hair.

actually the projectile could be a single hydrogen nucleus if the correct molecule of the brain is targeted

They teach that to the guys in the delta elite seal commando ranger CIA battallion

Posted: 8/7/2012 8:48:12 AM EDT

[#12]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I would like to make up a fake shooting / gun shop controversy and get everyone all riled up and bickering about it.

OK, let me try:

"A 44 magnum is too overstabilized to tumble in a wound, so a 357 magnum causes greater wounding effect."

Tell that to everyone you meet with great knowing gravity and let's this fake controversy kicked into high gear ASAP.

See, because the 44 mag is an excellent cartridge with a lot of fans, especially handun hunters, so the negative comparison to 357 mag will get them all riled up.

But the comment is technical sounding and counter-intuitive, so all the gun shop gurus will love to say it.

If you can come up with a better fake controversy I'll certainly do my part to spread it around.

Meh,

I can do you one better.

A .22lr wound to the gut is more dangerous than a 12ga that takes off an arm. You can put a tourniquet around the stump and / or cauterize the stump to stop the bleeding, but a .22lr will tumble around and destroy everything in your stomach and there is nothing you can do about it.

Not bad, but you need to say that a 12 ga round is shitty - has little or no wounding effect at all.

It's not going to work unless you get people riled up to defend their pet round.

Posted: 8/7/2012 8:49:53 AM EDT

[#13]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I would like to make up a fake shooting / gun shop controversy and get everyone all riled up and bickering about it.

OK, let me try:

"A 44 magnum is too overstabilized to tumble in a wound, so a 357 magnum causes greater wounding effect."

Tell that to everyone you meet with great knowing gravity and let's this fake controversy kicked into high gear ASAP.

See, because the 44 mag is an excellent cartridge with a lot of fans, especially handun hunters, so the negative comparison to 357 mag will get them all riled up.

But the comment is technical sounding and counter-intuitive, so all the gun shop gurus will love to say it.

If you can come up with a better fake controversy I'll certainly do my part to spread it around.

Meh,

I can do you one better.

A .22lr wound to the gut is more dangerous than a 12ga BIRDSHOT / Dragon's Breath Round that takes off an arm. You can put a tourniquet around the stump and / or cauterize the stump to stop the bleeding, but a .22lr will tumble around and destroy everything in your stomach and there is nothing you can do about it.

Not bad, but you need to say that a 12 ga round is shitty - has little or no wounding effect at all.

It's not going to work unless you get people riled up to defend their pet round.

Edited and fixed.

Posted: 8/7/2012 8:51:03 AM EDT

[#14]

Quoted:
Obviously, we will never know the answer. Just wonder if this would have turned out differently had it been a .357 SIG, .40 or .45.

FWIW to the 9mm carriers like me, he's still pretty messed up.

Spend some quality time reading this and you'll see that everything JW77 is saying is based in fact. No modern JHP is better then the other, .10" in expansion is not a gonna dramticaly change anything. If you hit an artery with a 22lr you'll bleed out just like a 45, 40, 9 and 357sig. A hole in a vital is a hole in a vital. A hole in a non vital is jut that.

Look at the charts, the penetration depths is not all that different light and fast do not penetrate as deep as heavier bullets, +p or +p+ or not. Temporary wound channels from trauma are all basically the same.

What counts is the shooters ability to put multiple rounds on target. If you can do it with 45 then great, if you are better with 9mm then great. Putting rounds in vitals is what counts, pick a modern JHP from the list and no matter where you hit a bad guy the effect will be similar. A vital hit will be a hit in the vitals, a non vitals hit is just that, no matter what handgun round you are using.

Posted: 8/7/2012 8:54:15 AM EDT

[#15]

Quoted:
So he got shot in the arms and gut shot. Well it stopped him. But had those rounds been CoM his odds would not be so good regardless of caliber.

