Did you read the top of this thread and the other thread?

He was entirely overboard, and his hero worship of the Founders is absolutely overboard..

The OP and I rarely get along, but TEH ON NOEZ, how dare someone worship this nation's founders!  He should be a good American and worship some football player........

 

well it's a good thing the founding fathers arn't looked at as politicians much

hence the term founding fathers

they were more than normal men clamoring for power

what modern politicians would you say are equal to the FF then?



 

How about just admitting that the Founders were no different than the politicians we have now? This has already been covered in this thread. They had the same political intrigue that we have, they had the same self-interests as modern politicans. They were no more virtuous or selfless than todays politicians. This is the message that I was trying to impart, and I will not get mired down in a debate on it. i've said my piece about Jrzy needing to do some homework in the assumptions he has about the Founders.

Here's the thing, compromise then and compromise now are two different animals.  For example compromise back then was everyone gives a little and everyone can claim victory.  

 

put someone up for comparison

The fuck they weren't!  There's no possible way that there's any living politician that can even hold a candle to George Washington, Ben Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, George Mason, Sam Adams, Paul Revere, etc. Not one.

 

Sorry, but I believe that you're engaging in the same sort of hero worship that Jrzy is practicing.

They were men. Just like the men that live now.

Then that's a brier patch that I will be happily thrown into.





 

Today's politicians aren't facing capital punishment by an overseas tyrant for treason, sedition, and revolution.  The Founding Fathers put their lives on the line, and it wasn't over with the Revolution-the British still came back for more when we told them to pound sand about instituting a shell company bank to pilfer our wealth back to Europe, so we had the War of 1812.

Our current political class supports the continued pilfering of our wealth via a European shell company bank, and does their damnedest to keep that from us.  

I'm calling night and day on this one.

The political and national landscape is vastly different now.

Going from 13 colonies with two million people to 50 states with over 300 million will do that.  

And the rest of the world has changed as well.

I don't, though opinions may vary.

 

As I have stated many times, you twist what someone says to make your point.

I never said I worship the FF's

I said they are far and above more ethical in motive and deed than most if not all our current politicians.

You on the other hand feel they were just a bunch of guys that were serving all their own interests.

They risked their very lives to promote freedom for all then and for the future of this nation.

That demands a whole lot more respect than you give them.



Gods no?

Great men who formed the base from which we still live free,Yes

You should just say thank you and to the FF's and be on your fucking way.



   



 

Thats funny, coming from you.
You clearly tried to attribute statements  and sentiments to me in the other thread that I did not say .

Your attitude clearly shows a form of worship, when you say that you believe that the Founders, who were mere men, were somehow superior to any politicians today

They did risk their lives, I am not downplaying that at all. Is that the sole reason you give them more credit than modern politicians? They also what they did out of self-interest, not simply for some selfless reasons as you seem to want to believe.Yes, in some cases they indeed did act out of self-interest.

I am not ungrateful for their sacrifices, but I don't understand the people such as yourself who seem to want to worship them for being more than what they were.

You really should move to a socialist country, you'd fit right in


And who the hell appointed you judge of what others believe?





You sure you live here in the USA?
I felt a little bad when I read you got a 30 rip for the shit you post on the net, not so much now, I can see where someone got so pissed they felt the need to strike out.


It was still an asshole thing to do but I can see why they might have wanted to do that.


 





 

i'm still curious to hear what modern politicians you hold as equals to the FF...



 

The founders knew that politicians were crooks, and that power corrupts.  That's why they (tried at least) to design a system that compensates for that with limited government and checks/balances.

If you're willing to crack a book or three, you'll find that they were not above the same kind of petty bickering you see today.  They drank, they fought, they whored, etc. just like men today.

Paul Revere abandoned his post, got drunk, and was captured by the British because he was so drunk he fell off his horse.

That is still a bald faced lie.



As far as research?

I already told you sherlock, i was a history major, I have done my homework, why do you think I am so impressed with what they have done?



I bet you would love to get rid of a few of those pesky Amendments that interfere with your job, like the 4th & 5th Amendments huh?

 





 

You're free to post your opinions. I am free to post my response to those opinions. That doesn't me a "judge" of your opinions, otheer than I am going to give you my take on your beliefs.

You seem to want to never hear a reponse that runs contrary to what you believe.

