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Posted: 1/11/2012 2:30:59 PM EDT
Anyone catch the show about snipers on the boob tube yesterday. They were interviewing a sniper who made the statement that 7.62x51 at 1000yds has the same impact as being shot point blank with a 357 magnum . Is there a more versital round currently used by the military?
Link Posted: 1/11/2012 2:31:54 PM EDT
5.56*45
Link Posted: 1/11/2012 2:36:17 PM EDT
Originally Posted By DriftPunch:
5.56*45


Sniper was dropping the bad guys at 850yds. do you think 5.56 would have been more effective?
Link Posted: 1/11/2012 2:36:52 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/11/2012 2:37:13 PM EDT by sporter]
7.62 NATO is no joke.
Link Posted: 1/11/2012 2:38:33 PM EDT

Originally Posted By hotbiggun42:
Originally Posted By DriftPunch:
5.56*45


Sniper was dropping the bad guys at 850yds. do you think 5.56 would have been more effective?

No, but you said you wanted versatility. Try a shoulder fired rifle or carbine in full auto in 7.62*51. Try to carry as many rounds of 7.62*51 as you can with 5.56*45.

The reduced range is gladly sacrificed.


Link Posted: 1/11/2012 2:39:47 PM EDT
Originally Posted By hotbiggun42:
Anyone catch the show about snipers on the boob tube yesterday. They were interviewing a sniper who made the statement that 7.62x51 at 1000yds has the same impact as being shot point blank with a 357 magnum . Is there a more versital round currently used by the military?


Rifles are in a different playing field than handguns in regards to terminal ballistics.

I carry a handgun because a carbine/rifle would be to obtrusive.
Link Posted: 1/11/2012 2:41:24 PM EDT
Originally Posted By DriftPunch:

Originally Posted By hotbiggun42:
Originally Posted By DriftPunch:
5.56*45


Sniper was dropping the bad guys at 850yds. do you think 5.56 would have been more effective?

No, but you said you wanted versatility. Try a shoulder fired rifle or carbine in full auto in 7.62*51. Try to carry as many rounds of 7.62*51 as you can with 5.56*45.

The reduced range is gladly sacrificed.




While i disagree with your above evaluation the sniper man did say that 7.62x51 was most effective past 200yds. It was really a good show.
Link Posted: 1/11/2012 2:42:14 PM EDT

Ex Navy guy from work says 7.62x51 is way better than any .308

Link Posted: 1/11/2012 2:42:22 PM EDT
An M24 can not be compared to a M16/AR pattern rifle, completely different roles. That being said there are documented kills with SPRs and DMR type rifles at 800m and greater.
Link Posted: 1/11/2012 2:42:38 PM EDT
That sounds about right.
Link Posted: 1/11/2012 2:43:38 PM EDT
Originally Posted By LuvBUSHmaster:
Originally Posted By hotbiggun42:
Anyone catch the show about snipers on the boob tube yesterday. They were interviewing a sniper who made the statement that 7.62x51 at 1000yds has the same impact as being shot point blank with a 357 magnum . Is there a more versital round currently used by the military?


Rifles are in a different playing field than handguns in regards to terminal ballistics.

I carry a handgun because a carbine/rifle would be to obtrusive.


I wasnt trying to compare a rifle to a handgun. I was just surprised at how effective 7.62 was out to 1000yds
Link Posted: 1/11/2012 2:44:41 PM EDT
Originally Posted By hotbiggun42:
Originally Posted By LuvBUSHmaster:
Originally Posted By hotbiggun42:
Anyone catch the show about snipers on the boob tube yesterday. They were interviewing a sniper who made the statement that 7.62x51 at 1000yds has the same impact as being shot point blank with a 357 magnum . Is there a more versital round currently used by the military?


Rifles are in a different playing field than handguns in regards to terminal ballistics.

I carry a handgun because a carbine/rifle would be to obtrusive.


I wasnt trying to compare a rifle to a handgun. I was just surprised at how effective 7.62 was out to 1000yds


Understood and yep.

Link Posted: 1/11/2012 2:44:41 PM EDT
7.62 x 51 will wreck your day.

DP
Link Posted: 1/11/2012 2:46:17 PM EDT
Originally Posted By DetroitPatriot:
7.62 x 51 will wreck your day.

