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Army_of_One
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Posted: 3/31/2012 1:52:31 PM
Originally Posted By jrzy:

Originally Posted By Superluckycat:
In my opinion that gun was stolen from you. I would call the cops asap.

BS
It's a civil mistake not criminal
There has to be intent to commit a crime I believe.
And your opinion was/is worth what we paid you for it.


The irony.
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Posted: 3/31/2012 1:55:29 PM
Originally Posted By ecgRN:
In for outcome....


Yep ....................

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Posted: 3/31/2012 1:57:53 PM
You don't need a lawyer for small claims.

Originally Posted By AbleArcher:
Originally Posted By Sheddy:
Originally Posted By ISED8U:
Bullshit. Tell them to replace it with a NIB shotgun of the exact same model. If they refuse, take them to court.


I agree with Oscar.


No offense meant to the OP, but beings as he needs a pawn in the first place I think a lawyer may be out of the question.


guntrk
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Posted: 3/31/2012 1:58:54 PM
I think they did the Shit on purpose,(thought you would be an easy mark and go along w/story).

Tell them to replace it with a NIB model.

I would not let them give me a M2 which was finger fucked by everyone with their dick beaters.
"We used to laugh at Grandpa when he'd head off and go fishing. But we wouldn't be laughing that evening when he'd come back with some whore he picked up in town." --Jack Handy
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Posted: 3/31/2012 1:59:47 PM
Originally Posted By TheNamelessOne:
go back and demand your gun or an M4.


I'd start making phone calls to authorities Now!
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Posted: 3/31/2012 2:06:52 PM

Originally Posted By LurchAddams:
Your shotgun could be used in a crime someday. You need to be able to honestly say that you sold/transferred it to the pawn shop.

Go and talk to the owner one last time. Decide what it will take for you to be satisfied. Maybe they can throw in a handgun or something. Show them that you are a reasonable guy. Get the name of the person that told you it was sold by a "new guy”.
If you aren’t getting what you want, show them drafts of a few documents that you have prepared in advance:
-Your letter to the ATF. Tell the ATF that you are concerned that your shotgun may be used in a crime someday, and that you no longer have possession of your shotgun because the pawn shop has admitted that they erroneously transferred it to someone unknown to you (possibly a criminal) in error.
-Small Claims Court filing. Fewer details than your original post. Two or three sentences maximum. Include the name of the person that told you it was erroneously sold by a "new guy”. You can explain the rest to the judge during a ten minute trial.
-Gunbroker sales of comparable shotguns. Like maybe this one.
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=274407855

Tell them that you've been to small claims court before, and you don't like it because you always have to wait around for a couple of hours.

If the pawn shop won’t settle, send the letter to the ATF, and file the Small Claims suit. Small Claims courts hear these issues all the time. It’s really easy. Your pay taxes to support this court.
You don't need a lawyer in Small Claims court. Just tell the judge that you're out $xxx and prove it to the judge. Bring something like printouts of some Gunbroker sales that show sales of comparable shotguns. The judge won’t care about ATF and firearm regulations, but he’ll just be concerned with financial damages.

Good luck.

This is some excellent advice.

I've been to small claims several times. I have never failed to prevail and have actually gotten a bit more than I asked for a couple of times because the judge added in my expenses to file and gas money. In this case all you will really need is your copy of the pawn contract. The shop had/has an obligation to abide by the contract. They didn't so they will lose. You can bring a lawyer to small claims but it will not help one bit. Smalls claims is pretty much devoid of lawyerese bullshit.

You will hand the bailiff, clerk or maybe even the judge your copy of the contract, briefly tell the judge what happened and answer any questions he may ask. He mightl ask the pawn shop guy what he's got to say and he might not, especially with a contract that is pretty much cut and dried, plus his legal obligations under state law. You will really only have two problems. Making service of the lawsuit. And collecting. I imagine a lien slapped on his store and merchandise will get his attention on that deal. You will have to use a lawyer for the lien but can also lien for recovery charges.

