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 The_Reaper
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Posted: 11/14/2011 3:08:51 PM
[Last Edit: 12/7/2011 7:14:30 PM by The_Reaper]
THE IMAGE ABOVE IS A PAID ADVERTISEMENT EDIT TO ADD: I found the receipt. I paid $490 for it on 2/7/1994. According to the Glock Serial Number Research Project HERE, someone thinks that gun wasn't made until March 1994. (off the subject, I bought a Stainless Ruger Redhawk a few months later for $390. The price of those have gone up 100%, as compared to the Glock which has only gone up about 5%) I've fired several hundred rounds through it. Mostly Winchester Silvertips. When DoubleTap started offering ammo for it, I bought a bunch of their ammo loaded with 165 grain Gold Dot bullets. It was supposed to be the ultimate 10mm self defense round. But I noticed some of the brass looked like this: 
I thought that was WAY too close to failure. I bought a KKM barrel and used that instead. But when I compared the two barrels, it looked like too much of the factory chamber was unsupported. I know some of it is unsupported to gain reliability. But this looked excessive. I called Glock, and they asked that I send the gun in for inspection. I asked if I could just send in the barrel, and they said no. The whole gun. Screw that. I'll just use the KKM barrel. This was probably around 2004. Fast forward to last week. I reconsidered the use of an aftermarket barrel in a carry weapon. So I ordered a new factory G20 barrel. I got it Friday, and compared it to the original barrel. The original 1994 barrel is on the left. The new 2011 barrel is on the right. And NO, I did not use a Dremel on the original. I never touched it. 
Some people wondered if the case bulges were caused by the unsupported chamber, OR if it was caused by recoil generated bullet-setback. Good question. So I went to the range this morning. With the original barrel in the pistol, I used calipers to measure the overall length of a round. I loaded it into the magazine and then put another round on top. I chambered the round that was on top and fired it into the berm. I then ejected the first round and remeasured the overall length. Identical to what it was. And there was no bulge on the fired DoubleTap brass. Thinking it might take a few rounds to cause bullet setback, I loaded the first round again, and then two others. Chambered the round, and fired into the berm. KaBoom. Damnit. 
Blood blister continued to swell until I finally had to lance it. 
The bullet left the gun. Brass still in the chamber. Slide is jammed. Can't cycle it to remove the brass for inspection. It blew the magazine out of the gun, broke the mag release on the way out. And the piece of plastic from the frame landed about 20 feet away. (took me a half hour to find it amongst all the shit on the ground at the range) Good thing is, this happened at the range instead of when I might have NEEDED the gun for real self defense. Bad thing is, I had everything at my disposal to ensure this exact thing didn't happen. A new barrel. I had to tempt fate and attempt a test with the old barrel. I believe the barrel and slide are probably fine, but the frame is toast. (not that I'd ever attempt to use the barrel or slide ever again) From what little I can see, it appears the brass blew out near the feed ramp, where it is unsupported. ========================================================================= EDIT TO ADD PHOTOS BELOW 11/15/2011 8:12:00 PM CST ========================================================================= EVERYONE LOVES PICTURES, RIGHT? 
Someone suggested the cartridge ruptured out of battery. It appears to me that the barrel is still fully locked to the slide. 
Also, it appears the case head fully separated from the rest of the brass. Very difficult to get a good photo. Shining a light down the barrel though, I could clearly see light all the way around the brass case. These photos were the best I could do. 
========================================================================= EDIT TO ADD PHOTOS BELOW 11/16/2011 8:38:02 PM CST ========================================================================= Label indicates this is a July 2006 barrel: 
========================================================================= EDIT TO ADD PHOTOS BELOW 11/23/2011 ========================================================================= The replacement barrel purchased in 2008 is stamped L23487 The replacement barrel purchased in 2011 is stamped L23486 
========================================================================= I'll keep updates at the bottom of the original post UPDATE 11/29/2011 ========================================================================= I'd love to hear comments from people who gave me crap about not sending it to Glock to begin with. They are sending the slide and barrel back to me with a new frame. 
