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Link Posted: 3/21/2012 6:58:25 PM EST
Can I film the police while they are reading my plate?
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Link Posted: 3/21/2012 7:00:50 PM EST
Originally Posted By tc556guy:
The plate readers aren't linking to DMV with every plate they read. They're just a technologically updated version of the old "hot sheet"

. They read the characters and compare them to an internal list of suspended and stolen vehicles that gets downloaded from DMV.

As for the OP, figure out the differences between "probable cause" and "reasonable suspicion".

To answer your question, officially we need a reason to run your plate. An observed violation, etc.

Originally Posted By scott917:
as it has been mentioned above that no PC is needed to run your LP number.

there is a reason not to just run numbers b/c you can. what if you are a LEO on the end of your shift all is well and you are ready to go home in 15 min. you run the plate number on the car ahead of you and it comes back they are public enemy number one. you attempt to stop the car to apprehend said subject and then all hell breaks loose. when you run the number isn't the LEO a little obligated to make the stop? what if he simply wanted to go home? i don't know how many would admit to it, but i bet there are a few that would or have learned to resist running LP numbers just for the hell of it at the end of their shifts.


By the end of your shift you're busy trying to wrap up loose ends to past calls, not create new ones.



That's going to depend on which system the agency runs. The Youtube bid for Long Beach PD showcases how they not only run it against the hot sheet, wants/warrants/POI's, but also saves the image with a time/date/image/gps location of the cruiser which is downloaded at the end of the shift for later use in criminal cases. If a single car (or light pole traffic camera) reads 10,000 plates a day the possibility for abuse is quite high, let alone a tempting target for companies who would value that data and pay a strapped department for it.
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Link Posted: 3/21/2012 7:08:50 PM EST
Originally Posted By tc556guy:
Originally Posted By doc_Zox:
Related question
The police have a networked work station.They can pull all this data.
Why do they need to see your registration card & proof of insurance any more?


Because the network isn'ta s reliable as you seem to think.


But a computer network is good enough for LEO's to pull people over, isn't it?

Not picking on you tonight, just had to point out that if registration and insurance networks are too flawed to trust, so are yours I just got a warning letter from my Secretary of State (our DMV) tonight for points and one of the two tickets it listed isn't mine... What if that were parole or probation violation info?
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Link Posted: 3/21/2012 7:12:56 PM EST
Originally Posted By AR15fan:
Originally Posted By mototard:
Originally Posted By scott917:
as it has been mentioned above that no PC is needed to run your LP number.

there is a reason not to just run numbers b/c you can. what if you are a LEO on the end of your shift all is well and you are ready to go home in 15 min. you run the plate number on the car ahead of you and it comes back they are public enemy number one. you attempt to stop the car to apprehend said subject and then all hell breaks loose. when you run the number isn't the LEO a little obligated to make the stop? what if he simply wanted to go home? i don't know how many would admit to it, but i bet there are a few that would or have learned to resist running LP numbers just for the hell of it at the end of their shifts.

anyone care to chime in?

S



Just because the plate comes back to a warrant/revoked/ETC that doesn't mean the officer can make a legal stop.
We still need PC for a traffic stop.

Now if we have a positive ID then that is all the PC we need.


Actually a warrant that is linked to the plate is RS to stop the vehicle. I prefer to find my own RS anyway but there is plenty of case law that says that a active warrant linked to the plate is enough to stop the vehicle.



Yup.

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Link Posted: 3/21/2012 7:31:17 PM EST
Seeing as how they have setups that can automatically run the entire contents of parking lots as they cruise through......, I would say no.
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Link Posted: 3/21/2012 7:32:20 PM EST
Originally Posted By Tomtbo:
Originally Posted By Depidy_Dawg:
That's why we cruise through hotel parking lots on night shift and run plates too.



A hotel parking lot is private property. Any guest or employee has no legal responsibility to display ANY plate while the vehicle is not being operated on a public road.



Even if true, this won't get you a pass if the plate comes back with an issue.
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Link Posted: 3/21/2012 7:36:45 PM EST

Originally Posted By tc556guy:
Originally Posted By Extorris:

"Anybody looking?"
(Haven't heard that over the radio in years due to cell phones)


The PD downtown still canvasses its people over the air for 4 more on an almost daily basis.