Unless the pawn shop owner is a complete idiot he'll do whatever it takes to make this right once he has the lawsuit in hand. Especially if you back this up with letters to the licensing authority and the state AG's office. They really do take stuff like this seriously.
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flinch08
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Posted: 3/31/2012 2:12:41 PM
Originally Posted By NoStockBikes:

Originally Posted By prodos8:
It was supposed to be a 90-day loan at 180% apr. But since I paid it off within a week I only had to pay the minimum finance charge of $15 per Texas pawn regulations.

I'm thinking about reporting them to the state authorities, since they must have a state issued pawn license. I'm not really sure what the local police or ATF could do.

I don't think they can get me a new M1 since they were discontinued several years ago by Benelli. Maybe a cash settlement would be my best option, then I could get a used M1 and some extra money too. I just want a fair settlement with them.


Less than a week? I thought they even had to sit on stuff for a while to make sure it wasn't stolen.


Something ain't quite right. They have fucked up in a couple different ways. New gun. RFN! Or I call the law. This is one of those few times in life where it really pays to be an asshole. They need to understand that this is not going away and you do not play nice. I have friends who work in a very productive pawnshop and have a hard time believing this was a mistake. "New Guy"? Fucking new guy doesn't pull shit from stock. Management decides what comes to the front of the store. Not some fucking new guy. In less than a week? Don't fucking talk to me like I'm stupid or a fucking kid. Not to mention M1 is no longer made. Plenty on Gunbroker and I'm sure Buds could hunt up one.

That said, life is alot better when the money is in front of the bills.

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flinch08
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Posted: 3/31/2012 2:14:48 PM
Originally Posted By Phil_A_Steen:
Originally Posted By Slavac:

Originally Posted By Phil_A_Steen:
If the whole shotgun is worth let's say $900, then how is a lawyer going to take this on contingency? That $900 is one hour of partner time in my firm. There's not enough here to make it worth anyone's time.

Again you're assuming he will only sue for the $900.


Not to burst your bubble, but that's all he's getting. There's no pain and suffering or punitive damages for a shotgun lost in pawn.


That gun is no longer made. Replacement cost would be higher than what it was purchased for in 2004.

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Posted: 3/31/2012 2:18:56 PM
Originally Posted By psytechguy:
The pawnshop is full of shit.

Someone there wanted your Benelli.

Merchandise that's had a loan taken out on it sits in the back of the shop. Employees only.
How'd the "customer" who the "fuckin' new guy" sold your M1 to even get to see it?

The fact that it'd only been in there a week on a 60 day loan before disappearing raises a lot of suspicion as well.
A lot of folks will take loans on very nice items over and over again and always come back for them. I really doubt
the assumption was made that you'd never come back for it. IMHO this is a bold face attempt to steal your gun.

I'd tell them to get your shotgun back or reap the consequences. Previous posters have listed who you need to contact.

I'd like to know what pawnshop this is. IM me if you like.


Which Pawn Shop? This doesn't seem like an 'easy mistake' by the pawn broker.
It is possible someone at that pawnshop wanted your shotgun. Your loan was on the books for only two weeks.
I am certain you will get this worked out to your satisfaction. You are entitiled to recieve equal or more for your loss from the pawnbroker.

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Posted: 3/31/2012 2:26:11 PM
No reason to get stupid over this. Mistakes happen. If they don't have an alternative you are interested in, then ask for a direct replacement or the retail cash value of the firearm.

Don't bother with "calling authorities" or "taking it to court" as some people have suggested until the Pawn Shop draws a line in the sand. From your original post it only sounds like they made an offer, not an ultimatum. Is this correct? Only small individuals skip past the part where you try to work things out amicably and go straight to the nuclear option.

Once you get the replacement, you should consider selling it anyway and getting your finances in order. Paycheck to paycheck is an expensive way to live.
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Posted: 3/31/2012 2:28:43 PM
Originally Posted By Tomislav:
Should probably worry more about getting your personal finances in good order than business practices of pawn shops.


