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 ultramagbrion
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Posted: 6/12/2012 3:00:46 PM
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Posted: 6/12/2012 3:53:47 PM
Originally Posted By sixnine:
My guess is that this law was meant to protect someone who shoots a cop because a no knock warrant got served at the wrong address and the person thought they were shootng at a home invader. Indiana is a common law state (see I.C. 1-1-2-1(4)) and this particular principle on defending oneself and property has been unaltered for hundreds of years going into specific liberties under Magna Carta, without anyone hunting police officers or police officers feeling threatened, like the ridiculous statements in these news articles. The intention of Senate Enrolled Act 1 was to restore the law as it has stood for hundreds of years until the Indiana Supreme Court decision in Barnes v Indiana redefined it under an evolving standard, nothing more. |
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Posted: 6/12/2012 4:00:01 PM
Originally Posted By bigstick61:
Originally Posted By CouncilOfDave:
Originally Posted By 92muddyXJ:
If I remember right this law came soon after they said the police could enter your place with no warrant or some shit. It was causing quite the concern so they came up with this, sounds like trouble down the road. I could be wrong but I remember hearing about one then right after this came up... IIRC the ruling didn't change the standards for entry. All it did was affirm that "the entry was illegal" was not a defense from prosecution for assaulting an officer. Might be splitting hairs, but there is a difference. What it did was revoke the common law right to resist unlawful entry, search & seizure, arrest, etc. by agents of the state with force up to and including deadly force. I'm pretty sure the court actually used language stating explicitly that they were revoking what was considered a right. The court had no legitimate authority to do what they did. This law was a reaction to this, although from what I recall it is a little watered down compared to the common law. I would have just written a bill that says that the common law right revoked by the court is restored, but what the legislature did was far better than doing nothing, so good on them. It's actually unusual, as I understand it, for courts to try to revoke common law rights by themselves. It's usually the legislature or constitutional amendments (to State constitutions) that result in such, such as California's laws revoking the common law right of jurors to judge the law in a case or the right to resist unlawful arrest by a LEO with any sort of force. You understand it, I posted a respond in the legal section on this same subject and tie in changes to Indiana's Constitution on property tax of this same year, which does play into this. |
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jrzy
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Posted: 6/12/2012 5:39:26 PM
Originally Posted By tc556guy: Yeah because home invaders never ever say "POLICE POLICE"Originally Posted By Pushrod_Paul: I have been trained intensively in weapons use and used them almost daily while in the service and have kept up my training routines with them after. I will be grabbing my weapon and engaging the unkown threat that has come crashing through my front door while my wife dials 911. If I ID them as police I will disengage, and seek cover until they start issueing commands, which I will promptly follow. If they are bad guys, I hope I take them out before they can advance any further. They'll be IDing themselves and issuing commands as soon as they are through the door, a time when you are still apparently willing to engage them. I've said it before in this thread; some here are just looking fo a justification to shoot LEOs |
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dbrowne1
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Posted: 6/12/2012 5:58:22 PM
Originally Posted By Col-W:
Originally Posted By sixnine:
My guess is that this law was meant to protect someone who shoots a cop because a no knock warrant got served at the wrong address and the person thought they were shootng at a home invader. Indiana is a common law state (see I.C. 1-1-2-1(4)) and this particular principle on defending oneself and property has been unaltered for hundreds of years going into specific liberties under Magna Carta, without anyone hunting police officers or police officers feeling threatened, like the ridiculous statements in these news articles. The intention of Senate Enrolled Act 1 was to restore the law as it has stood for hundreds of years until the Indiana Supreme Court decision in Barnes v Indiana redefined it under an evolving standard, nothing more. This is my understanding as well. We had a good ole shitstorm of a thread here a while back when the IN Supreme Court made this ruling, and this is just the IN state legislature responding to put things back to the way they were before. Some people here and in the media seem to have the notion that this law is new, radical, or unique. It's not. It's really old, actually, and it's just undoing the judicial activism of the IN Supreme Court (which was the radical thing, if there was a radical move in all of this). |
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eric10mm
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Posted: 6/12/2012 7:30:16 PM
Originally Posted By tc556guy: You seem, familiar. JFB? Originally Posted By Sleeper396: Yeah but mistakes happen in the time between going to the courtroom and the moment they decide to have the raid. Who is to say that I or one of my family will not get shot in the process of their mistake? Or even more likely, the courtroom can't bring back my dog that they felt the need to suppress before making entry. I don't believe this bill will change anything. What I believe the purpose of this bill is is to put LEOs on notice and maybe force them to look at their current tactics reevaluate and come up with a better solution, like a standardized address system that you can fine people for not complying to. We just don't have the need for any more mistakes being made anymore. If you're shot by LEOs during a raid, its because you presented a threat. You shooting back because you think you have the right to shoot LEOs who've entered the wrong house will absolutely ID you as a threat to the LEOs who at that point are presumably still operating under the assumption that they are at the right address. If your dog was shot on entry, you shooting back isn't going to bring the dog back. If you're worried about address errors, tell homeowners to mark their own homes better. That one thing all by itself would have far more of a positive impact on day-to-day LE operations than the very rare wrong address raids. While what you mention about addresses is a LE concern as far as being able to find a place we are responding to, its beyond our power to create that unique address system across our whole jurisdiction. You make it sound as if its our job to create that  |
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USMCTanker
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Posted: 6/12/2012 7:39:00 PM
I saw this topic posted on Drudge yesterday, and I thought "damn, this will entertain GD for days" (if it doesn't get locked, that is).
