Why do lawyers charge so much? - Page 2

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Why do lawyers charge so much? (Page 2 of 6)

Posted: 5/1/2012 10:18:49 AM EDT

[#1]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Because the repercussions of not hiring a lawyer are MUCH more expensive.

My and lawyer and I were discussing this other day. His main point was that EVERY FUCKING THING he does at work involves helping someone get rid of a major problem. If all I did all day long was make people's problems disappear (and deal with the shit that goes along with that) I'd bill $375/hour too.

Exactly, lawyers help people take care of some of the most difficult problems they ever face.

Posted: 5/1/2012 10:23:23 AM EDT

[#2]

you can't negotiate with them? don't tell the lawyer that handled my divorce. talked her down to $150 an hour. although, i did have most of the work done for her. dicorce agreement was based on our seperation agreement. all she had to do was draw up the paper work.

Posted: 5/1/2012 10:31:03 AM EDT

[#3]

Not all lawyers get $250 an hour. At least in this state, I'd say the majority are well under that. Factor in even a small town single lawyer shop needs at least $50 an hour just to cover the overhead. They don't collect all the fees they bill for. ome weeks they probably aren't billing out 40 hours. Or any hours. Don't forget ALL of their taxes, insurance, retirement accounts, etc come out of the hourly rate. And the bread and butter real estate stuff that pays for the bills for a lot of shops has been a little slow the last few years.

For every big city partner pulling down big bucks there are dozens of little guys struggling to keep the lights on.

Posted: 5/1/2012 10:31:43 AM EDT

[#4]

I worked for a CPA who did some legal work. He helped people with wills. He said if nobody contested it, then you didn't need a lawyer to do all the paper work. He'd charge something like 1800 and an attorney would charge 4-5000 for the same work.

I worked for a law firm and the partners and paralegals seemed to make about 50% of what they billed. The rest went to OH and secretaries. (They were in very nice offices nearly at the top of the tallest building in Minnespolis.)

Posted: 5/1/2012 10:34:24 AM EDT

[#5]

Quoted:
Not all lawyers get $250 an hour. At least in this state, I'd say the majority are well under that. Factor in even a small town single lawyer shop needs at least $50 an hour just to cover the overhead. They don't collect all the fees they bill for. ome weeks they probably aren't billing out 40 hours. Or any hours. Don't forget ALL of their taxes, insurance, retirement accounts, etc come out of the hourly rate. And the bread and butter real estate stuff that pays for the bills for a lot of shops has been a little slow the last few years.

For every big city partner pulling down big bucks there are dozens of little guys struggling to keep the lights on.

Then you've got competition from so many attorneys out there and now self-help legal forms & services. So, absolutely they definitely have some weeks that are pretty lean and it's hard for any attorney or firm to estimate exactly how much they'll make next week. Then of course there are clients who don't pay what they're billed requiring collection activities and that's less time put toward finding new clients or billing existing ones.

Couldn't pay me enough to be an attorney. Crazy hours if you work for a firm (40 hours of billable time takes 50 hours to do). If you open your own shop than you're not on salary and dependent on what you bring in, which is unpredictable.

Posted: 5/1/2012 10:41:20 AM EDT

[#6]

Quoted:
I worked for a CPA who did some legal work. He helped people with wills. He said if nobody contested it, then you didn't need a lawyer to do all the paper work. He'd charge something like 1800 and an attorney would charge 4-5000 for the same work.

I worked for a law firm and the partners and paralegals seemed to make about 50% of what they billed. The rest went to OH and secretaries. (They were in very nice offices nearly at the top of the tallest building in Minnespolis.)