+1

Pawn Shops are scum. The owner of one near me was convicted of knowingly receiving and selling stolen goods. Your first order of business should be to build up 6 months money reserve for expenses.
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C-4
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Posted: 3/31/2012 2:31:09 PM
Originally Posted By Tomislav:

Originally Posted By DaffyDuck:
Originally Posted By Tomislav:
Should probably worry more about getting your personal finances in good order than business practices of pawn shops.


Gun owners really stick together don't they? I'm sure your insight into this matter is really appreciated.




Thanks!

If a person has a very nice shotgun, like a Benelli, but not a few hundred bucks in savings, well, that's fucked up. Better to have a WASR-10 and a 642 and a healthy balance sheet than Benellis and whatnot and be visiting pawn shops when you need a buck.


Amen. Just because it's advice the OP may not want to hear doesn't mean it isn't great advice.
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Posted: 3/31/2012 2:32:18 PM
I doubt they'll let you, but I'd want to see a 4473 to make sure they didn't sell your gun off-book to some shitbag.

Hang onto your receipt showing transfer to them forever
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Posted: 3/31/2012 2:40:41 PM
Tell them you want a replacement that is exactly what you left there. If they can't, or won't, tell them you will report the firearm as missing to the ATF.

You may want to alert ATF to this, anyway, so that something that might have your name on it doesn't appear later at a crime scene.
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Posted: 3/31/2012 2:44:19 PM
[Last Edit: 3/31/2012 2:44:52 PM by Palm]
You hold all of the cards. The pawn shop is ran by people who can negotiate and they are working you. Send them a letter outlining the events as they took place. State the tort (wrong) committed against you, and then tell them the remedied you want. Remember it is up to them to make you whole, so only ask for what it takes to make you whole. Don't forget to include monies to cover your expenses that include time and transportation. Send them the letter registered mail. If they don't respond by the tenth day file in small claims court. The JP courts in Texas are good and they will not put up with the BS from the pawn shop. The pawn shop knows this so they will not let it go that far. By serving them written notice you have perfected your claim and the pawn shop will know and understand it. They will settle as quickly as they can and put it behind them.
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Posted: 3/31/2012 2:47:12 PM
Originally Posted By woodsie:
No reason to get stupid over this. Mistakes happen. If they don't have an alternative you are interested in, then ask for a direct replacement or the retail cash value of the firearm.

Don't bother with "calling authorities" or "taking it to court" as some people have suggested until the Pawn Shop draws a line in the sand. From your original post it only sounds like they made an offer, not an ultimatum. Is this correct? Only small individuals skip past the part where you try to work things out amicably and go straight to the nuclear option.

Once you get the replacement, you should consider selling it anyway and getting your finances in order. Paycheck to paycheck is an expensive way to live.


This was not a mistake and people who run pawn shops do not play nice.

Caution: Potty training in session!
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Posted: 3/31/2012 2:48:34 PM
You- pawn shop owner or manager I am giving you (24) hours from right now to get back my shotgun. You know that you have broken the law in selling my shotgun so quick. If you don't I will be forced to go to the authorities and I know you don't want ATF trouble. I will be in tomorrow to pick it back up. I will not take any other gun in it's place and I will check the serial number of the gun I pick up tomorrow. This is not my problem, this is yours that your employee created for you and now you have to fix the problem.

I will only "settle" for "my" gun back.

I'll see you tomorrow at the same time.

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Posted: 3/31/2012 3:03:05 PM
Originally Posted By Slavac:

Originally Posted By Phil_A_Steen:
If the whole shotgun is worth let's say $900, then how is a lawyer going to take this on contingency? That $900 is one hour of partner time in my firm. There's not enough here to make it worth anyone's time.

Again you're assuming he will only sue for the $900.


And why should they pay more than the $900???
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Posted: 3/31/2012 3:05:25 PM
[Last Edit: 3/31/2012 3:07:39 PM by swingset]
Pawn shop is on the hook for this. Make 'em pay or make it right.

