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Posted: 7/30/2012 3:59:55 PM EDT
[#1]
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Hell, the Europeans couldn't even arm their own damn planes or fuel then for the Libyan campaign, which was a seriously limited engagement. USAF probably had to foot the bill for the fuel they used for that exercise. Can't speak for the rest of Europe but we payed for our own fuel. We also flew over 3000 sorties in the Libyan campaign and dug into some of our munitions stockpiles in Cyprus. Those stockpiles have now been replenished. |
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Posted: 7/30/2012 4:03:31 PM EDT
[#2]
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Fucking rights. Both the F-22 and F-35 are fucking dogs. How are those Spads working out for Canada? I don't think of Canada when I think of highly complex war machines, I think more beaver pelt armor and wooden trebuchet technology. |
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Posted: 7/30/2012 4:04:57 PM EDT
[#3]
Quoted: Quoted: individual German Typhoons flew against single F-22s in basic fighter maneuvers meant to simulate a close-range dogfight. Not surprising. The Typhoon's airframe is designed to be ultra maneuverable. The F-22 compromises this for stealth. F-22's tactics are to sneak up your tailpipe and see if you can outmaneuver a missile. Exactly and these manuevers are fucking dumb. You don't go into a "fair fight", you use the strengths of your weapon systems. It doesn't matter if the Eurofighter can play even handed against the F-22 in a close range fight. It would be just as dumb as having a sniper who shoots at a target surrounded by heavily armed troops from only 200 meters away when he could be and should be taking that shot well outside their maximum effective range. If I had a bow and arrow and a knife and the other guy only had a knife. I am going to use the bow and arrow from a distance... |
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Posted: 7/30/2012 4:07:10 PM EDT
[#4]
Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Why do you have to take every single motherfucking opportunity to bash anything American? And since when is telling the truth considered bashing? Your super-duper F-22 was evenly beat by a fighter that's 5 years older and 25% of the cost. That's not bashing, that's fucking fact. it's about even in a dog fight? so what? Every other aspect of fighter combat, the F-22 kicks the shit out of the Eurofighter. Good luck trying to close with an F-22 when he sees you 30 or 40 miles out, and already has a missile flying up your ass even before your radar sees the F-22 A little less: "America, fuck yeah", and a little more reality based on the facts in the article, next time. KTHX. |
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Posted: 7/30/2012 4:08:08 PM EDT
[#5]
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Fucking rights. Both the F-22 and F-35 are fucking dogs. Oh yeah how did they match up against the Canadian fighter?? Oh wait whats the name of it again? You know the one the Canadians make?? Please some one tell me I cant remember.. |
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Posted: 7/30/2012 4:09:21 PM EDT
[#6]
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Why do you have to take every single motherfucking opportunity to bash anything American? And since when is telling the truth considered bashing? Your super-duper F-22 was evenly beat by a fighter that's 5 years older and 25% of the cost. That's not bashing, that's fucking fact. it's about even in a dog fight? so what? Every other aspect of fighter combat, the F-22 kicks the shit out of the Eurofighter. Good luck trying to close with an F-22 when he sees you 30 or 40 miles out, and already has a missile flying up your ass even before your radar sees the F-22 A little less: "America, fuck yeah", and a little more reality based on the facts in the article, next time. KTHX. Or the facts based on actual experience... |
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Posted: 7/30/2012 4:09:24 PM EDT
[#7]
I would like to see the actual mission parameters with this exorcise! A few years ago the Indians claimed great things against our Air Force. But what was not included in the boasting fest, we're the mission parameters had our guys at a disadvantage. Not to mention half the pilots were either new right out of flight school, or air guard pilots who had less training per year. And supposedly all the Indian pilots were the best of best in the IAF. There are always two sides to every story. And whoever said the F22 made close in dogfighting obsolete was right on the money! BVR is where the F22 shines!