DP


Most rounds would wreck somebody's day, some are more then others.
Link Posted: 1/11/2012 2:47:27 PM EDT

Originally Posted By hotbiggun42:
Originally Posted By LuvBUSHmaster:
Originally Posted By hotbiggun42:
Anyone catch the show about snipers on the boob tube yesterday. They were interviewing a sniper who made the statement that 7.62x51 at 1000yds has the same impact as being shot point blank with a 357 magnum . Is there a more versital round currently used by the military?


Rifles are in a different playing field than handguns in regards to terminal ballistics.

I carry a handgun because a carbine/rifle would be to obtrusive.


I wasnt trying to compare a rifle to a handgun. I was just surprised at how effective 7.62 was out to 1000yds


It's impacting at somewhere between 500 to 600 ft pounds of energy
Link Posted: 1/11/2012 2:47:35 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/11/2012 2:50:56 PM EDT by ArmyInfantryVet]
My favorite quote about 7.62 NATO

"When you're walking through the swamps of Vietnam, up to your chin in warm mud. You can take tremendous comfort in that fact that the M14 puts down range 7.62 millimeter NATO round that is capable of punching through the jungle, of punching through vegetation and still killing the Vietcong or the NVA guy and....... killing the guy behind him."

Link Posted: 1/11/2012 2:49:35 PM EDT
Originally Posted By zimpete:

Ex Navy guy from work says 7.62x51 is way better than any .308



What is with these navy guys. The one I know tells me bat shit insane storys.
Link Posted: 1/11/2012 2:51:05 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Sslous:
Originally Posted By zimpete:

Ex Navy guy from work says 7.62x51 is way better than any .308



What is with these navy guys. The one I know tells me bat shit insane storys.


My Brother is retired Navy I will have to ask him about this
Link Posted: 1/11/2012 2:52:16 PM EDT
I have a Sgt Maj. friend of mine that was back here a couple of weeks ago from II MEF. We were talking about the M14 and the 7.62mm NATO cartridge. He used to be on the USMC rifle team, and is a distinguished marksman. He was telling me how the 5.56mm match-grade rifles they were using at 1000 meters (with 77 gr projectile) would barely "plop" through the target cheese cloth and paper, and wouldn't have any energy left after impact. They tried using them for a period of time and went back to the M14 NM rifles they'd been using prior.

I don't know how long ago that was as I didn't ask, but I thought it was pretty interesting stuff. He said the 77 gr rounds had to be loaded singly, as they were too long to fit in the magazine.
Link Posted: 1/11/2012 2:53:15 PM EDT
M-118 LR is some great stuff. I reload clone M-118's with the only difference being I use Varget.

Out to 1000 yds. If I can see ya....I can hit ya. Stand off distance rocks!!
Link Posted: 1/11/2012 2:53:26 PM EDT
FMJ 7.62 really isn't a great choice for any application.
Link Posted: 1/11/2012 2:55:22 PM EDT
Originally Posted By pcsutton:
M-118 LR is some great stuff. I reload clone M-118's with the only difference being I use Varget.

Out to 1000 yds. If I can see ya....I can hit ya. Stand off distance rocks!!


I have 1k rounds of M118LR I just dont get a chance to shoot it often
Link Posted: 1/11/2012 2:56:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/11/2012 2:57:36 PM EDT by ArmyInfantryVet]

Originally Posted By pcsutton:
M-118 LR is some great stuff. I reload clone M-118's with the only difference being I use Varget.

Out to 1000 yds. If I can see ya....I can hit ya. Stand off distance rocks!!

I'd imagine that M118LR could compete with .30-06 of old. Pretty neat.

But then again, with new projectiles and propellants; modern .30-06 can rival magnum cartridges.
Link Posted: 1/11/2012 2:56:39 PM EDT
Originally Posted By sporter:
7.62 NATO is no joke.


do tell
Link Posted: 1/11/2012 2:56:44 PM EDT
Originally Posted By danno-in-michigan:
FMJ 7.62 really isn't a great choice for any application.


I don't know if you are joking or not but I have read that here before. I don't understand it but everyone has opinions.
Link Posted: 1/11/2012 2:59:02 PM EDT
From a range management perspective, M118LR has a longer SDZ from the firing points than standard 7.62mm ball. I remember range L5 used to be rated for M118LR, and required more prep by the RSO / OIC due to the increased range.
Link Posted: 1/11/2012 3:01:12 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ArmyInfantryVet:

Originally Posted By pcsutton:
M-118 LR is some great stuff. I reload clone M-118's with the only difference being I use Varget.