And, more importantly, make sure you start looking hard at your buying decisions. If you're pawning guns, you're in bad shape so don't make it worse by continuing to dig.
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Posted: 3/31/2012 3:10:14 PM
Tagged for outcome.
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Posted: 3/31/2012 3:13:32 PM
Originally Posted By woodsie:
No reason to get stupid over this. Mistakes happen. If they don't have an alternative you are interested in, then ask for a direct replacement or the retail cash value of the firearm.

Don't bother with "calling authorities" or "taking it to court" as some people have suggested until the Pawn Shop draws a line in the sand. From your original post it only sounds like they made an offer, not an ultimatum. Is this correct? Only small individuals skip past the part where you try to work things out amicably and go straight to the nuclear option.

Once you get the replacement, you should consider selling it anyway and getting your finances in order. Paycheck to paycheck is an expensive way to live.

Mistakes do happen, but in a regulated business like a pawn shop with a FFL it should never happen. I think that is why the OP was made an offer to resolve the issue. I would recommend that if you feel you are being lied to, you should contact the Police and let them know. This might be a common problem with this pawn broker. If you loose your cool trying to deal with the situation yourself, they could easily end up calling the cops on you and saying you sold them the gun.

It is true they have no reason to show you the 4473, but if you know one is required and has the buyers info. I would simply ask them if they know who bought your gun, when it was sold and the sale price ( don't even mention 4473). They can basiclly answer two ways, they don't know who bought the gun or when it was sold. Second option they say we have the information, but can't give it to you because it is private. If the answer we don't know, I would tell them you need a few more days to consider their offer and walk out and contact the Police/ ATF.
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Posted: 3/31/2012 3:24:16 PM
"Mr. pawnshop owner, I understand you can't legally show me the 4473 to prove what you are saying happened, so maybe I could get an ATF agent to come in here, look at the form, and verify it for me".

"Aghh, aghh, lets talk."
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Posted: 3/31/2012 3:34:41 PM
Originally Posted By davewvu86:
Originally Posted By Slavac:

Originally Posted By Phil_A_Steen:
If the whole shotgun is worth let's say $900, then how is a lawyer going to take this on contingency? That $900 is one hour of partner time in my firm. There's not enough here to make it worth anyone's time.

Again you're assuming he will only sue for the $900.


And why should they pay more than the $900???


His time and all extra associated expenses related to solving this matter. They absolutely should be doing more than simply getting his gun back.

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Posted: 3/31/2012 3:42:36 PM
Originally Posted By flinch08:
Originally Posted By woodsie:
No reason to get stupid over this. Mistakes happen. If they don't have an alternative you are interested in, then ask for a direct replacement or the retail cash value of the firearm.

Don't bother with "calling authorities" or "taking it to court" as some people have suggested until the Pawn Shop draws a line in the sand. From your original post it only sounds like they made an offer, not an ultimatum. Is this correct? Only small individuals skip past the part where you try to work things out amicably and go straight to the nuclear option.

Once you get the replacement, you should consider selling it anyway and getting your finances in order. Paycheck to paycheck is an expensive way to live.


This was not a mistake and people who run pawn shops do not play nice.



That's for the OP to decide.

Nothing I said takes the nuclear option off the table. You have nothing to lose by trying to work it out first and nothing to gain by going nuclear first. How hard is it to say "This is what I need to make things right" and go from there? If the shop is willing to be reasonable then going nuclear first is only going to make your life more difficult for no good fucking reason. If they aren't willing to be reasonable then you are out nothing because you always have the nuclear option.

I honestly feel sorry for anyone whose first course of action is to fly off the handle and create unnecessary drama in their lives. It's just not one of the character traits normally associated with successful people.

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Posted: 3/31/2012 3:48:00 PM
Originally Posted By woodsie:
Originally Posted By flinch08:
Originally Posted By woodsie:
No reason to get stupid over this. Mistakes happen. If they don't have an alternative you are interested in, then ask for a direct replacement or the retail cash value of the firearm.

Don't bother with "calling authorities" or "taking it to court" as some people have suggested until the Pawn Shop draws a line in the sand. From your original post it only sounds like they made an offer, not an ultimatum. Is this correct? Only small individuals skip past the part where you try to work things out amicably and go straight to the nuclear option.