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Posted: 7/30/2012 4:10:08 PM EDT
[#8]
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<snip> Out of interest, did you know that the Welsh invented the invented the longbow, and it was the English that developed it strategic value and deployed it? And the skeletons of longbowmen can be identified by the massive increase in upper body bone mass to support the muscular structure needed to operate the weapon? Those guys were built like Gorillas. Interesting. I did not know that. Actually I did know. The longbowmen were at a major.disadvantage due to no real armor. They were however, also armed with axes, mallets, and other weapons, and most were pretty good. They weren't noblemen though, and their training in those arms was lacking, compared to a knight. They normally couldn't afford a good sword either. Also they were in a bad spot if they lost, as they were generally executed, since they are:'t worth a ransom. Back to our discussion though, our F22, while specialized un the same sort of role as a long ow( really a longbow sniper), is not lacking once cornered, and is just as effective as a noble knight. So closing is still not as advantageous. You will still need equal skill, luck, and numbers just to maintain a 1/1 kill ratio, against the best, most well trained, combat experienced fighter pilots in the world. |
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Posted: 7/30/2012 4:10:27 PM EDT
[#9]
Sure glad the Germans figured it out. They are a peace loving lot arent they?
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Posted: 7/30/2012 4:10:58 PM EDT
[#10]
Quoted: Quoted: Fucking rights. Both the F-22 and F-35 are fucking dogs. How are those Spads working out for Canada? I don't think of Canada when I think of highly complex war machines, I think more beaver pelt armor and wooden trebuchet technology.  What is it with you people that you can't ever seem to take fundamental criticism? |
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Posted: 7/30/2012 4:12:43 PM EDT
[#11]
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I have a buddy who is a Navy Hornet pilot who has a HUD shot of him killing an F-22. He said it was misleading as the F-22 was forced into the fight. He said most of the time the F-22 stayed at their high altitude perch and only engaged when it was in the F-22s favor. He said the F-22 won every time until they put restrictions on the F-22 to come down and play not on thier terms. In other words when you force an aircraft to play on equal terms sometimes the other aircraft will win as in the case with my buddy. Ryan If its real combat piss on the fair fight. I would sit there and own your ass on my terms. Some thing tells me my commander would not order me to come down to your buddies level and play fair. Thus die and sacrifice his precious aircraft. |
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Posted: 7/30/2012 4:12:52 PM EDT
[#12]
Best way to beat a man in a foxhole with a machine gun using only a knife is to get into his foxhole and stab him. Getting into the foxhole without getting shot is the hard part.
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Posted: 7/30/2012 4:13:33 PM EDT
[#13]
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I would like to see the actual mission parameters with this exorcise! A few years ago the Indians claimed great things against our Air Force. But what was not included in the boasting fest, we're the mission parameters had our guys at a disadvantage. This! Quoted:Not to mention half the pilots were either new right out of flight school, or air guard pilots who had less training per year.
Our Guard bros are usually some of the most experienced dudes out there. Think about it, they fly the same jet their whole career, or are dudes who were AD and got out and took their experience with them. The old days of the Guard being a bunch of weekend warriors, is no longer the case. |
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Posted: 7/30/2012 4:13:46 PM EDT
[#14]
So...I'm assuming these non-Americans would rather have the euro-fighter over the F22?
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Posted: 7/30/2012 4:13:58 PM EDT
[#15]
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Fucking rights. Both the F-22 and F-35 are fucking dogs. How are those Spads working out for Canada? I don't think of Canada when I think of highly complex war machines, I think more beaver pelt armor and wooden trebuchet technology.
What is it with you people that you can't ever seem to take fundamental criticism? At least we learned long ago not to boil our 1911s. 
