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rkbar15
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Posted: 8/3/2012 8:06:48 AM
See link for full ruling info:

https://www.federalregister.gov/articles/2012/06/07/2012-13770/residency-requirements-for-aliens-acquiring-firearms-2011r-23p


DATES: Effective date: This interim rule is effective on July 9, 2012.

Action: Interim Final Rule With Request For Comments.

Summary:
The Department of Justice is amending the regulations of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives (ATF) by removing the 90-day State residency requirement for aliens lawfully present in the United States to purchase or acquire a firearm. The Department has determined that the Gun Control Act does not permit ATF to impose a regulatory requirement that aliens lawfully present in the United States are subject to a 90-day State residency requirement when such a requirement is not applicable to U.S. citizens. In addition, upon the effective date of this interim final rule the provisions of ATF Ruling 2004-1 will become obsolete.

........................

IV. Interim Final Rule

Based on the Department's legal determination that the State of residence requirement imposed by section 922(b)(3) cannot have two different constructions—one that applies to U.S. citizens and another that applies to lawfully present aliens—the Department is publishing this interim final rule to make the necessary changes to existing regulations. This rule amends the regulations in 27 CFR part 478 by removing the 90-day residency requirement in the definition of "State of residence” in § 478.11. The rule also removes the unique proof of residency requirements in §§ 478.124 and 478.125 for aliens purchasing a firearm. Therefore, upon the effective date of this interim final rule, an alien lawfully present in the United States acquiring a firearm will be subject to the same residency and proof of residency requirements that apply to U.S. citizens.

In addition, upon the effective date of this interim final rule, ATF Ruling 2004-1 (approved March 22, 2004) will become obsolete.










_DR
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Posted: 8/3/2012 8:09:47 AM
[Last Edit: 8/3/2012 8:14:44 AM by _DR]
The rule also removes the unique proof of residency requirements in §§ 478.124 and 478.125 for aliens purchasing a firearm



Cliffs notes: ATF just made it easier for anyone who is not an American citizen to buy guns, yes, including illegal aliens, since no proof of residency is now required.

Which of us US citizens could go out and buy a new gun without proof of residency?

Since BATFE is directly under Obama's executive branch, this makes sense. It's like a legal version of fast and furious, since most Mexican nationals will not be in the NICS database.
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sigp226
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Posted: 8/3/2012 8:12:27 AM
Originally Posted By _DR:

Cliffs notes: ATF just made it easier for anyone who is not an American citizen to buy guns.

Since BATFE is directly under Obama's executive branch, this makes sense.

Restrict US citizens every way possible, make it easier for aliens.


What actually happened is they realized their practice was discriminatory and not based in statute.
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_DR
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Posted: 8/3/2012 8:15:43 AM
Originally Posted By sigp226:
Originally Posted By _DR:

Cliffs notes: ATF just made it easier for anyone who is not an American citizen to buy guns.

Since BATFE is directly under Obama's executive branch, this makes sense.

Restrict US citizens every way possible, make it easier for aliens.


What actually happened is they realized their practice was discriminatory and not based in statute.


So restricting citizens in border states to 2 longarms a month is based in statute?

Show me where, please.
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Posted: 8/3/2012 8:17:40 AM
Interesting times we are living.
Bladeswitcher
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Posted: 8/3/2012 8:22:59 AM
[Last Edit: 8/3/2012 8:29:06 AM by Bladeswitcher]
Originally Posted By _DR:
The rule also removes the unique proof of residency requirements in §§ 478.124 and 478.125 for aliens purchasing a firearm



Cliffs notes: ATF just made it easier for anyone who is not an American citizen to buy guns, yes, including illegal aliens, since no proof of residency is now required.

Which of us US citizens could go out and buy a new gun without proof of residency?

Since BATFE is directly under Obama's executive branch, this makes sense. It's like a legal version of fast and furious, since most Mexican nationals will not be in the NICS database.




Are you an FFL? If so, surely you know that gun buyers must provide a green card number to show that they are in the U.S. legally. If you're not a dealer, the next time you buy a gun take a look at question 15:

If you are not a citizen of the United States, what is your U.S.-issued alien number or admission number?


On a related point, let me ask you a question: Do you think the right to own a gun is something bestowed by the U.S. government on its citizens? Or, do you believe that the right to defend oneself (and by extension, the right to possess the means to do so) is an inalienable right bestowed on all free men by their creator?

ETA: BTW, all gun buyers must provide a photo ID that establishes residency (or, alternatively, a photo ID and some other government document that establishes residency). The only change is that aliens no longer need to prove they have been in that residence for at least 90 days.
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Posted: 8/3/2012 8:25:51 AM
Does your knee hurt from jerking it so hard?