========================================================================= I'll keep updates at the bottom of the original post UPDATE 12/07/2011 ========================================================================= The pistol arrived via FedEx this morning. It came in a box for an olive drab model 21, SN GSL894 Also inside the box was the factory fired brass cases in the little envelope, fired from the GSL894. Not that any of that matters. Just interesting. The pistol was returned with a new 3rd generation frame and magazine. Serial number Gxxxxx ("x"s represent numbers) This is not a standard retail frame's serial number. To my knowledge, ALL retail frames have at least two letters. And all 3rd generation frames have 3 letters. It came with a standard right-handed magazine release and Glock rail. Exactly what I requested. Glock returned the pistol with the original slide and barrel. They kept my TruGlo TFO sights on the slide, but replaced my Wolf spring with a factory spring. (They put the Wolf spring in the box) |
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Posted: 11/14/2011 3:11:36 PM
Kaboom pics aren't loading.
Glad you weren't seriously hurt... |
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scotchymcdrinkerbean
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Posted: 11/14/2011 3:12:32 PM
Originally Posted By maleante:
Kaboom pics aren't loading. Glad you weren't seriously hurt... Working for me. Ditto on the "glad you weren't seriously hurt" part. |
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Fat_McNasty
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Posted: 11/14/2011 3:13:04 PM
so you put back in a barrel that was unsupported, and knowing that fired it?
WOW just WOW.. |
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California_Kid
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Posted: 11/14/2011 3:13:21 PM
Ouch.
Great pics. Thanks for posting this. |
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The_Reaper
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Posted: 11/14/2011 3:13:37 PM
Originally Posted By maleante:
Kaboom pics aren't loading. Glad you weren't seriously hurt... My internet provider sometimes has problems sending pics. I don't understand it. They are loading fine for me right now, but some photos weren't working for me yesterday. Sorry |
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Danner130
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Posted: 11/14/2011 3:13:53 PM
That was close to really, really bad.
Glock strikes again... |
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mongo001
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Posted: 11/14/2011 3:14:05 PM
Conclusion?
Only takes twice to setback a bullet enough to KABOOM a Glock? |
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50cal
Useful posts.....13
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Posted: 11/14/2011 3:14:11 PM
People can say what they want....... I won't buy or fire any glock but a 9mm. I own 3 and haven't had any problems.
Owned a 27 many years ago, sold it because I just didn't trust them. |
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Silver_Surfer
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Posted: 11/14/2011 3:14:16 PM
Send it in for a new replacement KaBoom
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far_right
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Posted: 11/14/2011 3:15:02 PM
in.
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The_Reaper
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Posted: 11/14/2011 3:15:07 PM
Originally Posted By Fat_McNasty:
so you put back in a barrel that was unsupported, and knowing that fired it? WOW just WOW.. I never claimed to be a rocket surgeon. 
Hey, that barrel worked fine every other time. And the first round didn't show any bulge at all. |
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Posted: 11/14/2011 3:15:29 PM
Yikes!
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NoVaGator
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Posted: 11/14/2011 3:15:40 PM
so the issue is clearly DoubleTap ammo
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The_Reaper
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Posted: 11/14/2011 3:15:56 PM
Originally Posted By mongo001:
Conclusion? Only takes twice to setback a bullet enough to KABOOM a Glock? NO. The cartridge that exploded was brand new and had never been in a magazine until it was chambered. |
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Posted: 11/14/2011 3:16:29 PM
holy shit! fuckin' glocks man
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Fat_McNasty
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Posted: 11/14/2011 3:17:09 PM
Originally Posted By The_Reaper:
Originally Posted By Fat_McNasty:
so you put back in a barrel that was unsupported, and knowing that fired it? WOW just WOW.. I never claimed to be a rocket surgeon.
Hey, that barrel worked fine every other time. And the first round didn't show any bulge at all. /facepalm Folks a word of caution, when your brass come out all messed up get the gun to a smith, and have it fixed. Don't keep shooting it. |
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Posted: 11/14/2011 3:17:36 PM
Placeholder
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UtahShotgunner
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Posted: 11/14/2011 3:17:46 PM
Well done pictures.
