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Posted: 12/25/2011 8:51:15 AM EST
Okay, I'm disgusted by the NRA but this takes the cake.

It is NOT illegal for a PAC to disclose their endorsements. This is a total scam. Please spread the word and warn people about this dishonest fund raising effort by NAGR. I blanked out their contact info and the recipients name. Below is the email as sent out:

Dear Xxxxxx,

I’m in a bind.

It’s illegal for me to tell you which candidates the National Association for Gun Rights PAC supports. The Internal Revenue Service (IRS) and the Federal Election Commission (FEC) expressly forbid me from telling you which candidates are so solid on gun rights that I want you to help us help them.

It sounds crazy, I know.

But the anti-gun Obamacrats who run the federal government don’t want gun owners and activists like you and me to be organized going into the 2012 election.

That’s why the IRS/FEC will only let me tell “a restricted class” of “legal members” of the National Association for Gun Rights who they should –– and shouldn’t –– support in the election.

The good news is, I’ve found a loophole around their legal gag, and frankly it’s pretty easy.

All you need to do is chip in at least $5 (or more), and take a positive pro-gun action, and you can then be counted as part of our “legal membership.”

So I've set up a page for you to do just that when you click here.



It’s that easy. Once you’re considered what the bureaucrats call a “legal member of the Organization’s restricted class” I can tell you which candidates to support, and which anti-gunners to oppose.

Are you upset with our government’s attempts to take away your rights?

Are you angry at the way politicians are trashing our God-given liberties and the Constitution?

Do you get tired of hearing the election season lies politicians tell about their supposed “support” of your Constitutional right to keep and bear arms?

And it is very important you act today because election season is the best time to hold politicians accountable. Nothing is more important to a politician than getting elected or re-elected.

That’s why the politicians and their bureaucratic allies put up as many road blocks as possible to make it hard for individuals and groups of like-minded gun activists to influence elections.


Due to the onerous, free speech-violating elections laws, the National Association for Gun Rights and our members are severely limited in what we can and can’t do during the election season.

I formed a Political Action Committee (PAC) for the National Association for Gun Rights to do exactly what needs to be done to hold politicians accountable without worrying about getting hauled into an IRS audit or a federal courtroom.

Through the National Association for Gun Rights PAC, we can now expressly advocate for the election –– or defeat –– of politicians across the country.

That’s why I’m asking you to do me a personal favor –– and a favor for the cause we share by taking the simple step of clicking HERE and taking the simple actions.


I know I don’t have to tell you that the coming election is pivotal for our gun rights. The Obama administration is desperate to pay off the anti-gunners, and I need to be able to mobilize as many gun owners as possible in the coming election.

That’s why I started the National Association for Gun Rights PAC in the first place, so gun owners like you and me can have a direct impact on the elections that are so vital to our gun rights.

With the specter of the United Nations’ “Small Arms Treaty” gun ban looming on the horizon, and President Obama’s pledge to pursue gun control “under the radar,” now is NOT the time for gun owners to sit on the sidelines.

I need gun owners and activists just like you to stand shoulder-to-shoulder with me against the anti-gunners in both parties.

To do that, I need to be able to communicate directly with you through our Political Action Committee. I can’t do that unless you’re a “legal member of the Organization's restricted class” of National Association for Gun Rights membership.

The National Association for Gun Rights PAC is already involved in important Federal races, but I simply can’t tell you which ones.

I can’t risk the legal battle that would surely follow.

The good news is, I’ve found an easy loophole that will keep you connected with the National Association for Gun Rights PAC, and keep you on the frontlines of the most important battles in the coming election.

All you need to do is chip in at least $5, right now, so you can be counted as part of our “legal membership.”


It’s that easy. Once you’re considered a “legal member of the Organization’s restricted class” I can tell you which candidates to support, and which anti-gunners to oppose.

It will only take a few moments. I hope I can count on you to become a “legal member of the Organization’s restricted class” so I can speak directly to you about which candidates gun owners should support, and which ones we need to fight.

For Freedom,

signature
Dudley Brown
Executive Director

P.S. The IRS/FEC expressly forbids me to tell you which candidates have my endorsement.

That’s why the IRS/FEC will only let me tell “a restricted class” of “legal members” of the National Association for Gun Rights who they should –– and shouldn’t –– support in the election.

The good news is, I’ve found a loophole around their legal gag, and frankly it’s pretty easy.

All you need to do is chip in at least $5, right now, so you can be counted as part of our “legal membership.”

It’s that easy. Once you’re considered a “legal member of the Organization’s restricted class” I can tell you which candidates to support, and which anti-gunners to oppose.