Good change.
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Posted: 8/3/2012 8:25:54 AM
Good, there should be no restrictions on anybody.
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azcactusbrew
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Posted: 8/3/2012 8:30:09 AM
Originally Posted By Bladeswitcher:
Originally Posted By _DR:
The rule also removes the unique proof of residency requirements in §§ 478.124 and 478.125 for aliens purchasing a firearm



Cliffs notes: ATF just made it easier for anyone who is not an American citizen to buy guns, yes, including illegal aliens, since no proof of residency is now required.

Which of us US citizens could go out and buy a new gun without proof of residency?

Since BATFE is directly under Obama's executive branch, this makes sense. It's like a legal version of fast and furious, since most Mexican nationals will not be in the NICS database.




Are you an FFL? If so, surely you know that gun buyers must provide a green card number to show that they are in the U.S. legally. If you're not a dealer, the next time you buy a gun take a look at question 15:

If you are not a citizen of the United States, what is your U.S.-issued alien number or admission number?


On a related point, let me ask you a question: Do you think the right to own a gun is something bestowed by the U.S. government on its citizens? Or, do you believe that the right to defend oneself (and by extension, the right to possess the means to do so) is an inalienable right bestowed on all free men by their creator?

ETA: BTW, all gun buyers must provide a photo ID that establishes residency (or, alternatively, a photo ID and some other government document that establishes residency). The only change is that aliens no longer need to prove they have been in that residence for at least 90 days.


Yep. And as another poster stated, if ATF was all about fixing statutory issues, they'd remove the whole 2 long gun notification requirement on the southern borders. This is just another attempt by the Obama administration to fuck gun owners after Fast and Furious went to hell.


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Posted: 8/3/2012 8:33:23 AM

Originally Posted By _DR:
The rule also removes the unique proof of residency requirements in §§ 478.124 and 478.125 for aliens purchasing a firearm



Cliffs notes: ATF just made it easier for anyone who is not an American citizen to buy guns, yes, including illegal aliens, since no proof of residency is now required.

Which of us US citizens could go out and buy a new gun without proof of residency?

Since BATFE is directly under Obama's executive branch, this makes sense. It's like a legal version of fast and furious, since most Mexican nationals will not be in the NICS database.



Valid ID is still required, a NICS check still has to be done, non-Citizens still have to provide their green card / visa number, the only change is that now I don't have to show 3 months of utility bills every time I buy a gun.
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Bladeswitcher
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Posted: 8/3/2012 8:33:47 AM
Originally Posted By azcactusbrew:


Yep. And as another poster stated, if ATF was all about fixing statutory issues, they'd remove the whole 2 long gun notification requirement on the southern borders. This is just another attempt by the Obama administration to fuck gun owners after Fast and Furious went to hell.



I'm not sure how removing the 90-day residency requirement for aliens qualifies as an attempt to fuck gun owners. Perhaps you could spell that out for me.
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Bradders
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Posted: 8/3/2012 8:33:58 AM
Does this mean that I could buy a gun while on holiday in the US?
simple1
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Posted: 8/3/2012 8:34:26 AM
Originally Posted By azcactusbrew:
Originally Posted By Bladeswitcher:
Originally Posted By _DR:
The rule also removes the unique proof of residency requirements in §§ 478.124 and 478.125 for aliens purchasing a firearm



Cliffs notes: ATF just made it easier for anyone who is not an American citizen to buy guns, yes, including illegal aliens, since no proof of residency is now required.

Which of us US citizens could go out and buy a new gun without proof of residency?

Since BATFE is directly under Obama's executive branch, this makes sense. It's like a legal version of fast and furious, since most Mexican nationals will not be in the NICS database.




Are you an FFL? If so, surely you know that gun buyers must provide a green card number to show that they are in the U.S. legally. If you're not a dealer, the next time you buy a gun take a look at question 15:

If you are not a citizen of the United States, what is your U.S.-issued alien number or admission number?


On a related point, let me ask you a question: Do you think the right to own a gun is something bestowed by the U.S. government on its citizens? Or, do you believe that the right to defend oneself (and by extension, the right to possess the means to do so) is an inalienable right bestowed on all free men by their creator?

ETA: BTW, all gun buyers must provide a photo ID that establishes residency (or, alternatively, a photo ID and some other government document that establishes residency). The only change is that aliens no longer need to prove they have been in that residence for at least 90 days.


Yep. And as another poster stated, if ATF was all about fixing statutory issues, they'd remove the whole 2 long gun notification requirement on the southern borders. This is just another attempt by the Obama administration to fuck gun owners after Fast and Furious went to hell.




Actually...the notification requirement is a result of Executive Order.
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Posted: 8/3/2012 8:35:40 AM
Originally Posted By Stove_Pipe:
Good, there should be no restrictions on anybody.