Those I'd prefer 147gr 9mm. Has better penetration over the light and fast 124 +p.

i CAN X2 THIS. We use Winchester Ranger STX 147 gr 9mm JHP. An inmate was shot by an officer carrying a duty Colt AR15 9mm chambered in the round i described. The entry wound was small but the exit wound was huge. It fooked him up :). He was in the hospital for a long time and the nurses had to keep packing the wound. This is why i highly recommend the 147 gr.

Posted: 8/7/2012 8:56:30 AM EDT

[#16]

FWIW, the blood loss factor of a larger diameter bullet is not all that relevant to a gunfight that takes place in seconds. It takes minutes to die of blood loss in most cases.

Posted: 8/7/2012 8:57:13 AM EDT

[#17]

Shot placement always trumps caliber.

Posted: 8/7/2012 8:57:53 AM EDT

[#18]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I would like to make up a fake shooting / gun shop controversy and get everyone all riled up and bickering about it.

OK, let me try:

"A 44 magnum is too overstabilized to tumble in a wound, so a 357 magnum causes greater wounding effect."

Tell that to everyone you meet with great knowing gravity and let's this fake controversy kicked into high gear ASAP.

See, because the 44 mag is an excellent cartridge with a lot of fans, especially handun hunters, so the negative comparison to 357 mag will get them all riled up.

But the comment is technical sounding and counter-intuitive, so all the gun shop gurus will love to say it.

If you can come up with a better fake controversy I'll certainly do my part to spread it around.

Meh,

I can do you one better.

A .22lr wound to the gut is more dangerous than a 12ga BIRDSHOT / Dragon's Breath Round that takes off an arm. You can put a tourniquet around the stump and / or cauterize the stump to stop the bleeding, but a .22lr will tumble around and destroy everything in your stomach and there is nothing you can do about it.

Not bad, but you need to say that a 12 ga round is shitty - has little or no wounding effect at all.

It's not going to work unless you get people riled up to defend their pet round.

Edited and fixed.

It would cauterize a wound.

Posted: 8/7/2012 8:58:07 AM EDT

[#19]

Quoted:

Quoted:
So he got shot in the arms and gut shot. Well it stopped him. But had those rounds been CoM his odds would not be so good regardless of caliber.

Those I'd prefer 147gr 9mm. Has better penetration over the light and fast 124 +p.

i CAN X2 THIS. We use Winchester Ranger STX 147 gr 9mm JHP. An inmate was shot by an officer carrying a duty Colt AR15 9mm chambered in the round i described. The entry wound was small but the exit wound was huge. It fooked him up :). He was in the hospital for a long time and the nurses had to keep packing the wound. This is why i highly recommend the 147 gr.

A little cheating, 14-16 inch barrel versus a 4.5 inch barrel will make a big difference in velocity.

Posted: 8/7/2012 8:58:18 AM EDT

[#20]

I think pretty much anyone who has hunted will tell you that you can just never tell what an animal will do when shot.
There are no absolutes when bullets meet flesh.

I have shot a Moose that plopped right over with out taking a step,and a cow Elk just stood there wondering where that loud noise came from, both were hit in the same spot,about the same distance,with the same rifle using ammo from the same box.

I would expect the same being true of humans,as our physical make up isn't that much different

Posted: 8/7/2012 9:02:39 AM EDT

[#21]

Quoted:
FWIW, the blood loss factor of a larger diameter bullet is not all that relevant to a gunfight that takes place in seconds. It takes minutes to die of blood loss in most cases.

Had a guy at work with a AV fistula. A pin sized hole opened up... Like murder scene! Blood everywhere but he made it to the OR and got sewed up. A bigger hole and he would have bleed more and faster but he still would have survived.

Posted: 8/7/2012 9:06:12 AM EDT

[#22]

Quoted:
The .45; big, slow, crushing with the blunt force trauma of a sledge hammer is one of the calibers that is least compatible with the human system.