Yeah, my Father is an attorney and he has years where he was making $250,000 in total for his practice, but he had two to four employees he had to pay for. He's also had some years where he's made as little as $20K. Very difficult to plan ahead in that business. Some large cases might come in with significant money one year and then it might be years before you pull in another. The medium sized firms around here have high turn over as well. There is zip job security as an attorney. Had a good family friend who went to work for a firm and after a few years they cut him loose, because they decided his area of practice wasn't making the dough. Had another friend who worked in estate planning and her firm worked her seven days a week and just kept demanding more and more hours from her until she just decided that it wasn't worth it and left.

Posted: 5/1/2012 10:41:49 AM EDT

[#7]

i'm going to send everyone in this thread a bill.

Posted: 5/1/2012 10:43:19 AM EDT

[#8]

My wife bills at $500/hr IIRC.

When she was working 2400hrs at the big firm, I think they billed out at $750/hr.

Posted: 5/1/2012 10:52:16 AM EDT

[#9]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Retainer FTMFW.

Exactly how do retainers work?

A retainer fee is a form of pre-payment which is usually based on the lawyer's hourly rate. This advanced fee ensures that the lawyer will provide certain legal services on behalf of the client. Think of it as a down payment on the services the lawyer provides. The funds, which are usually non-refundable, are place in the lawyer's or law firm's business or trust account where they have access to it to pay any upcoming expenses associated with the services that are rendered on behalf of the client. If the fees go above the retainer amount, the client must pay that amount. The retainer fee is just an initial estimate and it prohibits the lawyer or his firm from representing a competitor of the client. Additional fees beyond the retainer are often required when a matter must go to court.

A retainer fees is also used to pay for services when you want to have a lawyer on call to take care of your legal problems upon request or if you need legal counsel on a regular basis. In many cases, this fee is paid on a monthly schedule. In other words, by paying the monthly fee you have access to a lawyer whenever you need legal guidance or assistance.

Before accepting to pay a retainer fee, get the fee, terms and conditions in writing. In some instances, it could be too high and a court can have it reduced. In addition, some probate, bankruptcy and other court proceedings the (statutory) fee may be determined by a court or the law.

There most widely used forms of advance payment are "the general (or traditional) retainer", "the special (or specific) retainer", "the nonrefundable retainer", "the security retainer", and "the hybrid retainer".

Source: http://lawyerretainerfees.com/

Posted: 5/1/2012 10:52:54 AM EDT

[#10]

Graduating law school next year

Posted: 5/1/2012 10:59:54 AM EDT

[#11]

Close family members are both lawyers and doctors. After knowing what I know, I wouldnt want my child to grow up to be a lawyer unless she had her own small practice and then there would still be doubt. They dont make the money they charge. And unless they're a managing partner, they bust their asses for what they do get.

Posted: 5/1/2012 11:00:10 AM EDT

[#12]

Retainer also helps me preset times and terms. I use Haynes & Boone LLP for almost everything now. For example, I know I can speak directly to a lawyer regarding HR issues for 120 minutes/week, or get X numbers of e-mails answered per week. It spells out how the billing works. I do have to pay extra for anything that makes its way to trial though. A retainer is not for everyone, but it certainly is a right fit if you utilize the services of a lawyer quite often. For example, last year I ended up with 460ish hours billed (though I dumped that law firm).

Posted: 5/1/2012 11:02:05 AM EDT

[#13]

I've always seen this question asked for Electrical Contractors. People say, "Why do Electrician charge $100 per hour, that's more than I make!!!!" Some people believe that money actually goes into the Electrician's pocket, people don't understand overhead and what it takes to run a business. Nevermind the fact that a business owner wants to go on vacation, be able to retire, etc. just like everyone else.

Posted: 5/1/2012 11:02:49 AM EDT

[#14]

I charge $350 an hour on some things.

I'm not a lawyer.

Posted: 5/1/2012 11:03:37 AM EDT

[#15]

Quoted:
Because they can...

