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Posted: 7/9/2012 10:28:10 AM EDT
[#1]
That is pretty impressive. I had no idea that you could such a drastic improvement with one brand buckshot over another.
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Posted: 7/9/2012 10:37:43 AM EDT
[#2]
Once again O_P, you do the homework!
 Thanks for a cool write up.
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Posted: 7/9/2012 10:40:34 AM EDT
[#3]
Quoted:
That is pretty impressive. I had no idea that you could such a drastic improvement with one brand buckshot over another. Absolutely. And even without the Flight Control Wad, different loads shoot differently. Brand is more important than shotgun choke. 
Chokes and Buckshot Part One Chokes and Buckshot Part Two |
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Posted: 7/9/2012 10:42:31 AM EDT
[#4]
Superlative job, sir.
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Posted: 7/9/2012 10:43:15 AM EDT
[#5]
Quoted:
Great job PROOF that an individual CAN make a difference - if only more ammo makers were as receptive to such suggestions based on actual test data not just what the marketing dept/company lawyers say that they should be making!! Positively NOT taking anything away from O_P or his efforts, but there were a few individuals doing what they could to convince ATK that #1 in an FC wad was a good idea. As a side note, anyone know if the Federal wads are sold for home loaders (as I'm gueesing that there will be close to zero chance of this ammo hitting the UK anytime soon!! - be good to roll something similar for the shotgun comps I attend that have buckshot stages...)
There isn't, but a local 06 and I developed a 12-pellet load of #1 that performed admirably with OTS components while we were waiting for this. I'll see if I can get him to shoot you an IM, but they key ingredient seemed to be hardened/plated shot. ETA: Thank you for the updates on this Old_Painless! |
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Posted: 7/9/2012 10:50:13 AM EDT
[#6]
Quoted:
Once again O_P, you do the homework! Thanks for a cool write up. Thanks. 
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Posted: 7/9/2012 10:51:36 AM EDT
[#7]
Excellent review!
Now where do I get some? |
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Posted: 7/9/2012 10:52:27 AM EDT
[#8]
I can feel my wallet emptying... It's all your fault, O_P!!
Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Posted: 7/9/2012 11:05:10 AM EDT
[#9]
Great write-up O_P. Always enjoy them. Believe it or not, I have worked up some 00 Buck loads that pattern inside a single .729" hole at 100 yds. I pretty much guarantee you won't like them though, even though they have worked really well so far. BTW- they are not shells that are cut almost in half before firing. I'll bet you already know what they are too!
ETA- I'm tagging this thread so I don't miss any blows in the beatdown I know I've got coming! |
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Posted: 7/9/2012 11:12:49 AM EDT
[#10]
When I find some, i'll grab it.
Thanks for the review! |
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Posted: 7/9/2012 11:22:06 AM EDT
[#11]
One small thing:
9 pellets at 50 grains each is.....450 grains, not 495. So the 9-pellet OO load actually has a smaller payload than the (15x33 = 495) #1 load. When I got your email on my phone this morning I read one word of the title and KNEW what this thread would be, and was excited and couldn't wait to come home for lunch and read it. This is awesome news - and the patterns in your test targets are unbelieveable! I'll have to order some of this and use up the remaning stash of hornady or whatever my old low-recoil buckshot it. |
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Posted: 7/9/2012 11:25:35 AM EDT
[#12]
10 more gone, 45 left
http://www.kylesgunshop.com/store.php?seller=KylesGunshop&navt1=56716&pd=4733312 |
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Posted: 7/9/2012 11:29:47 AM EDT
[#13]
Quoted:
One small thing: 9 pellets at 50 grains each is.....450 grains, not 495. So the 9-pellet OO load actually has a smaller payload than the (15x33 = 495) #1 load. When I got your email on my phone this morning I read one word of the title and KNEW what this thread would be, and was excited and couldn't wait to come home for lunch and read it. This is awesome news - and the patterns in your test targets are unbelieveable! I'll have to order some of this and use up the remaning stash of hornady or whatever my old low-recoil buckshot it. Wikipedia lists 00 as 53.8gr and #1 as 40.5gr. It's kind of weird to me that the copper coating saves that much weight. In fact, after looking at it closer, #1 is supposed to be 30 caliber. Looks like these are somewhere between #1 and #2 buck in size and weight. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead_shot |
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Posted: 7/9/2012 11:33:46 AM EDT
[#14]
That is some tight patterning! My Winchester 1300 Defender patterns looser than I like so I will certainly give these Federal #1 loads a try as soon as they become available. |
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Posted: 7/9/2012 11:41:50 AM EDT
[#15]
Awesome review O_P
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Posted: 7/9/2012 11:48:48 AM EDT
[#16]
Quoted:
10 more gone, 35 left http://www.kylesgunshop.com/store.php?seller=KylesGunshop&navt1=56716&pd=4733312 
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Posted: 7/9/2012 12:50:57 PM EDT
[#17]
Quoted:
Superlative job, sir. Many thanks.