A retired Border Patrol agent who was old school and 'rode the river' back when they were allowed to do their jobs without worrying about Mexico's influence having them thrown in the pen said the .45 loaded with a 200gr. lead semi wadcutter was the most terminal round he knew of and with fewest return customers.

Yeah but did he ever shoot jello with it?

Posted: 8/7/2012 9:09:55 AM EDT

[#23]

Quoted:

Quoted:
So he got shot in the arms and gut shot. Well it stopped him. But had those rounds been CoM his odds would not be so good regardless of caliber.

Those I'd prefer 147gr 9mm. Has better penetration over the light and fast 124 +p.

i CAN X2 THIS. We use Winchester Ranger STX 147 gr 9mm JHP. An inmate was shot by an officer carrying a duty Colt AR15 9mm chambered in the round i described. The entry wound was small but the exit wound was huge. It fooked him up :). He was in the hospital for a long time and the nurses had to keep packing the wound. This is why i highly recommend the 147 gr.

A little cheating, 14-16 inch barrel versus a 4.5 inch barrel will make a big difference in velocity.

Correct me if I'm wrong but handgun ammo is designed with powder designed to burn fast and typically within the length of the barrel. Rifle ammo on the other hand has slower burning powder to use the longer length of the barrel.

I saw an episode of American Guns where the cut the barrel of a Tommy gun down. The bet was the longer barrel would have more velocity. Well the shorter barrel was actually 50fps faster.

Now that isn't a huge change in velocity but it does demonstrate that difference.

If I'm wrong someone post up the fact so I can check it out.

Posted: 8/7/2012 9:14:33 AM EDT

[#24]

Quoted:

Quoted:
So he got shot in the arms and gut shot. Well it stopped him. But had those rounds been CoM his odds would not be so good regardless of caliber.

Those I'd prefer 147gr 9mm. Has better penetration over the light and fast 124 +p.

i CAN X2 THIS. We use Winchester Ranger STX 147 gr 9mm JHP. An inmate was shot by an officer carrying a duty Colt AR15 9mm chambered in the round i described. The entry wound was small but the exit wound was huge. It fooked him up :). He was in the hospital for a long time and the nurses had to keep packing the wound. This is why i highly recommend the 147 gr.

A little cheating, 14-16 inch barrel versus a 4.5 inch barrel will make a big difference in velocity.

Correct me if I'm wrong but handgun ammo is designed with powder designed to burn fast and typically within the length of the barrel. Rifle ammo on the other hand has slower burning powder to use the longer length of the barrel.

I saw an episode of American Guns where the cut the barrel of a Tommy gun down. The bet was the longer barrel would have more velocity. Well the shorter barrel was actually 50fps faster.

Now that isn't a huge change in velocity but it does demonstrate that difference.

If I'm wrong someone post up the fact so I can check it out.

I am not 100% sure, but I think +P was designed as submachinegun ammo, and is suited to perform best in such weapons. Time to research.

Posted: 8/7/2012 9:16:09 AM EDT

[#25]

Quoted:

Quoted:
So he got shot in the arms and gut shot. Well it stopped him. But had those rounds been CoM his odds would not be so good regardless of caliber.

Those I'd prefer 147gr 9mm. Has better penetration over the light and fast 124 +p.

i CAN X2 THIS. We use Winchester Ranger STX 147 gr 9mm JHP. An inmate was shot by an officer carrying a duty Colt AR15 9mm chambered in the round i described. The entry wound was small but the exit wound was huge. It fooked him up :). He was in the hospital for a long time and the nurses had to keep packing the wound. This is why i highly recommend the 147 gr.

At least out of a LONGER barrel. I bet the extra barrel length didnt hurt any.

Posted: 8/7/2012 9:19:13 AM EDT

[#26]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Obviously, we will never know the answer. Just wonder if this would have turned out differently had it been a .357 SIG, .40 or .45.

FWIW to the 9mm carriers like me, he's still pretty messed up.