Bingo

Posted: 5/1/2012 11:06:56 AM EDT

[#16]

Quoted:
a good lawyer is worth their weight in gold.

my company uses them heavily.

i use them personally also, kept me out of trouble.

i am paying for their experience and skills. not all lawyers are the same

This about 7 or 8 years ago, everything I did or my firm did basically had to get run by a legal firm first for a CYA measure. $750 an hour. They were considered one of the best financial industry regulations firms out there.

Posted: 5/1/2012 11:07:46 AM EDT

[#17]

Not a lawyer, a thief or a banker.

Posted: 5/1/2012 11:08:16 AM EDT

[#18]

During a divorce meeting my lawyer showed me a 5x8 book which contained "fees"! Up until my ex decided to jerk me around it was pretty set in stone then the B. S. $350 for uncontested divorce. $700 for a contested divorce. All this in 1975. Sort of like the fee schedule used to get your car worked on.

Posted: 5/1/2012 11:09:49 AM EDT

[#19]

Quoted:
You'll be really pissed when you find out they aren't doing a quarter tenth of the work they are billing you for, just some paralegal or whoever in the office doing it all.

Posted: 5/1/2012 11:16:43 AM EDT

[#20]

Quoted:
you can't negotiate with them? don't tell the lawyer that handled my divorce. talked her down to $150 an hour. although, i did have most of the work done for her. dicorce agreement was based on our seperation agreement. all she had to do was draw up the paper work.

Sucker. He may have lowered his hourly rate, but he charged you for 1 1/2 times as long as it really took.

Posted: 5/1/2012 11:31:11 AM EDT

[#21]

Quoted:

Quoted:
You'll be really pissed when you find out they aren't doing a quarter tenth of the work they are billing you for, just some paralegal or whoever in the office doing it all.

MY LAWYER HAD DIFFERNET RATES FOR EVERYONE INVOLVED. paralegals where half of what my attorney charged. i got an itemized list of charges too. they even broke down the 1 1/2 min phone call i made. i was surprised.

Posted: 5/1/2012 11:31:50 AM EDT

[#22]

Outside of the large cities, lawyers aren't making lots of money. When I graduated law school, in my medium sized town in PA, in 2000, I was offered starting salaries from $25,000 to $35,000 at small firms in town. There are around 100 lawyers in this town, I'd say only 5 or 6 of them drive luxury cars or have a huge house, the rest are scrambling to make whatever money they can.

We charged $125.00 an hour, and $450 for an estate plan, and people would freak out about that. And no, we just didn't sit around all day letting our secretaries type. I sat down at my laptop when I got in at 9 am, and barely looked up from it until 6 or 7 at night. Even then not all of that was billable, because some of it was seeing if potential clients even had a case, or sometimes I would have to learn a new area of law, and you can't charge a client for that.

Posted: 5/1/2012 11:33:21 AM EDT

[#23]

Quoted:

Quoted:
you can't negotiate with them? don't tell the lawyer that handled my divorce. talked her down to $150 an hour. although, i did have most of the work done for her. dicorce agreement was based on our seperation agreement. all she had to do was draw up the paper work.

Sucker. He may have lowered his hourly rate, but he charged you for 1 1/2 times as long as it really took.

you are probably right. i find it funny her estimate of time was the retainer. when it was all said and done i owed her for a half hour. im sure there was some exaggerated work there. but i don't complain, lawyers are worth every penny.

Posted: 5/1/2012 11:35:25 AM EDT

[#24]

Quoted:
I charge $350 an hour on some things.

I'm not a lawyer.

Last night was worth every penny

Posted: 5/1/2012 11:45:31 AM EDT

[#25]

Quoted:

Quoted:

I charge $350 an hour on some things.

I'm not a lawyer.

Last night was worth every penny

Hell yea, I can't believe you actually paid me!

I expected to wake up in a dumpster again!

Posted: 5/1/2012 11:46:57 AM EDT

[#26]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I charge $350 an hour on some things.

I'm not a lawyer.

Last night was worth every penny

Well we know you're not in the Secret Service since you paid full price.