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Posted: 7/30/2012 4:14:06 PM EDT
[#16]
Stay BVR and stay frosty. |
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Posted: 7/30/2012 4:15:04 PM EDT
[#17]
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Not to downplay the accomplishment, but won't the Eurofighter need to find the f22 first? Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Yep. Tactic mentioned is common sense. Any bets on how fast we develop a counter-strategy? I am pretty sure these mock dogfights start at a common rendezvous point. That's not how a real shooting war works. So why the fancy schmancy school at Miramar? Dogfights occur - history should tell you that, mate. Even in modern conflicts.  LOL, not for the magical F-22. It's been regulated to air show and college football game fly-by duty ever since it's been introduced. Why do you have to take every single motherfucking opportunity to bash anything American? He bashes everyone in equal measure. TargetTarget is an equal opportunities basher 
So he's mutually hated. Got it. Grin, you had a chance to end all this so I don't think you should be complaining... I know. Fuck me, for showing mercy. I need to stop being such a nice guy. I'm in a foul mood tonight and the last thing I wanted to see was a Canadian bashing America on grounds he has -2000% merit to bash on. Canada uses a variation of the M16, F/A-18, M4, and several other US designs of aircraft and small arms. Why isn't he bashing his own country's shit? He is. Canada is actually part of the US.. They all live closer to the US than Pourto Rico.. Just they speak the funny english and pack all our shit.
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Posted: 7/30/2012 4:16:47 PM EDT
[#18]
I'm sure some US pilots can talk about times they were in war games against South Korea, Taiwan, Egypt or the Turks and were told to go half speed because they didn't want our friends to lose face. I've had pilots come back half pissed because they had to hold back. I bet even the Army and Navy been put in a position like that. It's just feel good shit for those who are not us!
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Posted: 7/30/2012 4:18:39 PM EDT
[#19]
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So...I'm assuming these non-Americans would rather have the euro-fighter over the F22? Well, they don't have a choice, because export of the F-22 is prohibited by Act of Congress. They point to the expense difference between the F-22 and Eurofighter, but the Eurofighter is all about export. Whereas, the F-22 has been built in limited quantity for one single nation. It seems the author of the article lacks an understanding of basic economic concepts like economy of scale. |
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Posted: 7/30/2012 4:18:51 PM EDT
[#20]
From what I always heard from the F-15E pilots that I have spoken with, the F22 doesn't have much over the latest generation 15's. A little longer range capabilities and that's about it.
Of course, they could have just been jealous their weren't flying the Raptor. But I got to watch them flying around together so regularly that it got annoying. Never seemed like the 15's couldn't keep up in formations and engagement scenarios. I just love the 'howling' sound that the 22's make from their intake. |
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Posted: 7/30/2012 4:20:21 PM EDT
[#21]
Quoted: I'm sure some US pilots can talk about times they were in war games against South Korea, Taiwan, Egypt or the Turks and were told to go half speed because they didn't want our friends to lose face. I've had pilots come back half pissed because they had to hold back. I bet even the Army and Navy been put in a position like that. It's just feel good shit for those who are not us! More excuses. Not only are you assuming that someone was holding back, but you give the benefit of doubt to your own side.  |
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Posted: 7/30/2012 4:22:10 PM EDT
[#22]
First off, this whole thread is predicated on an article posted on Wired.
This is like getting riled up over Nancy Pelosi's AR-15 Cleaning Tips as published by Mother Jones. And then you have ... Quoted:
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Why do you have to take every single motherfucking opportunity to bash anything American? And since when is telling the truth considered bashing? Your super-duper F-22 was evenly beat by a fighter that's 5 years older and 25% of the cost. That's not bashing, that's fucking fact. The reported purchase price of a Eurofighter is in the neighborhood of 90M Euros. Without looking at today's exchange rate, that's something like 110M USD. The purchase price of the F-22 during the middle of its production run was 125M to 130M. Your "fucking facts" are a bit off the mark. If I'm off the mark about the purchase price of a Typhoon, then so be it; just ignore my numbers; I'm not that familiar with the platform. |
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Posted: 7/30/2012 4:22:18 PM EDT
[#23]
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Why do you have to take every single motherfucking opportunity to bash anything American? And since when is telling the truth considered ba Your super-duper F-22 was evenly beat by a fighter that's 5 years older and 25% of the cost. That's not bashing, that's fucking fact. Couldn't one make a case that some level of mis-information may be at play in that exercise and by extension that article? It |
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Posted: 7/30/2012 4:25:51 PM EDT
[#24]
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Stay BVR and stay frosty. Yep. Due to it's enormous performance advantage over everything (cruise @ mach1.7, fly @ 70,000+ feet, stealth), the F22 will almost always dictate the terms of an engagment. Empty missile bays and fuck off....fast. Next F22 takes place. Repeat as needed. In simple terms the F22 is some Travis Haley on the roof-top-shit......(insert America fuck yeah picture below). |
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Posted: 7/30/2012 4:28:13 PM EDT
[#25]
OOhh Ohh whats the name of that Canadian weapons system again?? At least my British brothers can name quite a a few of their succesfully fielded and combat proven systems.
