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Posted: 6/28/2012 12:13:57 PM
The point of such a therapy wouldn't be to replace breathing, but to buy some time to put the patient on bypass or get someone competent in cutting the neck. I would love to have it in my toolbox.
It would buy you several minutes in which to address the underlying problem. The elevated CO2 is almost a non-issue next to the hypoxia. Sure, you'll need to correct it soon, but it can wait a little longer than the brain can go without oxygen. |
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Maine_11B_to_Nurse
Some days only a badge away from psych inpatient
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Posted: 6/28/2012 12:22:02 PM
Originally Posted By SARS:
The point of such a therapy wouldn't be to replace breathing, but to buy some time to put the patient on bypass or get someone competent in cutting the neck. I would love to have it in my toolbox. It would buy you several minutes in which to address the underlying problem. The elevated CO2 is almost a non-issue next to the hypoxia. Sure, you'll need to correct it soon, but it can wait a little longer than the brain can go without oxygen. Yeah, from a medical procedure point of view, I could see this being amazing if it works on humans well. Quite a few uses, I'd imagine. EMS would love it for certain things I'd think. |
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Justa_TXguy
half-seller of ducks
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Posted: 6/28/2012 12:33:06 PM
Originally Posted By HullBreach:
Originally Posted By Justa_TXguy:
Originally Posted By iggy1337:
Co2 buildup ? My thought as well. CO2 narcosis is real. Yep. I don't think people realize that evacuating CO2 is just as important as getting oxygen in to the body. I had a coversation with one of our Pilots when I was still in the Corps about the idea of using surgical implants to modify aircrew to put their brain on a sort of seperate 'circuit' from the rest of the body, with its own independant pump and lung analog (for oxegenation & CO2 elimination). He thought I was nuts until I pointed out that if it was properly integrated into a flight suit, it could probably triple the G-load they could handle. The only barrier is coming up with a way to have a transdermal connector that isn't a vector for infections. Google ECMO. |
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Posted: 6/28/2012 12:37:36 PM
Originally Posted By FreeFloater:
Does the body recognize that oxygen levels are OK and resist the urge to breath in? Can you go 15 without breathing assuming the body notices that there's ample oxygen...or does the breathing reflex just kick in after some time unless consciously suppressed? It is not the need for oxygen that causes the urge to breathe, or the respiratory drive... It is the BUILDUP OF C02 that causes it. As stated by others... The procedure described in the OP would only be usefull in medical situations. It is not a substitute for respiration, it is only a substitute for OXYGEN. You could not inject yourself with this, and expect to swim underwater without breathing. The act of swimming, itself would create lactic acid in the muscles, and C02 would build up...Those waste products must be exhaled. |
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WinstonSmith
Taxidea Taxus
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Posted: 6/28/2012 12:38:05 PM
Originally Posted By marcushire:
I wonder what that feels like (assuming you are healthy and all) to not have to inhale or exhale. I wonder if the presence of sufficient oxygenated blood would suppress breathing. It's not consciously controlled until it is. And you are now breathing manually. Yes you are.  |
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TailHunter
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Posted: 6/28/2012 1:54:44 PM
Too much O2 at depth (Oxygen toxicity) can cause a CNS hit and your body would go into seizures then turn off like a light switch.
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jeremyt
roadkilled kittens make me smile
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Posted: 6/28/2012 2:03:09 PM
Originally Posted By marcushire: I wonder what that feels like (assuming you are healthy and all) to not have to inhale or exhale. Did anyone else take a deep breath after reading this?  |
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txcop893
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Posted: 6/28/2012 2:23:38 PM
[Last Edit: 6/28/2012 2:24:33 PM by txcop893]
Originally Posted By Rattlehead502:
The problem is CO2 needs to be exchanged as well. Find a way to remove that through injection, and you're on to something... Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Sodium bicarb will remove the CO2 from the blood. Damn it....should read on. |
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Posted: 6/28/2012 2:36:22 PM
You automatic body functions like breathing wouldnt stop. You brain doesnt know how to turn that off so I would think you would still breath even if you didnt need to. Also would be interesting to see how long you could hold your breath.
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Posted: 6/28/2012 2:36:46 PM
Originally Posted By txcop893:
Originally Posted By Rattlehead502:
The problem is CO2 needs to be exchanged as well. Find a way to remove that through injection, and you're on to something... Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Sodium bicarb will remove the CO2 from the blood. Damn it....should read on. No... Sodium bicarb will convert the excess hydrogen caused by acidosis TO carbon dioxide. It is given to patients in metabolic acidosis as a buffer... Once the hydrogen is converted to C02 and water, it is exhaled, and removed via urination. |
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The_Beer_Slayer
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Posted: 6/28/2012 2:44:31 PM
Originally Posted By Kodan:
You automatic body functions like breathing wouldnt stop. You brain doesnt know how to turn that off so I would think you would still breath even if you didnt need to. Also would be interesting to see how long you could hold your breath. actually yes it will. patients on oxygen therapy "can" go into respiratory arrest if O2 sat becomes too high. they will generally start breathing again but not always. |
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txcop893
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Posted: 6/28/2012 2:45:08 PM
Originally Posted By madmedic:
Originally Posted By txcop893:
Originally Posted By Rattlehead502:
The problem is CO2 needs to be exchanged as well. Find a way to remove that through injection, and you're on to something... Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Sodium bicarb will remove the CO2 from the blood. Damn it....should read on. No... Sodium bicarb will convert the excess hydrogen caused by acidosis TO carbon dioxide. It is given to patients in metabolic acidosis as a buffer... Once the hydrogen is converted to C02 and water, it is exhaled, and removed via urination. 10-4...got it. I'm just a street cop......I thought I had picked up something golden on my many EMS assist's....lol. |
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M1-Ed
My Dad, The only True Superhero. NRA Member
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Posted: 6/28/2012 3:55:23 PM
Originally Posted By jeremyt:
Originally Posted By marcushire:
I wonder what that feels like (assuming you are healthy and all) to not have to inhale or exhale. Did anyone else take a deep breath after reading this?