Posted: 5/1/2012 11:48:37 AM EDT

[#27]

You're doing it wrong. First couple of times I hired lawyers, I got fucked. You need to make friends with attorneys and have them refer you. Those that advertise are typically not the ones you want to work with.

Posted: 5/1/2012 11:48:41 AM EDT

[#28]

one funny fact to me about lawyers. and i like them... they are necessary IMO...

not one of them will ever tell you that becoming a lawyer is a good idea. when i was younger i was interested in going to law school and i NEVER met one that would say "yes, thats a good idea, you should go for it" on the contrary they would all say, "that is a bad idea, you should consider something else.etc..."

i actually called one of them out on this. i told him that the first class they take in law school must be to tell everyone else to never choose it as a profession....

i figured if they all hated it so much they must be right.... so i chose something else....

S

Posted: 5/1/2012 11:49:12 AM EDT

[#29]

Because they have a very high level of training which includes specialization and licensing. You cannot easily become your own lawyer and be successful in most instances. Same with plumbing, electricians and airline pilots.

The price comes from the high cost of training.

Posted: 5/1/2012 11:50:49 AM EDT

[#30]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I charge $350 an hour on some things.

I'm not a lawyer.

Last night was worth every penny

Well we know you're not in the Secret Service since you paid full price.

Nah, it was more a two for one deal.

Posted: 5/1/2012 11:51:27 AM EDT

[#31]

A wealthy man on his death bed called his three best friends–– his doctor, his priest, and his lawyer–– to make a final request. "Who knows what I will find on the other side? Just to be sure, I am giving you each one hundred thousand dollars and I ask that you place an envelope with that amount in my casket." All three took the money and agreed to fulfill his wish.

He died soon thereafter and at the funeral each friend slipped an envelope into the casket. After the burial, the three walked together from the grave. The doctor said, "My friends, I have a confession to make; since the hospital was short of funds for treating the poor I only put 80, 000 dollars in the envelope and donated the other 20, 000 to our indigent fund." The priest then said, "I too have to confess that I gave 50,000 dollars to the homeless and only put fifty thousand in the casket."

The lawyer looked both his friends straight in the eye and said, "I am astonished and deeply disappointed that you failed to keep your solemn promise to our dear departed friend. I want you to know that I placed in his coffin my personal check for the full 100,000 dollars."

Posted: 5/1/2012 11:52:10 AM EDT

[#32]

Quoted:
You're doing it wrong. First couple of times I hired lawyers, I got fucked. You need to make friends with attorneys and have them refer you. Those that advertise are typically not the ones you want to work with.

Are you sure you know what a lawyer is?

ETA: Either that or you need to refer me to your law frim

Posted: 5/1/2012 11:56:12 AM EDT

[#33]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Supply and demand......

Actually the OP has a good point, apparently the law schools are churning out so many attorneys that many of them can't find jobs. So, you'd think that would bring the cost down.

But most of them fucking suck.

Posted: 5/1/2012 11:56:24 AM EDT

[#34]

Quoted:
Worked at a lawfirm for a year. The only lawyers making less than $100k a year, were junior (first year) lawyers that had no clients yet. The pay scale went from $175k/year to $1.5m a year.

Where's this firm at, I'd like to apply for a position. I made $45-60k my first 3 years, before changing careers.

ETA: I was billed out at $175/hr.

Posted: 5/1/2012 11:56:42 AM EDT

[#35]

As a guy who just got divorced, my 30 year experienced, pro, kick ass lawyer who charged $300 an hour was nothing compared to the $1500+ a month (for possibly the rest of my LIFE) in alimony he saved me!

There are things you get what you pay for. I think the key is getting some good recommendations. I'm sure if you randomly pick out of the phone book there's the same distribution of skilled lawyers like there are skilled workers in any field.

Posted: 5/1/2012 12:00:54 PM EDT

[#36]

A good lawyer is worth it.

