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6/21/2017 8:25:40 PM
Posted: 4/2/2001 11:24:55 AM EDT
"They who give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin England is already a police state and this will just put another nail in the coffin of freedom in that country. Big brother's tv cameras watching your every move, judges being able to arbritrarily put you in jail because you *might* break the law, and now military as law enforcement. Is this what the gun-control weenies ultimately want? ---- Bill could turn MoD police into a paramilitary force, Tories warn Special report: Tories in opposition Special report: human rights in the UK Richard Norton-Taylor Monday April 2, 2001 The Guardian A bill expected to be passed by the Commons today will give the Ministry of Defence police extensive powers allowing officers to arrest civilians anywhere in the country - akin, opponents say, to a national paramilitary force. The move, prompted in part by the force's inability under existing law to intervene in last year's fuel protests, is also opposed by MPs because the force is significantly less accountable than local police forces. "There may be a role for an armed gendarmerie but this is not what the government is saying," said Robert Key MP, a Conservative defence spokesman. The government simply describes the armed forces bill, which contains provisions giving the MoD police more power, as a "tidying up process", he said. The MoD argues that the bill is merely designed to allow its police to act in public order situations, or when a serious crime is being committed, without first having to get the permission of the local police. However, opponents believe the government wants to use the 3,700 officers in the MoD police to help make up the shortfall in local police forces and deploy them, in particular, during demonstrations. Up to now, the authority of the MoD police is restricted to MoD property and bases and military or civilian personnel living or working there. All MoD police can carry firearms. Despite assurances given to MPs by Geoff Honn, the defence secretary, during the committee stage of the bill, the MoD police are not formally subject to police complaints authority investigations, to the inspectorate of constabulary, or to the same disciplinary procedures as civilian police. Nor is the force accountable to an elected police authority. It is an MoD agency controlled by a senior civil servant and the defence secretary without outside scrutiny. The MoD recently agreed to appoint three civilians to its police board but its police officers will still not be democratically accountable, Mr Key said.
Link Posted: 4/2/2001 11:46:33 AM EDT
You would think that the British, of all people, on earth would remember the German ways of WW2 and try not to repeat them.
Link Posted: 4/2/2001 11:55:32 AM EDT
Link Posted: 4/2/2001 12:05:07 PM EDT
Stupid indeed...
Link Posted: 4/2/2001 12:20:55 PM EDT
The Brits are serving as a great example of what NOT to do for we Americans. Maybe this move will blow up on them just like the gun bans are doing, and be useful propoganda for our side to use in the fight to keep our rights.
Link Posted: 4/2/2001 12:25:48 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/2/2001 12:26:09 PM EDT by warlord]
There is a reason that the military and the police are kept seperate here in the U.S. In most of the countries around the world, the police/military are one of the same, and are generally oppressors of the people.
Link Posted: 4/2/2001 12:26:50 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/2/2001 12:31:16 PM EDT by raven]
Hmmm. Yet they still find a way to beat each other up at soccer matches without getting nicked (thrown in jail). What's also interesting is what prompted this move: the protests over gas taxes. Can't have people disobeying the all-knowing and benevolent government now, can we?
Link Posted: 4/2/2001 12:33:54 PM EDT
Those British keep getting themselves into trouble.
Link Posted: 4/2/2001 12:56:58 PM EDT
Originally Posted By warlord: There is a reason that the military and the police are kept seperate here in the U.S. In most of the countries around the world, the police/military are one of the same, and are generally oppressors of the people.
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Who says that they are truly separate? And when have the polce not been oppresive since about the 1950's? It's supposed to be that way, but are our police forces truly given less power than our military, considering what they can do, and still get away with. "Uhh, no sir, that wasn't our tank at the Dividian's Compound, we donno where it come from. It just banged inta the wall, and I'll be durned if the place didn't go up in flames!" "Damn! Shot the wrong person, that kid she was holding looked dangerous. Lessee, she's got a gun on her hip, inexcusable considering that her house is only under light seige here, that's my excuse. Either that, or I just missed." I just love how different we are from England, the police are really less powerful than the military, right? "Ok, we got a warrant, but we're not gonna tell him. We just break down the door, and come flying in, and if he gets scared and tries to shoot back, we kill 'em, after all, we're the ATF, and we got a warrant. If the blackpowder pitol he's got ain't illegal, we say he was gonna set off a fake grenade." Sarcasm off, nomex on. Where's the diff, except that they want to do this stuff under government sanction in England, and over here they do it through a patchwork of Supreme Court decisions, and power being granted to constitutionally illigitimate institutions?