The National Association for Gun Rights is a nonprofit, nonpartisan, single-purpose citizens' organization dedicated to preserving and protecting the Constitutionally protected right-to-keep-and-bear-arms through an aggressive program designed to mobilize public opposition to anti-gun legislation. The National Association for Gun Rights' mailing address is P.O. XXXX, XXXXXXXXXXXXXX, VA XXXXX. They can be contacted toll-free at X-XXX-XXX-XXXX. Its web address is www.XXXXXXXXXXXXX.XXX/

You can read our privacy policy here.

Not produced or e-mailed at taxpayer expense.
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Posted: 12/25/2011 9:00:57 AM EST
I started receiving emails from NAGR some time back, and it was apparent to me that they weren't being straight. Whoever it is was making every effort to twist anything they could find into "controversy" in order to gin up traffic.

Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if NAGR was run by anti's as a false-flag operation, but it's more likely that it's just what you say it is - a scam being run by someone for a profit.
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Posted: 12/25/2011 9:07:08 AM EST
Bullshit. Otherwise every other PAC out there would be acting illegally. Furhter, any donation over $100 - both incoming and outgoing - needs to be publically disclosed. I smell a serious rat or scam.
Heller II - Challenging DC's bans on semi-automatic rifles, large-capacity ammunition feeding devices, and its onerous and expensive handgun registration process. http://www.HellerFoundation.com/
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Posted: 12/25/2011 9:18:06 AM EST
[Last Edit: 12/25/2011 9:18:46 AM EST by Plumbata]
It's run by two lobbyists out of Colorado. Dudley something or other is the president. The last thing I saw from them was a press release tearing up on Gingrich for being anti-gun.

HB 45 has been dead for at least 4 years. I'd say it's a scam.

I suspect PaulBots.
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Posted: 12/25/2011 9:18:53 AM EST
Is this one of those hunter's rights groups where the heads contribute millions to the democrats and even contribute to Handgun Control Inc.?
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Posted: 12/25/2011 9:56:16 AM EST
Originally Posted By Plumbata:
It's run by two lobbyists out of Colorado. Dudley something or other is the president. The last thing I saw from them was a press release tearing up on Gingrich for being anti-gun.

HB 45 has been dead for at least 4 years. I'd say it's a scam.

I suspect PaulBots.


These kinds of idiots do nothing for our Rights. They are using the situation for their own gain. Spread the word far and wide and make sure that people know what game they are playing. I don't like someone fucking with my 2nd Amendment Rights... I also don't like people trying to scam other people to make money on the issue.
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Posted: 12/25/2011 10:00:02 AM EST
...
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Posted: 12/25/2011 10:05:22 AM EST
"I hate rude behavior in a man. I won't tolerate it." - Capt. W. F. Call, Texas Ranger

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Posted: 12/25/2011 10:12:35 AM EST
Originally Posted By Plumbata:
It's run by two lobbyists out of Colorado. Dudley something or other is the president. The last thing I saw from them was a press release tearing up on Gingrich for being anti-gun.

HB 45 has been dead for at least 4 years. I'd say it's a scam.

I suspect PaulBots.


They've cleaned their website, but it used to be a vehicle to push Ron Paul and bash the NRA,
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Posted: 12/25/2011 10:22:14 AM EST
Originally Posted By Hard_Rock:
Originally Posted By Plumbata:
It's run by two lobbyists out of Colorado. Dudley something or other is the president. The last thing I saw from them was a press release tearing up on Gingrich for being anti-gun.

HB 45 has been dead for at least 4 years. I'd say it's a scam.

I suspect PaulBots.


These kinds of idiots do nothing for our Rights. They are using the situation for their own gain. Spread the word far and wide and make sure that people know what game they are playing. I don't like someone fucking with my 2nd Amendment Rights... I also don't like people trying to scam other people to make money on the issue.


So what organizations that fight for gun rights are okay to join?
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Posted: 12/25/2011 10:54:43 AM EST
Originally Posted By Old_Painless:
Originally Posted By Hard_Rock:
Okay, I'm disgusted by the NRA ........


Why?

The NRA is the voice of American gun owners and is the big player in the halls of Congress.

Support the NRA.

(Life and Benefactor NRA member.)


I'd say support the NRA too.
NRA has been less than stellar in the past (70's-80's) in their support of gunrights in that they were willing to say well it's ok if you outlaw "X" because that isn't a real "sporting" firearm. When they were at their worst there was another gunrights group, who's name I can not recall, which started up. The new group had the "these are our rights and not to be infringed, period, end of story" attitude. The NRA has gotton better since then. I can't recall the name of the other organization but rest assure the Clintons, Gore and Kerry let alone Obama were never endorsed by them. The NRA on the other hand has given positive feedback on liberal politicians just because they were able to straddle the fence effectively.
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Posted: 12/25/2011 11:13:01 AM EST
Originally Posted By KBaker:
I started receiving emails from NAGR some time back, and it was apparent to me that they weren't being straight. Whoever it is was making every effort to twist anything they could find into "controversy" in order to gin up traffic.

Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if NAGR was run by anti's as a false-flag operation, but it's more likely that it's just what you say it is - a scam being run by someone for a profit.


This is my take on it as well. Divert funds away from more effective organizations. I'm not buying it.

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Posted: 12/25/2011 11:18:29 AM EST
Originally Posted By Wespe:
Originally Posted By Hard_Rock:
Originally Posted By Plumbata:
It's run by two lobbyists out of Colorado. Dudley something or other is the president. The last thing I saw from them was a press release tearing up on Gingrich for being anti-gun.

HB 45 has been dead for at least 4 years. I'd say it's a scam.

I suspect PaulBots.


These kinds of idiots do nothing for our Rights. They are using the situation for their own gain. Spread the word far and wide and make sure that people know what game they are playing. I don't like someone fucking with my 2nd Amendment Rights... I also don't like people trying to scam other people to make money on the issue.


So what organizations that fight for gun rights are okay to join?





Send me five bucks, and I'll tell you.





You can't explain the Big-Bang theory to people who think flatulence is caused by evil spirits crawling up their behinds.
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Posted: 12/25/2011 11:23:54 AM EST
"NAGR"? Seriously?


"No, we're fed up with your fucking ugly Kenyan fake fuck self. Barry Soreto Stanley Hussein Obama Ballsack, Kenyan mud-hut non-citizen fuck. A pox on you, your kids, and that hairy long armed fucking wookie orangutan you call a wife." -Easy_E
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Posted: 12/25/2011 11:29:59 AM EST
[Last Edit: 12/25/2011 11:30:18 AM EST by HeavyMetal]
I suppose it is possible to convey more ignorance with less words, but I doubt I will ever see it in my lifetime.--Bohr Adam

If LAV promotes using the slide lock/release to chamber a round after a mag change, then he should be ignored.-MP0117
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Posted: 12/25/2011 11:31:54 AM EST
Originally Posted By Heartbreaker1373:
"NAGR"? Seriously?


http://tvmedia.ign.com/tv/image/article/844/844539/south-park-20080109061909598.jpg


"People who annoy you"
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Posted: 12/25/2011 11:38:47 AM EST
I suppose it is possible to convey more ignorance with less words, but I doubt I will ever see it in my lifetime.--Bohr Adam

If LAV promotes using the slide lock/release to chamber a round after a mag change, then he should be ignored.-MP0117
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Posted: 12/25/2011 11:44:28 AM EST

Originally Posted By Old_Painless:
Originally Posted By Hard_Rock:
Okay, I'm disgusted by the NRA ........


Why?

The NRA is the voice of American gun owners and is the big player in the halls of Congress.

Support the NRA.

(Life and Benefactor NRA member.)

Cuz they send me mailers wanting money and maybe call 1-2x a year OMG BBQ Derp Derp Derp

Originally Posted By broken_reticle:

To me $300 is pretty damn cheap for sodomy insurance.
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Posted: 12/25/2011 11:46:57 AM EST
Originally Posted By Heartbreaker1373:
"NAGR"? Seriously?


http://tvmedia.ign.com/tv/image/article/844/844539/south-park-20080109061909598.jpg


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Posted: 12/25/2011 11:47:35 AM EST
Since the NAGR has no relation to the NRA, why are you disgusted with the NRA?
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Posted: 12/25/2011 12:11:04 PM EST
Originally Posted By Plumbata:
It's run by two lobbyists out of Colorado. Dudley something or other is the president. The last thing I saw from them was a press release tearing up on Gingrich for being anti-gun.

HB 45 has been dead for at least 4 years. I'd say it's a scam.

I suspect PaulBots.




This He also has RMGO http://www.rmgo.org/staff



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Posted: 12/25/2011 1:06:38 PM EST
Dudley Brown is and continues to be one of the good guys when it comes to gun rights. Period. Whiled I am a member of the NRA, they are not the end all be of gun rights organizations, Hate to say it folks but sometimes the NRA tends to take more credit than they deserve and, in my opinion, don't necessarily have our best interest in mind. Politics. Don't get me wrong, they have done a lot of good and continue to do so but...

YMMV
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Posted: 12/25/2011 1:21:10 PM EST
Originally Posted By KBaker:
I started receiving emails from NAGR some time back, and it was apparent to me that they weren't being straight. Whoever it is was making every effort to twist anything they could find into "controversy" in order to gin up traffic.

Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if NAGR was run by anti's as a false-flag operation, but it's more likely that it's just what you say it is - a scam being run by someone for a profit.

The antis would never do such a thing.
Gun database/bound book (free).
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Posted: 12/25/2011 1:29:31 PM EST
Originally Posted By tc2k11:
Originally Posted By KBaker:
I started receiving emails from NAGR some time back, and it was apparent to me that they weren't being straight. Whoever it is was making every effort to twist anything they could find into "controversy" in order to gin up traffic.

Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if NAGR was run by anti's as a false-flag operation, but it's more likely that it's just what you say it is - a scam being run by someone for a profit.

The antis would never do such a thing.




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Posted: 12/25/2011 1:31:43 PM EST
[Last Edit: 12/25/2011 1:32:33 PM EST by tc2k11]
Originally Posted By itstock:
Originally Posted By tc2k11:
Originally Posted By KBaker:
I started receiving emails from NAGR some time back, and it was apparent to me that they weren't being straight. Whoever it is was making every effort to twist anything they could find into "controversy" in order to gin up traffic.

Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if NAGR was run by anti's as a false-flag operation, but it's more likely that it's just what you say it is - a scam being run by someone for a profit.

The antis would never do such a thing.







ETA: Link removed lest some douche in the upcoming election cycle portray that as being serious.
Gun database/bound book (free).
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http://sourceforge.net/projects/gun/

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Posted: 12/25/2011 4:52:33 PM EST
Originally Posted By Wespe:
Originally Posted By Hard_Rock:
Originally Posted By Plumbata:
It's run by two lobbyists out of Colorado. Dudley something or other is the president. The last thing I saw from them was a press release tearing up on Gingrich for being anti-gun.

HB 45 has been dead for at least 4 years. I'd say it's a scam.

I suspect PaulBots.


These kinds of idiots do nothing for our Rights. They are using the situation for their own gain. Spread the word far and wide and make sure that people know what game they are playing. I don't like someone fucking with my 2nd Amendment Rights... I also don't like people trying to scam other people to make money on the issue.


So what organizations that fight for gun rights are okay to join?


I support organizations that have done pro-active work. Heller Foundation, SAF, etc. I don't want nor need the fear mongering and compromising. I fought for our 2nd Amendment Rights for over 20 years and more than on one occasion, the NRA tried to compromise us down on legislation. For instance, the NRA supported the restaurant ban in Virginia and fought VCDL over it for years.
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Posted: 12/27/2011 10:51:34 AM EST
Really?

Scam artist?

Before you go calling people names, you might want to talk with them.

Do what you wish, of course, but –– all humility aside –– I'll put my pro-gun credentials up against anyone in America.

First and foremost, I'm a pretty open book.

(and, incidentally, I'm a HUGE AR-15 nut –– as you might tell by the logos of the organizations I've created)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dudley_Brown

As someone who has been involved as a gun lobbyist for almost 20 years,I've dedicated my entire adult life to fighting for individual gun rights both in myhome state of Colorado (through Rocky Mountain Gun Owners, the largest gun rights group in Colorado) and for the last 5 years with the National Association for Gun Rights.

While relatively new to the political landscape – having been formed in 2001 – NAGR is growing rapidly as dissatisfaction with the compromises of the institutional gun lobby have become more and more apparent. NAGR’s strategy is pretty simple: Hold politicians accountable for their actions, and draw a line in the sand, standing against any compromise of our God-given right to keep and bear arms. You can read more about our strategy here

For those who believe that they would rather spend their money on “trusted” groups such as the NRA – for fear that groups like National Association for Gun Rights just want your money – first do yourself the favor of researching the salaries of the top executives at places like the NRA to see where, exactly, that money is going. The National Association for Gun Rights does not have high-paid executives – it has a staff of people who are dedicated to the cause of freedom rather than making six- and seven-figure salaries. Victories such as winning the battle of Constitutional Carry in Wyoming would not be possible otherwise.

We work tightly with numerous state groups such as Wyoming Gun Owners, Rocky Mountain Gun Owners, Georgia Gun Owners, Iowa Gun Owners, Wisconsin Gun Owners, and Grass Roots North Carolina, (to name a few), in order to affect change at the state level, rather than putting all our effort into the fight on the national level. We believe that more positive change can be made by ensuring the election of staunch, pro-gun officials at the state level as well as stopping anti-gun politicians from being reelected. Each state has its own nuances, and that is how we are growing – by having people on the ground in each state around the country in order to best understand how to win these political battles. We refuse to sit in a cushy office in D.C. and claim to know what is going on in your home town without having been there.

If you’re interested in slick, Gucci-loafered lobbyist who buy $200 lunches in posh D.C. eateries, we’re not your group.

We’re experienced, in-the-trenches ground fighters, who want to see our gun rights preserved. And we’re tired of the backroom deals that have slowly but surely turned our “right” into a privilege.

As far as "supporting those who work on issues like the Chicago/McDonald case", suggest you READ Justice Alito's majority opinion, since I'm actually quoted in it.