Out to 1000 yds. If I can see ya....I can hit ya. Stand off distance rocks!!

I'd imagine that M118LR could compete with .30-06 of old. Pretty neat.

But then again, with new projectiles and propellants; modern .30-06 can rival magnum cartridges.


Standard 7.62mm NATO rd with 147 gr bullet and ball propellants has the same ballistics as cal. .30 M2 ball with 150 gr bullet and IMR 4895 extruded propellants, IIRC.
Link Posted: 1/11/2012 3:05:12 PM EDT
Holy @#$%!!! I've never seen a thread like this. Evar.
Link Posted: 1/11/2012 3:08:58 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/11/2012 3:10:55 PM EDT
One of the many cool things about the 7.62 NATO cartridge is.....
The AR10 rifle.
Link Posted: 1/11/2012 3:11:20 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/11/2012 3:12:03 PM EDT by ReallyLongAction]
Originally Posted By USMCTanker:
Originally Posted By ArmyInfantryVet:

Originally Posted By pcsutton:
M-118 LR is some great stuff. I reload clone M-118's with the only difference being I use Varget.

Out to 1000 yds. If I can see ya....I can hit ya. Stand off distance rocks!!

I'd imagine that M118LR could compete with .30-06 of old. Pretty neat.

But then again, with new projectiles and propellants; modern .30-06 can rival magnum cartridges.


Standard 7.62mm NATO rd with 147 gr bullet and ball propellants has the same ballistics as cal. .30 M2 ball with 150 gr bullet and IMR 4895 extruded propellants, IIRC.



Every source I have read lists 150gr. 7.62 Nato at 2800 fps, and 150gr. M2 ball at 2910. I'm just going from what I've read. Even still, they're no doubt close.
This is at the muzzle.


Handloading for the .30-06 with that big 'ol case is a whole 'nother story.........
Link Posted: 1/11/2012 3:20:25 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/11/2012 3:21:41 PM EDT by Windustsearch]
Originally Posted By Bradders:
At 1000yds with a 175 SMK and mv of 2650 fps, .762 will have 585 ft/lbs energy
At point blank, .357 mag with a 158 will have 774 ft/lbs


That would be a heck of a hot .357 mag load. I think most 158 gr loads are more like 580, unless you are talking out of a rifle.

Link Posted: 1/11/2012 3:28:57 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Windustsearch:
Originally Posted By Bradders:
At 1000yds with a 175 SMK and mv of 2650 fps, .762 will have 585 ft/lbs energy
At point blank, .357 mag with a 158 will have 774 ft/lbs


That would be a heck of a hot .357 mag load. I think most 158 gr loads are more like 580, unless you are talking out of a rifle.



FMJ 30 cal vs .357 expanding bullet, which do you think will cause more damage?
Link Posted: 1/11/2012 3:32:07 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/11/2012 3:35:05 PM EDT by Shawnmt6601]
Originally Posted By hotbiggun42:
Originally Posted By DriftPunch:

Originally Posted By hotbiggun42:
Originally Posted By DriftPunch:
5.56*45


Sniper was dropping the bad guys at 850yds. do you think 5.56 would have been more effective?

No, but you said you wanted versatility. Try a shoulder fired rifle or carbine in full auto in 7.62*51. Try to carry as many rounds of 7.62*51 as you can with 5.56*45.

The reduced range is gladly sacrificed.




While i disagree with your above evaluation the sniper man did say that 7.62x51 was most effective past 200yds. It was really a good show.





the sniper that made the longest kill in Iraq with a 7.62 also preferred the 556 in using the MK 262 and made most of his kills wit that combo, also said it seemed to do more damage. you can see you tube interviews of him saying it and it is in a issue of SOF from about 2 months ago and the Book Trigger Men


ETA 77 grain ammo is not too long to fit in a mag most high power shooters use it all the time and the MK 262 is 77 and does not need to be singly loaded, 80s do, not 77s, that is bullshit and the NM M16 has out shot the NM M14 at Perry all the time
Link Posted: 1/11/2012 3:32:42 PM EDT
7.62x52.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
Link Posted: 1/11/2012 3:34:01 PM EDT
Originally Posted By danno-in-michigan:
FMJ 7.62 really isn't a great choice for any application.


Someone correct me if I'm wrong but don't the Geneva Convention says we must use a non-expanding round.