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Posted: 7/30/2012 4:29:34 PM EDT
[#26]
Come on Targettarget!! Oh and its not the one on your avatar. Even thats a borrowed design.
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Posted: 7/30/2012 4:29:53 PM EDT
[#27]
Quoted: Quoted: I'm sure some US pilots can talk about times they were in war games against South Korea, Taiwan, Egypt or the Turks and were told to go half speed because they didn't want our friends to lose face. I've had pilots come back half pissed because they had to hold back. I bet even the Army and Navy been put in a position like that. It's just feel good shit for those who are not us! More excuses. Not only are you assuming that someone was holding back, but you give the benefit of doubt to your own side. Assuming you could make the F-22 and Typhoon for the same price. Which one would you buy? |
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Posted: 7/30/2012 4:30:58 PM EDT
[#28]
Ya you are right, you really put me in my place. By the way how's all those F-18's doing for you, do you guys still fly F-5s? You guys got a lot of good service from those F-101's back in the day.
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Posted: 7/30/2012 4:31:48 PM EDT
[#29]
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I'm sure some US pilots can talk about times they were in war games against South Korea, Taiwan, Egypt or the Turks and were told to go half speed because they didn't want our friends to lose face. I've had pilots come back half pissed because they had to hold back. I bet even the Army and Navy been put in a position like that. It's just feel good shit for those who are not us! More excuses. Not only are you assuming that someone was holding back, but you give the benefit of doubt to your own side.
Assuming you could make the F-22 and Typhoon for the same price. Which one would you buy? F-22 for US cockpit design, fuselage shape, stealth, internal weapons bay, speed, max altitude, etc. etc. |
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Posted: 7/30/2012 4:33:21 PM EDT
[#30]
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Come on Targettarget!! Oh and its not the one on your avatar. Even thats a borrowed design. ...and is the biggest dog out there! |
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Posted: 7/30/2012 4:34:14 PM EDT
[#31]
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Fucking rights. Both the F-22 and F-35 are fucking dogs. Only when compared to indigenous designed and manufactured front line fighter aircraft coming out of Canada these days.............oh wait. 
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Posted: 7/30/2012 4:38:23 PM EDT
[#32]
Sadly, in the near future stealth will be a moot point.
Modern radar does much more than 'just radar' nowadays.
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Posted: 7/30/2012 4:40:28 PM EDT
[#33]
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Sadly, in the near future stealth will be a moot point. Modern radar does much more than 'just radar' nowadays. 
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Posted: 7/30/2012 4:41:14 PM EDT
[#34]
Quoted: pfft!!! What does that matter? F-22 isn't going to let you get in close enough for a gun fight. He's going to take you out well before he's in your visual range or visible on your radar.  Not necessarily.  |
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Posted: 7/30/2012 4:41:33 PM EDT
[#35]
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I'm sure some US pilots can talk about times they were in war games against South Korea, Taiwan, Egypt or the Turks and were told to go half speed because they didn't want our friends to lose face. I've had pilots come back half pissed because they had to hold back. I bet even the Army and Navy been put in a position like that. It's just feel good shit for those who are not us! More excuses. Not only are you assuming that someone was holding back, but you give the benefit of doubt to your own side.