Dudley Brown quoted by US Supreme Court

The original post brings up an e-mail we sent out about limitations on our affiliated federal PAC. Those who follow the FEC rules (which are EXTREMELY strict) know that an affiliated PAC cannot ask for a penny from those who aren't members of our main organization (which is a 501-c-4). And communications to non-members have been restricted by legislation like McCain/Feingold and other campaign finance deform laws.

The NRA-supported "DISCLOSE Act", which failed to pass, also placed grave restrictions on Constitutionally protected speech to gun owners.

Again, do what you wish, of course, but –– all humility aside –– I'll put my pro-gun credentials up against anyone in America.

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Posted: 12/27/2011 10:55:41 AM EST
Oh, boy!

IN on 1.
"Hey, does this rag smell like chloroform to you?....."

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Posted: 12/27/2011 11:07:05 AM EST
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Posted: 12/27/2011 11:18:25 AM EST
Originally Posted By Old_Painless:
Originally Posted By Hard_Rock:
Okay, I'm disgusted by the NRA ........


Why?

The NRA is the voice of American gun owners and is the big player in the halls of Congress.

Support the NRA.

(Life and Benefactor NRA member.)



This.

Every 2 years I renew.

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Posted: 12/27/2011 11:21:00 AM EST
[Last Edit: 12/27/2011 11:22:39 AM EST by Vault_Boy]
I know Dudley, and he's about the farthest from a scam artist/anti plant as you can get.
He's a 2nd amendment absolutist, and he's been *very* effective in CO for many years. If you're a Romney type that might bother you.

ETA: I'm also an NRA life member since the 1970's.
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Posted: 12/27/2011 12:04:07 PM EST
Originally Posted By Dudley_Brown:
Really?

Scam artist?

Before you go calling people names, you might want to talk with them.

Do what you wish, of course, but –– all humility aside –– I'll put my pro-gun credentials up against anyone in America.

First and foremost, I'm a pretty open book.

(and, incidentally, I'm a HUGE AR-15 nut –– as you might tell by the logos of the organizations I've created)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dudley_Brown

As someone who has been involved as a gun lobbyist for almost 20 years,I've dedicated my entire adult life to fighting for individual gun rights both in myhome state of Colorado (through Rocky Mountain Gun Owners, the largest gun rights group in Colorado) and for the last 5 years with the National Association for Gun Rights.

While relatively new to the political landscape – having been formed in 2001 – NAGR is growing rapidly as dissatisfaction with the compromises of the institutional gun lobby have become more and more apparent. NAGR’s strategy is pretty simple: Hold politicians accountable for their actions, and draw a line in the sand, standing against any compromise of our God-given right to keep and bear arms. You can read more about our strategy here

For those who believe that they would rather spend their money on “trusted” groups such as the NRA – for fear that groups like National Association for Gun Rights just want your money – first do yourself the favor of researching the salaries of the top executives at places like the NRA to see where, exactly, that money is going. The National Association for Gun Rights does not have high-paid executives – it has a staff of people who are dedicated to the cause of freedom rather than making six- and seven-figure salaries. Victories such as winning the battle of Constitutional Carry in Wyoming would not be possible otherwise.

We work tightly with numerous state groups such as Wyoming Gun Owners, Rocky Mountain Gun Owners, Georgia Gun Owners, Iowa Gun Owners, Wisconsin Gun Owners, and Grass Roots North Carolina, (to name a few), in order to affect change at the state level, rather than putting all our effort into the fight on the national level. We believe that more positive change can be made by ensuring the election of staunch, pro-gun officials at the state level as well as stopping anti-gun politicians from being reelected. Each state has its own nuances, and that is how we are growing – by having people on the ground in each state around the country in order to best understand how to win these political battles. We refuse to sit in a cushy office in D.C. and claim to know what is going on in your home town without having been there.

If you’re interested in slick, Gucci-loafered lobbyist who buy $200 lunches in posh D.C. eateries, we’re not your group.

We’re experienced, in-the-trenches ground fighters, who want to see our gun rights preserved. And we’re tired of the backroom deals that have slowly but surely turned our “right” into a privilege.

As far as "supporting those who work on issues like the Chicago/McDonald case", suggest you READ Justice Alito's majority opinion, since I'm actually quoted in it.

Dudley Brown quoted by US Supreme Court

The original post brings up an e-mail we sent out about limitations on our affiliated federal PAC. Those who follow the FEC rules (which are EXTREMELY strict) know that an affiliated PAC cannot ask for a penny from those who aren't members of our main organization (which is a 501-c-4). And communications to non-members have been restricted by legislation like McCain/Feingold and other campaign finance deform laws.

The NRA-supported "DISCLOSE Act", which failed to pass, also placed grave restrictions on Constitutionally protected speech to gun owners.

Again, do what you wish, of course, but –– all humility aside –– I'll put my pro-gun credentials up against anyone in America.