Thank you for your sacrifice. |
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callgood
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Posted: 11/14/2011 3:18:03 PM
[Last Edit: 11/14/2011 3:20:10 PM by callgood]
Originally Posted By maleante:
Kaboom pics aren't loading. Glad you weren't seriously hurt... Are you on a MAC? I am and they aren't loading for me. Non supported chamber. Double Tap. Maybe a bad combo. I've used a KKM in my G20 for years, even shot some DT, but that was 2005 vintage or so. |
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The_Reaper
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Posted: 11/14/2011 3:18:05 PM
Originally Posted By NoVaGator:
so the issue is clearly DoubleTap ammo I'd hate to point a finger at Glock OR DoubleTap. Winchester Silvertips bulged a little, but not to the extent of DT. So was DT brass too thin, too soft, or was it 100% a factor of the unsupported chamber? I believe that because Glock has changed how they machine the chamber area, maybe it is on them. |
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Forgetfull
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Posted: 11/14/2011 3:18:41 PM
Darn good job documenting it.
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iRidiculous
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Posted: 11/14/2011 3:18:47 PM
WOW, thanks for sharing!
In on 1. |
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mongo001
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Posted: 11/14/2011 3:19:00 PM
[Last Edit: 11/14/2011 3:20:39 PM by mongo001]
Originally Posted By The_Reaper:
Originally Posted By mongo001:
Conclusion? Only takes twice to setback a bullet enough to KABOOM a Glock? NO. The cartridge that exploded was brand new and had never been in a magazine until it was chambered. OK. I didn't follow the initial write up correctly then. Seems there has to be something more than just an unsupported chamber to cause a KB on a new cartridge. I'm off to KKM to get a 23 and 27 barrel. I'm not tempting fate any longer, even though my 23 has thousands of rounds through it, both factory and reloads, with not issue. |
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wildearp
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Posted: 11/14/2011 3:19:17 PM
Someone dicked with that feed ramp. Someone.
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Posted: 11/14/2011 3:19:20 PM
Oh shoot(no pun intended). 10mm is one of my favorite rounds, and I can't believe this is happening,
.
Is the Double Tap ammo a bit too hot or something? How about other brands of ammo?(actually too late, the gun is destroyed).
I've shot many, many rounds of 10mm through my Colt Delta Gold Cup, LAR Grizzly(I got a 10mm conversion kit), and few rounds through my Bren 10(actually down-loaded to 45ACP levels, gun is way to valuable to wear out, I am gooing to pass it on to my youngest son), and I have never had a problem. |
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Posted: 11/14/2011 3:19:30 PM
Good to see you will heal up fine. Sorry about your gun though.
Does Glock offer any kind of warranty for something like that ? |
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Posted: 11/14/2011 3:19:31 PM
Am I reading this right that you were using the old factory barrel, and that it was a previously unchambered round of DT that caused the Kb?
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Justin-Kase
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Posted: 11/14/2011 3:19:42 PM
Originally Posted By Fat_McNasty: so you put back in a barrel that was unsupported, and knowing that fired it? WOW just WOW.. Everything was going beautifully..... until he pulled the pin. Ditto on the glad your hand doesn't look more like the gun. |
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mdguy90
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Posted: 11/14/2011 3:19:59 PM
IN on 1 |
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The_Reaper
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Posted: 11/14/2011 3:20:45 PM
Originally Posted By wildearp:
Someone dicked with that feed ramp. Someone. I found a photo of another 2nd generation G20 barrel that looked identical. While it is possible the dealer sold me a used gun as a new one, I believe it was new. And I believe the barrel came from the factory that way. |
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The_Reaper
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Posted: 11/14/2011 3:22:20 PM
Originally Posted By Dagger41:
Good to see you will heal up fine. Sorry about your gun though. Does Glock offer any kind of warranty for something like that ? I'll send it to Glock for them to evaluate, but I don't expect them to do anything. I had every opportunity to avoid the accident. |
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Posted: 11/14/2011 3:22:21 PM
Always thought a powerhouse like a 10mm would be better in a steel framed 1911 type pistol.
