Site Notices
11/27/2014 12:14:39 AM
Author
Message
TUBBY
Member
Offline
Posts: 3873
Feedback: 100% (7)
Posted: 12/24/2011 5:09:46 PM EST
[Last Edit: 12/24/2011 5:09:46 PM EST by Cold]
I have been reading a lot about the penetration against cover with these 2 calibers.

I am somewhat confused. I have read that at long range versus a steel helmet the 5.56 is better. What gives?

Is it really an issue? If a bad guy is hidden behind a brick wall is it worth expendiing the ammo to punch thru or wait until he moves?

Hypothetically.

Sorry for grammar. I have been into the Amarula tohingt.
Blacktide
Dog of the State
Offline
Posts: 1493
Feedback: 100% (8)
Link To This Post
Posted: 12/24/2011 4:20:23 PM EST
[Last Edit: 12/24/2011 4:22:07 PM EST by Blacktide]
Yes?



ETA: Serious response: Caliber choice is always a compromise. There's a reason why most pros and experts are OK with the 5.56. What's more important to you? That big punch of a .308 or the high volume and shoot-ability of the 5.56? What do you expect to be using this for?
DaveSpud
Offline
Posts: 509
Feedback: 0% (0)
Link To This Post
Posted: 12/24/2011 5:26:57 PM EST
I don't think there is any question that .308 FMJ will penetrate far more than 5.56 FMJ.

5.56 ap 'might' penetrate more than 7.62 FMJ, but I highly doubt it.
hotbiggun42
Member
Offline
Posts: 13394
Feedback: 100% (82)
Link To This Post
Posted: 12/24/2011 5:31:30 PM EST
So 308 will not penetrate a helment?
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. .
ArmyInfantryVet
Member
Military
Offline
Posts: 32775
Feedback: 100% (3)
Link To This Post
Posted: 12/24/2011 5:32:14 PM EST
In some circumstances, yes 5.56 will penetrate better than 7.62 NATO
VBC
Iddy Biddy Biddy Commidy
Offline
Posts: 15353
Feedback: 0% (0)
Link To This Post
Posted: 12/24/2011 5:33:20 PM EST
Penetration is such a touchy feely word.
Agent_Funky
Duc, sequere, aut de via decede, Savvy?
Offline
Posts: 14422
Feedback: 0% (0)
Link To This Post
Posted: 12/24/2011 5:33:21 PM EST
[Last Edit: 12/24/2011 5:34:18 PM EST by Agent_Funky]
Originally Posted By TUBBY:
I have been reading a lot about the penetration against cover with these 2 calibers.

I am somewhat confused. I have read that at long range versus a steel helmet the 5.56 is better. What gives?

Is it really an issue? If a bad guy is hidden behind a brick wall is it worth expendiing the ammo to punch thru or wait until he moves?

Hypothetically.

Sorry for grammar. I have been into the Amarula tohingt.


I have both calibres.

Scenario is key. So is the ability to aim and hit the target with confidence.

Any fucking retard can pull a trigger 30 times and almost drop the target........It's the guy who cantake aim and drop the target first shot that wins the day.

If you want to be effective, learn to shoot and I don't mean plinking at 100 yds..get out to 1000yds+. When you have leaned to shoot and have become an accomplished competitive shooter you will be able to make the right calibre choices through educated and well informed judgement.

If you have to ask the question you need more range time. Range time is fun....it's a win win situation
There is a fine line between fishing and just standing on the shore like an idiot.

Proud Member - Team Ranstad

131050
VBC
Iddy Biddy Biddy Commidy
Offline
Posts: 15354
Feedback: 0% (0)
Link To This Post
Posted: 12/24/2011 5:33:36 PM EST
Penetration is such a touchy feely word.
hdhogman
Member
Offline
Posts: 3163
Feedback: 0% (0)
Link To This Post
Posted: 12/24/2011 5:39:24 PM EST
Bigger is better.
When BG ferrets out, let him have it.
"If It Has Tits, Wheels, or a CPU, it's gonna cause you Problems."
robplumm
Member
Offline
Posts: 6850
Feedback: 0% (0)
Link To This Post
Posted: 12/24/2011 5:39:30 PM EST
Should you bother shooting through the wall? Well..yeah.