I worked on the F22 for years and took plenty of trips to watch them dogfight. The only times they ever got killed was when the scenario called for them to not engage until a certian distance, it's called holding back, because if they don't they wouldn't be able to pratice/test certian situations. So yes, I can tell you FACT not ASSUMPTION that they do hold back when playing war games. The F22 is a rifle, every other fighter on earth is a handgun. At handgun range sure they may be equal or a slight edge to the handgun. But it's the guy with the rifles job to not let the guy with the handgun get in range. |
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Posted: 7/30/2012 4:41:35 PM EDT
[#36]
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Well that seems obvious to me. Is not the design of the F-22 to shoot down targets from afar, before they are picked up on radar? Getting close enough (visual range) engaging in a dogfight and firing off a heat seeker or guns seems like the logical way for a conventional fighter to defeat the F-22. But in real engagements the ROE might not allow for BVR fighting. That would never happen. The leadership in DC and the Pentagon is far too wise to put troops in harms way like that. |
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Posted: 7/30/2012 4:41:56 PM EDT
[#37]
Quoted: these playing around dog fights are just fighter pilot ego management. real war means BVR. WVR is a chance to play, which means its all they do. uhh.. didnt we lose a LOT of pilots because of that thinking once before? |
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Posted: 7/30/2012 4:42:35 PM EDT
[#38]
Quoted: First off, this whole thread is predicated on an article posted on Wired. This is like getting riled up over Nancy Pelosi's AR-15 Cleaning Tips as published by Mother Jones. And then you have ... Quoted: Quoted: Why do you have to take every single motherfucking opportunity to bash anything American? And since when is telling the truth considered bashing? Your super-duper F-22 was evenly beat by a fighter that's 5 years older and 25% of the cost. That's not bashing, that's fucking fact. The reported purchase price of a Eurofighter is in the neighborhood of 90M Euros. Without looking at today's exchange rate, that's something like 110M USD. The purchase price of the F-22 during the middle of its production run was 125M to 130M. Your "fucking facts" are a bit off the mark. If I'm off the mark about the purchase price of a Typhoon, then so be it; just ignore my numbers; I'm not that familiar with the platform. The only relevant figures would be the production cost during a full production run with equivalent economies of scale. If you factor in R&D costs the F-22 is going to be much more expensive, but those costs have already been sunk. |
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Posted: 7/30/2012 4:43:34 PM EDT
[#39]
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Sadly, in the near future stealth will be a moot point. Modern radar does much more than 'just radar' nowadays. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LIDAR |
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Posted: 7/30/2012 4:45:46 PM EDT
[#40]
No we didnt lose them so to speak they sacrificed their lives for our freedom. The Germans had us outgunned technology wise so we beat them with numbers until us and the allies (read Brits) caught up technolgy wise. It was a lesson learned and one we espounded on no thanks to some of our allies who simply rode the free wave. Not naming any names here of course and assuming your talking about WW2.
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Posted: 7/30/2012 4:46:03 PM EDT
[#41]
This isn't about Canada.
Oh man you guys are touchy.
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Posted: 7/30/2012 4:47:22 PM EDT
[#42]
Quoted: The Eurofighter has canards and a delta wing. It should be very maneuverable, but those canards and all the hardpoints on that aircraft also make it show up more on radar. Good luck to the Eurofighter finding the F-22. In any air-to-air engagement between air superiority fighters much depends on more than just the absolute flight characteristics of the planes. The entire combat system including the radar, the EW suite, the decoy system and the capabilities of the weapons all play a role. It is great to say that the Raptor can see and engage well beyond visual range and before the enemy can see it, but if the enemy's EW suite can fox the Fox, then it's game on in the furball. Then it's who is most maneuverable and has the best helmet-missile combination. It's all a tradeoff. Stealth gives us an edge...but not an insurmountable one. We must always keep trying to do better. |
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Posted: 7/30/2012 4:49:25 PM EDT
[#43]
Be interested to see a knife fight between an F-18E and a Typhoon.