Once you get the replacement, you should consider selling it anyway and getting your finances in order. Paycheck to paycheck is an expensive way to live.


This was not a mistake and people who run pawn shops do not play nice.



That's for the OP to decide.

Nothing I said takes the nuclear option off the table. You have nothing to lose by trying to work it out first and nothing to gain by going nuclear first. How hard is it to say "This is what I need to make things right" and go from there? If the shop is willing to be reasonable then going nuclear first is only going to make your life more difficult for no good fucking reason. If they aren't willing to be reasonable then you are out nothing because you always have the nuclear option.

I honestly feel sorry for anyone whose first course of action is to fly off the handle and create unnecessary drama in their lives. It's just not one of the character traits normally associated with successful people.



Plus they might work with you more if you do try it nice from the start.

It could be a legitimate mistake. Give them a chance to make it right.
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Posted: 3/31/2012 3:49:03 PM

Originally Posted By substandard:

Originally Posted By WGPKlaus:
Originally Posted By prodos8:
It was supposed to be a 90 60-day loan at 180% apr. But since I paid it off within a week I only had to pay the minimum finance charge of $15 per Texas pawn regulations.

I'm thinking about reporting them to the state authorities, since they must have a state issued pawn license. I'm not really sure what the local police or ATF could do.

I don't think they can get me a new M1 since they were discontinued several years ago by Benelli. Maybe a cash settlement would be my best option, then I could get a used M1 and some extra money too. I just want a fair settlement with them.



Before threatening them with any action, try and resolve it in a "friendly" manner. Explain you know that shit happens, and that you're not wanting to push this beyond dealing directly with them, and that you're not interested in the M2, and suggest that they pay fair market value in compensation for your M1? Do they have other guns you may be interested in? something you could leverage an item that may be worth more than your M1 that they would be willing to offer? Seriously, try the friendly approach first and if you seem to be getting nowhere, take it to the next level.

IMHO, this is excellent advice.

That is the most unrealistic thing I've ever heard. Clearly you want to escalate the situation and be as unreasonable as possible.
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Posted: 3/31/2012 3:54:34 PM
Nice? I am not playing nice with someone that just stole my expensive shotgun.
substandard
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Posted: 3/31/2012 3:55:22 PM

Originally Posted By woodsie:
Originally Posted By flinch08:
Originally Posted By woodsie:
No reason to get stupid over this. Mistakes happen. If they don't have an alternative you are interested in, then ask for a direct replacement or the retail cash value of the firearm.

Don't bother with "calling authorities" or "taking it to court" as some people have suggested until the Pawn Shop draws a line in the sand. From your original post it only sounds like they made an offer, not an ultimatum. Is this correct? Only small individuals skip past the part where you try to work things out amicably and go straight to the nuclear option.

Once you get the replacement, you should consider selling it anyway and getting your finances in order. Paycheck to paycheck is an expensive way to live.


This was not a mistake and people who run pawn shops do not play nice.



That's for the OP to decide.

Nothing I said takes the nuclear option off the table. You have nothing to lose by trying to work it out first and nothing to gain by going nuclear first. How hard is it to say "This is what I need to make things right" and go from there? If the shop is willing to be reasonable then going nuclear first is only going to make your life more difficult for no good fucking reason. If they aren't willing to be reasonable then you are out nothing because you always have the nuclear option.

I honestly feel sorry for anyone whose first course of action is to fly off the handle and create unnecessary drama in their lives. It's just not one of the character traits normally associated with successful people.


Words of wisdom.


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Posted: 3/31/2012 3:57:57 PM
I think they sold the gun to George Zimmerman and that is why they can't find the paper work on it.

They knew he would use it to hunt down and kill a 10 year old boy. That the Pope was going to make a Saint.

The Racist Bastards.

PS. Call Police tell them you want an Officer to meet you at the Pawn shop about the thief of and item. Don't discuss it with 911 Operator no matte how much authority they do/not have.