Might not get the kill...but I can guarantee they will move...

Had an instance of that one of my trucks took fire from a couple guys on a rooftop. The .50 was loaded with SLAP....which punched through the wall on the top of the roof. No kill...but bad guys left in a hurry when chucks of wall and tungsten started flowing their "cover" All of a sudden it wasn't so cool to be shooting at the Americans on the bridge...
V12
Member
Offline
Posts: 813
Feedback: 100% (13)
Link To This Post
Posted: 12/24/2011 5:41:05 PM EST
I would much rather be hit by 5.56 than .308. I don't care how deep either one goes.
Tekpc007
Member
Offline
Posts: 3687
Feedback: 100% (6)
Link To This Post
Posted: 12/24/2011 5:41:36 PM EST
watching the new magpul precision rifle video , they mention testing tissue penatration on pigs (no body armor) with 308 at 1 mile and it was going through the pig.
Guns and Women, I love the smell of both.
But one gets you into trouble and the other gets you out.
k0331b
Protocol Dictates Action!
Offline
Posts: 1531
Feedback: 100% (1)
Link To This Post
Posted: 12/24/2011 5:43:18 PM EST
Originally Posted By Agent_Funky:

I have both calibres.

Scenario is key. So is the ability to aim and hit the target with confidence.

Any fucking retard can pull a trigger 30 times and almost drop the target........It's the guy who cantake aim and drop the target first shot that wins the day.

If you want to be effective, learn to shoot and I don't mean plinking at 100 yds..get out to 1000yds+. When you have leaned to shoot and have become an accomplished competitive shooter you will be able to make the right calibre choices through educated and well informed judgement.

If you have to ask the question you need more range time. Range time is fun....it's a win win situation


So much win in this post!
"Don't forget that you're First Marines! Not all the Communists in hell can overrun you!"
- Chesty Puller motivating his men at Chosin Reservoir

Thanks sweatpants for the membership!
Jeffreysox
Its a zombie bite.
Offline
Posts: 6173
Feedback: 100% (39)
Link To This Post
Posted: 12/24/2011 5:45:14 PM EST
Originally Posted By V12:
I would much rather be hit by 5.56 than .308. I don't care how deep either one goes.


I'd rather take no rounds, thank you very much.
A government big enough to give you everything, is big enough to take everything away.

Fuck Obama.
Jman78
Always lands butter side up.
Offline
Posts: 2074
Feedback: 100% (1)
Link To This Post
Posted: 12/24/2011 5:47:49 PM EST
Originally Posted By VBC:
Penetration is such a touchy feely word.


Yes, it warms the cockles of my heart.
hondajohn
Member
Offline
Posts: 1116
Feedback: 100% (12)
Link To This Post
Posted: 12/24/2011 5:51:50 PM EST
5.56 55gr fmj has the ability to shoot through more steel than 7.62x51 fmj. When buying 3/8 armor plate if it stops the 55grn it will stop the 308. Now as far as busting up cover I.e. Concrete blocks filled with cement or other ballistic resistant. Materials the 308 energy has the ability to break things more easily thus getting through it with less rounds but for ferrous armor the 5.56 is better .

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
Is it over yet?
Gunwritr
Member
Offline
Posts: 7140
Feedback: 100% (12)
Link To This Post
Posted: 12/24/2011 6:03:46 PM EST
[Last Edit: 12/24/2011 6:18:59 PM EST by Gunwritr]
Originally Posted By DaveSpud:
I don't think there is any question that .308 FMJ will penetrate far more than 5.56 FMJ.

5.56 ap 'might' penetrate more than 7.62 FMJ, but I highly doubt it.


and........you would be wrong....