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Posted: 7/9/2012 12:52:47 PM EDT
[#18]
Quoted:
One small thing: 9 pellets at 50 grains each is.....450 grains, not 495. So the 9-pellet OO load actually has a smaller payload than the (15x33 = 495) #1 load. Corrected. Thanks.
When I got your email on my phone this morning I read one word of the title and KNEW what this thread would be, and was excited and couldn't wait to come home for lunch and read it. This is awesome news - and the patterns in your test targets are unbelieveable!
I'll have to order some of this and use up the remaning stash of hornady or whatever my old low-recoil buckshot it. It is great stuff. I am impressed and very happy that they are making this load.
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Posted: 7/9/2012 12:53:46 PM EDT
[#19]
Any chance of getting a test of Federal Flight control 00 Buck vs. Hornady Critical Defense 00 Buck with their VersaTite wad? I can't get the Federal load locally but one shop has the Hornady load. Be nice if Hornady could stack up, then step up and do a #1 load as well. Then we could get the market to even compete a bit on good #1 buck loads.
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Posted: 7/9/2012 12:56:19 PM EDT
[#20]
Quoted:
It is great stuff. I am impressed and very happy that they are making this load.
Well, we got a Keith load from Elmer Keith... Seems to me Federal should be able to sell the hell out of a Painless shotgun round.
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Posted: 7/9/2012 12:56:55 PM EDT
[#21]
Quoted:
Any chance of getting a test of Federal Flight control 00 Buck vs. Hornady Critical Defense 00 Buck with their VersaTite wad? I can't get the Federal load locally but one shop has the Hornady load. Be nice if Hornady could stack up, then step up and do a #1 load as well. Then we could get the market to even compete a bit on good #1 buck loads. I haven't tested the Hornady load, but would be willing to do so. Do you know anyone at Hornady?
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Posted: 7/9/2012 12:57:46 PM EDT
[#22]
Quoted:
Quoted:
One small thing: 9 pellets at 50 grains each is.....450 grains, not 495. So the 9-pellet OO load actually has a smaller payload than the (15x33 = 495) #1 load. Corrected. Thanks.
When I got your email on my phone this morning I read one word of the title and KNEW what this thread would be, and was excited and couldn't wait to come home for lunch and read it. This is awesome news - and the patterns in your test targets are unbelieveable!
I'll have to order some of this and use up the remaning stash of hornady or whatever my old low-recoil buckshot it. It is great stuff. I am impressed and very happy that they are making this load.
Just curious, how does #4 buck perform in penetration tests? I used to see it highly recommended for apartment dwellers and the like, but don't hear much about it anymore. |
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Posted: 7/9/2012 1:00:52 PM EDT
[#23]
Quoted:
Just curious, how does #4 buck perform in penetration tests? I used to see it highly recommended for apartment dwellers and the like, but don't hear much about it anymore. Simply.....#4 buckshot will "sometimes" fail to make the FBI minimum penetration standard. Therefore, I do not recommend #4 buckshot. There are better loads available, especially with this new #1 Buckshot load from Federal.
Get some Federal #1 Buckshot. It is the best available load. |
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Posted: 7/9/2012 1:02:45 PM EDT
[#24]
Do they make a "standard velocity", (not "low-recoil") load? I hate giving up the extra power.