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substandard
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Posted: 3/31/2012 4:01:00 PM

Originally Posted By Windustsearch:
Nice? I am not playing nice with someone that just stole my expensive shotgun.

I would say not so much as being nice, but being calm and collected. You approach them as a calm reasonable person, and there is a good chance the whole ting can be settled quickly in your favor with no unnecessary drama.

There is nothing wrong with saying, "I know mistakes happen, and as I see it you need to either call the buyer and have him return my gun, or you can purchase me a new one and we will call it settled." If they act like an ass, or drag their feet, then start ramping up the nastiness.


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Posted: 3/31/2012 4:05:02 PM
OK, I don't want to be the bearer of bad news, but if the gun was sold, chances are it is now no longer "new in box".

This deserves some kind of compensation, even if you get the gun back.

I own an M1Super90, and believe me, I would really hate to lose it, even if I was compensated financially for the loss. As some one said, "They don't make them anymore!".

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Posted: 3/31/2012 4:08:15 PM
Originally Posted By Army_of_One:
Originally Posted By substandard:

Originally Posted By Superluckycat:
In my opinion that gun was stolen from you. I would call the cops asap.

More than likely the police and the ATF will tell him it is a civil matter


That's precisely why Will from Red Jacket lost his FFL. You can't have weapons unaccounted for.


I am sure they entered it into the bound book and executed a 4473. As far as the ATF goes, it is accouned for. The problem is it repersents a breech of the pawn contract. Civil matter, pretty cut and dried in this case.

He has to be made whole.
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Posted: 3/31/2012 4:18:07 PM
I would be so pissed. It's a blatant breach of contract, and they need to make it right 100%. If they have to find another exact model, then they sure as shit better do it. I would not roll over if I were you.

Contact ATF to cover your ass, contact police to get them involved as well. Contact the pawn shop owner, contact the BBB.
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Posted: 3/31/2012 4:19:35 PM
I would call a 911 operator and ask for their advise. They have 6 weeks of training and therefore authority in all matters, legal and otherwise.



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Posted: 3/31/2012 4:29:56 PM
Originally Posted By GST:
"Mr. pawnshop owner, I understand you can't legally show me the 4473 to prove what you are saying happened, so maybe I could get an ATF agent to come in here, look at the form, and verify it for me".

"Aghh, aghh, lets talk."


Get real, as if the OP has his own ATF agent on retainer.
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SrBenelli
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Posted: 3/31/2012 4:31:32 PM
I own an M1Super90, and believe me, I would really hate to lose it, even if I was compensated financially for the loss. As some one said, "They don't make them anymore!".




This..... mine being an M-1 "Defense", one piece extended mag tube and "HK" marked.


Another vote for being civil... until given a reason NOT to be. I'd say " OK... mistakes happen. Now....correct your mistake. Option one, get my gun back.... in the same condition as it was pawned in. Option two, get me an exact replacement. And option three, what else ya' got worth about a grand?"

If the shop won't immediately agree to any of the three options above...... then call the cops and/or State attorney's office.

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.....................when Glock comes out with their 1911, a whole lotta' Glock people are going to need therapy!
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Posted: 3/31/2012 4:54:29 PM
Originally Posted By jrzy:

Originally Posted By Phil_A_Steen:
If the whole shotgun is worth let's say $900, then how is a lawyer going to take this on contingency? That $900 is one hour of partner time in my firm. There's not enough here to make it worth anyone's time.

When you sue some states allow attorney's fees on top if you prevail, are you sure you're a lawyer?


Really? You find me one state that automatically provides attorney's fees in an action for breach of contract or conversion.

The only exception I am aware of is that fees incurred in attempting to *recover* possession of a converted item are recompensable (California for instance).

Unfortunately, in this case, the purchaser of the shotgun from the pawn shop took it with good title under the state version of UCC 2-403. What that means is that the buyer can never be forced to give up the gun. So there is no action possible to recover the converted item. (For further example, expenses of litigation for monetary damages upon conversion are expressly excluded under the California statute.)