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Darkstar117
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Posted: 11/14/2011 3:22:39 PM
Tag-n-junk.
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JIMBEAM
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Posted: 11/14/2011 3:24:00 PM
Wow
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3rdpig
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Posted: 11/14/2011 3:24:32 PM
[Last Edit: 11/14/2011 3:25:30 PM by 3rdpig]
I've fired many thousands of rounds through a 2nd gen Glock 20 with the stock barrel without a problem....until I bought Doubletap ammo.
10 rounds of DT was enough to convince me never to shoot it in the stock barrel again, the bulges in the case from using it are huge. My own hot loads, Reeds Ammo's hot loads or the original Norma loads don't leave a bulge like DT ammo does. It's a lot less pronounced in my 3rd gen Glock 29, but still more than other ammo.
It's up to the ammo manufacturer to produce ammo that's either safe in ALL guns chambered for that caliber, or put large warnings on the carton which guns it shouldn't be shot in.
So, in my humble opinion, DT either produced a load that's not safe in early Glock 10mm pistols, or they accidentally overloaded that particular cartridge. Either way, you need to send the gun to them and let them inspect it and decide if they'll replace it or not.
My opinion? They owe you a new pistol.
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The_Reaper
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Posted: 11/14/2011 3:24:33 PM
Something else to add:
It didn't hurt that bad. Best I could compare it to would be getting snapped by the big rubberband that comes on my morning newspaper. The blood blister looks bad, but it doesn't hurt. The finger is a little swollen, but isn't sore. Yet. |
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DarkStar
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Posted: 11/14/2011 3:25:01 PM
Originally Posted By PepPop:
Always thought a powerhouse like a 10mm would be better in a steel framed 1911 type pistol. Agreed, the 10mm belongs in a steel framed pistol... OP, I hope you do send in the 'remains' to Glock for inspection, I'd like to hear their thoughts on the feedramps... |
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Posted: 11/14/2011 3:25:54 PM
I will have to look at mine, I have a 2nd gen G20 as well.
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3rdpig
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Posted: 11/14/2011 3:26:38 PM
Originally Posted By DarkStar: Originally Posted By PepPop: Always thought a powerhouse like a 10mm would be better in a steel framed 1911 type pistol. Agreed, the 10mm belongs in a steel framed pistol... OP, I hope you do send in the 'remains' to Glock for inspection, I'd like to hear their thoughts on the feedramps... Like the early Delta's that cracked? Like the Witness that cracks? This is an ammo issue, not a gun issue. DT is producing loads that are not safe in early G20's. |
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Zhukov
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Posted: 11/14/2011 3:26:50 PM
[Last Edit: 11/14/2011 3:28:03 PM by Zhukov]
Originally Posted By NoVaGator: so the issue is clearly DoubleTap ammo It wouldn't terribly surprise me if it came down to that. I just can't understand why people buy hyper-velocity ammo loaded to insane pressure levels and run them through their gun thinking it will magically cause the bad guy to explode. [ETA] It never seems to occur to them that bad things can happen when you push the envelope like that. |
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iNuhBaDNayburhood
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Posted: 11/14/2011 3:27:53 PM
Isolated Incident. Move along. Nothing to see here.
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Posted: 11/14/2011 3:28:40 PM
Looks like you'll be sending your Glock back to Glock, after all?