Dudley Brown
Executive Director
National Association for Gun Rights


First of all, don't even think of going down the "I'll put my pro-gun creds against anyone in America" BS. I guarantee that if I don't mop the floor with you, there are others here that will on what we've done for our 2nd Amendment Rights. I'll give you a hint, I've been working on the 2nd Amendment stuff since before the Hughes Amendment. I've been spit on, threatened, and worse. I've been in the faces of our elected officials for more than 25 years and I continue to do so. Yeah, I'm very familiar with the McDonald decision. So you're quoted in it, I supplied the guns for Heller II. I'm working with Heller on the next few cases now. So, still want to throw the creds card?

Now, on McCain-Feingold. Dude, it's been years since that got struck down. There is NO restriction about disclosing who you support. That is complete bullshit and you know it. You're whoring for money by lying about restrictions that DO NOT EXIST. This is what I have a problem with you and your organization about. Don't take the low road like the anti's. We must hold the moral high ground and your antics are not the moral high ground. Basically, you're lying in an attempt to gain more members and money. It's a dishonest endeavor and you should be absolutely ashamed that you're using such a dishonest tactic.

I'm just waiting for Bubbles to come in here and tear your ass up on the McCain-Feingold issue. She's much more eloquent that I am on that subject.

So, as long as you see fit to try to BS the gun owning community, I'll spread the word and call you out on it.

Merry Christmas.



When the hammer drops, the BS stops!

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Posted: 12/27/2011 12:51:29 PM EST
Since my name and credentials were being questioned, I said "I'll put my pro-gun credentials up...."

I did NOT suggest I was the be-all, end-all of gun rights. But if you attack my intentions, I'll compare them.

I'm not hiding behind an avatar/username. So I can't check your credentials.

–––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––­–
Back to the actual issue:

Do you or "Bubbles" run Federal PACs? If so, which ones? State PACs? If so....

Despite McCain/Feingold being overturned, many states passed campaign finance laws that mirrored it.
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Posted: 12/27/2011 1:42:02 PM EST
[Last Edit: 12/27/2011 1:46:06 PM EST by Bartholomew_Roberts]
I notice that in your initial response to Hard_Rock, you neglected to actually address the issue that concerned him ("It’s illegal for me to tell you which candidates the National Association for Gun Rights PAC supports. The Internal Revenue Service (IRS) and the Federal Election Commission (FEC) expressly forbid me from telling you which candidates are so solid on gun rights that I want you to help us help them.")
).

Where is the federal law or regulation promulgated by the IRS and/or FEC that says you may not tell people who your PAC endorses? Also, what does state law have to do with this, aren't you claiming that this is from the IRS and FEC?
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Posted: 12/27/2011 2:02:33 PM EST
[Last Edit: 12/27/2011 2:07:14 PM EST by Spade]
Originally Posted By Bartholomew_Roberts:
I notice that in your initial response to Hard_Rock, you neglected to actually address the issue that concerned him ("It’s illegal for me to tell you which candidates the National Association for Gun Rights PAC supports. The Internal Revenue Service (IRS) and the Federal Election Commission (FEC) expressly forbid me from telling you which candidates are so solid on gun rights that I want you to help us help them.")
).

Where is the federal law or regulation promulgated by the IRS and/or FEC that says you may not tell people who your PAC endorses? Also, what does state law have to do with this, aren't you claiming that this is from the IRS and FEC?


It isn't illegal for a PAC to endorse people.

It is illegal if you are a 501(c)(3) and not a PAC.

http://www.pagunblog.com/2010/06/22/reading-the-chess-board-2/

Does NAGR still not have a lobbyist on the hill? If you don't actually have somebody doing the whole shmoozing thing in Congress then nobody cares.

ETA: Wait, NAGR is a 501(c)(4). They can totally participate.
501(c)(4) organizations may lobby for legislation, and unlike 501(c)(3) organizations they may also participate in political campaigns and elections, as long as campaigning is not the organization's primary purpose. The tax exemption for 501(c)(4) organizations applies to most of their operations, but contributions may be subject to gift tax, and income spent on political activities - generally the advocacy of a particular candidate in an election - is taxable


That's from wikipedia.

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Posted: 12/27/2011 2:17:20 PM EST
Originally Posted By Spade:
Originally Posted By Bartholomew_Roberts:
I notice that in your initial response to Hard_Rock, you neglected to actually address the issue that concerned him ("It’s illegal for me to tell you which candidates the National Association for Gun Rights PAC supports. The Internal Revenue Service (IRS) and the Federal Election Commission (FEC) expressly forbid me from telling you which candidates are so solid on gun rights that I want you to help us help them.")
).

Where is the federal law or regulation promulgated by the IRS and/or FEC that says you may not tell people who your PAC endorses? Also, what does state law have to do with this, aren't you claiming that this is from the IRS and FEC?


It isn't illegal for a PAC to endorse people.