What exactly was there in my posts that suggested that I belong in a socialist nation? Because I don't believe in worshipping the Founders as super-humans who acted completely selflessly? It's simple historical fact. They were men, often motivated by their own interests. Not super-human, not all-knowing. Not always acting selflessly, and especially in the beginning of the conflict they'd have been perfectly happy remaining as Englishmen if only George hadn't been so stubborn in how he treated the colonies.

Someone got pissed because they apparently thought that opinions contrary to their own shouldn't be heard.

That was an unpaid 30 day rip?
 

Yup. That was pretty much the standard suspension period under that admin. He thought that such a long period of time w/out pay gave him  economic power over his people because they would toe the line in order to keep paying the bills. I simply ramped up my hours at my other jobs and went on vacation for one of the weeks. Then he decided that guys having secondary jobs gave them too  much economic freedom, so he declared the power to approve or disapprove secondary employment.

Look, I am NOT trying to have an argument with you here. I am having a  discussion, as I do with most others here. I am expressing MY opinions, you are free to express YOURS.

I do not appreciate the hostility of yoru posts, and quite frankly that and your propensity for making stuff up is why I decided to put you on ignore. I am willing to move on if we can have a civilized discussion and drop all of the accusatory and hostile language you like to use.

The choice is yours.

which men? i'm dying to know which modern man in the political arena or otherwise you would put on the same level or standards with the founding fathers.

last time i checked no one's personal book collection today was not going to become the library of congress

Some info on the founding fathers:

Political experience

The framers of the Constitution had extensive political experience. By 1787, four-fifths (41 individuals), were or had been members of the Continental Congress. Nearly all of the 55 delegates had experience in colonial and state government, and the majority had held county and local offices.

Occupations and finances

The 1787 delegates practiced a wide range of high and middle-status occupations, and many pursued more than one career simultaneously. They did not differ dramatically from the Loyalists, except they were generally younger and less senior in their professions.  Thirty-five had legal training, though not all of them practiced law. Some had also been local judges.

- At the time of the convention, 13 men were merchants: Blount, Broom, Clymer, Dayton, Fitzsimons, Shields, Gilman, Gorham, Langdon, Robert Morris, Pierce, Sherman, and Wilson.

- Seven were major land speculators: Blount, Dayton, Fitzsimons, Gorham, Robert Morris, Washington and Wilson.

- Eleven speculated in securities on a large scale: Bedford, Blair, Clymer, Dayton, Fitzsimons, Franklin, King, Langdon, Robert Morris, Charles Cotesworth Pinckney, and Sherman.

- Twelve owned or managed slave-operated plantations or large farms: Bassett, Blair, Blount, Butler, Carroll, Jenifer, Jefferson, Mason, Charles Pinckney, Charles Cotesworth Pinckney, Rutledge, Spaight, and Washington. Madison also owned slaves, as did Franklin, who later freed his slaves and was a key founder of the Pennsylvania Anti-Slavery Society. Alexander Hamilton was opposed to slavery and, with John Jay and other anti-slavery advocates, helped to found the first African free school in New York City. Jay helped to found the New York Manumission Society, Hamilton was an officer, and when Jay was governor of New York in 1798 he signed into law the state statute ending slavery as of 1821.
   
- Broom and Few were small farmers.
   
- Eight of the men received a substantial part of their income from public office: Baldwin, Blair, Brearly, Gilman, Livingston, Madison, and Rutledge.

- Three had retired from active economic endeavors: Franklin, McHenry, and Mifflin.
   
- Franklin and Williamson were scientists, in addition to their other activities.
   
- McClurg, McHenry, and Williamson were physicians, and Johnson was a college president.


Source:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Founding_Fathers_of_the_United_States

So the measure of a great man is their personal library? Obviously its a sign of Jeffersons breadth of study over the course of his lifetime, but do we know if modern politicans do or do not have extensive personal libraries?

Is that really an accurate measuring device?

I would say there IS no difference between the politicians of old and what we have now, except that the passge of time has worn away the political animosities and replaced them with a patina of veneration that some take to greater lengths than others.

put someone up as an example, i bet even the best politician of today will not compare well

and no personal library was just the first thing coming to mind when i was typing

although if you have an extensive one it's usually a decent sign of some intelligence

Fine with me
 

Many if not most politicians today seem to see public office as a career choice rather than an opportunity to serve the people. They try to exert their agendas on the populace and limit freedoms at every turn.