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lostnswv
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Posted: 6/12/2012 9:46:29 PM
Originally Posted By tc556guy:
Originally Posted By 56type:
I guess this was the answer to the LE crowd who said it won't end well if resisting their entry. This could possibly make them take a second look at the address/paperwork before they kick down the wrong door. Also I don't know of to many LE wanting to walk into a hail of bullets so after the initial contact they would probably make a swift exit to regroup and reassess the situation allowing time for the details to be sorted out. Is it a perfect solution ?? NO....Is it better than the alternative of having to pray that you don't get shot or if you make it thru then having to worry that's it's an absolute certainty that you're going to prison for the rest of life for someone else's mistake ?? I believe it is. It puts LE on notice that their god complex will no longer be tolerated and that actions truly do have consequences, even for them. God complex? Really now. Regroup? You firing will draw return fire on yourself. What good will that do you in the long run. It wont turn out well for you. It is a two way range and a lot of officers have found out the hard way this year alone that stacking up at the door is no guarantee they will walk away. So maybe just maybe you and your brothers in blue may want to slow the fuck down and think real hard about whether this is the house you want to die in and if the reasons for throwing bones with the Reaper are worth it. |
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greenranger
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Posted: 6/13/2012 9:13:45 AM
Originally Posted By dbrowne1:
Originally Posted By Col-W:
Originally Posted By sixnine:
My guess is that this law was meant to protect someone who shoots a cop because a no knock warrant got served at the wrong address and the person thought they were shootng at a home invader. Indiana is a common law state (see I.C. 1-1-2-1(4)) and this particular principle on defending oneself and property has been unaltered for hundreds of years going into specific liberties under Magna Carta, without anyone hunting police officers or police officers feeling threatened, like the ridiculous statements in these news articles. The intention of Senate Enrolled Act 1 was to restore the law as it has stood for hundreds of years until the Indiana Supreme Court decision in Barnes v Indiana redefined it under an evolving standard, nothing more. This is my understanding as well. We had a good ole shitstorm of a thread here a while back when the IN Supreme Court made this ruling, and this is just the IN state legislature responding to put things back to the way they were before. Some people here and in the media seem to have the notion that this law is new, radical, or unique. It's not. It's really old, actually, and it's just undoing the judicial activism of the IN Supreme Court (which was the radical thing, if there was a radical move in all of this). I could swear that Georgia has a similar statue on the books but I don't want to spend the time looking for it. GR |
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SmilingBandit
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Posted: 6/13/2012 9:32:51 AM
Originally Posted By tc556guy:
Allowing residents to fire back at officers at mistaken addresses will not reduce those numbers We aren't discussing the fakes who pretend to be LEOs In a perfect world the facts would be straight. In a perfect world every house would be perfectly marked and I'd be right around the corner woth a 30 second response time. have a nice day yourself I know what would reduce mistaken address warrant services. Make the warrant state a single person that is responsible for the execution of the warrant on the property listed and is liable if they break into the wrong property. Once the first detective or team leader gets sent to prison for breaking and entering, use of a firearm to commit a felony, etc. whoever had their name on the line would make damn sure they knew where they were going. |
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jrzy
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Posted: 6/13/2012 11:57:36 AM
Originally Posted By SmilingBandit: no one would signOriginally Posted By tc556guy: Allowing residents to fire back at officers at mistaken addresses will not reduce those numbers We aren't discussing the fakes who pretend to be LEOs In a perfect world the facts would be straight. In a perfect world every house would be perfectly marked and I'd be right around the corner woth a 30 second response time. have a nice day yourself I know what would reduce mistaken address warrant services. Make the warrant state a single person that is responsible for the execution of the warrant on the property listed and is liable if they break into the wrong property. Once the first detective or team leader gets sent to prison for breaking and entering, use of a firearm to commit a felony, etc. whoever had their name on the line would make damn sure they knew where they were going. |
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Posted: 6/13/2012 12:57:17 PM
Originally Posted By SmilingBandit:
Originally Posted By tc556guy:
Allowing residents to fire back at officers at mistaken addresses will not reduce those numbers We aren't discussing the fakes who pretend to be LEOs In a perfect world the facts would be straight. In a perfect world every house would be perfectly marked and I'd be right around the corner woth a 30 second response time. have a nice day yourself I know what would reduce mistaken address warrant services. Make the warrant state a single person that is responsible for the execution of the warrant on the property listed and is liable if they break into the wrong property. Once the first detective or team leader gets sent to prison for breaking and entering, use of a firearm to commit a felony, etc. whoever had their name on the line would make damn sure they knew where they were going. What you fail to understand is that criminals intentionally make it difficult to locate their residence. I have worked in neighborhoods that had all of the street signs either removed or relocated to the wrong streets by the residents. Houses were regularly missing numbers or had numbers switched around. There were no mailboxes...all mail went to PO Boxes or a central neighborhood box. And...just to make it more fun, the "residents" would rent rooms for cash to random people. Then there were residents that got the bright idea to just knock a hole in the wall between appartments to make one big appartment that now has two different addresses... On top of this, they pile trash and old cars in the road to block off coves to traffic "so the kids can play"...making surveillance impossible. Reality isn't nearly as simple as you make it out to be. |
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Wobblin-Goblin
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Posted: 6/13/2012 1:02:03 PM
Originally Posted By FedDC:
Originally Posted By SmilingBandit:
I know what would reduce mistaken address warrant services. Make the warrant state a single person that is responsible for the execution of the warrant on the property listed and is liable if they break into the wrong property. Once the first detective or team leader gets sent to prison for breaking and entering, use of a firearm to commit a felony, etc. whoever had their name on the line would make damn sure they knew where they were going. What you fail to understand is that criminals intentionally make it difficult to locate their residence. I have worked in neighborhoods that had all of the street signs either removed or relocated to the wrong streets by the residents. Houses were regularly missing numbers or had numbers switched around. There were no mailboxes...all mail went to PO Boxes or a central neighborhood box. And...just to make it more fun, the "residents" would rent rooms for cash to random people. Then there were residents that got the bright idea to just knock a hole in the wall between appartments to make one big appartment that now has two different addresses... On top of this, they pile trash and old cars in the road to block off coves to traffic "so the kids can play"...making surveillance impossible. Reality isn't nearly as simple as you make it out to be. And yet most of the time we read about wrong address raids, it involves none of the above. Go figure. |
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SmilingBandit
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Posted: 6/13/2012 1:06:57 PM
Originally Posted By FedDC:
What you fail to understand is that criminals intentionally make it difficult to locate their residence. I have worked in neighborhoods that had all of the street signs either removed or relocated to the wrong streets by the residents. Houses were regularly missing numbers or had numbers switched around. There were no mailboxes...all mail went to PO Boxes or a central neighborhood box. And...just to make it more fun, the "residents" would rent rooms for cash to random people. Then there were residents that got the bright idea to just knock a hole in the wall between appartments to make one big appartment that now has two different addresses... On top of this, they pile trash and old cars in the road to block off coves to traffic "so the kids can play"...making surveillance impossible. Reality isn't nearly as simple as you make it out to be. Somebody has to know what they are going to go search. If the investigator that's requesting the search can't find the place then how can he describe it for the warrant request? |
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SmilingBandit
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Posted: 6/13/2012 1:08:03 PM
Originally Posted By jrzy:
Originally Posted By SmilingBandit:
no one would sign
I know what would reduce mistaken address warrant services. Make the warrant state a single person that is responsible for the execution of the warrant on the property listed and is liable if they break into the wrong property. Once the first detective or team leader gets sent to prison for breaking and entering, use of a firearm to commit a felony, etc. whoever had their name on the line would make damn sure they knew where they were going. I didn't realize I was suggesting such an increadible level of accountability. |
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Posted: 6/13/2012 1:12:25 PM
On the other hand if a few Italian terrorists can figure out the best way to bag someone is between the front door and the car, you would think our boys in blue could figure that out too. Thinking like that could have saved a number of innocents. If the the cop is worried about it perhaps he needs to train more. A law against them shooting you probably isn't going to deter a determined criminal. |
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Posted: 6/13/2012 1:51:24 PM
Originally Posted By SmilingBandit:
Originally Posted By jrzy:
Originally Posted By SmilingBandit:
no one would sign
I know what would reduce mistaken address warrant services. Make the warrant state a single person that is responsible for the execution of the warrant on the property listed and is liable if they break into the wrong property. Once the first detective or team leader gets sent to prison for breaking and entering, use of a firearm to commit a felony, etc. whoever had their name on the line would make damn sure they knew where they were going. I didn't realize I was suggesting such an increadible level of accountability. There comes a point where its not worth it to do the job and risk your freedom, family, financial future, etc. You see this in cities where the Police have poor support from their higher...passive policing...just go park in an alley and see nothing, hear nothing, do nothing. Do nothing...and you do nothing wrong. You don't want that kind of PD. |
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tc556guy
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Posted: 6/13/2012 1:57:59 PM
[Last Edit: 6/13/2012 1:59:44 PM by tc556guy]
Originally Posted By Wobblin-Goblin:
And yet most of the time we read about wrong address raids, it involves none of the above. Go figure. If you rely on the MSM for the full story on any incident, you're wrong. Just because you don't read about it doesn't mean anything Originally Posted By Casper507:
On the other hand if a few Italian terrorists can figure out the best way to bag someone is between the front door and the car, you would think our boys in blue could figure that out too. Thinking like that could have saved a number of innocents. Do you think the Italian terrorist worries about unintended casualties? |
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Posted: 6/13/2012 2:06:02 PM
Originally Posted By eric10mm:
Originally Posted By tc556guy:
[quote]Originally Posted By Sleeper396: Yeah but mistakes happen in the time between going to the courtroom and the moment they decide to have the raid. Who is to say that I or one of my family will not get shot in the process of their mistake? Or even more likely, the courtroom can't bring back my dog that they felt the need to suppress before making entry. I don't believe this bill will change anything. What I believe the purpose of this bill is is to put LEOs on notice and maybe force them to look at their current tactics reevaluate and come up with a better solution, like a standardized address system that you can fine people for not complying to. We just don't have the need for any more mistakes being made anymore. If you're shot by LEOs during a raid, its because you presented a threat. You shooting back because you think you have the right to shoot LEOs who've entered the wrong house will absolutely ID you as a threat to the LEOs who at that point are presumably still operating under the assumption that they are at the right address. If your dog was shot on entry, you shooting back isn't going to bring the dog back. [span style='color: red;']If you're worried about address errors, tell homeowners to mark their own homes better. That one thing all by itself would have far more of a positive impact on day-to-day LE operations than the very rare wrong address raids. While what you mention about addresses is a LE concern as far as being able to find a place we are responding to, its beyond our power to create that unique address system across our whole jurisdiction. You make it sound as if its our job to create that It's the LEOs job to get the address correct period. If you get it wrong and storm into the wrong home and the homeowner is well armed you may suffer for your mistake. |