It is illegal if you are a 501(c)(3) and not a PAC.

http://www.pagunblog.com/2010/06/22/reading-the-chess-board-2/

Does NAGR still not have a lobbyist on the hill? If you don't actually have somebody doing the whole shmoozing thing in Congress then nobody cares.

ETA: Wait, NAGR is a 501(c)(4). They can totally participate.
501(c)(4) organizations may lobby for legislation, and unlike 501(c)(3) organizations they may also participate in political campaigns and elections, as long as campaigning is not the organization's primary purpose. The tax exemption for 501(c)(4) organizations applies to most of their operations, but contributions may be subject to gift tax, and income spent on political activities - generally the advocacy of a particular candidate in an election - is taxable


That's from wikipedia.



Exactly, it isn't illegal yet, they are claiming that it is. If he's such a stand up guy, why is he lying about it?
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Posted: 12/27/2011 2:20:05 PM EST
[Last Edit: 12/28/2011 10:42:57 AM EST by Lon_Moer]
Hmmmm..... this thread started and "ended" on Christmas, with one dissension post. Then on the first business day after the holiday, Mr. Brown shows up to post his own rebuttal AND comes back with a team membership by his second posting............. I'm guessing someone forwarded this thread to Mr brown.
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Posted: 12/27/2011 2:21:22 PM EST
I can't answer the question of Dudley being right or not on the disclosure question, but I will say that he's extremely pro-2A. Its because of Dudley's efforts I can still ccw at work

(Dudley, I work for CSU, and thank you for your efforts).
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Posted: 12/27/2011 2:30:37 PM EST
[Last Edit: 12/27/2011 2:31:20 PM EST by Lumpy03]
Originally Posted By Hard_Rock:
Originally Posted By Spade:
Originally Posted By Bartholomew_Roberts:
I notice that in your initial response to Hard_Rock, you neglected to actually address the issue that concerned him ("It’s illegal for me to tell you which candidates the National Association for Gun Rights PAC supports. The Internal Revenue Service (IRS) and the Federal Election Commission (FEC) expressly forbid me from telling you which candidates are so solid on gun rights that I want you to help us help them.")
).

Where is the federal law or regulation promulgated by the IRS and/or FEC that says you may not tell people who your PAC endorses? Also, what does state law have to do with this, aren't you claiming that this is from the IRS and FEC?


It isn't illegal for a PAC to endorse people.

It is illegal if you are a 501(c)(3) and not a PAC.

http://www.pagunblog.com/2010/06/22/reading-the-chess-board-2/

Does NAGR still not have a lobbyist on the hill? If you don't actually have somebody doing the whole shmoozing thing in Congress then nobody cares.

ETA: Wait, NAGR is a 501(c)(4). They can totally participate.
501(c)(4) organizations may lobby for legislation, and unlike 501(c)(3) organizations they may also participate in political campaigns and elections, as long as campaigning is not the organization's primary purpose. The tax exemption for 501(c)(4) organizations applies to most of their operations, but contributions may be subject to gift tax, and income spent on political activities - generally the advocacy of a particular candidate in an election - is taxable


That's from wikipedia.



Exactly, it isn't illegal yet, they are claiming that it is. If he's such a stand up guy, why is he lying about it?



*crickets....*

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Posted: 12/27/2011 2:32:34 PM EST
Ah, the same guy who was spamming my e-mail address about how HR 822 (right to carry reciprocity bill) was really a back door gun ban. With Pro-2nd guys like that, who needs the Brady Campaign?
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Posted: 12/27/2011 2:35:12 PM EST
uh, is it a "problem" to post someone's phone and fax numbers, since he apparently "accidently'd" everything out of his post?
The storm is brewing...
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Posted: 12/27/2011 2:43:45 PM EST
I support the NFOA here in Nebraska, am a NRA life member, and just became a Second Amemdment Foundation life member.

The SAF is the organization that seems to be suing citys/states/DC about gun rights the most.
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Posted: 12/27/2011 2:48:41 PM EST
Larry Pratt must be on vacation, or has lost his edge. That's the kind of schtick he used to be the master of. He is being outclassed at his own game.
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Posted: 12/27/2011 2:52:12 PM EST
Tag for later NAGR quotes
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Posted: 12/27/2011 2:57:25 PM EST
Pro-Gun, Pro-Obama...its like being anti-gay but pro-buttsecks
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Posted: 12/27/2011 3:34:35 PM EST
Originally Posted By Bartholomew_Roberts:
I notice that in your initial response to Hard_Rock, you neglected to actually address the issue that concerned him ("It’s illegal for me to tell you which candidates the National Association for Gun Rights PAC supports. The Internal Revenue Service (IRS) and the Federal Election Commission (FEC) expressly forbid me from telling you which candidates are so solid on gun rights that I want you to help us help them.")
).