ETA: I keep my Mossberg loaded with Federal Magnum #1 Buck. I haven't been able to find this for years, and I'm literally down to my last ten rounds. |
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Posted: 7/9/2012 1:04:11 PM EDT
[#25]
Outstanding.
We should be getting some in this state sometime in 2020. 
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Posted: 7/9/2012 1:06:06 PM EDT
[#26]
We need some of this available at Walmart.
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Posted: 7/9/2012 1:06:30 PM EDT
[#27]
Quoted:
Do they make a "standard velocity", (not "low-recoil") load? I hate giving up the extra power. The extra "power" doesn't add anything of benefit - it just adds recoil. No additional wounding ability. So unless you have a semiauto that requires really hot loads to function, there's no point. |
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Posted: 7/9/2012 1:08:57 PM EDT
[#28]
Quoted: Quoted: Do they make a "standard velocity", (not "low-recoil") load? I hate giving up the extra power. The extra "power" doesn't add anything of benefit - it just adds recoil. No additional wounding ability. So unless you have a semiauto that requires really hot loads to function, there's no point. At point blank, I agree. At extended ranges, maybe not. ETA: Take a look at O-P's test. He's shooting out to 35 yards. If those round balls start off at 1100 fps, they might not have the oomph to reliably penetrate at that range. Round balls shed velocity FAST. |
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Posted: 7/9/2012 1:09:28 PM EDT
[#29]
One of my uncles deer hunted with buckshot for 30+ years and tried every load he could get his hands on. He killed a LOT of deer and his favorite load was #1 buck. He told me that it killed better than any 00 or 000 load.
Would you like to try patterning this stuff next? Once my 10ga double is back from the gunsmith (wood refinish and new recoil pad). 
Here is the 10ga, next to a Stoeger Coach Gun. 
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Posted: 7/9/2012 1:10:23 PM EDT
[#30]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Just curious, how does #4 buck perform in penetration tests? I used to see it highly recommended for apartment dwellers and the like, but don't hear much about it anymore. Simply.....#4 buckshot will "sometimes" fail to make the FBI minimum penetration standard. Therefore, I do not recommend #4 buckshot. There are better loads available, especially with this new #1 Buckshot load from Federal.
Get some Federal #1 Buckshot. It is the best available load. Thanks O-P, I'll have to try some out when I run across them. My shotgun doesn't always serve as my primary HD gun (I usually use one of my M-4's) and my "general purpose" shotgun load is 00, but this seems to be an excellent load for a dedicated HD or LE shotgun. BTW, still can't believe that nobody had hammered me over my one-hole, 100 yd buckshot load. I wasn't kidding. |
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Posted: 7/9/2012 1:24:14 PM EDT
[#31]
Is there anything special about the FCW load or could a person duplicate it with handloads? I assume the FC wad is available as a component.
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Posted: 7/9/2012 1:29:56 PM EDT
[#32]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Do they make a "standard velocity", (not "low-recoil") load? I hate giving up the extra power. The extra "power" doesn't add anything of benefit - it just adds recoil. No additional wounding ability. So unless you have a semiauto that requires really hot loads to function, there's no point. At point blank, I agree. At extended ranges, maybe not. ETA: Take a look at O-P's test. He's shooting out to 35 yards. If those round balls start off at 1100 fps, they might not have the oomph to reliably penetrate at that range. Round balls shed velocity FAST. That's a fair point. I don't know how much they lose in 35 yards, but they seem to do OK even after going through windshield glass (which I'd imagine slows them down quite a bit). |
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Posted: 7/9/2012 1:30:59 PM EDT
[#33]
Quoted:
Is there anything special about the FCW load or could a person duplicate it with handloads? I assume the FC wad is available as a component. I do not believe the FCW is avaliable as a component. I could be mistaken. |
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Posted: 7/9/2012 1:31:57 PM EDT
[#34]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Do they make a "standard velocity", (not "low-recoil") load? I hate giving up the extra power. The extra "power" doesn't add anything of benefit - it just adds recoil. No additional wounding ability. So unless you have a semiauto that requires really hot loads to function, there's no point. At point blank, I agree. At extended ranges, maybe not. ETA: Take a look at O-P's test. He's shooting out to 35 yards. If those round balls start off at 1100 fps, they might not have the oomph to reliably penetrate at that range. Round balls shed velocity FAST. And note that I am speaking of a "home defense load". Even 35 yards is out of reason for inside of most homes. |
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Posted: 7/9/2012 1:37:06 PM EDT
[#35]
That's an impressive load!