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ARDestructo
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Posted: 6/13/2012 2:07:59 PM
Originally Posted By Bostonterrier97:
Indiana law lets citizens shoot at police (under certain conditions) Excerpt - Columbus, Ohio –– Every time police Sgt. Joseph Hubbard stops a speeder or serves a search warrant, he says he worries that suspects assume they can open fire - without breaking the law. Hubbard, a 17-year veteran of the Police Department in Jeffersonville, Ind., says his apprehension stems from a state law approved this year that allows residents to use deadly force in response to the "unlawful intrusion" by a "public servant" to protect themselves and others, or their property. "Public servant" was added to clarify the law after a state Supreme Court ruling last year that "there is no right to reasonably resist unlawful entry by police officers," he said. The case was based on a man charged with assaulting an officer during a domestic-violence call. ––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––- Read more at above link... Sounds like a good law to lobby our legislatures for...one of the original intentions for the 2nd Amendment was that it was intended as a last ditch safe guard against tyranny. Over the years...the courts and legislature have whittled away our liberties...and the police have become militirazed and aggressive. We can no longer trust police to disobey an unconstitutional order: Hurricane Katrina proved that, nor can we trust the police to protect us (the LA Rodney King riots proved that point) Clearly that Court decision was bad, but I don't know if this is the best solution to that problem. |
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bullyforyou
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Posted: 6/13/2012 2:24:11 PM
a free people should be able to shoot at ANYONE, *under certain circumstances*. those certain circumstances are for the electorate to decide, but it should always be a "good for all" standard. |
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dbd870
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Posted: 6/13/2012 2:28:16 PM
This isn't new - it was discussed in the HTF back when it happened - guess it didn't make over to GD
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SmilingBandit
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Posted: 6/13/2012 3:25:11 PM
Originally Posted By FedDC:
There comes a point where its not worth it to do the job and risk your freedom, family, financial future, etc. You see this in cities where the Police have poor support from their higher...passive policing...just go park in an alley and see nothing, hear nothing, do nothing. Do nothing...and you do nothing wrong. You don't want that kind of PD. I also don't want one where a bunch of armed men can break into a house without cause or legal authority and leave without even saying sorry. I'd like to think that there is something that can be done. Frankly I don't understand how a suggestion like this is unreasonable, but I'm open to alternatives. |
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greenranger
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Posted: 6/13/2012 3:28:20 PM
Originally Posted By SmilingBandit:
Originally Posted By FedDC:
There comes a point where its not worth it to do the job and risk your freedom, family, financial future, etc. You see this in cities where the Police have poor support from their higher...passive policing...just go park in an alley and see nothing, hear nothing, do nothing. Do nothing...and you do nothing wrong. You don't want that kind of PD. I also don't want one where a bunch of armed men can break into a house without cause or legal authority and leave without even saying sorry. I'd like to think that there is something that can be done. Frankly I don't understand how a suggestion like this is unreasonable, but I'm open to alternatives. there is something that can be done if they hit the wrong house. Its called a lawsuit. GR |
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VelveteenMole
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Posted: 6/13/2012 3:31:01 PM
Originally Posted By tc556guy: Originally Posted By Pushrod_Paul: That's an assinine recommendation. If someone in their own home is not a criminal the only people they would ever expect to come through their door with force in the middle of the night are actual criminals. I for one would not wait around to find out if they are actual criminals before grabbing a firearm and confronting, you and your family end up dead that way. If I id them as cops, I'll cease and desist. If they are coming forcefully through my door in the dark and I awake from a dead sleep, I am shooting first and asking questions later.... period. I would hope that you would do the same to protect yourself and your family. If the cops want me, they can knock on the door and wait for me to answer it. I would then follow any lawful commands or instructions. Everyone stays alive that way. Thanks for your opinion. I'll stick with mine. As far as my family, I sleep on the second floor. They sleep on the second floor My bedroom faces the road. if I hear the door crash downstairs, I'll be looking out the window and dialing 911 before I even hit the stairs. I bet unless you live in a single wide trailer, the average house design gives most people enough time to adequately ID who is coming through the front door. Easily as dumb as anything that has ever been posted on the internet. Consider being awoken from a dead sleep in the middle of the night at who-knows-what-point in the "announce" process, perhaps needing to put on one's glasses, or turn off a fan to hear something at the front of the house, or having no view of the flashing red and blues out front, or seeing nothing but a fucking gun barrel and blinding lights coming through the door/around the corner while one tries to verify the quality of the embroidery on the raid vests. Home invasion crews in Texas and Oklahoma have been getting more sophisticated and elaborate with their disguises and tactics as well. And yeah, that is BIG issue in the mind of someone with no criminal history being woken up by a crashing door and people yelling "POLICE."
Just have to love psychics with weapons, armor, and immunity.
Plus the fact that you would excuse mistakes based on poorly marked houses, let alone blame the victims on those grounds, is utterly absurd.
When the cops are too lazy and INDIFFERENT to have someone who KNOWS, FIRST HAND through personal observation of the suspect activity/person, the who and why of the warrant VISUALLY verify, when staging the entry, that the building and/or door is what is tied to the evidence or person sought, with a photo or video for documentation and comparison at the time of the raid, then there is NO MORAL JUSTIFICATION for anything that goes wrong. Anyone who would proceed to break into someone's home with weapons without that level of verification is indifferent to human life and belongs in prison rather than behind a badge.