My thoughts exactly.
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Posted: 8/3/2012 8:39:17 AM

Originally Posted By Bradders:
Does this mean that I could buy a gun while on holiday in the US?

It would appear that way, providing you have all of the required documents.


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MouseGun87
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Posted: 8/3/2012 8:41:24 AM
Originally Posted By _DR:
The rule also removes the unique proof of residency requirements in §§ 478.124 and 478.125 for aliens purchasing a firearm



Cliffs notes: ATF just made it easier for anyone who is not an American citizen to buy guns, yes, including illegal aliens, since no proof of residency is now required.

Which of us US citizens could go out and buy a new gun without proof of residency?

Since BATFE is directly under Obama's executive branch, this makes sense. It's like a legal version of fast and furious, since most Mexican nationals will not be in the NICS database.


Not really. An alien is still required to present proof of legal immigration status by providing an alien registration number (as listed on the green card and/or I-94). The NICS check for alien has an extra layer built in which involves NICS contacting the USCIS database to verify the alien legal status AND contacting the state department database to verify that the alien is NOT on any terror suspect or wanted list.

The residency requirement is actually the easiest part of documentation that an alien must present to legally purchase a gun.

Just like a citizen, an alien must also present state issued DL.
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Posted: 8/3/2012 8:41:30 AM
Originally Posted By Bradders:
Does this mean that I could buy a gun while on holiday in the US?


maybe . . .

Q3. May a nonimmigrant alien who has been admitted to the United States under a nonimmigrant alien visa purchase or possess a firearm in the U.S.?

A3. An alien admitted to the United States under a nonimmigrant visa is not prohibited from purchasing, receiving, or possessing a firearm if the alien falls within one of the following exceptions: (1) is in possession of a hunting license or permit lawfully issued by the Federal Government, a State, or local government, or an Indian tribe federally recognized by the Bureau of Indian Affairs, which is valid and unexpired; (2) was admitted to the United States for lawful hunting or sporting purposes; (3) has received a waiver from the prohibition from the Attorney General of the United States; (4) is an official representative of a foreign government who is accredited to the United States Government or the Government’s mission to an international organization having its headquarters in the United States; (5) is en route to or from another country to which that alien is accredited; (6) is an official of a foreign government or a distinguished foreign visitor who has been so designated by the Department of State; or (7) is a foreign law enforcement officer of a friendly foreign government entering the United States on official law enforcement business.
In addition, a nonimmigrant alien legally in the United States with or without a nonimmigrant visa may lawfully acquire a firearm only if he/she meets State of residence requirements as required by the Federal government. For more information, see ATF Ruling 2010-6 at: http://www.atf.gov/regulations-rulings/rulings/atf-rulings/atf-ruling-2010-6.pdf.
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Bladeswitcher
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Posted: 8/3/2012 8:44:04 AM
Originally Posted By peekay:

Originally Posted By Bradders:
Does this mean that I could buy a gun while on holiday in the US?

It would appear that way, providing you have all of the required documents.





The change being discussed in this thread has no bearing on people traveling in the U.S. as a tourist.
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MouseGun87
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Posted: 8/3/2012 8:44:48 AM
Originally Posted By Bradders:
Does this mean that I could buy a gun while on holiday in the US?


Well, can you get a Government issued ID card during your stay? I don't think so. After 9/11 driver license for aliens requires a set of rules which include certain immigration statuses. Visitors or tourists are not among these statuses.
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Posted: 8/3/2012 8:45:28 AM
Originally Posted By Bladeswitcher:
Originally Posted By azcactusbrew:


Yep. And as another poster stated, if ATF was all about fixing statutory issues, they'd remove the whole 2 long gun notification requirement on the southern borders. This is just another attempt by the Obama administration to fuck gun owners after Fast and Furious went to hell.



I'm not sure how removing the 90-day residency requirement for aliens qualifies as an attempt to fuck gun owners. Perhaps you could spell that out for me.


Look, guys, anything Obama does is bad!
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sigp226
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Posted: 8/3/2012 8:47:05 AM
Originally Posted By _DR:

So restricting citizens in border states to 2 longarms a month is based in statute?

Show me where, please.


They're not restricting the number of long guns purchased. They're reporting multiple sales. You can buy all the guns you want there, just have to deal with any fedgov nitwits that want to know if Eric Holder is paying you more than them.
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Bradders
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Posted: 8/3/2012 8:54:28 AM
Originally Posted By peekay:

Originally Posted By Bradders:
Does this mean that I could buy a gun while on holiday in the US?

It would appear that way, providing you have all of the required documents.




Hmmm, not sure what that would be but technically I can purchase a firearm in your country with a hunting license.
Of course, convincing a FFL of that is a different matter!!!