Spend some quality time reading this and you'll see that everything JW77 is saying is based in fact. No modern JHP is better then the other, .10" in expansion is not a gonna dramticaly change anything. If you hit an artery with a 22lr you'll bleed out just like a 45, 40, 9 and 357sig. A hole in a vital is a hole in a vital. A hole in a non vital is jut that.

Look at the charts, the penetration depths is not all that different light and fast do not penetrate as deep as heavier bullets, +p or +p+ or not. Temporary wound channels from trauma are all basically the same.

What counts is the shooters ability to put multiple rounds on target. If you can do it with 45 then great, if you are better with 9mm then great. Putting rounds in vitals is what counts, pick a modern JHP from the list and no matter where you hit a bad guy the effect will be similar. A vital hit will be a hit in the vitals, a non vitals hit is just that, no matter what handgun round you are using.

I don't question JW777. Really, I'm fascinated by the fact that this douchebag was shot 9 times and lived. Regardless of caliber, that's fucking amazing.

Now, being an ARFCOM member for a little while now, I had to ask myself and you guys, had it been .45's and not 9's, would I be sitting here today in the hospital with this piece of shit or inside the jail securing some other pieces of shit? And just read about the PD killing a suspect last month?

Posted: 8/7/2012 9:19:22 AM EDT

[#27]

Quoted:
I am not 100% sure, but I think +P was designed as submachinegun ammo, and is suited to perform best in such weapons. Time to research.

+P is a pressure specification.

Pressures can vary. SAAMI specs for 9mm in America, for instance, are designed to not blow up 100 year old Lugers. Meanwhile in Europe and in NATO their 9mm spec is loaded to a pressure more equivalent to what we think of as +P.

Posted: 8/7/2012 9:20:57 AM EDT

[#28]

Quoted:
I'm fascinated by the fact that this douchebag was shot 9 times and lived.

Shithead Survival Syndrome: Noun. Descriptor of phenomenon where a worthless piece of human garbage survives something that would have killed a decent person because the universe seems to delight in fucking the human race up the ass at every opportunity.

Posted: 8/7/2012 9:23:55 AM EDT

[#29]

If he was hit by FMJ, I bet he'd be in a world more hurt with 45 FMJ.

If he was hit by quality hollow points, I doubt it would have made much difference.

Posted: 8/7/2012 9:25:44 AM EDT

[#30]

my opinion, and its stricktly my opinion

i derived this from these discussions over the years.....

if shot placement is key, which i agree with
then i want to have as many opportunities to put those shots where they need to be, thus..
i have come to settle on a 9mm due to that logic

Posted: 8/7/2012 9:27:07 AM EDT

[#31]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I am not 100% sure, but I think +P was designed as submachinegun ammo, and is suited to perform best in such weapons. Time to research.

+P is a pressure specification.

Pressures can vary. SAAMI specs for 9mm in America, for instance, are designed to not blow up 100 year old Lugers. Meanwhile in Europe and in NATO their 9mm spec is loaded to a pressure more equivalent to what we think of as +P.

Given the higher pressure, would that impart a couple hundred FPS more out of a 16" barrel versus a 4 / 4.5 inch? I think it was 9mm NATO I was thinking of. Shit you should not shoot in old (like Luger) 9x19mm guns.

Posted: 8/7/2012 9:27:33 AM EDT

[#32]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I agree with you about 99%. However, a bigger hole will cause blood loss faster and thus can increase incapacitation time. Also a 45 is not just .10 larger; that's the increases of diameter, but the area of a circle (pi r ^2) is a more accurate measurement of size difference.

Exactly how much more blood loss happens when a given artery is perforated by a .45 ACP than when the same structure is perforated by a 9mm?

its the capilaries that add up man!

Posted: 8/7/2012 9:28:33 AM EDT

[#33]

Quoted:
Given the higher pressure, would that impart a couple hundred FPS more out of a 16" barrel versus a 4 / 4.5 inch? I think it was 9mm NATO I was thinking of. Shit you should not shoot in old (like Luger) 9x19mm guns.