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Posted: 7/9/2012 1:39:35 PM EDT
[#36]
I'm confused as to what benefit this offers over 00.
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Posted: 7/9/2012 1:43:14 PM EDT
[#37]
Quoted:
I'm confused as to what benefit this offers over 00. From the first post. Here’s an explanation from the AR15.com, Best Choices for Self Defense Ammo: “Number 1 buck is the smallest diameter shot that reliably and consistently penetrates more than 12 inches of standard ordnance gelatin when fired at typical shotgun engagement distances. A standard 2 ¾-inch 12 gauge shotshell contains 15 pellets of #1 buck. The total combined cross sectional area of the 15 pellets is .964 square inches. Compared to the total combined cross sectional area of the nine pellets in a standard #00 (double-aught) buck shotshell (0.77 square inches), the # 1 buck shotshell has the capacity to produce over 20 percent more potentially effective wound trauma. In all shotshell loads, number 1 buckshot produces more potentially effective wound trauma than either #00 or #000 buck. In addition, number 1 buck is less likely to over-penetrate and exit an attacker's body.” Did you even read the post. 
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Posted: 7/9/2012 1:44:03 PM EDT
[#38]
Thanks OP, informative as always. |
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Posted: 7/9/2012 1:45:21 PM EDT
[#39]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Is there anything special about the FCW load or could a person duplicate it with handloads? I assume the FC wad is available as a component. I do not believe the FCW is avaliable as a component. I could be mistaken. I wish they were available, in 20-gauge, as components. I would LOVE to be able to load them into my 20-gauge muzzleloading shotgun for squirrels.
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Posted: 7/9/2012 1:53:50 PM EDT
[#40]
Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Do they make a "standard velocity", (not "low-recoil") load? I hate giving up the extra power. The extra "power" doesn't add anything of benefit - it just adds recoil. No additional wounding ability. So unless you have a semiauto that requires really hot loads to function, there's no point. At point blank, I agree. At extended ranges, maybe not. ETA: Take a look at O-P's test. He's shooting out to 35 yards. If those round balls start off at 1100 fps, they might not have the oomph to reliably penetrate at that range. Round balls shed velocity FAST. And note that I am speaking of a "home defense load". Even 35 yards is out of reason for inside of most homes. I have 23 acres, and the barn is 45 yards from the back door. Defending my home, family and pets, might include distances beyond "across the room", and not just for two-legged animals. I really like the idea that I wouldn't have to switch to slugs, past 25 yards, but not if the velocity / energy / penetration sucks. I guess we're really only talking about a 150 - 200 fps here, but recoil really doesn't bother me. Question for O-P: Does anyone have any velocity / penetration data at say, 25 yards, with the various buckshot loads, especially if they are starting off at the "low-recoil" velocities? (And yes, I have an AR15 too, for home defense. I like them both, but I'd have a tendancy to grab the shotgun first, because I LOVE shotguns.) |
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Posted: 7/9/2012 2:05:26 PM EDT
[#41]
I used the 9 shot 00 Buck with FCW. Federal Tactical Reduced Recoil gives about the same spread as you have there. I like
your write up and will be looking at the #1 Buck 15 shot. |
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Posted: 7/9/2012 2:10:11 PM EDT
[#42]
Quoted:
I have 23 acres, and the barn is 45 yards from the back door. Defending my home, family and pets, might include distances beyond "across the room", and not just for two-legged animals. I really like the idea that I wouldn't have to switch to slugs, past 25 yards, but not if the velocity / energy / penetration sucks. I guess we're really only talking about a 150 - 200 fps here, but recoil really doesn't bother me. Question for O-P: Does anyone have any velocity / penetration data at say, 25 yards, with the various buckshot loads, especially if they are starting off at the "low-recoil" velocities? Not that I know of. (And yes, I have an AR15 too, for home defense. I like them both, but I'd have a tendancy to grab the shotgun first, because I LOVE shotguns.)