It would make my life a lot easier though,
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Posted: 8/3/2012 8:56:55 AM
[Last Edit: 8/3/2012 8:59:50 AM by Bladeswitcher]
OK, for the benefit of folks who care about such arcane shit, here is a Q&A document from the BATFE to explain recent changes to the 4473 . . .

QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS - REVISED ATF F4473 (APRIL 2012 EDITION)

Q1. Who is a nonimmigrant alien?

A1. Generally, “nonimmigrant aliens” are tourists, students, business travelers, and temporary workers who enter the U.S. for fixed periods of time; they are lawfully admitted aliens who are not lawful permanent residents. In order to meet the definition of a nonimmigrant alien, the individual MUST hold a nonimmigrant visa. The definition does NOT include permanent resident aliens, aliens legally admitted to the U.S. with a visa other than a nonimmigrant visa, or aliens legally admitted to the U.S. without a visa.

Q2. How does the reinterpretation of the Gun Control Act’s firearms disabilities for certain nonimmigrant aliens impact nonimmigrant aliens?

A2. There is no change with respect to nonimmigrant aliens who were admitted under a nonimmigrant visa. The interpretation of the Gun Control Act affects aliens who are lawfully in the United States without a nonimmigrant visa.
Nonimmigrant aliens lawfully admitted to the United States without a visa (e.g. Visa Waiver Program), will not be prohibited from shipping, transporting, receiving, or possessing firearms or ammunition, provided that they meet State of residency requirements and are not otherwise prohibited from shipping, transporting, receiving, or possessing firearms.

Q3. May a nonimmigrant alien who has been admitted to the United States under a nonimmigrant alien visa purchase or possess a firearm in the U.S.?

A3. An alien admitted to the United States under a nonimmigrant visa is not prohibited from purchasing, receiving, or possessing a firearm if the alien falls within one of the following exceptions: (1) is in possession of a hunting license or permit lawfully issued by the Federal Government, a State, or local government, or an Indian tribe federally recognized by the Bureau of Indian Affairs, which is valid and unexpired; (2) was admitted to the United States for lawful hunting or sporting purposes; (3) has received a waiver from the prohibition from the Attorney General of the United States; (4) is an official representative of a foreign government who is accredited to the United States Government or the Government’s mission to an international organization having its headquarters in the United States; (5) is en route to or from another country to which that alien is accredited; (6) is an official of a foreign government or a distinguished foreign visitor who has been so designated by the Department of State; or (7) is a foreign law enforcement officer of a friendly foreign government entering the United States on official law enforcement business.
In addition, a nonimmigrant alien legally in the United States with or without a nonimmigrant visa may lawfully acquire a firearm only if he/she meets State of residence requirements as required by the Federal government. For more information, see ATF Ruling 2010-6 at: http://www.atf.gov/regulations-rulings/rulings/atf-rulings/atf-ruling-2010-6.pdf.

Q4. If I’m a nonimmigrant alien legally in the United States with a nonimmigrant visa, what documentation must I provide to the Federal firearms licensee (FFL) prior to acquiring a firearm?

A4. It is unlawful for a FFL to sell or deliver any firearm to any nonlicensee who the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in the State in which the licensee’s place of business is located. Exceptions are provided for over-the-counter transfers of a rifle or shotgun to out-of-State residents if the transfers fully comply with the State laws of the buyer and seller, and for loans and rentals of a firearm for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes.
To acquire a firearm, you must demonstrate the intention of making a home in a particular State. The intention of making a home in a State must be demonstrated to a Federal firearms licensee by presenting valid government issued identification documents indicating an address in the state in which the licensee’s place of business is located. Such documents include, but are not limited to, driver’s licenses, voter registration, tax records, or vehicle registration. For more information, see ATF Ruling 2001-5 available at: http://atf.gov/regulations-rulings/rulings/atf-rulings/atf-ruling-2001-5.html.
In addition, you must also demonstrate that you fall within one of the exceptions outlined in 18 U.S.C. 922(y)(2). (Refer to Question #3 above).

Q5. I’m a nonimmigrant alien lawfully present in the United States without a visa. May I purchase or possess a firearm in the United States?

A5. A nonimmigrant alien who is lawfully admitted to the United States without a visa (e.g. Visa Waiver Program), may acquire or possess a firearm in the United States, provided that he or she is not prohibited from shipping, transporting, receiving, or possessing firearms or ammunition in the U.S.
In addition, a nonimmigrant alien legally in the United States with or without a nonimmigrant visa may lawfully acquire a firearm only if he/she meets State of residence requirements as required by the Federal government. For more information, see ATF Ruling 2010-6 at: http://www.atf.gov/regulations-rulings/rulings/atf-rulings/atf-ruling-2010-6.pdf.
These requirements are irrespective of the licensed status of the individual from whom the alien is purchasing the firearm. An unlicensed individual is prohibited from selling a firearm to an out-of-State resident. A Federal firearms licensee (FFL) is prohibited, with few exceptions, from transferring a firearm to an out-of-State resident.