Posted: 5/1/2012 12:01:59 PM EDT

[#37]

Quoted:
Greasin palms is pricey
Dotors make it , lawyers take it

Looks like someone bombed on the LSAT

Posted: 5/1/2012 12:05:09 PM EDT

[#38]

Quoted:
Supply and demand......

and it weeds out dumb lawsuits.

like when people swear they're going to get a lawyer because they couldn't be the speshul exception to say.. a coupon policy... you know it's just bullshit and they're bluffing. But if a lawyer was dirt cheap... a lot of them would try. and that just wastes the lawyer's time.

Posted: 5/1/2012 12:08:04 PM EDT

[#39]

I don't know. I pay 0.00 for free 24/7 legal advice. Actually my lawyer pays ME. He paid for my diapers, food, clothing and helps me out with college.

Posted: 5/1/2012 12:14:51 PM EDT

[#40]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Supply and demand......

Actually the OP has a good point, apparently the law schools are churning out so many attorneys that many of them can't find jobs. So, you'd think that would bring the cost down.

Yes but many of those recent grads are out of work. I graduated in 2009 and it was a miracle I found employment within 6 months of graduating. My first job was doing oil and gas lease reviews at a bank. Many of my class mates did not get jobs at law firms and in stead went to work for banks and oth organizations. So while there are lawyers being churned out of law school, there are not many being added to the pool of experienced litigation lawyers.

Bottom line is that someone is paying $250/ hr or they wouldn't charge it. Lawyers don't get paid if they don't have clients. Also, $250/hr is cheap IMO.

Posted: 5/1/2012 12:22:07 PM EDT

[#41]

Why do lawyers charge so much? Because people don't understand the law:

Thread dealing with unionization

That thread is full of people who think they can commit Unfair Labor Practices and don't think the NLRA applies in their state.

It the same reason why contractors hate dealing with people who have "handy-manned" their homes.

Posted: 5/1/2012 12:22:41 PM EDT

[#42]

Because people pay it. Simple supply and demand.

Posted: 5/1/2012 12:31:43 PM EDT

[#43]

Quoted:
Because people pay it. Simple supply and demand.

Because people have no choice but to pay it. The lawyers have created a legal system that requires you to use their services, you have no fucking choice.

If I sue you for farting in the elevator while Im in it for offending my nasal sensitivity, you have no choice but to hire a lawyer to defend you.....that or lose the stupid ass lawsuit by default for not responding. They created a whole new language to conduct their business in so unless you are one of the chosen few you cant even understand what the fuck they are talking about.

They are a plague, vermin and parasites that feed off the living.

Then they act so offended and site, "You wont say that when YOU need a lawyer!!"

Yeah dipshit, only because of the laws that the legal community implemented on us that forces us to use their services!!!

Thats like cops breaking into your home and then patting themselves on the back for responding to the burglary.

Scumbags.....each and every one.

Posted: 5/1/2012 12:32:18 PM EDT

[#44]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Worked at a lawfirm for a year. The only lawyers making less than $100k a year, were junior (first year) lawyers that had no clients yet. The pay scale went from $175k/year to $1.5m a year.

Where's this firm at, I'd like to apply for a position. I made $45-60k my first 3 years, before changing careers.

ETA: I was billed out at $175/hr.

I was admitted 6 months ago and I'll make under $100,000 this year doing Plaintiff work at a very small boutique firm. My little brother graduates in a few months and already has an insurance defense job lined up at a medium sized regional firm where he'll start at $134,000.

How much a lawyer makes depends hugely on what type of law they practice, how big a firm they work at, how big a city they work in, etc...

Posted: 5/1/2012 12:32:42 PM EDT

[#45]

I think my lawyer charges me 175$/h. That's not bad.

Posted: 5/1/2012 12:34:26 PM EDT

[#46]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Because people pay it. Simple supply and demand.

