BIG + 1

People like to give folks in the LE world shit (I admit I do it too), but much of the problem isn't solely the result of misconduct, corruption, and shitbags being total shitbags. Years of shitty laws and bad court decisions have granted far to much authority to certain folks (both de jure and de facto, through the granting of certin powers and the assumption of certain things, good faith, reasonableness and so on) with very little real personal accountability. Along with entrusting them with too many responsibilities we have removed the ability to NOT enforce shitty laws by limiting discretion where it matters. When you add in an institutional culture that demands alliegence to the group above all else almost for its own sake and that combined with the realities of the job encourages sweeping generalizations about other segments of society and you have a recipe for problems, especially when poor hiring standards, cronyism, and outright corruption get thrown into the mix. LE problems are usually governmental problems at their heart and that generally tends to be where the solutions lie, but for better or worse LE will have bear the brunt of the criticism and resistance as ultimately they are responsible for the enforcement of the law, and through it the imposition of the will of the state.

This is my issue... people generally have no clue what their rights really are. Most people know more from watching TV than any sort of formal education or experience.

Good, maybe they'll start curbing the no-knock warrant crap.

It's always you.

Wrong. For one thing, NOWHERE in this thread have I mentioned a single thing regarding "illegal arrests." Those are your words. Throw the lawful or unlawfulness of an arrest red herring out the window right now, because I haven't said a single thing about using force (deadly or otherwise) to resist an unlawful arrest.


You've taken snippets from quotes addressing two different issues and combined them to support a claim that I'm somehow advocating pre-emptive violence against police.

Conversation one had to do with people saying it's unwise to resist unreasonable force against a policeman because there's a bleak outlook on your legal defense. This is true. But I'd rather live to take that chance if it came down to it. If I reasonably fear death or grave bodily injury from a policeman, I will use force to defend myself against him. Because I fear COURT a whole hell of alot less than DEATH.

Conversation two had to do with the problems associated with the law I cited regarding the justified use of deadly force against a police officer. I cited it AS A PROBLEM THAT EXISTS WITH THE LAW. NOT as justification for the pre-emptive use of deadly force. That problem with the law is that simply because I fear death or grave bodily injury from a police officer, then I am NOT justified in using force to resist an arrest. The law adds that he must use force greater than that is necessary to subdue me BEFORE I offer any resistance.

I cite that as a problem with the law because it effectively bans the use of reasonable force in a self defense situation. If I have a reasonable belief that someone intends to harm me, it shouldn't matter that the person is a policeman attempting to make an arrest. Lawful or otherwise. If that belief is reasonable, why on earth would you expect me to submit and then give me the green light to resist only AFTER those reasonable beliefs have born fruit in the form of blows?

I'm not sure how I could possibly make it any clearer. Either you see what you want to see or you take what I've said at face value.

But then they wouldn't get to shoot anybody.

Yeah , thats not what I said, there are a lot of ways a perp can be taken down with out a no knock warrant.
And you're right, building guns does not make me an expert, training helps and I have trained with some very bright tacticians and real life SWAT guys too.
Now I'm not saying by any means that I am an expert on dynamic entries but I do know more from what I have been through than the average joe.

But running through simulations in buildings is not live fire real life, I agree.


How many innocents have been killed in non knocks?
One is too many.

How many people who have awaken from a dead sleep did not obey commands screamed at them quick enough?
SWAT guys are human, they don't want to get shot, in the dark on a raid many people have made movements which are perceived to be a threat, they weren't a threat at all and have been shot.

Wrong anyway you want to look at it.
these people who jump the gun and shoot are held not accountable because they felt they were threatened , i'm talking about police officers shooting people.

That's right, citizens. Only the police are highly trained enough to do these complicated things. Like use Aimpoints.

I bet you'd be a lot more fucking careful and less cavalier about whether you get the right door, and wouldn't take your usual "gee, shit happens, sometimes we get the wrong address" attitude, if you knew the people inside could legally shoot you if you got it wrong.

Bet that would cut down on wrong address raids, wouldn't it?

*click*

Iirc, that pic is reversed. Either way, the general public has a weak understanding of deadly force laws as it is. This only serves to make that worse

The worst part is I bet you could post a 100 pages of these raids with the identical outcomes.
The LEO's going through the doors have already assigned guilt to the occupants of the dwelling.
Of course in their minds it says, "if they aren't bad guys why would we be here"
"They must be real bad guys for a dynamic entry right"

Sooner or later with enough people dead these will be harder for law enforcement to get warrants for.