Anyhow, I'm a reloader and I've read reports of guys weighing Double Tap brass and finding it to be a good deal lighter (less metal in critical areas?) than other factory brands. You can probably google it. After seeing deformations, once, maybe twice, I would have called it a day. Speed (pressure) kills. Chris |
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The_Reaper
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Posted: 11/14/2011 3:29:05 PM
Originally Posted By Zhukov:
Originally Posted By NoVaGator:
so the issue is clearly DoubleTap ammo It wouldn't terribly surprise me if it came down to that. I just can't understand why people buy hyper-velocity ammo loaded to insane pressure levels and run them through their gun thinking it will magically cause the bad guy to explode. [ETA] It never seems to occur to them that bad things can happen when you push the envelope like that. The Glock was designed with the Norma 10mm in mind, if I remember correctly. The DoubleTap was loaded within SAAMI specs, so theoretically the gun should have handled it just fine. Theoretically. |
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Keith_J
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Posted: 11/14/2011 3:29:44 PM
Originally Posted By PepPop: Always thought a powerhouse like a 10mm would be better in a steel framed 1911 type pistol. Early 10mm loads were quite powerful. Since then, most are much lower in pressure which is why Glock got away with such a shitty chamber. Plus they had to assure feeding and reliability. Enter boutique loads which are at the SAAMI limits. Old barrel with hot loads equals kB. 1911s in 10 mm have fully supported chambers as they are ramped. Because people back then respected the 10mm. |
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Fat_McNasty
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Posted: 11/14/2011 3:30:31 PM
Originally Posted By 3rdpig:
Originally Posted By DarkStar:
Originally Posted By PepPop:
Always thought a powerhouse like a 10mm would be better in a steel framed 1911 type pistol. Agreed, the 10mm belongs in a steel framed pistol... OP, I hope you do send in the 'remains' to Glock for inspection, I'd like to hear their thoughts on the feedramps... Like the early Delta's that cracked? Like the Witness that cracks? This is an ammo issue, not a gun issue. DT is producing loads that are not safe in early G20's. mines never cracked.. and its from 87 ish. |
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Posted: 11/14/2011 3:30:37 PM
Another vote that the ammo KB'ed your gun.
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The_Reaper
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Posted: 11/14/2011 3:31:24 PM
Originally Posted By ChrisGarrett:
Looks like you'll be sending your Glock back to Glock, after all? Anyhow, I'm a reloader and I've read reports of guys weighing Double Tap brass and finding it to be a good deal lighter (less metal in critical areas?) than other factory brands. You can probably google it. After seeing deformations, once, maybe twice, I would have called it a day. Speed (pressure) kills. Chris If DoubleTap's brass is light or thin, and they are loading it to max pressure, it would tend to implicate them instead of Glock. |
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Zhukov
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Posted: 11/14/2011 3:33:15 PM
Originally Posted By The_Reaper: The DoubleTap was loaded within SAAMI specs, so theoretically the gun should have handled it just fine. Theoretically. Theoretically it should have been within SAAMI specs, but who the heck knows? When you buy ammo that is supposed to be loaded super-hot you're obviously going to cause more wear and tear on the gun. Since you already had evidence that cases were close to rupturing, you were taking a big chance shooting more ammo in that barrel. I'm glad you're OK, but you made a bone-headed decision shooting anything through that barrel - much less a DoubleTap round. |
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Bassgasm
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Posted: 11/14/2011 3:33:29 PM
[Last Edit: 11/14/2011 3:36:21 PM by Bassgasm]
In on 1?
I'm glad you're OK, OP.
ETA: I've never posted this, nor have I ever proliferated the grenade joke. That said, I can't help it...
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DarkStar
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Posted: 11/14/2011 3:33:32 PM
Originally Posted By 3rdpig:
Originally Posted By DarkStar:
Originally Posted By PepPop:
Always thought a powerhouse like a 10mm would be better in a steel framed 1911 type pistol. Agreed, the 10mm belongs in a steel framed pistol... OP, I hope you do send in the 'remains' to Glock for inspection, I'd like to hear their thoughts on the feedramps... Like the early Delta's that cracked? Like the Witness that cracks? This is an ammo issue, not a gun issue. DT is producing loads that are not safe in early G20's. The early Delta's did suffer stress cracks but once the rail section above the slide stop was removed the cracking issue disappeared... I'd surmise it allowed the weapon the ability to flex, but either way, the DoubleTap is indeed nuclear grade boom... |
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