FD does that here some morning.


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Link Posted: 3/21/2012 7:46:55 PM EST
Originally Posted By BlueJames:
They dont even need probable cause to search your car or arrest you. They do what they wanna.


NOT TRUE
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Link Posted: 3/21/2012 7:54:28 PM EST
Originally Posted By Maahes:
Since the tag is officially state property - yes they can ascertain if the already gathered information associated with that tag is correct. There is no right to privacy for information which is public.


That is interesting. In Utah the information is not public but a restricted private database. So where an officer is accessing a restricted database they may be required to have probable cause.
I know some states information tied to the license plate is public information (go to the dmv and get it) so in those states probable cause is not needed.
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Link Posted: 3/21/2012 8:58:35 PM EST
I run plates all day long for the officers in our department as they do not have MVT's in their units. That said, The ONLY way I'm allowed to do so is in the performance of Law Enforcement duties at the request of the officer on the scene. Every entry is recorded by your log in and is easiely checked and verified with time matched radio recorders. Running plates in parking lots is a long established practice as thats where a lot of vehicles turn up after being stolen. This thread is funny, I never thought there was this much controversy over police running plates. We've caught a ton of assholes off of -28 checks. Also, my understanding of the auto plate readers was mainly for AMBER Alerts and the like where whole or partial plates were known in an effort to apprehend, not for checking registration and proof of financial responsibility (insurance) information.
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Link Posted: 3/21/2012 9:10:18 PM EST
Originally Posted By devinsdad:
I run plates all day long for the officers in our department as they do not have MVT's in their units. That said, The ONLY way I'm allowed to do so is in the performance of Law Enforcement duties at the request of the officer on the scene. Every entry is recorded by your log in and is easiely checked and verified with time matched radio recorders. Running plates in parking lots is a long established practice as thats where a lot of vehicles turn up after being stolen. This thread is funny, I never thought there was this much controversy over police running plates. We've caught a ton of assholes off of -28 checks. Also, my understanding of the auto plate readers was mainly for AMBER Alerts and the like where whole or partial plates were known in an effort to apprehend, not for checking registration and proof of financial responsibility (insurance) information.


Shit, in Chicago they mail drivers tickets for not having insurance by running their plates off of static mounted cameras..
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Link Posted: 3/21/2012 9:13:29 PM EST
Nope.

scanner or the ol' eyeball and fingers technique it's all the same as long as as soon as it pops up clean the machine forgets the plate and location.
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Link Posted: 3/21/2012 9:22:37 PM EST
Originally Posted By RCJ:
Just post yours here. Someone will help you.


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Link Posted: 3/21/2012 11:49:06 PM EST
In Mesa Az, the cars are wired with cameras that automatically read thousands of plates a day.

Exwife cancelled my insurance, bam!
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Link Posted: 3/22/2012 12:21:57 AM EST
[Last Edit: 3/22/2012 12:34:26 AM EST by tc556guy]
Originally Posted By TheOtherDave:

That's going to depend on which system the agency runs. The Youtube bid for Long Beach PD showcases how they not only run it against the hot sheet, wants/warrants/POI's, but also saves the image with a time/date/image/gps location of the cruiser which is downloaded at the end of the shift for later use in criminal cases. If a single car (or light pole traffic camera) reads 10,000 plates a day the possibility for abuse is quite high, let alone a tempting target for companies who would value that data and pay a strapped department for it.


Yes, thats also something that the units do, but I think you're being paranoid about agencies selling the data...what possible use could any non-LE entity have for knowing that a particular plate was on Main St at 3.23 PM today...or anywhere at any given time. That information has a purely LE use if a wanted vehicle is being sought.

Originally Posted By TheOtherDave:

But a computer network is good enough for LEO's to pull people over, isn't it?

Not picking on you tonight, just had to point out that if registration and insurance networks are too flawed to trust, so are yours I just got a warning letter from my Secretary of State (our DMV) tonight for points and one of the two tickets it listed isn't mine... What if that were parole or probation violation info?


The reader only gives an alert based on the information that it has in its database If that information hasn't been updated recently, the information could be stale. Thats why I always update the database every day I use the LPR, and when I get an alert off the system I do a rolling data request with dispatch to do a confirmation on the plates status before I actually stop the car.