Making it worse in this case, the Texas statute requires the pawnee to undertake an administrative proceeding on recovery prior to suing.
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Posted: 3/31/2012 5:05:49 PM
You owe them the $500 and any interest. Make sure that's covered under any deal you agree with.
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Posted: 3/31/2012 5:08:38 PM
Originally Posted By jeep450:
You- pawn shop owner or manager I am giving you (24) hours from right now to get back my shotgun. You know that you have broken the law in selling my shotgun so quick. If you don't I will be forced to go to the authorities and I know you don't want ATF trouble. I will be in tomorrow to pick it back up. I will not take any other gun in it's place and I will check the serial number of the gun I pick up tomorrow. This is not my problem, this is yours that your employee created for you and now you have to fix the problem.

I will only "settle" for "my" gun back.

I'll see you tomorrow at the same time.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile


And it had better be in the mint condition I dropped it off in.
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Posted: 3/31/2012 5:19:42 PM
[Last Edit: 3/31/2012 5:36:03 PM by magnumtc]
Originally Posted By fxntime:
They absolutely know who bought and has it. If they have a FFL then there had to be a 4473 made out so it's not like it was "lost." Someone in the store likely or a close friend of someone who works there has it and doesn't want to give it up. They figured you were stupid enough to take the M2 in exchange but you didn't. If there isn't a 4473 then there has to be some kind of receipt with the "buyers" info on it.

[notice how it was "the new guy" that made a mistake?]




This is my take as well. Demand to see who it was sold to. I would bet money is the owner, or manager etc of the pawn shop!

Demand another M1 in new condition.

I would definitely get the ATF involved it they still are sticking to the "gun is lost" story.
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Posted: 3/31/2012 5:23:01 PM
Originally Posted By Phil_A_Steen:
Originally Posted By jrzy:

Originally Posted By Phil_A_Steen:
If the whole shotgun is worth let's say $900, then how is a lawyer going to take this on contingency? That $900 is one hour of partner time in my firm. There's not enough here to make it worth anyone's time.

When you sue some states allow attorney's fees on top if you prevail, are you sure you're a lawyer? http://


Really? You find me one state that automatically provides attorney's fees in an action for breach of contract or conversion.

The only exception I am aware of is that fees incurred in attempting to *recover* possession of a converted item are recompensable (California for instance).

Unfortunately, in this case, the purchaser of the shotgun from the pawn shop took it with good title under the state version of UCC 2-403. What that means is that the buyer can never be forced to give up the gun. So there is no action possible to recover the converted item. (For further example, expenses of litigation for monetary damages upon conversion are expressly excluded under the California statute.)

Making it worse in this case, the Texas statute requires the pawnee to undertake an administrative proceeding on recovery prior to suing.


The OP should go ahead and file a Small Claims suit. Let the pawn shop pay a lawyer $300/hour to explain the statute to the judge.
In a worse case, the Small Claims judge will say: "okay, go thru that Administrative proceeding, and if you can't work it out in the Administrative proceeding, come back here again... "

Spending $25 or so and filing a Small Claims suit will let the pawn shop know that he's serious.

I'll bet that most pawn shops get threatened with lawsuits every day or two. They deal with some sleazy people, and hear that sort of crap all the time.
The OP has a legitimate case against the pawn shop, and he seems like reasonable guy. Our civil court system exists to help guys like him.
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Posted: 3/31/2012 5:25:37 PM
It wasn't a mistake. All the stuff that they gave out loans for sat in a backroom until it was forfeited, then and only then is the item moved to the retail floor.

Someone at the pawn shop wanted your shotgun either for themselves or for a buddy.

Your only outlet if the owner refuses to make it right is small claims court. The police are not going to give a shit nor is the atf.

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Posted: 3/31/2012 5:28:20 PM
A FFL doesn't sell a firearm by mistake.
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Posted: 3/31/2012 5:31:28 PM
Originally Posted By AbleArcher:
Originally Posted By Sheddy:
Originally Posted By ISED8U:
Bullshit. Tell them to replace it with a NIB shotgun of the exact same model. If they refuse, take them to court.