And you beat me to it.
I am always hesitant to try to make a shotgun do a rifle's work. At those ranges, you need a rifle, not a shotgun, IMHO.
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Posted: 7/9/2012 2:15:57 PM EDT
[#43]
The Federal rep told me they did gelatin tests at distances to ensure they would meet the penetration standard. I don't remember what the distance was, either 25 or 50yd IIRC. Velocity loss doesn't reduce the penetration depth as much as you might think. Lower velocity = lower deformation = more penetration, so it tends to be a self compensating system until velocity drops off a lot.
He also described the gelatin tests as "impressive". O_P, I'm pretty sure that one year at SHOT we ended up talking to the same person about this proposed load. He started off with "I've heard this idea before...."  I think we wore them down... although from what I understand, some large CA law enforcement agency had also asked for essentially the same load. It seemed like we did a better job of explaining the rationale behind it than the agency request they got. However it happened, it's happened
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Posted: 7/9/2012 2:26:59 PM EDT
[#44]
Quoted:
O_P, I'm pretty sure that one year at SHOT we ended up talking to the same person about this proposed load. He started off with "I've heard this idea before...." I think we wore them down... although from what I understand, some large CA law enforcement agency had also asked for essentially the same load. It seemed like we did a better job of explaining the rationale behind it than the agency request they got. However it happened, it's happened However it happened, I'm glad it happened.
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Posted: 7/9/2012 2:40:43 PM EDT
[#45]
Quoted: Quoted: I have 23 acres, and the barn is 45 yards from the back door. Defending my home, family and pets, might include distances beyond "across the room", and not just for two-legged animals. I really like the idea that I wouldn't have to switch to slugs, past 25 yards, but not if the velocity / energy / penetration sucks. I guess we're really only talking about a 150 - 200 fps here, but recoil really doesn't bother me. Question for O-P: Does anyone have any velocity / penetration data at say, 25 yards, with the various buckshot loads, especially if they are starting off at the "low-recoil" velocities? Not that I know of. (And yes, I have an AR15 too, for home defense. I like them both, but I'd have a tendancy to grab the shotgun first, because I LOVE shotguns.) And you beat me to it. I am always hesitant to try to make a shotgun do a rifle's work. At those ranges, you need a rifle, not a shotgun, IMHO. This is Ohio, where deer hunting means using shotguns as a rifle (with slugs). Our tactical shotgun matches frequently have 100 yard slug shots. I keep my shotgun loaded with 9 buckshot and 6 slugs in the sidesaddle, for longer range / more precision shooting. It would be nice to confidently extend the range with the buckshot though. |
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Posted: 7/9/2012 2:59:00 PM EDT
[#46]
My Department transitioned to the Federal Flite Control 00 Buck load a little over 2 years ago.
Using a standard 870 Police Magnum (4 round capacity, bead front sight) I've been able to keep all nine pellets in between the shoulders of a standard B29 target at 50 yards. Its not hard to do with this stuff. I can only imagine that the #1 Buck will perform better. |
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Posted: 7/9/2012 3:05:24 PM EDT
[#47]
Just bought 50rd today, added to 50rd of the Federal TruBall DPRS slugs (1300+fps) yesterday. I have always been a #000 kinda guy but this load makes me want to do some testing.
Thanks OP! |
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Posted: 7/9/2012 3:10:28 PM EDT
[#48]
Looks like my 870 is going to get a new standard load. Thanks for the info and getting this to market, O_P.
One question, why copper plated shot? Does it offer any real advantage over lead shot or is it more for customer appeal? |
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Posted: 7/9/2012 3:11:20 PM EDT
[#49]
That is some super cool stuff, OP.
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Posted: 7/9/2012 3:16:42 PM EDT
[#50]
Sweet, thanks for the review, I will look for it next time I am at the store.
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