Q6. What is the Visa Waiver Program?


A6. The Visa Waiver Program enables nationals from participating countries to travel to the United States for tourism or business for stays of 90 days or less without obtaining a visa. Participating countries can be found at the Department of State website available at: http://travel.state.gov/visa/temp/without/without_1990.html.

Q7. Does a nonimmigrant alien lawfully present in the United States with or without a visa have to comply with the 90 day residency requirement?

A7. No. The 90 day residency requirement is no longer in effect. However, a nonimmigrant alien who is lawfully present in the United States must comply with State of residence requirements as required by the Federal government. For more information, see ATF Ruling 2010-6 at: http://www.atf.gov/regulations-rulings/rulings/atf-rulings/atf-ruling-2010-6.pdf.

Q8. I Answered Item 10.a on the ATF Form 4473. Do I have to answer 10.b. as well?

A8. Yes. You must select at least one race in item 10.b. regardless of ethnicity designation selected in item 10.a. Both items must be answered. Ethnicity and race are further defined below:
Ethnicity – This refers to a person’s heritage. Persons of Cuban, Mexican, Puerto Rican, South or Central American, or other Spanish culture or origin, regardless of race, are considered Hispanic or Latino. Any other ethnicity that does not fall within those indicated, please select the closest representation.
Race – More than one response may be selected. o American Indian or Alaska Native - A person having origins in any of the original peoples of North and South America (including Central America), and who maintains a tribal affiliation or community attachment. o Asian - A person having origins in any of the original peoples of the Far East, Southeast Asia, or the Indian subcontinent including, for example, Cambodia, China, India, Japan, Korea, Malaysia, Pakistan, the Philippine Islands, Thailand, and Vietnam. o Black or African American - A person having origins in any of the Black racial groups of Africa. o Native Hawaiian or Other Pacific Islander - A person having origins in any of the original peoples of Hawaii, Guam, Samoa, or other Pacific Islands. o White - A person having origins in any of the original peoples of Europe, the Middle East, or North Africa.
In a truly free country, Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms would be the name of a convenience store, not a federal agency
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Posted: 8/3/2012 9:06:01 AM
Originally Posted By peekay:

Originally Posted By Bradders:
Does this mean that I could buy a gun while on holiday in the US?

It would appear that way, providing you have all of the required documents.



Do you have a state issued DL in the state you are buying the gun in (provided it's a handgun)?
Do you have a valid green card?

In that case yes.

Otherwise NO!
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Posted: 8/3/2012 9:08:50 AM
Originally Posted By MarkNH:

Originally Posted By _DR:
The rule also removes the unique proof of residency requirements in §§ 478.124 and 478.125 for aliens purchasing a firearm



Cliffs notes: ATF just made it easier for anyone who is not an American citizen to buy guns, yes, including illegal aliens, since no proof of residency is now required.

Which of us US citizens could go out and buy a new gun without proof of residency?

Since BATFE is directly under Obama's executive branch, this makes sense. It's like a legal version of fast and furious, since most Mexican nationals will not be in the NICS database.



Valid ID is still required, a NICS check still has to be done, non-Citizens still have to provide their green card / visa number, the only change is that now I don't have to show 3 months of utility bills every time I buy a gun.


That really helps prevent any impulse purchases doesn't it.......

While I am doing the happy dance right now, my bank account isn't.

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Posted: 8/3/2012 9:20:33 AM
Originally Posted By Bradders:
Does this mean that I could buy a gun while on holiday in the US?


Fly into texas and they give you one when you get off the plane. Thats what Family Guy said they do.
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Posted: 8/3/2012 9:21:12 AM
Originally Posted By tctlrld:
Originally Posted By peekay:

Originally Posted By Bradders:
Does this mean that I could buy a gun while on holiday in the US?

It would appear that way, providing you have all of the required documents.



Do you have a state issued DL in the state you are buying the gun in (provided it's a handgun)?
Do you have a valid green card?

In that case yes.

Otherwise NO!


Well I've just read Bladeswitchers post above yours and some of it seems contradictory (but I will admit I'm not much good with legal jargon and documents).
It does appear though that I could purchase with a hunting license
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Posted: 8/3/2012 9:25:13 AM

Originally Posted By Bladeswitcher:

OK, for the benefit of folks who care about such arcane shit, here is a Q&A document from the BATFE to explain recent changes to the 4473 . . .


Thanks!
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Posted: 8/3/2012 9:36:59 AM
The timing of this is suspect, as is the intent.

Since Team Obama doesn't believe in the right of individuals to own firearms, why would they order the ATF to relax the residency requirement requirements on purchasing firearms?

I suspect something entirely different with this move...