Its a little different to screw up parole and probation information, but even if there was a mistake somehow, the problem would be easy enough to eventually get verified and corrected, even if it wasn't by the side of the road. I've never seen a mistake of the sort that you're worrying about.

Originally Posted By devinsdad:
... This thread is funny, I never thought there was this much controversy over police running plates. We've caught a ton of assholes off of -28 checks...


It's ARF you're talking about. There is an anti-LE bipolar element that posts here that on one hand slaps itself on the back and calls LE a worthless reactionary element, but then on the other hand also hates to see LE have any ability to actually CATCH a bad guy. Of course they say that half the laws shouldn't exist, so their definition of a "bad guy" is very limited......

Originally Posted By justsayin:
Originally Posted By Tomtbo:
Originally Posted By Depidy_Dawg:
That's why we cruise through hotel parking lots on night shift and run plates too.



A hotel parking lot is private property. Any guest or employee has no legal responsibility to display ANY plate while the vehicle is not being operated on a public road.



Even if true, this won't get you a pass if the plate comes back with an issue.


In a parking lot and an unattended parked car, the only thing we'd look at was if we had a stolen vehicle/ stolen plate hit

*post contains personal opinion only and should not be considered information released in an official capacity*
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Link Posted: 3/22/2012 5:36:00 AM EST
Originally Posted By tc556guy:
Originally Posted By TheOtherDave:

That's going to depend on which system the agency runs. The Youtube bid for Long Beach PD showcases how they not only run it against the hot sheet, wants/warrants/POI's, but also saves the image with a time/date/image/gps location of the cruiser which is downloaded at the end of the shift for later use in criminal cases. If a single car (or light pole traffic camera) reads 10,000 plates a day the possibility for abuse is quite high, let alone a tempting target for companies who would value that data and pay a strapped department for it.


Yes, thats also something that the units do, but I think you're being paranoid about agencies selling the data...what possible use could any non-LE entity have for knowing that a particular plate was on Main St at 3.23 PM today...or anywhere at any given time. That information has a purely LE use if a wanted vehicle is being sought.

Originally Posted By TheOtherDave:

But a computer network is good enough for LEO's to pull people over, isn't it?

Not picking on you tonight, just had to point out that if registration and insurance networks are too flawed to trust, so are yours I just got a warning letter from my Secretary of State (our DMV) tonight for points and one of the two tickets it listed isn't mine... What if that were parole or probation violation info?


The reader only gives an alert based on the information that it has in its database If that information hasn't been updated recently, the information could be stale. Thats why I always update the database every day I use the LPR, and when I get an alert off the system I do a rolling data request with dispatch to do a confirmation on the plates status before I actually stop the car.

Its a little different to screw up parole and probation information, but even if there was a mistake somehow, the problem would be easy enough to eventually get verified and corrected, even if it wasn't by the side of the road. I've never seen a mistake of the sort that you're worrying about.


The problem I have with storing images with plates/locations and that info getting into the wrong hands are that it is a basic invasion of privacy. With enough image captures (particularly from traffic cameras where your patterns can be monitored to within a city block anywhere in my metropolitan area) the police can draw a pretty damned good picture of how you live, where you go, what you do. In my opinion, it exceeds the scope of "not having a reasonable expectation of privacy on a public street". The data can be used for political gain and blackmailing as well-say a Sherrif is having a close election and one of his cars has multiple photos of his opponent at a strip club and uses that to his advantage? What if it there were a case where an agency was under scrutiny for excessive force and tried to blackmail the person suing them because they know he visits his girlfriend on the side every day. Hell, my insurance company would love to know where I travel to so they can better charge me for my coverage.

The problem with having these things around is that there's always someone more creative than you and I looking to abuse the system.
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Link Posted: 3/22/2012 5:42:24 AM EST
Originally Posted By TheOtherDave:

The problem I have with storing images with plates/locations and that info getting into the wrong hands are that it is a basic invasion of privacy. With enough image captures (particularly from traffic cameras where your patterns can be monitored to within a city block anywhere in my metropolitan area) the police can draw a pretty damned good picture of how you live, where you go, what you do. In my opinion, it exceeds the scope of "not having a reasonable expectation of privacy on a public street". The data can be used for political gain and blackmailing as well-say a Sherrif is having a close election and one of his cars has multiple photos of his opponent at a strip club and uses that to his advantage? What if it there were a case where an agency was under scrutiny for excessive force and tried to blackmail the person suing them because they know he visits his girlfriend on the side every day. Hell, my insurance company would love to know where I travel to so they can better charge me for my coverage.