Because people have no choice but to pay it. The lawyers have created a legal system that requires you to use their services, you have no fucking choice.

If I sue you for farting in the elevator while Im in it for offending my nasal sensitivity, you have no choice but to hire a lawyer to defend you.....that or lose the stupid ass lawsuit by default for not responding. They created a whole new language to conduct their business in so unless you are one of the chosen few you cant even understand what the fuck they are talking about.

They are a plague, vermin and parasites that feed off the living.

Then they act so offended and site, "You wont say that when YOU need a lawyer!!"

Yeah dipshit, only because of the laws that the legal community implemented on us that forces us to use their services!!!

Thats like cops breaking into your home and then patting themselves on the back for responding to the burglary.

Scumbags.....each and every one.

Posted: 5/1/2012 12:34:28 PM EDT

[#47]

It has reached critical mass. There are a huge number of law school grads who can't find a job. Many will try to fly solo. Many will remain unemployed or go to another profession.

The schools keep cranking them out. But the profession has a smaller exit rate than entrance rate. No mandatory retirement age. You can still practice if you can still sit behind a desk.

Just sayin'. If you are thinking of getting in the legal profession; do you homework first.

Posted: 5/1/2012 12:34:58 PM EDT

[#48]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Because people pay it. Simple supply and demand.

Because people have no choice but to pay it. The lawyers have created a legal system that requires you to use their services, you have no fucking choice.

If I sue you for farting in the elevator while Im in it for offending my nasal sensitivity, you have no choice but to hire a lawyer to defend you.....that or lose the stupid ass lawsuit by default for not responding. They created a whole new language to conduct their business in so unless you are one of the chosen few you cant even understand what the fuck they are talking about.

They are a plague, vermin and parasites that feed off the living.

Then they act so offended and site, "You wont say that when YOU need a lawyer!!"

Yeah dipshit, only because of the laws that the legal community implemented on us that forces us to use their services!!!

Thats like cops breaking into your home and then patting themselves on the back for responding to the burglary.

Scumbags.....each and every one.

Tell us then, what is your brilliant idea for the operation of the legal system?

Posted: 5/1/2012 12:37:00 PM EDT

[#49]

Quoted:

Because people have no choice but to pay it. The lawyers have created a legal system that requires you to use their services, you have no fucking choice.

If I sue you for farting in the elevator while Im in it for offending my nasal sensitivity, you have no choice but to hire a lawyer to defend you.....that or lose the stupid ass lawsuit by default for not responding. They created a whole new language to conduct their business in so unless you are one of the chosen few you cant even understand what the fuck they are talking about.

They are a plague, vermin and parasites that feed off the living.

Then they act so offended and site, "You wont say that when YOU need a lawyer!!"

Yeah dipshit, only because of the laws that the legal community implemented on us that forces us to use their services!!!

Thats like cops breaking into your home and then patting themselves on the back for responding to the burglary.

Scumbags.....each and every one.

Interesting.

Posted: 5/1/2012 12:37:00 PM EDT

[#50]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Because people pay it. Simple supply and demand.

Because people have no choice but to pay it. The lawyers have created a legal system that requires you to use their services, you have no fucking choice.

If I sue you for farting in the elevator while Im in it for offending my nasal sensitivity, you have no choice but to hire a lawyer to defend you.....that or lose the stupid ass lawsuit by default for not responding. They created a whole new language to conduct their business in so unless you are one of the chosen few you cant even understand what the fuck they are talking about.

They are a plague, vermin and parasites that feed off the living.

Then they act so offended and site, "You wont say that when YOU need a lawyer!!"

Yeah dipshit, only because of the laws that the legal community implemented on us that forces us to use their services!!!

Thats like cops breaking into your home and then patting themselves on the back for responding to the burglary.

Scumbags.....each and every one.

Yeah, but how do you REALLY feel? Don't hold back!

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Why do lawyers charge so much? (Page 2 of 6)

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