A longer barrel should result in an increase in velocity. 16" vs. 4 inches should result in a significant gain. I don't have any numbers handy, though.

Posted: 8/7/2012 9:30:23 AM EDT

[#34]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I'm fascinated by the fact that this douchebag was shot 9 times and lived.

Shithead Survival Syndrome: Noun. Descriptor of phenomenon where a worthless piece of human garbage survives something that would have killed a decent person because the universe seems to delight in fucking the human race up the ass at every opportunity.

Pretty much. Plenty of dudes limping around the jail from being shot.

Posted: 8/7/2012 9:34:30 AM EDT

[#35]

Quoted:

Quoted:
So he got shot in the arms and gut shot. Well it stopped him. But had those rounds been CoM his odds would not be so good regardless of caliber.

Those I'd prefer 147gr 9mm. Has better penetration over the light and fast 124 +p.

i CAN X2 THIS. We use Winchester Ranger STX 147 gr 9mm JHP. An inmate was shot by an officer carrying a duty Colt AR15 9mm chambered in the round i described. The entry wound was small but the exit wound was huge. It fooked him up :). He was in the hospital for a long time and the nurses had to keep packing the wound. This is why i highly recommend the 147 gr.

At least out of a LONGER barrel. I bet the extra barrel length didnt hurt any.

Oh not at all, its a 16 inch chrome line barrel. Feet per second on this rifle is over 1300 fps. So its definitely getting more velocity.

Posted: 8/7/2012 9:37:22 AM EDT

[#36]

Last year I had to babysit an inmate in the hospital who was shot multiple times by .357 Sig. He was shot in the upper arm, abdomen, torso, and mouth. He survived despite a lengthy stay in the ICU.

Posted: 8/7/2012 9:47:10 AM EDT

[#37]

Blood loss and hemorrhage has little importance in stopping a gunfight. It's small consolation that a threat stumbles into an ER and bled out after he was able to soak up what I put in him and shot me.

Posted: 8/7/2012 9:48:50 AM EDT

[#38]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Maybe a good comparison would be to shoot a drum full of water with a 9mm and another with a .45 and see which one drains faster.

A drum would be like a large blood vessel. A shot to the body that does not contain a large vein or artery, will bleed a lot differently. Also, shock and chemical reactions in the body can restrict blood flow from a wound in different ways. At least temporarily.

There is NO analagous item that can be shot to compare bleed rates from a human body, except a human body. And even then, size, general health, and a host of other factors will influence bleed rates.

Combat medical reports are probably the best information to be had, if you can locate them. Even then, you deal with erratic wound channels and a million other factors.

I wasn't suggesting a test analogous to human tissue.

Just one that merely shows how much faster water will flow out of a .45 hole vs. a 9mm. Flow rate increases exponentially with the diameter increase of an orifice. Flow vel = square root(2 g h)

A severed artery drains through the bullet hole in the body. A larger hole = faster draining.

Posted: 8/7/2012 9:50:42 AM EDT

[#39]

9mm out of a rifle will have a greater velocity than 9mm out of a pistol. A 10" 9mm may have a higher velocity than a 16" 9mm though. The variations in velocity (like used with the American Guns Tommy gun episode) are the result of a powder charge attaining full burn at it's optimal length. After that...you can actually lose velocity due to friction. Example... a .22LR rifle achieves optimal velocity at around 12-14". That's why my 16" CZ452 will post higher velocities than my buddies 20" CZ452. This varies by caliber and charge size...

Posted: 8/7/2012 9:53:32 AM EDT

[#40]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I am sitting at the hospital securing an inmate that was shot 9 times with 9mm. He was hit in the arms and torso and is still pretty mobile although in a lot of pain. I wonder if .45ACP, or even .40S&W, would have made a difference.