The intent is obviously to make it easier for foreign nationals to purchase firearms in the US. Why?
hotbiggun42
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Posted: 8/3/2012 9:40:01 AM
Originally Posted By Bradders:
Does this mean that I could buy a gun while on holiday in the US?


Are you a Mexican?
nick1983
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Posted: 8/3/2012 9:48:57 AM
Originally Posted By LRRPF52:
The timing of this is suspect, as is the intent.

Since Team Obama doesn't believe in the right of individuals to own firearms, why would they order the ATF to relax the residency requirement requirements on purchasing firearms?

I suspect something entirely different with this move...

The intent is obviously to make it easier for foreign nationals to purchase firearms in the US. Why?


Legal foreign nationals, i.e. you must still show your green card when you buy a gun.

"All I know is that to see, but not to speak, would be the Great Betrayal." Enoch Powell
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Posted: 8/3/2012 10:02:14 AM

Originally Posted By Bladeswitcher:
Originally Posted By Bradders:
Does this mean that I could buy a gun while on holiday in the US?


maybe . . .


Even if he meets the legal requirements to purchase/possess he would be prohibited from leaving the country with the gun unless he also complied with the federal firearms export requirements of the US in addition to any import requirements of his country of residence.

Col-W
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Posted: 8/3/2012 10:03:48 AM
Originally Posted By Bradders:
Does this mean that I could buy a gun while on holiday in the US?


No, you are British - we still haven't gotten over that. Sorry.
scottedward58
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Posted: 8/3/2012 10:06:13 AM
Originally Posted By sigp226:
Originally Posted By _DR:

Cliffs notes: ATF just made it easier for anyone who is not an American citizen to buy guns.

Since BATFE is directly under Obama's executive branch, this makes sense.

Restrict US citizens every way possible, make it easier for aliens.


What actually happened is they realized their practice was discriminatory and not based in statute.


Yeah this administration and the ATF are real worried about obeying laws and regulations. They have some reason for doing this and it has nothing to do with complying with the law.
"I have a right to nothing which another has a right to take away." letter to Uriah Forrest, 1787, T. Jefferson "It is the duty of the patriot to protect his country from its government." Thomas Paine
scottedward58
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Posted: 8/3/2012 10:09:51 AM
Originally Posted By TrojanMan:
Does your knee hurt from jerking it so hard?


Good change.


From any other administration this would be a good change but this administration has proved many times over that it doesn't care about following the law or regulations, so why all of a sudden are they now so concerned in this one case?
"I have a right to nothing which another has a right to take away." letter to Uriah Forrest, 1787, T. Jefferson "It is the duty of the patriot to protect his country from its government." Thomas Paine
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Posted: 8/3/2012 10:10:43 AM
[Last Edit: 8/3/2012 10:11:43 AM by rkbar15]

Originally Posted By LRRPF52:
The timing of this is suspect, as is the intent.

Since Team Obama doesn't believe in the right of individuals to own firearms, why would they order the ATF to relax the residency requirement requirements on purchasing firearms?

I suspect something entirely different with this move...

The intent is obviously to make it easier for foreign nationals to purchase firearms in the US. Why?

From the full text as linked in the OP:

During the review process for a related rulemaking proceeding, Department of Justice officials raised legal concerns regarding the 90-day residency requirement for aliens lawfully in the United States who wish to purchase a firearm from an FFL. The Department concluded that, as a matter of law, the definition of "State of residence” in § 478.11, which differentiates between U.S. citizens and aliens, is not a permissible interpretation of section 922(b)(3) of the GCA insofar as it applies a 90-day residency requirement to lawfully present aliens only. See Clark v. Martinez, 543 U.S. 371, 378 (2005) (holding that a single, undifferentiated statutory term cannot be given varying meanings with respect to different categories of persons to which the statutory provision applies). The Department determined that, as a matter of law, nothing in the text of section 922(b)(3) indicates that Congress intended the phrase "State of residence” to have different meanings for different categories of people. Section 922(b)(3) includes the term `reside in' without any further differentiation or specification. The statute might support a range of meanings for the phrase `reside in,' but it does not support an interpretation that gives the phrase different meanings when applied to lawfully present aliens and U.S. citizens.

The Department's determination is based on advice received from its Office of Legal Counsel (OLC) (See memorandum of January 30, 2012, at http://www.justice.gov/olc/2012/ATF90dayruleFINAL1-30-12.pdf).


Bradders
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Posted: 8/3/2012 10:46:25 AM
Originally Posted By rkbar15:

Originally Posted By Bladeswitcher:
Originally Posted By Bradders:
Does this mean that I could buy a gun while on holiday in the US?


maybe . . .


Even if he meets the legal requirements to purchase/possess he would be prohibited from leaving the country with the gun unless he also complied with the federal firearms export requirements of the US in addition to any import requirements of his country of residence.