Link Posted: 4/2/2001 1:18:44 PM EDT
You make some good points Jugg. What differentiates police from millitary is not their name, but their arms and tactics, no? If this weren't the case, then we could rename the army something like National Police Force, and then use them on civilians with impunity. But trying to get average sheople to understand this concept is difficult at best, impossible at worst. But, I still keep trying. Maybe someday when it's themselves or their neighbor that gets bullied by the JBTs, they might get a spark of rememberence of what I have been saying.
Link Posted: 4/2/2001 2:11:35 PM EDT
When TSHTF it will be in England, apparently. Maybe its time for us to move!
Link Posted: 4/2/2001 2:52:43 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/2/2001 2:54:30 PM EDT by Juggernaut]
Originally Posted By critter_FR: You make some good points Jugg. What differentiates police from millitary is not their name, but their arms and tactics, no? If this weren't the case, then we could rename the army something like National Police Force, and then use them on civilians with impunity. But trying to get average sheople to understand this concept is difficult at best, impossible at worst. But, I still keep trying. Maybe someday when it's themselves or their neighbor that gets bullied by the JBTs, they might get a spark of rememberence of what I have been saying.
View Quote
You're absolutely right, the police and the military should be distinctly separate, both in response, equipment, orders and actual usage but nowadays the line is blurry at best, and invisible at worst. To most people, the fact that the police is a paramilitary organization in everyplace large enough for them to be one(and some places where they can't afford it, but do it anyhow) is nothing alarming, they're not going to take care of their own safety, so why not some JBT's? They don't realize that the police often work outside of the constitutional limits, and when you do tell them, they don't care-till it happens to them. BTW, officers who have not overstepped their Constitutional bounds by have no anger from me. The police are an integral part of society, and they serve a legitimate purpose, but they are being used wrongly, in a military capacity, to fullfil the role of personal guardians for the populace. We all know that it can't work, because there's not a police officer in ever home. Also, the no knock armed invader raids, and "legal" search and seizure, that although approved by recent law, is still a violation of citizen's Constitutional rights, and I feel no pity or agreement for those who whine that they gotta do these things for the public good. I say, "They who give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin, and my liberty comes first. Juggernaut.
Link Posted: 4/2/2001 2:58:29 PM EDT
What,by jove, are they "tidying up"?....sounds like they`re making a BIGGER mess!.....[grenade]
Link Posted: 4/2/2001 8:03:34 PM EDT
I lived in england for a few years and believe me when I say they are the most CLUELESS people on the planet. They honestly believe what they have is the best in the world and would not have it any other way. Their government SCREWS them in EVERY way. I could go on and on and on telling a brit how bad it is and they refuse to hear it. Its for the good of the people.
Link Posted: 4/2/2001 8:08:47 PM EDT
Those Brits are worse sheeple than us Californians. Watch those police shows once in a while. To think they once rules most of the world. Isn't this new deal akin to our National Guard? To me they sound similar. Feel free to enlighten me.
Link Posted: 4/2/2001 8:08:59 PM EDT
Are ther any Brit's out there? I see posts from Europe & Canada, but not the UK. I wonder if this website is jammed(?), or technically could this reach the Chi-Com and Cuba?
Link Posted: 4/2/2001 8:21:50 PM EDT
I really hate the current British government. I'll be damned if I would ever submit to such tyrany. This kind of crap in England + the confiscations in Australia + the European army being built = TROUBLE!!! I feel a little better knowing that Republicans are in power, tough - a strong military, an armed nation, and the attitude of America for Americans just might get us through. The hell with socialist Europe!
Link Posted: 4/2/2001 8:26:02 PM EDT
Originally Posted By mattja: Those Brits are worse sheeple than us Californians. Watch those police shows once in a while. To think they once rules most of the world. Isn't this new deal akin to our National Guard? To me they sound similar. Feel free to enlighten me.
View Quote
Not quite. these people would be like the NG, but they would have the power to go anywhere, and do anything. Legally. Scary.
Link Posted: 4/2/2001 8:50:37 PM EDT
is there a url for this news story? I'd like to send it to some people, but don't want to send them to such an "evil paramilitary" site such as this. :)
Link Posted: 4/3/2001 9:07:41 AM EDT
Let me start off by saying my wife is Scottish. Let me finish by saying her father(in Prestwick) has a message for all of us at AR15.com..."Don't let this happen to you!" By the way she's a pretty good shot.
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