Contrary to what blue line advocates say in this thread the right to defend my family and myself are not granted by them, it is a right of self defense granted by God.
The right to defend ones home is not a matter to be settled later in a court room, it is a matter to be stopped while it's in motion.

How in the fuck is anyone supposed to know if it's really the police waking from a deep sleep?
I am supposed to trust my life to armed men trying to get into my home?

Also contrary to what some LEO has said in this thread the SWAT team in most cases will stop & retreat once the element of surprise is gone.

If they encounter resistance it's usually stopped.

Police is written correctly on his patch , the flag is hung correctly , forward assist is on proper side ,safety is on correct side
and finally even if the pic was reversed the aimpoint would still be backwards

To you , and far too many like you , it means nothing . The rest of us see it for what it is ; horrific abuse of power resulting in dangerous , and sometimes deadly gestapo tactics .







Lately , I find I'm just numbed by the 'fail' , and almost awestruck by the flat-out denial some of these boys in blue insist on spewing in defense of it.



Scary times we live in folks , scary times

I love that one..... You can't come in: wanna bet

You're a cop basher. Just admit it. You hate LEOs and want to see them dead.

That's an assinine recommendation. If someone in their own home is not a criminal the only people they would ever expect to come through their door with force in the middle of the night are actual criminals. I for one would not wait around to find out if they are actual criminals before grabbing a firearm and confronting, you and your family end up dead that way. If I id them as cops, I'll cease and desist. If they are coming forcefully through my door in the dark and I awake from a dead sleep, I am shooting first and asking questions later.... period. I would hope that you would do the same to protect yourself and your family.

If the cops want me, they can knock on the door and wait for me to answer it. I would then follow any lawful commands or instructions. Everyone stays alive that way.

Now that's funny

Asinine assumptions are asinine
See how that works?
I would venture to say that about 1/2 the households in the country have back facing bedrooms?
So your door is being crashed in and you take the time to look out a window?
Nice move there sherlock.

What happens if you see no mark units or any units out front?
What then sherlock?

See the sarcasm in the sherlock comments?
See the sarcasm in the doublewide comments you made?
Insulting people because they disagree with you is trolling for a bad response huh?

They'll be IDing themselves and issuing commands as soon as they are through the door, a time when you are still apparently willing to engage them.

I've said it before in this thread; some here are just looking fo a justification to shoot LEOs

I dont bash cops , not sensible cops anyways.

I put blame where it's due and proper .

But go on and keep trying to paint me for something I'm not if it makes you feel better . Keep bashing honest and innocent civilians for wanting to protect their homes and families .

Cops made the mistakes in these instances . The only thing the dead homeowners did wrong , was not trying to defend themselves .



As to your earlier question , innocents die in shootouts already . Whether it's in a crowded supermarket , a city plaza , alongside a highway or where ever . And very few like it when it happens .

When an innocent dies due to negligence , folks rightfully expect punishment to be served ..... What's your point ?

You keep insisting that it would be safer to take a perp in his house as opposed to WalMart . . .well what about a deserted street or what-have-you ? . . . . maybe it is , maybe it isnt . I dont recall any wonderful stats and studies that have been presented showing one to be better than another .....do you ?

But when the police cant get the address right , it's an ILLEGAL home invasion . . . . and it's NOT the fault of the innocent dead homeowner ,
.
Various members of this site , including you , have said if they have a warrant , even if it's wrong , is still legal ...THAT'S BULLSHIT ...and also the cause of millions in wrongful death suits against the police.

I dont support taking away the rights of an innocent home dweller to defend himself against unwarranted violent entry without provocation BY ANYONE , be it coolio-crackhead or cleatus the constable .

You are expecting an innocent homeowner to restrain himself in a split second , possibly life-threatening situation , instead of expecting the LEO's to confirm that they have the right address and their information straightened out

My - Good - God . . . why is this even being argued ??

Americans have constitutional rights to bear arms , and use those arms in deadly scenarios that appear to threaten the lives of themselves and their loved ones , THAT is INDISPUTABLE...PERIOD.FUCKING.DOT.*


*(offer void in IL, CA, and NYC )

on behalf on all the dogs that have giving their life in the line of duty, i applaud this legislation.

No doubt .

Even if no one in your family was killed , can you imagine how badly that would fuck up their lives ?? The tens of thousands it would take to even START the defense in court ? All the repercussions down the road , AFTER it was ironed out ....IF it was ironed out ?


Jesus-titty-fucking-Christ what a nightmare . Who in their right mind would WANT to do that ?