The problem with having these things around is that there's always someone more creative than you and I looking to abuse the system.


You have no expectation of privacy in a public area.
You're coming up with soem fairly far-fetched excuses for not having LPRs
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Link Posted: 3/22/2012 6:22:40 AM EST
Originally Posted By justsayin:
Originally Posted By Tomtbo:
Originally Posted By Depidy_Dawg:
That's why we cruise through hotel parking lots on night shift and run plates too.



A hotel parking lot is private property. Any guest or employee has no legal responsibility to display ANY plate while the vehicle is not being operated on a public road.



Even if true, this won't get you a pass if the plate comes back with an issue.



The plate can't come back with an issue if it's not displayed on the vehicle in the parking lot! I brought this up more for motorcycles than for cars; it's common to use a cover when staying in a Motel and waiting out bad weather, and there have been times I've been more concerned about license plate theft than vehicle theft.

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Link Posted: 3/22/2012 6:30:31 AM EST
[Last Edit: 3/22/2012 6:41:02 AM EST by TinLeg]
Originally Posted By tc556guy:


You have no expectation of privacy in a public area.
You're coming up with soem fairly far-fetched excuses for not having LPRs




They are far fetched only if you stick your head in the sand. It may not be happening that way now, but it's only a simple code change away. Unless stopped NOW it WILL happen eventually.


No expectation of privacy does not mean it's OK for the Government to track an individual everywhere they go, store that information, and build a database of their habits, movements, and probabilities for certain activities.
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Link Posted: 3/22/2012 6:31:44 AM EST
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Link Posted: 3/22/2012 6:54:45 AM EST
Originally Posted By TinLeg:

No expectation of privacy does not mean it's OK for the Government to track an individual everywhere they go, store that information, and build a database of their habits, movements, and probabilities for certain activities.


Unless you're a criminal that we've become interested in, we simply don't have the time nor the desire to track you

But keep telling yourself otherwise if it makes you feel wanted.
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Link Posted: 3/22/2012 6:55:33 AM EST

Originally Posted By TinLeg:

No expectation of privacy does not mean it's OK for the Government to track an individual everywhere they go, store that information, and build a database of their habits, movements, and probabilities for certain activities.
*not that I want them to*

but why not?

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Link Posted: 3/22/2012 6:59:06 AM EST
Originally Posted By GraniteClimber:
Lets say you're just driving along and doing nothing illegal and a police officer happens to be following you. If they're bored can they run your license plate just because? Or do they need probable cause first?


Yes, but "probable cause" is a hunch, a suspicion, etc., in this situation. To run plates just because (or to get the address of that hot chick in the Corvette convertible) is an abuse of the system and can bring a repremand.
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Link Posted: 3/22/2012 7:07:45 AM EST
[Last Edit: 3/22/2012 7:21:16 AM EST by TinLeg]
Originally Posted By tc556guy:
Originally Posted By TinLeg:

No expectation of privacy does not mean it's OK for the Government to track an individual everywhere they go, store that information, and build a database of their habits, movements, and probabilities for certain activities.


Unless you're a criminal that we've become interested in, we simply don't have the time nor the desire to track you

But keep telling yourself otherwise if it makes you feel wanted.



You speak for every LE agency in the US?


I didn't know you were such a highly sought resource for police states everywhere.


Your post in and of itself displays a shocking amount of ignorance about how data systems work. It doesn't TAKE time or EFFORT or INTERVENTION on YOUR part. Some code monkey makes some changes to some code, and it's done. You've become a dupe. A data collection guy, driving around in a fancy car with lights and sirens, recording everything and feeding it into a database, where it stays.
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Link Posted: 3/22/2012 7:12:40 AM EST
[Last Edit: 3/22/2012 7:14:32 AM EST by TinLeg]
Originally Posted By bcauz3y:


but why not?




There are degrees of right to privacy, or the legal opposite. Building a database of your daily activities, habits, and so on - simply because they can - goes well over the line. It echoes of a police state.