PERFORMANCE OF TYPICAL MILITARY RIFLES AGAINST
NATO 3.5mm STEEL TEST PLATE

AKM 7.62x39mm PS: 300 CP, 400 50% CP/50% PP
AK-74 5.45x39mm PS: 600 CP, 800 FP
M16A1 5.56 M193: 400 CP, 500 50% CP/50% PP, 600 FP
M16A2 5.56 M855: 600 CP, 700 CP, 800 50% CP/50% PP, 1000 FP
Rifle M1, Ball M2: 500 CP, 600 FP
Rifle M14, Ball M80: 700 CP, 800 FP
Rifle M21, M118 Special Ball: 800 CP, 900 50% CP/50% PP, 1000 FP
Carbine M1, Ball M1: 100 CP, 200 FP

CP= Complete Perforation in which a major portion of the projectile exits
the armor. PP= Partial Penetration in which a hole is generated but the
major portion of the projectile does not exit the armor. FP= Failure to
to Penetrate, the plate may be dented but it is intact.
This data is from testing conducted by the USMC Firepower Division
at Quantico, VA during the Modified Operation Test in the early 1980's.


Keep in mind bullet construction has a lot to do with penetration. The 7.62mm M80 ball
load is an old design from the 1950s with a simple lead core. The M855 has a mild steel
core and is smaller in diameter and does better against steel. However, change the
barrier type and the M80 ball load might do better.
A Dead Whale, or a Stove Boat.

"They were always cold, and usually hungry as well."

FPO: "We will not allow them to take us like beasts to the slaughter."



Saber7
Poguemaster
Military
Offline
Posts: 1697
Feedback: 100% (11)
Link To This Post
Posted: 12/24/2011 6:23:33 PM EST
[Last Edit: 12/24/2011 6:25:00 PM EST by Saber7]
5.56>7.62x51
" Faster, Faster until the thrill of speed overcomes the fear of death." -Hunter S. Thompson
VBC
Iddy Biddy Biddy Commidy
Offline
Posts: 15365
Feedback: 0% (0)
Link To This Post
Posted: 12/24/2011 6:37:49 PM EST
Originally Posted By Saber7:
5.56>7.62x51


Are you shitting me?

Give each credit due.
DragoMuseveni
Member
Offline
Posts: 17831
Feedback: 100% (6)
Link To This Post
Posted: 12/24/2011 6:44:25 PM EST
Does 7.62mm have a steel penetrator like M855?
VBC
Iddy Biddy Biddy Commidy
Offline
Posts: 15369
Feedback: 0% (0)
Link To This Post
Posted: 12/24/2011 6:54:19 PM EST
Originally Posted By DragoMuseveni:
Does 7.62mm have a steel penetrator like M855?


I just know that big lead flying fast will fuck shit up. The bigger the flying faster, the more fucked up the impact will be. There is always a trade-off between carryability and ammo capacity vs. devastation per limited ammo.

MikeE23666
Member
Offline
Posts: 961
Feedback: 100% (11)
Link To This Post
Posted: 12/24/2011 6:55:59 PM EST
Keep this in mind, you ask this question on ar.15.com you will more 5.56 is better then 7.62.
If you were to ask this on falfiles or the M14 firing line the opposite. This question is like asking if the chicken or the egg came first.

Me, I did what arfcom always says..i got both.


Mike
VBC
Iddy Biddy Biddy Commidy
Offline
Posts: 15370
Feedback: 0% (0)
Link To This Post
Posted: 12/24/2011 6:59:33 PM EST
Not just that, but a lot of you lady wristed faggots would probably flinch too bad to shoot a man's caliber accurately anyway.
Capt-Planet
Cyber-Luddite
Military
Offline
Posts: 4773
Feedback: 100% (2)
Link To This Post
Posted: 12/24/2011 7:51:04 PM EST
Originally Posted By MikeE23666:
Keep this in mind, you ask this question on ar.15.com you will more 5.56 is better then 7.62.
If you were to ask this on falfiles or the M14 firing line the opposite. This question is like asking if the chicken or the egg came first.