7.62 > 5.56



Link Posted: 1/11/2012 3:37:28 PM EDT
Originally Posted By hotbiggun42:
Originally Posted By pcsutton:
M-118 LR is some great stuff. I reload clone M-118's with the only difference being I use Varget.

Out to 1000 yds. If I can see ya....I can hit ya. Stand off distance rocks!!


I have 1k rounds of M118LR I just dont get a chance to shoot it often


Start reloading and you'll have more than 1K of it....

Lake city cases, approx 43 grains of cannister grade RL15, and a 175 SMK loaded to 2.81 COAL is pretty much a dupe my friend. For added target destruction, use the 178 AMAX in place of the 175 SMK.
Link Posted: 1/11/2012 3:40:55 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ReallyLongAction:
Originally Posted By USMCTanker:
Originally Posted By ArmyInfantryVet:

Originally Posted By pcsutton:
M-118 LR is some great stuff. I reload clone M-118's with the only difference being I use Varget.

Out to 1000 yds. If I can see ya....I can hit ya. Stand off distance rocks!!

I'd imagine that M118LR could compete with .30-06 of old. Pretty neat.

But then again, with new projectiles and propellants; modern .30-06 can rival magnum cartridges.


Standard 7.62mm NATO rd with 147 gr bullet and ball propellants has the same ballistics as cal. .30 M2 ball with 150 gr bullet and IMR 4895 extruded propellants, IIRC.



Every source I have read lists 150gr. 7.62 Nato at 2800 fps, and 150gr. M2 ball at 2910. I'm just going from what I've read. Even still, they're no doubt close.
This is at the muzzle.


Handloading for the .30-06 with that big 'ol case is a whole 'nother story.........


Lake city measures MV at I think 68 feet from the muzzle.... And handloading -06 gives the shooter a whole new world. It really is a fantastic round. Also, 2910 sounds too hot and too fast for M2 ball. M2 is M1 ammo, I though m1 ammo was close to 2750 fps but I may be mistaken.
Link Posted: 1/11/2012 4:12:56 PM EDT
Versatiity is the key word. Some units prefer .300 Win Mag or .338 Lapua for reaching out and touching people. That said, there aren't any battle rifles in those calibers.

My answer would by 7.62x51
Link Posted: 1/11/2012 4:14:36 PM EDT
Originally Posted By bafordman:
Originally Posted By danno-in-michigan:
FMJ 7.62 really isn't a great choice for any application.


Someone correct me if I'm wrong but don't the Geneva Convention says we must use a non-expanding round.

7.62 > 5.56





It's the Hague Convention which the US signed but never ratified. The US still abides by it though for political reasons.
Link Posted: 1/11/2012 4:37:26 PM EDT
Originally Posted By stevelish:
Holy @#$%!!! I've never seen a thread like this. Evar.


needs more Ron Paul huh.
Link Posted: 1/11/2012 4:40:18 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Sslous:
Originally Posted By zimpete:

Ex Navy guy from work says 7.62x51 is way better than any .308



What is with these navy guys. The one I know tells me bat shit insane storys.


Whadda ya expect? The poor guy was in the Canadian Navy. How would you like to do a 3 year sea-duty tour on a rowboat
Link Posted: 1/11/2012 4:57:07 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Bradders:
At 1000yds with a 175 SMK and mv of 2650 fps, .762 will have 585 ft/lbs energy
At point blank, .357 mag with a 158 will have 774 ft/lbs


Yeah, but we aren't talking about .762.

Link Posted: 1/11/2012 5:05:04 PM EDT
Originally Posted By USMCTanker:
I have a Sgt Maj. friend of mine that was back here a couple of weeks ago from II MEF. We were talking about the M14 and the 7.62mm NATO cartridge. He used to be on the USMC rifle team, and is a distinguished marksman. He was telling me how the 5.56mm match-grade rifles they were using at 1000 meters (with 77 gr projectile) would barely "plop" through the target cheese cloth and paper, and wouldn't have any energy left after impact. They tried using them for a period of time and went back to the M14 NM rifles they'd been using prior.

I don't know how long ago that was as I didn't ask, but I thought it was pretty interesting stuff. He said the 77 gr rounds had to be loaded singly, as they were too long to fit in the magazine.


What about this one?

In one of the best kept secrets of National Match history, the Army Marksmanship Unit has been shooting AMU-built National Match grade AR-10's for the past two years. Their work has culminated with the acceptance of the AR-10NM for use "across the board" in NRA Service Rifle competition.