Frankly, it's not kosher because as a Citizen, it's my right to have that opinion. I need not justify it with Constitutional doctrine, or... anything. However, I believe my view that it is not would be shared by the majority of the Founding Fathers.

It's the practical equivalent of a Policeman standing on every corner checking your DL as you pass by. Such a state of affairs is hardly comforting.
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Link Posted: 3/22/2012 7:13:44 AM EST

Originally Posted By TinLeg:
Originally Posted By bcauz3y:


but why not?




There are degrees of right to privacy, or the legal opposite. Building a database of your daily activities, habits, and so on - simply because they can - goes well over the line. It echoes of a police state.

Frankly, it's not kosher because as a Citizen, it's my right to have that opinion. I need not justify it with Constitutional doctrine, or... anything. However, I believe my view that it is not would be shared by the majority of the Founding Fathers.



Fair enough. I don't want them tracking me either, but they already are.


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Link Posted: 3/22/2012 7:22:08 AM EST
Originally Posted By CCW:
Originally Posted By GraniteClimber:
Lets say you're just driving along and doing nothing illegal and a police officer happens to be following you. If they're bored can they run your license plate just because? Or do they need probable cause first?


Yes, but "probable cause" is a hunch, a suspicion, etc., in this situation. To run plates just because (or to get the address of that hot chick in the Corvette convertible) is an abuse of the system and can bring a repremand.


You defined reasonable suspicion. Enough for a Terry Stop, but not enough for arrest, search, or to obtain a warrant defined by probable cause.
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Link Posted: 3/22/2012 7:44:32 AM EST
Originally Posted By TinLeg:

You speak for every LE agency in the US?


I didn't know you were such a highly sought resource for police states everywhere.


Your post in and of itself displays a shocking amount of ignorance about how data systems work. It doesn't TAKE time or EFFORT or INTERVENTION on YOUR part. Some code monkey makes some changes to some code, and it's done. You've become a dupe. A data collection guy, driving around in a fancy car with lights and sirens, recording everything and feeding it into a database, where it stays.


Agencies across the nation are in rough financial times. They don't have the resources to devote to tracking people for whom there is no associated criminal activity

This holds true pretty much nationwide.

Your post displays a shocking amount of paranoia.
*post contains personal opinion only and should not be considered information released in an official capacity*
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Link Posted: 3/22/2012 7:57:37 AM EST
Originally Posted By tc556guy:
Originally Posted By TinLeg:

You speak for every LE agency in the US?


I didn't know you were such a highly sought resource for police states everywhere.


Your post in and of itself displays a shocking amount of ignorance about how data systems work. It doesn't TAKE time or EFFORT or INTERVENTION on YOUR part. Some code monkey makes some changes to some code, and it's done. You've become a dupe. A data collection guy, driving around in a fancy car with lights and sirens, recording everything and feeding it into a database, where it stays.


Agencies across the nation are in rough financial times. They don't have the resources to devote to tracking people for whom there is no associated criminal activity

This holds true pretty much nationwide.

Your post displays a shocking amount of paranoia.



....And again ignorance with modern data systems. I give up. Your head is so far in the sand you refuse to even use logic.
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Link Posted: 3/22/2012 7:59:25 AM EST
Originally Posted By TinLeg:


....And again ignorance with modern data systems. I give up. Your head is so far in the sand you refuse to even use logic.


Logic? This thread has posters ranting about agencies tracking people wholesale for financial gain. Wheres the logic in that?
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Link Posted: 3/22/2012 8:03:39 AM EST
[Last Edit: 3/22/2012 8:06:24 AM EST by TinLeg]
Originally Posted By tc556guy:
Originally Posted By TinLeg:


....And again ignorance with modern data systems. I give up. Your head is so far in the sand you refuse to even use logic.


Logic? This thread has posters ranting about agencies tracking people wholesale for financial gain. Wheres the logic in that?



I thought we were talking about the possibility of tracking people and building historical data and "profiles" of their movements.


It's entirely possible, even easy. Many of the prerequisites are in place. You refuse to acknowledge or even agree it's an issue. Largely based on your own ignorance about what it takes to make such systems work.
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Link Posted: 3/22/2012 8:08:09 AM EST
Technically speaking, the state owns the license plate on your vehicle. They can do what they want with it.