Me, I did what arfcom always says..i got both.
Mike


The egg came first. By definition, a chicken is a domestic born animal. The first chickens were the offspring of jungle fowl which were hatched in captivity.
"You're amazing at being apathetic."
Stiffy
Offline
Posts: 805
Feedback: 0% (0)
Link To This Post
Posted: 12/24/2011 7:57:33 PM EST
10mm
RictusGrin
Member
Military
Offline
Posts: 15083
Feedback: 100% (2)
Link To This Post
Posted: 12/24/2011 7:59:53 PM EST
I don't even care any more. The info is out there.
To Mega Therion
Gunwritr
Member
Offline
Posts: 7143
Feedback: 100% (12)
Link To This Post
Posted: 12/25/2011 9:39:38 PM EST
Originally Posted By DragoMuseveni:
Does 7.62mm have a steel penetrator like M855?



Why do I even bother posting......

A Dead Whale, or a Stove Boat.

"They were always cold, and usually hungry as well."

FPO: "We will not allow them to take us like beasts to the slaughter."



mcantu
Offline
Posts: 6668
Feedback: 0% (0)
Link To This Post
Posted: 12/25/2011 9:46:20 PM EST
[Last Edit: 12/25/2011 9:52:36 PM EST by mcantu]
look up the Army FM on urban warfare. it has charts with penetration values for both rounds vs urban structure materials...

edit: found it...http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/3-06-11/ch7.htm
huck
Offline
Posts: 1942
Feedback: 100% (33)
Link To This Post
Posted: 12/25/2011 10:11:39 PM EST
With comparable bullets the 7.62 kicks the 5.56's ass, no question. Put some AP in a 7.62 and in 5.56 and there is no contest. The 7.62 is a steel eater!
wareagleA5
Offline
Posts: 140
Feedback: 0% (0)
Link To This Post
Posted: 12/25/2011 10:11:44 PM EST
Originally Posted By Gunwritr:
Originally Posted By DaveSpud:
I don't think there is any question that .308 FMJ will penetrate far more than 5.56 FMJ.

5.56 ap 'might' penetrate more than 7.62 FMJ, but I highly doubt it.


and........you would be wrong....

PERFORMANCE OF TYPICAL MILITARY RIFLES AGAINST
NATO 3.5mm STEEL TEST PLATE

AKM 7.62x39mm PS: 300 CP, 400 50% CP/50% PP
AK-74 5.45x39mm PS: 600 CP, 800 FP
M16A1 5.56 M193: 400 CP, 500 50% CP/50% PP, 600 FP
M16A2 5.56 M855: 600 CP, 700 CP, 800 50% CP/50% PP, 1000 FP
Rifle M1, Ball M2: 500 CP, 600 FP
Rifle M14, Ball M80: 700 CP, 800 FP
Rifle M21, M118 Special Ball: 800 CP, 900 50% CP/50% PP, 1000 FP
Carbine M1, Ball M1: 100 CP, 200 FP

CP= Complete Perforation in which a major portion of the projectile exits
the armor. PP= Partial Penetration in which a hole is generated but the
major portion of the projectile does not exit the armor. FP= Failure to
to Penetrate, the plate may be dented but it is intact.
This data is from testing conducted by the USMC Firepower Division
at Quantico, VA during the Modified Operation Test in the early 1980's.


Keep in mind bullet construction has a lot to do with penetration. The 7.62mm M80 ball
load is an old design from the 1950s with a simple lead core. The M855 has a mild steel
core and is smaller in diameter and does better against steel. However, change the
barrier type and the M80 ball load might do better
.

When I was in the Marine Corps they showed us why taking good care of your sand bags was important. They filled 50 cal ammo cans with sand and shot them with an m16 and an m14, it only took one can to stop the 5.56 while it took two to stop the 7.62, add water and it took four cans to stop the 7.62. This was at close range though, about 25 yds.

UndoingRuin
Member
Offline
Posts: 361
Feedback: 0% (0)
Link To This Post
Posted: 12/26/2011 12:25:56 AM EST
Originally Posted By hotbiggun42:
So 308 will not penetrate a helment?


My buddy got hit in the head while in the guard tower. It hit the rhino mount first though. I would have shit my pants.
If you aint Cav...