I hope he's not immune to 9mm since that is what I'm carry and CCW 95% of the time

Miami Shootout
Granted Ammo has changed a great deal since then...

The Miami Shootout is always brought up when and as an example for why 9mm is a poor performer...but no handgun round is particularly good at penetrating vehicles...and the FBI made a serious error when going up against long guns (mini-14 and a shotgun) with sidearms. Also note that only 4 of the FBI agents had 9mm S&W's, while the others had .357's and .38's. Moral of the story...don't take a handgun to a long gun fight. The FBI should have pressed for the issuing of rifle caliber long guns much earlier instead of pushing for the 10mm and then .40 cal IMHO.

Posted: 8/7/2012 9:53:51 AM EDT

[#41]

Look, it's as simple as this:
One flies fast, one flies slow. Both kill. Both of them have been killing things for about a hundred years. Figure out which you like better, or get both. If the slightly more hefty recoil of .45ACP bothers you or a new shooter, then go with 9mm. Whatever you do, don't ever buy anything in .40 S&W.

In a situation where I was legally required not to employ expanding ammunition, I would prefer to carry a .45ACP if it was something like a Glock-21, otherwise, I might still go with my Glock-17 due to having more chances for a heart & lung shot. Because I'm not required to carry FMJ ammunition, I feel comfortable with a mag full of 9mm JHPs.

Posted: 8/7/2012 9:59:58 AM EDT

[#42]

Based on my Uncle's recommendation the .45 is the way to go. He said that everyone he shot with a .45 dropped to the ground. I will take his real world experience from Iwo Jima, Chosen Resavior, and Chu Lia for Tet as an expert in the field.

Posted: 8/7/2012 10:01:13 AM EDT

[#43]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Maybe a good comparison would be to shoot a drum full of water with a 9mm and another with a .45 and see which one drains faster.

A drum would be like a large blood vessel. A shot to the body that does not contain a large vein or artery, will bleed a lot differently. Also, shock and chemical reactions in the body can restrict blood flow from a wound in different ways. At least temporarily.

There is NO analagous item that can be shot to compare bleed rates from a human body, except a human body. And even then, size, general health, and a host of other factors will influence bleed rates.

Combat medical reports are probably the best information to be had, if you can locate them. Even then, you deal with erratic wound channels and a million other factors.

I wasn't suggesting a test analogous to human tissue.

Just one that merely shows how much faster water will flow out of a .45 hole vs. a 9mm. Flow rate increases exponentially with the diameter increase of an orifice. Flow vel = square root(2 g h)

A severed artery drains through the bullet hole in the body. A larger hole = faster draining.

You are right, drain out hole size will influence blood lost to the outside, but the body can lose enormous amounts of blood internally, too. I damn near lost a friend to an internal bleed in his intestinal tract.

With or without an exit, an artery that is severed will probably drain blood from the vascular system at roughly the same rate. A severed aorta, femoral or a carotid from blunt impact will kill you damn near as fast as if it was open to the outside. Most likely if an artery gets clipped or impacted directly with a bullet, it is going to get pretty wide open if not completely bisected. Besides a CNS hit, an arterial hit or heart destroying hit should be the next fastest stoppers.

Posted: 8/7/2012 10:03:57 AM EDT

[#44]

Quoted:

Quoted:
So he got shot in the arms and gut shot. Well it stopped him. But had those rounds been CoM his odds would not be so good regardless of caliber.

Those I'd prefer 147gr 9mm. Has better penetration over the light and fast 124 +p.

i CAN X2 THIS. We use Winchester Ranger STX 147 gr 9mm JHP. An inmate was shot by an officer carrying a duty Colt AR15 9mm chambered in the round i described. The entry wound was small but the exit wound was huge. It fooked him up :). He was in the hospital for a long time and the nurses had to keep packing the wound. This is why i highly recommend the 147 gr.