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Link Posted: 3/22/2012 8:11:16 AM EST
[Last Edit: 3/22/2012 8:13:16 AM EST by Balista]
Originally Posted By tc556guy:
Originally Posted By TinLeg:


....And again ignorance with modern data systems. I give up. Your head is so far in the sand you refuse to even use logic.


Logic? This thread has posters ranting about agencies tracking people wholesale for financial gain. Wheres the logic in that?


And parking-enforcement officers use LPR to collect money –– lots of it. In the first 12 hours after New Haven, Connecticut, deployed a G2 Tactics LPR to crack down on parking violations, the city towed or booted 119 cars, resulting in a $40,000 windfall, according to Bucholz.


Some states link vehicle registration to tax records, so if someone owes taxes, police can "boot" or tow his or her vehicle. Law enforcement will only remove the boot or return the car after the violator has paid his or her taxes. "In New Haven, Conn., in a 12-month period, they collected almost $13 million in back taxes from people who had outstanding debt," says


“These things are a valuable resource for our officers and pay for themselves eventually,” Public Safety Commissioner Richard Wirth said. In fact, license plate readers (LPRs) have brought in $23,750 since the start of the program in 2007, just more than the $22,000 Wirth said the city spent on another LPR this year.

The revenues primarily come to the city when the LPR registers vehicles with more than $350 in parking fines, the threshold for when police will impound the vehicle. That forces scofflaws to pay their tickets, bringing money into the city.

“It definitely pays for itself,” echoed Deputy Public Safety Commissioner Frank Dudla. But he said that is only part of its benefit.


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Link Posted: 3/22/2012 8:14:10 AM EST
Sorry, I'm all out of empathy... but I have plenty of apathy left.

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Link Posted: 3/22/2012 8:14:11 AM EST
Originally Posted By TinLeg:

I thought we were talking about the possibility of tracking people and building historical data and "profiles" of their movements.


It's entirely possible, even easy. Many of the prerequisites are in place. You refuse to acknowledge or even agree it's an issue. Largely based on your own ignorance about what it takes to make such systems work.


If we need to look for a specific vehicle because its been linked to a crime, of course we can search the LPR memory for past contact with that vehicle.

Some people here are trying to say that LEAs are going to start tracking people en masse and selling the data. It's just retarded paranoia.
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Link Posted: 3/22/2012 8:18:19 AM EST
Originally Posted By Balista:

Logic? This thread has posters ranting about agencies tracking people wholesale for financial gain. Wheres the logic in that?


And parking-enforcement officers use LPR to collect money –– lots of it. In the first 12 hours after New Haven, Connecticut, deployed a G2 Tactics LPR to crack down on parking violations, the city towed or booted 119 cars, resulting in a $40,000 windfall, according to Bucholz.


Some states link vehicle registration to tax records, so if someone owes taxes, police can "boot" or tow his or her vehicle. Law enforcement will only remove the boot or return the car after the violator has paid his or her taxes. "In New Haven, Conn., in a 12-month period, they collected almost $13 million in back taxes from people who had outstanding debt," says


“These things are a valuable resource for our officers and pay for themselves eventually,” Public Safety Commissioner Richard Wirth said. In fact, license plate readers (LPRs) have brought in $23,750 since the start of the program in 2007, just more than the $22,000 Wirth said the city spent on another LPR this year.

The revenues primarily come to the city when the LPR registers vehicles with more than $350 in parking fines, the threshold for when police will impound the vehicle. That forces scofflaws to pay their tickets, bringing money into the city.

“It definitely pays for itself,” echoed Deputy Public Safety Commissioner Frank Dudla. But he said that is only part of its benefit.


http://axiomamuse.files.wordpress.com/2011/08/why-alpr1.png[/quote]

Your examples are about finding the people who already owe for past fines and have been dodging the bullet, so to speak

The entity you cited might have some initial large success because of the backlog of scoflaws. Eventually that backlog will dry up. It's like when we implemented the LPR, I was getting a ton of hits because we were the only agency running one in the county and we had a ton of people out there with suspensions. fast forward a few years, several agencies are running LPRs and more of the suspended folks are getting caught sooner. Not so many hits in a day as I used to get when the system was new.
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Link Posted: 3/22/2012 8:20:12 AM EST
Originally Posted By tc556guy:


Some people here are trying to say that LEAs are going to start tracking people en masse and selling the data. It's just retarded paranoia.