There'd be no intention of leaving with it.

Let me ask this direct question, if I as a foreign national travelled to the US for a 3-4 week stay, could I purchase a firearm with a valid hunting license and leave it with someone in the US (a US citizen) so I could use on future trips for shooting competitions and hunting?

My reading of that is that yes I could quite legally.
Would any of you agree with that?

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Posted: 8/3/2012 10:55:56 AM
[Last Edit: 8/3/2012 10:57:35 AM by Kevyn]
Originally Posted By _DR:
The rule also removes the unique proof of residency requirements in §§ 478.124 and 478.125 for aliens purchasing a firearm



Cliffs notes: ATF just made it easier for anyone who is not an American citizen to buy guns, yes, including illegal aliens, since no proof of residency is now required.

Which of us US citizens could go out and buy a new gun without proof of residency?

Since BATFE is directly under Obama's executive branch, this makes sense. It's like a legal version of fast and furious, since most Mexican nationals will not be in the NICS database.


comments withdrawn ...
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Posted: 8/3/2012 11:35:34 AM
Originally Posted By Bradders:
Originally Posted By rkbar15:

Originally Posted By Bladeswitcher:
Originally Posted By Bradders:
Does this mean that I could buy a gun while on holiday in the US?


maybe . . .


Even if he meets the legal requirements to purchase/possess he would be prohibited from leaving the country with the gun unless he also complied with the federal firearms export requirements of the US in addition to any import requirements of his country of residence.


There'd be no intention of leaving with it.

Let me ask this direct question, if I as a foreign national travelled to the US for a 3-4 week stay, could I purchase a firearm with a valid hunting license and leave it with someone in the US (a US citizen) so I could use on future trips for shooting competitions and hunting?

My reading of that is that yes I could quite legally.
Would any of you agree with that?



If it is made in or before 1898 definitely......

Other guns I am not sure?
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Posted: 8/3/2012 11:40:53 AM
Originally Posted By MarkNH:

Originally Posted By _DR:
The rule also removes the unique proof of residency requirements in §§ 478.124 and 478.125 for aliens purchasing a firearm



Cliffs notes: ATF just made it easier for anyone who is not an American citizen to buy guns, yes, including illegal aliens, since no proof of residency is now required.

Which of us US citizens could go out and buy a new gun without proof of residency?

Since BATFE is directly under Obama's executive branch, this makes sense. It's like a legal version of fast and furious, since most Mexican nationals will not be in the NICS database.



Valid ID is still required, a NICS check still has to be done, non-Citizens still have to provide their green card / visa number, the only change is that now I don't have to show 3 months of utility bills every time I buy a gun.


This, finding 3 months of consecutive bills was a pain in the dick.
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Posted: 8/3/2012 11:50:04 AM

Originally Posted By _DR:

So restricting citizens in border states to 2 longarms a month is based in statute?


That is funny. I bet you think we give out free guns at Welcome Centers too.
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Posted: 8/3/2012 12:00:56 PM
Originally Posted By LRRPF52:
The timing of this is suspect, as is the intent.

Since Team Obama doesn't believe in the right of individuals to own firearms, why would they order the ATF to relax the residency requirement requirements on purchasing firearms?

I suspect something entirely different with this move...

The intent is obviously to make it easier for foreign nationals to purchase firearms in the US. Why?


My thoughts exactly, this isn't being done because it's the right thing to do.

Those who deny freedom to others deserve it not for themselves.
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Posted: 8/3/2012 12:02:28 PM
Originally Posted By RenegadeX:

Originally Posted By _DR:

So restricting citizens in border states to 2 longarms a month is based in statute?


That is funny. I bet you think we give out free guns at Welcome Centers too.


Only on the Mexican border

Sorry Canada
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Posted: 8/3/2012 12:15:40 PM
[Last Edit: 8/3/2012 12:17:33 PM by Bladeswitcher]
Originally Posted By Bradders:
Originally Posted By rkbar15:

Originally Posted By Bladeswitcher:
Originally Posted By Bradders:
Does this mean that I could buy a gun while on holiday in the US?


maybe . . .


Even if he meets the legal requirements to purchase/possess he would be prohibited from leaving the country with the gun unless he also complied with the federal firearms export requirements of the US in addition to any import requirements of his country of residence.


There'd be no intention of leaving with it.

Let me ask this direct question, if I as a foreign national travelled to the US for a 3-4 week stay, could I purchase a firearm with a valid hunting license and leave it with someone in the US (a US citizen) so I could use on future trips for shooting competitions and hunting?

My reading of that is that yes I could quite legally.
Would any of you agree with that?