I farted twice without exhaling. But I did inhale. 
Ed |
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Fat_McNasty
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Posted: 6/28/2012 4:04:13 PM
Originally Posted By myfakename:
That could come in handy while climbing Mt. Everest or riding the tour de france.. |
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36_gauge
I am Zoidberg. Why not?
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Posted: 6/28/2012 4:07:08 PM
Originally Posted By Fat_McNasty:
Originally Posted By myfakename:
That could come in handy while climbing Mt. Everest or riding the tour de france.. I'm almost 100% sure tour de france riders are already using this and even more exotic methods of doping. |
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ModernDayIsraelite
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Posted: 6/28/2012 4:08:19 PM
Originally Posted By Lacoochee:
Originally Posted By shorepatrol:
Really? What other ways? Well it lasts 15 - 30 minutes so yeah quick dive no equipment. What if it was delivered slowly rather than all at once... What is the max load. Would a shot in a limb that has blood flow restricted keep the limb from dying? A quick shot before a short term sporting event to up oxygen level - blood doping basically. A firefighter who find himself without oxygen, could administer a shot and NOT breathe in smoke and destroy his lungs as he escaped the structure. A choking victim could be given a shot and be given enough time to for medical help to arrive or even be transported to an emergency room. Same for a stroke victim or a heart attack patient. wow |
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Posted: 6/28/2012 4:25:27 PM
Originally Posted By Rattlehead502:
The problem is CO2 needs to be exchanged as well. Find a way to remove that through injection, and you're on to something... Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile This is the kicker. Retained CO2 and cellular wastes are the other side of the coin that is just as important as getting in O2. |
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Tango7
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Posted: 6/28/2012 4:39:46 PM
This might be helpful in cases of CO poisoning or trauma. I know they've been working on a hemoglobin substitute for years, but they could never get one that was shelf stable.
The waste products issue is still a big one however. Originally Posted By shorepatrol:
Originally Posted By Waveform:
That narrator has a highly annoying delivery. Breathable liquid would be awesome for high-g tanks. It was perfected in the Abyss, so it's only a matter of time. Dammit. Beat me to it. |
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Posted: 6/28/2012 5:24:57 PM
Originally Posted By FreeFloater:
Does the body recognize that oxygen levels are OK and resist the urge to breath in? Can you go 15 without breathing assuming the body notices that there's ample oxygen...or does the breathing reflex just kick in after some time unless consciously suppressed? That's another common misconception. Your drive to breathe is stimulated by levels of CO2, not levels of O2. |
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Justa_TXguy
half-seller of ducks
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Posted: 6/28/2012 6:56:35 PM
I was talking to a hyperbaric nurse a few days ago and she was telling me about oxygen seizure. In the hyperbaric chamber and wearing an oxygen mask, a patient can get such a high oxygen level that they actually go into a seizure just because of oxygen. The treatment is to take off the oxygen and the patient will generally stop seizing without any other intervention.
I'm not sure how high OP's injective oxygen would make the circulating oxygen get to, but it's a concern that would need to be addressed. |
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TailHunter
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Posted: 6/29/2012 1:53:28 PM
Originally Posted By Justa_TXguy:
I was talking to a hyperbaric nurse a few days ago and she was telling me about oxygen seizure. In the hyperbaric chamber and wearing an oxygen mask, a patient can get such a high oxygen level that they actually go into a seizure just because of oxygen. The treatment is to take off the oxygen and the patient will generally stop seizing without any other intervention. I'm not sure how high OP's injective oxygen would make the circulating oxygen get to, but it's a concern that would need to be addressed. That's what I mentioned earlier called Oxygen Toxicity. When the partial pressure of oxygen in your blood reaches a certain point (I should know what it is but I don't remember) your body with take Central Nervous System hit (CNS). In a Hyperbaric chamber with constant monitoring its easy to catch and fix. In a submerged environment you may not notice until your start into seizures and ultimately pass out. If you are not brought to a shallower depth and/or the surface your body will completely shut down. |
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Posted: 6/29/2012 2:10:03 PM
Originally Posted By NwG:
Very cool. My father is a heart MD and has a old tube type machine in his office. Looks kind of like this but glass tube on the outside and like 200 stainless tubes inside. It is a masterpiece of pipe fitting and welding. http://www.cwru.edu/artsci/dittrick/museum/artifacts1/oxygenator_1992-64-96.jpg I'm a perfusionist and I thank God every day that my generation of perfusionists don't have to use (and clean and sterilize) those old devices. Thanks for the pic though, I love the old history of heart surgery. |
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