I must have missed the posts about selling the data.


I think you're being naive about LEA's tracking people (or vehicles) en masse. The prerequisites are already in place. In many locations all it requires are a few code changes. And quite presumptuous of you to speak as if you know what every LEA in the Country will or will not do with the data they collect.
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Link Posted: 3/22/2012 8:21:23 AM EST
[Last Edit: 3/22/2012 8:23:49 AM EST by TinLeg]
Originally Posted By tc556guy:

The entity you cited might have some initial large success because of the backlog of scoflaws. Eventually that backlog will dry up. It's like when we implemented the LPR, I was getting a ton of hits because we were the only agency running one in the county and we had a ton of people out there with suspensions. fast forward a few years, several agencies are running LPRs and more of the suspended folks are getting caught sooner. Not so many hits in a day as I used to get when the system was new.



You missed the point. The point is that ALL THAT INFORMATION, including information from multiple database (License Plate, -> Registration -> address or SSN -> tax records) systems were leveraged to enable this particular result. You keep saying it won't happen - this is an example of it happening.
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Link Posted: 3/22/2012 8:23:39 AM EST
Originally Posted By TinLeg:

I must have missed the posts about selling the data.


I think you're being naive about LEA's tracking people (or vehicles) en masse. The prerequisites are already in place. In many locations all it requires are a few code changes. And quite presumptuous of you to speak as if you know what every LEA in the Country will or will not do with the data they collect.


I think its paranoia to think LEAs are going to track people en masse. There is simply NO REASON to do so, when we can't even keep up with the call volume now. YOU want to assign some sinister intent. It does matter what agency or part of the country we're talking about, no one has the time for that kind of thing.

But like I said, if it makes you feel wanted......

Yes, the claim was made earlier that cash strapped agencies would sell the information for money
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Link Posted: 3/22/2012 8:25:28 AM EST
Originally Posted By tc556guy:
Originally Posted By TinLeg:

I must have missed the posts about selling the data.


I think you're being naive about LEA's tracking people (or vehicles) en masse. The prerequisites are already in place. In many locations all it requires are a few code changes. And quite presumptuous of you to speak as if you know what every LEA in the Country will or will not do with the data they collect.


I think its paranoia to think LEAs are going to track people en masse. There is simply NO REASON to do so, when we can't even keep up with the call volume now. YOU want to assign some sinister intent. It does matter what agency or part of the country we're talking about, no one has the time for that kind of thing.

But like I said, if it makes you feel wanted......

Yes, the claim was made earlier that cash strapped agencies would sell the information for money


What does call volume or TIME have to do with ANYTHING?


I have assigned no intent to anything in any of my posts.
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Link Posted: 3/22/2012 8:25:45 AM EST
Sorry, I'm all out of empathy... but I have plenty of apathy left.

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Link Posted: 3/22/2012 8:29:18 AM EST
Originally Posted By para_frame:
Originally Posted By Smithy:
um, no. They can run anybody's, anytime.


Not necessarily, a semi local LEO got a three day paid vacation when it was found out he was running plates on classic cars so you could contact the registered owners to try to buy the cars from them.


Yes, any plate can be run at any time for any or no reason. Public view = no expecation of privacy.
That guy got wacked (and properly so) because he wasn't running those plates as part of his job as law enforcement (he was doing it for personal reasons).
In Ohio, doing that is a fifth degree felony.
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Link Posted: 3/22/2012 8:31:26 AM EST
Originally Posted By TinLeg:

What does call volume or TIME have to do with ANYTHING?

I have assigned no intent to anything in any of my posts.


We have limited resources and limited manpower. We are going to devote both to what can give us the best return.

Tracking people who are not the subject of a criminal investigation, when we don't have time for legitimate calls, isn't going to happen.

But I know that there are some who think that every LEA is equipped like something out of a Tom Clancey spy movie with oodles of manpower just sitting around looking for someone to oppress.

Fantasize away, if thats your thing.
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Link Posted: 3/22/2012 8:33:00 AM EST
Originally Posted By Bigshot64:
You have no reasonable expectation of privacy for your license plate.