Link Posted: 1/11/2012 5:15:04 PM EDT
Originally Posted By pcsutton:
M-118 LR is some great stuff. I reload clone M-118's with the only difference being I use Varget.

Out to 1000 yds. If I can see ya....I can hit ya. Stand off distance rocks!!


I'll second this sentiment. Properly loaded 175 BTHP match ammo will stay supersonic to just past 1K in the 7.62x51. Good medicine.
Link Posted: 1/11/2012 6:55:45 PM EDT

Originally Posted By bafordman:
Originally Posted By danno-in-michigan:
FMJ 7.62 really isn't a great choice for any application.


Someone correct me if I'm wrong but don't the Geneva Convention says we must use a non-expanding round.

7.62 > 5.56




You are wrong. The Hague convention requires FMJ, but it doesn't mention unstable bullets or bullets that fracture easily. These things were not understood or really even seen at the time it was written, and it was never updated.
Link Posted: 1/11/2012 6:58:52 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Rincon_11:
7.62x52.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile


Trim your cases, asshole.
Link Posted: 1/11/2012 7:00:07 PM EDT
Originally Posted By DriftPunch:

Originally Posted By bafordman:
Originally Posted By danno-in-michigan:
FMJ 7.62 really isn't a great choice for any application.


Someone correct me if I'm wrong but don't the Geneva Convention says we must use a non-expanding round.

7.62 > 5.56




You are wrong. The Hague convention requires FMJ, but it doesn't mention unstable bullets or bullets that fracture easily. These things were not understood or really even seen at the time it was written, and it was never updated.


1. If our enemy doesn't follow the Geneva Convention then we shouldn't either when fighting that enemy.

2. .308 is the best round ever....well aside from the .338 but who wants to pay for that?
Link Posted: 1/11/2012 7:04:40 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Zenvo:
Originally Posted By DriftPunch:

Originally Posted By bafordman:
Originally Posted By danno-in-michigan:
FMJ 7.62 really isn't a great choice for any application.


Someone correct me if I'm wrong but don't the Geneva Convention says we must use a non-expanding round.

7.62 > 5.56




You are wrong. The Hague convention requires FMJ, but it doesn't mention unstable bullets or bullets that fracture easily. These things were not understood or really even seen at the time it was written, and it was never updated.


1. If our enemy doesn't follow the Geneva Convention then we shouldn't either when fighting that enemy.

2. .308 is the best round ever....well aside from the .338 but who wants to pay for that?


It's the Hague Convention that forbids expanding bullets, not the Geneva Convention.
Link Posted: 1/11/2012 7:13:34 PM EDT
Originally Posted By SecurityForcesmember:
Originally Posted By hotbiggun42:
Originally Posted By pcsutton:
M-118 LR is some great stuff. I reload clone M-118's with the only difference being I use Varget.

Out to 1000 yds. If I can see ya....I can hit ya. Stand off distance rocks!!


I have 1k rounds of M118LR I just dont get a chance to shoot it often


Start reloading and you'll have more than 1K of it....

Lake city cases, approx 43 grains of cannister grade RL15, and a 175 SMK loaded to 2.81 COAL is pretty much a dupe my friend. For added target destruction, use the 178 AMAX in place of the 175 SMK.


Temp sensitive though. Some guys use Varget because of that.
Link Posted: 1/11/2012 10:59:14 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/11/2012 10:59:42 PM EDT by ArmyInfantryVet]

Originally Posted By LARRYG:
Originally Posted By USMCTanker:
I have a Sgt Maj. friend of mine that was back here a couple of weeks ago from II MEF. We were talking about the M14 and the 7.62mm NATO cartridge. He used to be on the USMC rifle team, and is a distinguished marksman. He was telling me how the 5.56mm match-grade rifles they were using at 1000 meters (with 77 gr projectile) would barely "plop" through the target cheese cloth and paper, and wouldn't have any energy left after impact. They tried using them for a period of time and went back to the M14 NM rifles they'd been using prior.

I don't know how long ago that was as I didn't ask, but I thought it was pretty interesting stuff. He said the 77 gr rounds had to be loaded singly, as they were too long to fit in the magazine.


What about this one?

In one of the best kept secrets of National Match history, the Army Marksmanship Unit has been shooting AMU-built National Match grade AR-10's for the past two years. Their work has culminated with the acceptance of the AR-10NM for use "across the board" in NRA Service Rifle competition.


Only a fool would take a M14 over a AR-10.

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