I agree with Oscar.


No offense meant to the OP, but beings as he needs a pawn in the first place I think a lawyer may be out of the question.

This^

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Posted: 3/31/2012 5:35:34 PM
Originally Posted By Slavac:
Ask for an exact replacement. If that fails, contact the ATF.


I'd ask for an exact replacement and give them 1 week to do so. If they fail, have some fun with them, see below.

Report Firearms Theft / Loss

Any Federal Firearms Licensee who has knowledge of the theft or loss of any firearms from their inventory must report such theft or loss within 48 hours of discovery to ATF and to the local law enforcement agency. (Regulations at 27 CFR § 478.39a and implementing section 923(g)(6) require that the report of theft or loss be made by telephone and in writing to ATF).

Upon discovery of any theft or loss of any of your firearms:

First, call your local law enforcement agency to report the theft or loss. Contacting the local law enforcement authorities is essential to the quick recovery of firearms taken in a crime. If the firearms are unaccounted for during inventory, you should make it clear to the authorities that there is no evidence of a crime and that the disposition of these firearms is unknown and may stem from a record keeping error.
Second, call the ATF’s Stolen Firearms Program Manager toll free at 1-888-930-9275. They can also assist in the preparation of the Theft / Loss Report for submission. ATF will work with the local law enforcement authorities investigating the theft.
Third, complete the report form (ATF Form 3310.11) and attach any continuation sheets necessary (ATF Form 3310.11A) and mail it to ATF’s National Tracing Center. Be sure to submit the original form(s) to ATF and retain copies for your records.





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Posted: 3/31/2012 5:40:09 PM
If you don't report it then they can continue to do the bait and switch like they did on you! Id give a gun shop
some slack. A pawn shop Not so much!
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Posted: 3/31/2012 5:42:25 PM
Originally Posted By AbleArcher:
Originally Posted By Sheddy:
Originally Posted By ISED8U:
Bullshit. Tell them to replace it with a NIB shotgun of the exact same model. If they refuse, take them to court.


I agree with Oscar.


No offense meant to the OP, but beings as he needs a pawn in the first place I think a lawyer may be out of the question.


Thats why they have small claims court..

...but I'm thinkin' the phone call from the ATF office to the pawnshop owner will speed things up.
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Posted: 3/31/2012 5:43:27 PM
[Last Edit: 3/31/2012 5:51:04 PM by Stokes]
Sounds like it's a big outfit, and the real chance of an employee doing something shady is high. If they have a M2 at another location, they're not a single store, mom and pop type place where the owner is all giddy about stealing this shotgun.

So, the idea that a 'new' employee, or an employee that is acting outside of company policy (and contractual obligations) is high. The chances that this was the decision of someone of authority within the pawnshop are slim.

But, now the shop has to make it right. As others have said This is not a criminal issue. This is a civil issue. If you call the cops or the ATF, you'll get nothing from them. You people that think otherwise and are ripe with righteous indignation have no experience in the real world.

To reiterate some of the good advise here...
1) Don't go in with the attitude that they stole from you and now owe you 2 quarts of blood. Someone in the store fucked up, and someone else higher up the chain is going to make it up.
2) Negotiate with them, save the nuclear options for later. Especially since the nuclear options will limit your restitution.

I'll bet that if you tell them you want the M2, any one handgun in the case, and your $15, they'll give it to you just to get you out of their hair. If you don't want the M2 ask them for $1500-2000 in store credit (on their margins, they'd probably still come out without a loss). If you do go nuclear, and take them to court, you'll probably only get what the judge thinks the M1 was worth, and I'd bet dollars to donuts he won't give a fuck if it's NIB or if it's discontinued. You'll probably get the equivalent of the M2 and not the extra gun or other item they'd freely give you keeping out of court. Keep in mind that since they've already offered to work with you (by giving you the M2), if you ask for too much, a judge or administrate adjudicator might not be so apt to give you much more, as you'll look unreasonable.
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