And I nor most people give a fuck what the law requires of you, because the law, let alone how it's applied, is tied to what's right and wrong by a malnourished albino's pubic hair.
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SmilingBandit
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Posted: 6/13/2012 3:33:57 PM
Originally Posted By greenranger:
Originally Posted By SmilingBandit:
Originally Posted By FedDC:
There comes a point where its not worth it to do the job and risk your freedom, family, financial future, etc. You see this in cities where the Police have poor support from their higher...passive policing...just go park in an alley and see nothing, hear nothing, do nothing. Do nothing...and you do nothing wrong. You don't want that kind of PD. I also don't want one where a bunch of armed men can break into a house without cause or legal authority and leave without even saying sorry. I'd like to think that there is something that can be done. Frankly I don't understand how a suggestion like this is unreasonable, but I'm open to alternatives. there is something that can be done if they hit the wrong house. Its called a lawsuit. GR That is payed by the taxpayers. The officers still have no personal accountability, and thus no external pressure to change. |
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VelveteenMole
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Posted: 6/13/2012 3:34:58 PM
Originally Posted By tc556guy: Originally Posted By Pushrod_Paul: I have been trained intensively in weapons use and used them almost daily while in the service and have kept up my training routines with them after. I will be grabbing my weapon and engaging the unkown threat that has come crashing through my front door while my wife dials 911. If I ID them as police I will disengage, and seek cover until they start issueing commands, which I will promptly follow. If they are bad guys, I hope I take them out before they can advance any further. They'll be IDing themselves and issuing commands as soon as they are through the door, a time when you are still apparently willing to engage them. I've said it before in this thread; some here are just looking fo a justification to shoot LEOs How? Are they gonna glue the LT's ID to a fucking baton round and send it through my window with a minute to look it over? I've got a bridge to sell you.
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tc556guy
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Posted: 6/13/2012 4:00:05 PM
[Last Edit: 6/13/2012 4:05:27 PM by tc556guy]
Originally Posted By SmilingBandit:
I also don't want one where a bunch of armed men can break into a house without cause or legal authority and leave without even saying sorry. I'd like to think that there is something that can be done. Frankly I don't understand how a suggestion like this is unreasonable, but I'm open to alternatives. If the dept broke into the wrong address, they should repair the damage they caused. You don't see how sending the officers to prison is unreasonable? Originally Posted By VelveteenMole:
Easily as dumb as anything that has ever been posted on the internet. ....Plus the fact that you would excuse mistakes based on poorly marked houses, let alone blame the victims on those grounds, is utterly absurd. You come out with me some nights and see what a struggle it is to find the right location. You wont think it was an absurd comment then. quote]Originally Posted By VelveteenMole: How? Are they gonna glue the LT's ID to a fucking baton round and send it through my window with a minute to look it over? [/quote] Every team that makes entry is IDing themselves and are clearly marked as being LEOs. many teams have marked units outside . My earlier comment about the typical residence layout was correct. |
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SmilingBandit
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Posted: 6/13/2012 4:03:54 PM
Originally Posted By tc556guy:
Originally Posted By SmilingBandit:
I also don't want one where a bunch of armed men can break into a house without cause or legal authority and leave without even saying sorry. I'd like to think that there is something that can be done. Frankly I don't understand how a suggestion like this is unreasonable, but I'm open to alternatives. If the dept broke into the wrong address, they should repair the damage they caused. You don't see how sending the officers to prison is unreasonable? If the department broke into the wrong house then they did so without the legal right to do so. Breaking into someone's house in a manner contrary to the law should have repercussions. |
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tc556guy
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Posted: 6/13/2012 4:06:23 PM
Originally Posted By SmilingBandit:
If the department broke into the wrong house then they did so without the legal right to do so. Breaking into someone's house in a manner contrary to the law should have repercussions. They didn't do so with criminal intent. It becomes a civil matter. They owe the homeowner a new door or any other repairs required to return the residence to its former condition. |
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SmilingBandit
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Posted: 6/13/2012 4:06:30 PM
Originally Posted By tc556guy:
You come out with me some nights and see what a struggle it is to find the right location. You wont think it was an absurd comment then. And? If we were talking about immediate emergent action I can understand getting the wrong address if it is that poorly marked. But in the case of a warrant, where an investigator presumably has at least had some knowledge of the property since he's stating that there is probably the illegal items they are looking for there, there's not a whole lot of valid reasons to break down the wrong door. |
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Lightning1960
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Posted: 6/13/2012 4:18:35 PM
Originally Posted By tc556guy:
Originally Posted By SmilingBandit:
If the department broke into the wrong house then they did so without the legal right to do so. Breaking into someone's house in a manner contrary to the law should have repercussions. They didn't do so with criminal intent. It becomes a civil matter. They owe the homeowner a new door or any other repairs required to return the residence to its former condition. Serious question.............. If Joe citizen gets shitfaced drunk, walks home, can't find his keys, so he breaks in and crashes on the couch. Homeowners come home and see their home has been broken into, and call police. Poor Joe was so drunk he broke into someone elses home, believing it was his home. There was no criminal intent, he just wanted to go to sleep. Do you believe Joe wouldn't face any charges ? |
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tc556guy
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Posted: 6/13/2012 4:27:44 PM
Originally Posted By Lightning1960:
Serious question.............. If Joe citizen gets shitfaced drunk, walks home, can't find his keys, so he breaks in and crashes on the couch. Homeowners come home and see their home has been broken into, and call police. Poor Joe was so drunk he broke into someone elses home, believing it was his home. There was no criminal intent, he just wanted to go to sleep. Do you believe Joe wouldn't face any charges ? That happens all the time. |
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Posted: 6/13/2012 4:30:53 PM
Originally Posted By tc556guy:
Originally Posted By Lightning1960:
Serious question.............. If Joe citizen gets shitfaced drunk, walks home, can't find his keys, so he breaks in and crashes on the couch. Homeowners come home and see their home has been broken into, and call police. Poor Joe was so drunk he broke into someone elses home, believing it was his home. There was no criminal intent, he just wanted to go to sleep. Do you believe Joe wouldn't face any charges ? That happens all the time. Yes it does, didn't something like that occur within the last couple of weeks? I think it involved a college student out west or something? |
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Posted: 6/13/2012 4:45:51 PM
Originally Posted By SmilingBandit:
Originally Posted By FedDC:
There comes a point where its not worth it to do the job and risk your freedom, family, financial future, etc. You see this in cities where the Police have poor support from their higher...passive policing...just go park in an alley and see nothing, hear nothing, do nothing. Do nothing...and you do nothing wrong. You don't want that kind of PD. I also don't want one where a bunch of armed men can break into a house without cause or legal authority and leave without even saying sorry. I'd like to think that there is something that can be done. Frankly I don't understand how a suggestion like this is unreasonable, but I'm open to alternatives. It is already illegal at both the Federal and Local level for the Police to simply break into someone's house without cause or legal authority. You know that. |
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Posted: 6/13/2012 4:47:26 PM
Originally Posted By SmilingBandit:
Originally Posted By tc556guy:
Originally Posted By SmilingBandit:
I also don't want one where a bunch of armed men can break into a house without cause or legal authority and leave without even saying sorry. I'd like to think that there is something that can be done. Frankly I don't understand how a suggestion like this is unreasonable, but I'm open to alternatives. If the dept broke into the wrong address, they should repair the damage they caused. You don't see how sending the officers to prison is unreasonable? If the department broke into the wrong house then they did so without the legal right to do so. Breaking into someone's house in a manner contrary to the law should have repercussions. No shit? It already does...as in Cops can face criminal and civil penalties if they act in an illegal manner or commit a crime under color of authority. |
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ARDestructo
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Posted: 6/13/2012 4:47:50 PM
[Last Edit: 6/13/2012 4:51:37 PM by ARDestructo]
Originally Posted By tc556guy:
Originally Posted By Sleeper396:
Yeah but mistakes happen in the time between going to the courtroom and the moment they decide to have the raid. Who is to say that I or one of my family will not get shot in the process of their mistake? Or even more likely, the courtroom can't bring back my dog that they felt the need to suppress before making entry. I don't believe this bill will change anything. What I believe the purpose of this bill is is to put LEOs on notice and maybe force them to look at their current tactics reevaluate and come up with a better solution, like a standardized address system that you can fine people for not complying to. We just don't have the need for any more mistakes being made anymore. If you're shot by LEOs during a raid, its because you presented a threat. You shooting back because you think you have the right to shoot LEOs who've entered the wrong house will absolutely ID you as a threat to the LEOs who at that point are presumably still operating under the assumption that they are at the right address. If your dog was shot on entry, you shooting back isn't going to bring the dog back. If you're worried about address errors, tell homeowners to mark their own homes better. That one thing all by itself would have far more of a positive impact on day-to-day LE operations than the very rare wrong address raids. While what you mention about addresses is a LE concern as far as being able to find a place we are responding to, its beyond our power to create that unique address system across our whole jurisdiction. You make it sound as if its our job to create that I can not believe some of the pure horseshit I read on this site sometimes. Plenty of people are mistakenly shot by cops every year. Probably more than weekly. But whatever, the most amazing part of this post is the "well it's your fault for not letting us know better that we shouldn't have burglarized your house". How about you do your fucking job? Maybe a little due diligence? Make sure the house you are about to raid is the one that actually has the people you're looking for? You may not be in charge of the addressing system, but you sure as shit can actually do your homework and make sure you're at the right house. It has nothing to do with the address. We expect you to do more than Google where someone lives and then destroy the front door of the first address that pops up. There was a time when cops were expected to stake out a home, see the people they were looking for coming and going, actually conduct surveillance. You know, the boring stuff that is the reason we have a professional police force. It's not my job to make sure you do your job right. Now we have cops blaming the victims of their own shitty behavior for their laziness. Fucking incredible. |
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jrzy
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Posted: 6/13/2012 5:08:53 PM
Originally Posted By tc556guy: Nice how you always duck the questionOriginally Posted By Lightning1960: Serious question.............. If Joe citizen gets shitfaced drunk, walks home, can't find his keys, so he breaks in and crashes on the couch. Homeowners come home and see their home has been broken into, and call police. Poor Joe was so drunk he broke into someone elses home, believing it was his home. There was no criminal intent, he just wanted to go to sleep. Do you believe Joe wouldn't face any charges ? That happens all the time. Answer it, should joe get charged? |
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tc556guy
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Posted: 6/13/2012 5:10:48 PM
Originally Posted By ARDestructo:
But whatever, the most amazing part of this post is the "well it's your fault for not letting us know better that we shouldn't have burglarized your house". Now we have cops blaming the victims of their own shitty behavior for their laziness. Fucking incredible. I am always amazed at the people who take much offense when I make this comment. It's been something I've said for years. I never say its the sole reason these mistakes happen. It is a contributing factor. FedDc raised some other issues about intentional mislabelling streets and houses/ apartments by crooks. The reality is that many of these things happen because a house, an aprtment, a duplex, whatever, is poorly marked, Thats reality. I understand you're angry, but you don't need to get so hostile when I point out one factor that contributes to the mistakes being made. |
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ArmyInfantryVet
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Posted: 6/13/2012 5:11:39 PM
Originally Posted By hobbsar: I believe that the only thing this accomplishes is to make an already dangerous job even more so. Government is supposed to be afraid of the people, the people aren't supposed to be afraid of government. |
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ARDestructo
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Posted: 6/13/2012 5:12:45 PM
Originally Posted By FedDC:
Originally Posted By SmilingBandit:
Originally Posted By jrzy:
Originally Posted By SmilingBandit:
no one would sign
I know what would reduce mistaken address warrant services. Make the warrant state a single person that is responsible for the execution of the warrant on the property listed and is liable if they break into the wrong property. Once the first detective or team leader gets sent to prison for breaking and entering, use of a firearm to commit a felony, etc. whoever had their name on the line would make damn sure they knew where they were going. I didn't realize I was suggesting such an increadible level of accountability. There comes a point where its not worth it to do the job and risk your freedom, family, financial future, etc. You see this in cities where the Police have poor support from their higher...passive policing...just go park in an alley and see nothing, hear nothing, do nothing. Do nothing...and you do nothing wrong. You don't want that kind of PD. Oh man this all just keeps getting better. So no one would actually sign up to be held accountable for their actions? This isn't that far out. If you had actually done substantive work in a non-government area, you might actually be familiar with people actually taking responsibility for their work. If no one is willing to be held accountable for potentially be held responsible for fucking up and killing innocent people, then that power should be revoked from the organization that can't actually handle said responsibility. In the real world, where you get paid because you actually go out and earn money, taking responsibility for your work, people all the time put their signatures on things and are held responsible if a fucking bridge collapses or a car blows the fuck up and kills someone. But I guess we're batshit insane for expecting people whose job it is to walk around with guns to bear such a heavy burden. |
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ARDestructo
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Posted: 6/13/2012 5:14:39 PM
[Last Edit: 6/13/2012 5:17:32 PM by ARDestructo]
Originally Posted By tc556guy:
Originally Posted By ARDestructo:
But whatever, the most amazing part of this post is the "well it's your fault for not letting us know better that we shouldn't have burglarized your house". Now we have cops blaming the victims of their own shitty behavior for their laziness. Fucking incredible. I am always amazed at the people who take much offense when I make this comment. It's been something I've said for years. I never say its the sole reason these mistakes happen. It is a contributing factor. FedDc raised some other issues about intentional mislabelling streets and houses/ apartments by crooks. The reality is that many of these things happen because a house, an aprtment, a duplex, whatever, is poorly marked, Thats reality. I understand you're angry, but you don't need to get so hostile when I point out one factor that contributes to the mistakes being made. No, that's not why those things happen. Those things happen because those police were too lazy to do their jobs. The number on the house is not the end-all, be-all of who might live there. Put a car out front and make sure you have the right house before you rush into it with guns drawn and shoot anything that looks suspicious. If you don't, expect the reality that you will get shot by people who know there is no reason for the police to knock down their door in the middle of the night. I'm not suggesting something radical here. I'm saying you should do your job. |
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tc556guy
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Posted: 6/13/2012 5:17:20 PM
Originally Posted By ARDestructo:
No, that's not why those things happen. Those things happen because the police are too lazy to do their jobs. The number on the house is not the end-all, be-all of who might live there. Put a car out front and make sure you have the right house before you rush into it with guns drawn and shoot anything that looks suspicious. If you don't, expect the reality that you will get shot by people who know there is no reason for the police to knock down their door in the middle of the night. I'm not suggesting something radical here. I'm saying you should do your job. Its a contributing factor. You saying its not doesn't change that. Putting a marked car out in front BEFORE a raid thats supposed to be using the element of surprise? Good luck . Marked units are rolled up simultaneous to the entry. Not before. You ARE suggesting something radical and unrealistic, and the whys of that have already been covered in this and previous threads. But guys like you will continue to beatyour chests and demand that it oughtta be done this other way. |
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Posted: 6/13/2012 5:18:43 PM
Originally Posted By Bostonterrier97:
Originally Posted By hobbsar:
I believe that the only thing this accomplishes is to make an already dangerous job even more so. Oh I dunno...as long as "public servants" obey the law and the constitution...they should be safe. I think its mostly professional criminals who happen to wear a badge who feel threatened... Bad guys are gonna shoot anyway, the good guys who get their door mistakenly kicked in and shot should have a legal right to defend themselves, it's not the homeowners fault the police make a mistake why should the homeowner pay for their mistake? |
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ARDestructo
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Posted: 6/13/2012 5:19:30 PM
[Last Edit: 6/13/2012 5:21:22 PM by ARDestructo]
Originally Posted By tc556guy:
Originally Posted By ARDestructo:
No, that's not why those things happen. Those things happen because the police are too lazy to do their jobs. The number on the house is not the end-all, be-all of who might live there. Put a car out front and make sure you have the right house before you rush into it with guns drawn and shoot anything that looks suspicious. If you don't, expect the reality that you will get shot by people who know there is no reason for the police to knock down their door in the middle of the night. I'm not suggesting something radical here. I'm saying you should do your job. Its a contributing factor. You saying its not doesn't change that. Putting a marked car out in front BEFORE a raid thats supposed to be using the element of surprise? Good luck . Marked units are rolled up simultaneous to the entry. Not before. You ARE suggesting something radical and unrealistic, and the whys of that have already been covered in this and previous threads. But guys like you will continue to beatyour chests and demand that it oughtta be done this other way. No, I'm not. My parents worked federal law enforcement for decades. My grandfather was a cop for decades. They got a warrant, they put surveillance on the house to make sure it was the right one. They put eyes on the person they were looking for and noted who and when went into the house. Then they scheduled a raid for early morning at a time they knew the suspect would be home. You know what they didn't do? Just show up to a house, look for it, and assume everything was right and hope something didn't go wrong. If this is how you are going to conduct your business, then you need to do so in a way that doesn't jeopardize innocent lives, which means no more no-knocks. |
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FivespeedF150
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Posted: 6/13/2012 5:20:40 PM
Originally Posted By Rocksarge: Considering how well police are trained (I know first hand) compared to the average arfcommer, I'm sure this whole thing is a recipe for success. 100 shots fired, no injuries? |
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VelveteenMole
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Posted: 6/13/2012 5:23:52 PM
[Last Edit: 6/13/2012 5:33:39 PM by VelveteenMole]
Originally Posted By tc556guy: Originally Posted By SmilingBandit: I also don't want one where a bunch of armed men can break into a house without cause or legal authority and leave without even saying sorry. I'd like to think that there is something that can be done. Frankly I don't understand how a suggestion like this is unreasonable, but I'm open to alternatives. If the dept broke into the wrong address, they should repair the damage they caused. You don't see how sending the officers to prison is unreasonable? Originally Posted By VelveteenMole: Easily as dumb as anything that has ever been posted on the internet. ....Plus the fact that you would excuse mistakes based on poorly marked houses, let alone blame the victims on those grounds, is utterly absurd. You come out with me some nights and see what a struggle it is to find the right location. You wont think it was an absurd comment then. quote]Originally Posted By VelveteenMole: How? Are they gonna glue the LT's ID to a fucking baton round and send it through my window with a minute to look it over? Every team that makes entry is IDing themselves and are clearly marked as being LEOs. many teams have marked units outside .
My earlier comment about the typical residence layout was correct. I can't ID you when you're blinding my night adjusted, bleary eyes with Surefires. And screaming "POLICE" is meaningless.
Your earlier comment about the typical residence layout is utter bullshit. I would know as someone who's knocked a lot of doors and spent time in plenty of houses. Most master bedrooms are at the rear of the home for SOUND INSULATION PURPOSES, and many older homes, the kind in bad neighborhoods for instance, have fucked up layouts where there's no telling what you can see if you're coming from the bedroom before encountering the door. None of it fucking matters when the cops (assuming it is the cops) are half-way down the hall when you're awake enough to grab a gun and know which way is up.
Once again, there's no excuse for getting the wrong address, because the number should have nothing to do with knowing if it's the right house. You shouldn't be allowed to enter a home based on hearsay of a number, you should have something visually tying the person or activity to that physical location with the person who witnessed it there with their eyes and visual documentation to verify it's the right structure/door. When it's a pre-planned issue of life, death, and the right to security of your own home, you have no business making any assumptions about the target.
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ARDestructo
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Posted: 6/13/2012 5:26:55 PM
[Last Edit: 6/13/2012 5:27:10 PM by ARDestructo]
Originally Posted By VelveteenMole:
the number should have nothing to do with knowing if it's the right house. You shouldn't be allowed to enter a home based on hearsay of a number, you should have something visually tying the person or activity to that physical location with the person who witnessed it there with their eyes and visual documentation to verify it's the right structure/door. When it's a pre-planned issue of life, death, and the right to security of your own home, you have no business making any assumptions about the target. Said it better than I did. |
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SmilingBandit
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Posted: 6/13/2012 5:32:49 PM
Originally Posted By FedDC:
Originally Posted By SmilingBandit:
Originally Posted By FedDC:
There comes a point where its not worth it to do the job and risk your freedom, family, financial future, etc. You see this in cities where the Police have poor support from their higher...passive policing...just go park in an alley and see nothing, hear nothing, do nothing. Do nothing...and you do nothing wrong. You don't want that kind of PD. I also don't want one where a bunch of armed men can break into a house without cause or legal authority and leave without even saying sorry. I'd like to think that there is something that can be done. Frankly I don't understand how a suggestion like this is unreasonable, but I'm open to alternatives. It is already illegal at both the Federal and Local level for the Police to simply break into someone's house without cause or legal authority. You know that. So what do you call it when a team breaks in to 732 Evergreen Terrace rather than the 742 Evergreen Terrace that their warrant authorizes them to be in? |
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tc556guy
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Posted: 6/13/2012 6:16:59 PM
Originally Posted By VelveteenMole:
[/div][div]Once again, there's no excuse for getting the wrong address, because the number should have nothing to do with knowing if it's the right house. You shouldn't be allowed to enter a home based on hearsay of a number, you should have something visually tying the person or activity to that physical location with the person who witnessed it there with their eyes and visual documentation to verify it's the right structure/door. When it's a pre-planned issue of life, death, and the right to security of your own home, you have no business making any assumptions about the target. How many of these mistakes do you think are based on "hearsay of a number"? I still disagree with your comments about home layouts. |
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