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Posted: 7/30/2012 4:50:05 PM EDT
[#44]
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No we didnt lose them so to speak they sacrificed their lives for our freedom. The Germans had us outgunned technology wise so we beat them with numbers until us and the allies (read Brits) caught up technolgy wise. It was a lesson learned and one we espounded on no thanks to some of our allies who simply rode the free wave. Not naming any names here of course and assuming your talking about WW2. I think he was referring to Vietnam. With the advent of the missile, all the top brass, thought that Dogfighting was out dated. They even went as far as to outlaw it. Dudes, had to do it illegally, with fear of losing their wings. They also, built the F-4 with out a gun! Our boys suffered dearly as a result of this policy. They quickly hung a gun on the F-4, then put them back in on future models. We lesson our lesson...the hard way! A fighter without a gun...is like a plane without a wing
Robin Olds |
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Posted: 7/30/2012 4:51:02 PM EDT
[#45]
Quoted: Quoted: Sadly, in the near future stealth will be a moot point. Modern radar does much more than 'just radar' nowadays. Sorry, let me rephrase that. In a future war between nations 'Stealth' in the classic sense (low RCS) will be a moot point. |
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Posted: 7/30/2012 4:51:05 PM EDT
[#46]
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Quoted:The person way above your pay grade making that call is a fighter pilot. This may come as a shock, but I am not sure I trust him to make the smart call.
Hey now, we ain't all that bad! Again, I don't get to make that call...we are all merely pawns in the fight. If they decide that the point we are defending is worth more than our lives...well, we all signed on the dotted line. the willingness of the AF to kill its airmen to protect its doctrine was proven by the 8th AF. I have never doubted it. I just disagree with it. |
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Posted: 7/30/2012 4:54:27 PM EDT
[#47]
Quoted: Quoted: Quoted:The person way above your pay grade making that call is a fighter pilot. This may come as a shock, but I am not sure I trust him to make the smart call. Hey now, we ain't all that bad! Again, I don't get to make that call...we are all merely pawns in the fight. If they decide that the point we are defending is worth more than our lives...well, we all signed on the dotted line. the willingness of the AF to kill its airmen to protect its doctrine was proven by the 8th AF. I have never doubted it. I just disagree with it. Interesting, from my vantage point, I've always thought the Air Force has been TOO cautious with it's pilots and treats them as non-expendable. But I definitely not "informed" or "expert" on these things. Just kind of what I thought I perceived. |
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Posted: 7/30/2012 4:54:37 PM EDT
[#48]
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Sadly, in the near future stealth will be a moot point. Modern radar does much more than 'just radar' nowadays. yeah. stealth is nice, but it isn't a magic talisman anymore. standoff is where its at. good article in JFQ 2 years ago on that very subject. but without stealth, you can't justify the f35, so we will develop a doctrine to defend a dogma that you can only hope won't ever be exposed in real warfare. |
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Posted: 7/30/2012 4:55:46 PM EDT
[#49]
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Sadly, in the near future stealth will be a moot point. Modern radar does much more than 'just radar' nowadays. yeah. stealth is nice, but it isn't a magic talisman anymore. standoff is where its at. good article in JFQ 2 years ago on that very subject. but without stealth, you can't justify the f35, so we will develop a doctrine to defend a dogma that you can only hope won't ever be exposed in real warfare. do you have a newsletter yet? |
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Posted: 7/30/2012 4:56:51 PM EDT
[#50]
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Quoted:The person way above your pay grade making that call is a fighter pilot. This may come as a shock, but I am not sure I trust him to make the smart call.
Hey now, we ain't all that bad! Again, I don't get to make that call...we are all merely pawns in the fight. If they decide that the point we are defending is worth more than our lives...well, we all signed on the dotted line. the willingness of the AF to kill its airmen to protect its doctrine was proven by the 8th AF. I have never doubted it. I just disagree with it. If you're referring to WWII...that was the ARMY Air Corps . Oh and fighter pilots didn't run the air war, its was the bomber guys....
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