Where is the federal law or regulation promulgated by the IRS and/or FEC that says you may not tell people who your PAC endorses? Also, what does state law have to do with this, aren't you claiming that this is from the IRS and FEC?

Prior to the USSC gutting McCain-Feingold almost two years ago the laws regarding PAC endorsements and expenditures were much stricter. That's not the case any more.
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Posted: 12/27/2011 3:55:38 PM EST
[Last Edit: 12/27/2011 3:58:40 PM EST by Bartholomew_Roberts]
Originally Posted By Bubbles:
Originally Posted By Bartholomew_Roberts:
I notice that in your initial response to Hard_Rock, you neglected to actually address the issue that concerned him ("It’s illegal for me to tell you which candidates the National Association for Gun Rights PAC supports. The Internal Revenue Service (IRS) and the Federal Election Commission (FEC) expressly forbid me from telling you which candidates are so solid on gun rights that I want you to help us help them.")
).

Where is the federal law or regulation promulgated by the IRS and/or FEC that says you may not tell people who your PAC endorses? Also, what does state law have to do with this, aren't you claiming that this is from the IRS and FEC?

Prior to the USSC gutting McCain-Feingold almost two years ago the laws regarding PAC endorsements and expenditures were much stricter. That's not the case any more.


Citizen's United has been out for awhile now; but even prior to CItizen's United, I had no trouble finding out who GOA endorsed in the 2006 elections, even though I was not a member (See: http://beta.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=513859). Same thing for 2008 (See: http://gunowners.org/votetb08.htm. Now Mr. Brown asserted that the FEC and IRS had made it illegal for the National Association of Gun Rights PAC to tell you who they supported unless you were a "legal member" of the National Association of Gun Rights. And since I am assuming Hard_Rock didn't pull up a spam email from almost 2 years ago to complain about it now, I'm guessing he made the claim recently.

So naturally, that strikes me as odd that NAGR/Dudley Brown would claim that at all and let alone recently and since they haven't used either of their 2 posts thus far to clarify the original issue, it continues to strike me as odd.

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Posted: 12/27/2011 8:05:05 PM EST
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Posted: 12/28/2011 9:48:09 AM EST
Originally Posted By Bartholomew_Roberts:
Originally Posted By Bubbles:
Originally Posted By Bartholomew_Roberts:
I notice that in your initial response to Hard_Rock, you neglected to actually address the issue that concerned him ("It’s illegal for me to tell you which candidates the National Association for Gun Rights PAC supports. The Internal Revenue Service (IRS) and the Federal Election Commission (FEC) expressly forbid me from telling you which candidates are so solid on gun rights that I want you to help us help them.")
).

Where is the federal law or regulation promulgated by the IRS and/or FEC that says you may not tell people who your PAC endorses? Also, what does state law have to do with this, aren't you claiming that this is from the IRS and FEC?

Prior to the USSC gutting McCain-Feingold almost two years ago the laws regarding PAC endorsements and expenditures were much stricter. That's not the case any more.


Citizen's United has been out for awhile now; but even prior to CItizen's United, I had no trouble finding out who GOA endorsed in the 2006 elections, even though I was not a member (See: http://beta.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=513859). Same thing for 2008 (See: http://gunowners.org/votetb08.htm. Now Mr. Brown asserted that the FEC and IRS had made it illegal for the National Association of Gun Rights PAC to tell you who they supported unless you were a "legal member" of the National Association of Gun Rights. And since I am assuming Hard_Rock didn't pull up a spam email from almost 2 years ago to complain about it now, I'm guessing he made the claim recently.

So naturally, that strikes me as odd that NAGR/Dudley Brown would claim that at all and let alone recently and since they haven't used either of their 2 posts thus far to clarify the original issue, it continues to strike me as odd.



What's odd about it? It was a cheap trick to try to gain members and money. It's backfiring and making them look really bad. He's not going to address it because anything he says will just make things worse. Given that a representative of the organization has come here to 'defend' themselves and won't address the issue is bad enough... He'd be better off making a correction letter and sending it out and avoiding these kinds of scam attempts in the future. His responses here have shown me the kind of organization NAGR is. It's one I would never associate my name with at all.

The kind of tactics used by NAGR does a lot of harm to the community and our efforts at large. I'm sick of groups like this fear mongering and lying to get support and money. The 2nd Amendment isn't a money making scheme, it's a fucking Civil Right and groups fucking around with it on both sides of the issue. I hope that Mr. Brown understands that he could easily lose his 501-c4 status by doing stuff like this. Just the thing the anti's love to tout.
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Posted: 12/28/2011 9:57:49 AM EST
Originally Posted By HeavyMetal:
......anybody remember what happened to the Boy who Cried Wolf?

If you want my money and support, be honest with me.



+1

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Posted: 12/28/2011 10:04:14 AM EST
tl/dr

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