I'm an FFL, but the whole non-immigrant alien thing is still a bit nebulous to me (largely because I don't know much about the immigration process or foreign travel). That said, here's my take:

* Leaving the gun in the U.S. with a citizen would be no problem in MY STATE. Face to face transfers between non-licensed individuals are nobody's business as long as neither party is a prohibited person. Not every state's laws are as liberal, though.
* Assuming you jump through all the hoops outlined in the BATFE Q&A I posted above, I BELIEVE you could buy a gun. How easy it is for you to jump through the hoops, I don't know. Again, I don't know shit about immigration or visas.
* If you came into my shop and didn't come across as a shitbum, I would try to work with you to make it happen. I can't guarantee that a call to BATFE would produce any useful information, though. Probably depends on the phase of the moon on the day I call.

In a truly free country, Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms would be the name of a convenience store, not a federal agency
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Posted: 8/3/2012 12:18:56 PM
Originally Posted By _DR:
The rule also removes the unique proof of residency requirements in §§ 478.124 and 478.125 for aliens purchasing a firearm



Cliffs notes: ATF just made it easier for anyone who is not an American citizen to buy guns, yes, including illegal aliens, since no proof of residency is now required.

Which of us US citizens could go out and buy a new gun without proof of residency?

Since BATFE is directly under Obama's executive branch, this makes sense. It's like a legal version of fast and furious, since most Mexican nationals will not be in the NICS database.


Derp derpity derp derp.

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Posted: 8/3/2012 12:19:24 PM
Originally Posted By scottedward58:
Originally Posted By TrojanMan:
Does your knee hurt from jerking it so hard?


Good change.


From any other administration this would be a good change but this administration has proved many times over that it doesn't care about following the law or regulations, so why all of a sudden are they now so concerned in this one case?


Not every decision BATFE makes is political. Sometimes, it's just bureaucrats being bureaucrats.
In a truly free country, Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms would be the name of a convenience store, not a federal agency
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Posted: 8/3/2012 12:19:39 PM
Originally Posted By _DR:
The rule also removes the unique proof of residency requirements in §§ 478.124 and 478.125 for aliens purchasing a firearm



Cliffs notes: ATF just made it easier for anyone who is not an American citizen to buy guns, yes, including illegal aliens, since no proof of residency is now required.
Which of us US citizens could go out and buy a new gun without proof of residency?

Since BATFE is directly under Obama's executive branch, this makes sense. It's like a legal version of fast and furious, since most Mexican nationals will not be in the NICS database.


Proof of residency is not proof of status.I believe that they would still need an alien registration number.
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Posted: 8/3/2012 12:20:55 PM
Good give me guns
Posted by Stealthyblagga:

Liberalism is the triumph of emotion over intellect, but masquerading as the reverse.
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Posted: 8/3/2012 12:24:23 PM
Originally Posted By Bradders:
Originally Posted By rkbar15:

Originally Posted By Bladeswitcher:
Originally Posted By Bradders:
Does this mean that I could buy a gun while on holiday in the US?


maybe . . .


Even if he meets the legal requirements to purchase/possess he would be prohibited from leaving the country with the gun unless he also complied with the federal firearms export requirements of the US in addition to any import requirements of his country of residence.


There'd be no intention of leaving with it.

Let me ask this direct question, if I as a foreign national travelled to the US for a 3-4 week stay, could I purchase a firearm with a valid hunting license and leave it with someone in the US (a US citizen) so I could use on future trips for shooting competitions and hunting?

My reading of that is that yes I could quite legally.
Would any of you agree with that?



Typically in the past you needed a state hunting license to cover alot of the basics. You can get Alaska online for a few bucks
Posted by Stealthyblagga:

Liberalism is the triumph of emotion over intellect, but masquerading as the reverse.
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Posted: 8/3/2012 12:29:55 PM
Originally Posted By Themancave:
Originally Posted By LRRPF52:
The timing of this is suspect, as is the intent.

Since Team Obama doesn't believe in the right of individuals to own firearms, why would they order the ATF to relax the residency requirement requirements on purchasing firearms?

I suspect something entirely different with this move...

The intent is obviously to make it easier for foreign nationals to purchase firearms in the US. Why?


My thoughts exactly, this isn't being done because it's the right thing to do.



It does seems unlikely that the current justice department would go looking through their regs for ones that are unlawful solely to help legal gun owners.
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Posted: 8/3/2012 12:30:48 PM

Originally Posted By Bradders:

There'd be no intention of leaving with it.

Let me ask this direct question, if I as a foreign national travelled to the US for a 3-4 week stay, could I purchase a firearm with a valid hunting license and leave it with someone in the US (a US citizen) so I could use on future trips for shooting competitions and hunting?

My reading of that is that yes I could quite legally.
Would any of you agree with that?


I'm not positive it makes a difference but assuming the purpose of your visit is for tourism will you be entering the U.S. under the visa waiver program or with a nonimmigrant B-2 visa?


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