A little cheating, 14-16 inch barrel versus a 4.5 inch barrel will make a big difference in velocity.

no it wouldn't. 9mm uses fast powders. you'll see a 1 maybe 200 fps diffrence between a pistol and a carbine.

now .357 mag? thats a whole nother story!

Posted: 8/7/2012 10:06:10 AM EDT

[#45]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Given the higher pressure, would that impart a couple hundred FPS more out of a 16" barrel versus a 4 / 4.5 inch? I think it was 9mm NATO I was thinking of. Shit you should not shoot in old (like Luger) 9x19mm guns.

A longer barrel should result in an increase in velocity. 16" vs. 4 inches should result in a significant gain. I don't have any numbers handy, though.

What happens is that velocity goes up as barrel length increases and then you hit big flat spot and then it starts coming back down

Big mag rounds like 44 magnum with a huge case capacity can be loaded to produce high velocity in a rifle barrel but the autoloader rounds like 9mm and 45 acp peak out at around 10 inches

Posted: 8/7/2012 10:15:46 AM EDT

[#46]

Look at the Hero Officer in WI that was shot 9 times
with a 9mm..
Thankfully he is still alive and fighting.
Thankfully those rounds weren't .40 or .45.

Posted: 8/7/2012 10:20:51 AM EDT

[#47]

Quoted:

Look at the Hero Officer in WI that was shot 9 times

with a 9mm..

Thankfully he is still alive and fighting.

Thankfully those rounds weren't .40 or .45.

http://www.policemag.com/Channel/Patrol/Articles/2012/02/Shots-Fired-Skokie-Illinois-08-25-2008.aspx

Posted: 8/7/2012 10:21:29 AM EDT

[#48]

Quoted:

Look at the Hero Officer in WI that was shot 9 times
with a 9mm..
Thankfully he is still alive and fighting.
Thankfully those rounds weren't .40 or .45.

Thankfully, he is alive. He was shot in the neck.

Posted: 8/7/2012 10:49:16 AM EDT

[#49]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Given the higher pressure, would that impart a couple hundred FPS more out of a 16" barrel versus a 4 / 4.5 inch? I think it was 9mm NATO I was thinking of. Shit you should not shoot in old (like Luger) 9x19mm guns.

A longer barrel should result in an increase in velocity. 16" vs. 4 inches should result in a significant gain. I don't have any numbers handy, though.

I don't remember where, but I was reading about 9mm AR's a few years back, and I think I remember reading that around 10-11 inches is the sweet spot for 9mm. It's just enough room for a complete powder burn and maximum velocity.

Posted: 8/7/2012 11:19:32 AM EDT

[#50]

Quoted:
The .45; big, slow, crushing with the blunt force trauma of a sledge hammer is one of the calibers that is least compatible with the human system.

A retired Border Patrol agent who was old school and 'rode the river' back when they were allowed to do their jobs without worrying about Mexico's influence having them thrown in the pen said the .45 loaded with a 200gr. lead semi wadcutter was the most terminal round he knew of and with fewest return customers.

Thats all fine and great. Did he ever compare the location of the wounding between the less than lethal encounters with smaller rounds and the wounding of the lethal encounters with the 200gr. semi wadcutter? If not, his observation is essentially an opinion and has no basis in any scientific fact.

How do we know in most instances with the .45 they weren't hitting vital organs and the shootings with other calibers were just wounds that didn't stike any vital areas? You don't, and by the sounds of it, he wasn't a coroner or medical examiner either so arguments like these really should hold little to no weight.

For instance, I don't remember what the location was, but the LEO who got in a shootout with a BG on the opposite side of his vehicle. He put 17 rds. of .45 from a Glock 21 into the bad guy before he went down. Case in point, 16 of those 17 rounds were to non vital areas, until the last round was a CNS hit, which put him down for good.

As already been stated, location, location, location. .10 inches is not going to make a difference if the rounds aren't hitting vital organs.

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - 9mm vs .45ACP? With a real world incident. (Page 2 of 5)

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