Considering that is not your property, but rather the state's, this should not be a surprise to anyone.
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Link Posted: 3/22/2012 8:34:14 AM EST
[Last Edit: 3/22/2012 8:42:08 AM EST by TinLeg]
Originally Posted By tc556guy:
Originally Posted By TinLeg:

What does call volume or TIME have to do with ANYTHING?

I have assigned no intent to anything in any of my posts.


We have limited resources and limited manpower. We are going to devote both to what can give us the best return.

Tracking people who are not the subject of a criminal investigation, when we don't have time for legitimate calls, isn't going to happen.

But I know that there are some who think that every LEA is equipped like something out of a Tom Clancey spy movie with oodles of manpower just sitting around looking for someone to oppress.

Fantasize away, if thats your thing.



That's what you don't get. It doesn't take time or manpower. You yourself have posted about running an ALPR. The data collection side requires no time or effort on the part of the officer above what they already perform.

A simple code change and all that data generated by the LPR is stored in a database. Maybe never to be used but queryable days, months, or even years later. Why is this so hard to understand?


The New Haven, Connecticut example above is great - because it shows not only the data that is collected, but how they've (likely) cross referenced several databases in order to achieve their desired result.
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Link Posted: 3/22/2012 8:34:22 AM EST
Cops run license plates ALL OF THE TIME. It is in plain view, so they can do what they want with that info.
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Link Posted: 3/22/2012 8:37:04 AM EST



I haven't read all four pages. But I am a real lawyer and I did not stay at the Holiday Inn last night.

There is no expectation of privacy with respect to a license plate. The license plate pertains to a regulatory scheme designed to promote road safety and as such the police can run any plate at any time.

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Link Posted: 3/22/2012 8:47:20 AM EST
Originally Posted By SmilingBandit:
Originally Posted By Aimless:
Those plate readers are eventually going to,be installed all over so .gov can track anyone's movement without a warrant.


I've been told I was crazy for saying the same thing.

While the conclusion may be accurate, I have a problem with the path they took to get there.


I have never seen a situation like this where the police didn't abuse it.

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Link Posted: 3/22/2012 9:19:40 AM EST
Originally Posted By NorCal_LEO:
Originally Posted By GraniteClimber:
Lets say you're just driving along and doing nothing illegal and a police officer happens to be following you. If they're bored can they run your license plate just because? Or do they need probable cause first?



Of course they can. Just like checking your IP. Here, I will show you.






You seem ... familiar.


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Link Posted: 3/22/2012 9:24:21 AM EST
Originally Posted By Balista:
Originally Posted By tc556guy:
Originally Posted By TinLeg:


....And again ignorance with modern data systems. I give up. Your head is so far in the sand you refuse to even use logic.


Logic? This thread has posters ranting about agencies tracking people wholesale for financial gain. Wheres the logic in that?


And parking-enforcement officers use LPR to collect money –– lots of it. In the first 12 hours after New Haven, Connecticut, deployed a G2 Tactics LPR to crack down on parking violations, the city towed or booted 119 cars, resulting in a $40,000 windfall, according to Bucholz.


Some states link vehicle registration to tax records, so if someone owes taxes, police can "boot" or tow his or her vehicle. Law enforcement will only remove the boot or return the car after the violator has paid his or her taxes. "In New Haven, Conn., in a 12-month period, they collected almost $13 million in back taxes from people who had outstanding debt," says


“These things are a valuable resource for our officers and pay for themselves eventually,” Public Safety Commissioner Richard Wirth said. In fact, license plate readers (LPRs) have brought in $23,750 since the start of the program in 2007, just more than the $22,000 Wirth said the city spent on another LPR this year.

The revenues primarily come to the city when the LPR registers vehicles with more than $350 in parking fines, the threshold for when police will impound the vehicle. That forces scofflaws to pay their tickets, bringing money into the city.

“It definitely pays for itself,” echoed Deputy Public Safety Commissioner Frank Dudla. But he said that is only part of its benefit.


http://axiomamuse.files.wordpress.com/2011/08/why-alpr1.png


While factual, sometimes we are our own worst enemy in the public relations part of the equation. But what folks should realize that there are vast amounts of unpaid fines out there that municipalities can collect on and have no resources to do so. Add in outstanding warrants and the sum is quite large.
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