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MTNmyMag
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Posted: 11/13/2011 3:50:46 PM
[Last Edit: 12/4/2011 10:28:29 AM by MTNmyMag]

THE IMAGE ABOVE IS A PAID ADVERTISEMENT
Dropped doe #7 with 70grn TSX this AM. 225 yards at about a 23degree uphill angle. Bullet hit slightly behind the crease of the shoulder 2"inches below the spine, it traveled on it's upward angle and intersected the spine, severing it and her spinal cord. The deer was slightly angled away, so it hit the spine about mid point of the shoulder. She dropped straight down, her head smacked in between her shoulders as she went down. She was dead before she started to fall, never twitched, or even breathed after the shot.

This doe makes 7 1 shot kills with the 70 grn TSX.










Ok I finally got around to shooting a deer yesterday evening. 50 yards frontal shot bullet hit a little left of center chest, centered the heart. Deer ran 40 yards and fell over dead. I am unsure of penetration, did not recover bullet and did not find an exit. Trauma was severe, much bruising in both shoulders and the neck. Lot of splintered bone in the sternum and ribs. Heart and lungs were toast. I did not get a pic of the lungs, but I did recover and photograph the heart. Small doe, most of the deer here are very small this year due to drought. This one only weighed 69 lbs dressed, I think she was 1.5 years old, teeth wear said 3 yrs, but I am a tooth aging skeptic.
ETA this was a 70 grn TSX over 25 grns of BLC-2















11/20/11 Update

I shot 4 anterless this AM

Distance was about 135 yards 70 grn TSX full penetration and exit of the spine on one of them




Recovered this Bullet 28" into the deer. Retained 100% weight

11-27-11 update

Dropped another doe this AM. 175 yards I made a pretty poor shot, she was angled more than I thought. I hit 1 lung and the liver. She ran 125 yards, jumped a fence and died when she hit the ground. There was no blood trail I could find but she was laying in a large pool of blood. Photobucket is not happy with my bandwidth consumption and I am not really wanting to pay for Pro Service. 75 grn TSX fully exited the deer again.






AKFF
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Posted: 11/13/2011 3:54:20 PM
What bullet
Scorpionmain: I came into this world screaming and covered in someone else’s blood. I would have no problem with going out the same way.
WesDesRat
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Posted: 11/13/2011 3:55:41 PM

Originally Posted By AKFF:
What bullet

70gr TSX
<Scythe> I find it hard to insert the AFG into my rectum and pretend that it's Costa
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<Scythe> then I can have a little Costa in me too
MTNmyMag
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Posted: 11/13/2011 3:57:21 PM
Originally Posted By AKFF:
What bullet


I forgot that didnt I yes like WestDesRat said 70 grn TSX
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Posted: 11/13/2011 4:16:50 PM
That's beautiful. Congrats
magnumtc
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Posted: 11/13/2011 4:53:52 PM
It is amazing how well those Barnes TSX bullets perform. I would feel very confident using them on medium whitetails at less than 200 yards. Good kill.
ScopeScar
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Posted: 11/13/2011 4:56:10 PM
The deer's about as long as the rifle?? Hunh?
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Posted: 11/13/2011 5:00:07 PM
Damn OP, did you have to lick it dry before you shot it?
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MTNmyMag
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Posted: 11/13/2011 5:12:33 PM
Drought, it makes a small deer. The teeth wear showed 3 yrs of age like I said, i do not think it was older than 1 yr. But it did not have its milk tooth. So i do not know. Small deer, there will be many more this season.
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Posted: 11/13/2011 5:20:56 PM
The trouble with deer is that the energy required to reliably kill them makes a mess if the bullet hits somewhere other than crossing through the ribcage. But you have to take the shot you're given.

When I used to butcher, it wasn't unusual to get deer in that would finsh at 10-20 lbs. due to damage. Try to explain that to a kid that killed his first deer.

It also wasn't unusual to find bullet slugs in the grinder head during archery season.
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Posted: 11/13/2011 5:23:14 PM
We have rabbits bigger than your deer...
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Posted: 11/13/2011 5:25:35 PM
i am really wanting to use my ar to deer hunt with, im just to damn scared of injuring the big one, or any one for that matter.
MTNmyMag
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Posted: 11/13/2011 5:30:51 PM
Originally Posted By tbougie1:
We have rabbits bigger than your deer...



How about this one from last year? You have rabbits over 200 lbs?



MTNmyMag
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Posted: 11/13/2011 5:31:33 PM
Originally Posted By Plasteredtex:
i am really wanting to use my ar to deer hunt with, im just to damn scared of injuring the big one, or any one for that matter.


I have killed about 50 with 223, have not lost one yet.
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Posted: 11/13/2011 5:33:59 PM
Originally Posted By tbougie1:
We have rabbits bigger than your deer...


No shit, I guess not everything is 'bigger in Texas'. I'd like to see a .223 drop a REAL deer. Not saying it hasn't been done before, or couldn't, but it seems like every time I see a '223 vs deer' thread, its always these runty lil Texan things.
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Posted: 11/13/2011 5:34:11 PM
Originally Posted By MTNmyMag:
Originally Posted By Plasteredtex:
i am really wanting to use my ar to deer hunt with, im just to damn scared of injuring the big one, or any one for that matter.


I have killed about 50 with 223, have not lost one yet.


True, i guess i have actually killed more with a .22 than i have anything, but that was back in my younger days and they where all head shots

But i am guessing i need something other than a 55gr FMJ huh?
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Posted: 11/13/2011 5:34:47 PM
Originally Posted By MTNmyMag:
Originally Posted By tbougie1:
We have rabbits bigger than your deer...



How about this one from last year? You have rabbits over 200 lbs?

http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii70/Emptyinmymag/Halloween_bithday_davedeer078.jpg



NOW THATS A DEER! Also taken with .223? I take back my previous comments and may even take a dinner pic of the crow I'm eating.
MTNmyMag
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Posted: 11/13/2011 5:39:04 PM
[Last Edit: 11/13/2011 5:43:37 PM by MTNmyMag]
Originally Posted By RileyS:
Originally Posted By MTNmyMag:
Originally Posted By tbougie1:
We have rabbits bigger than your deer...



How about this one from last year? You have rabbits over 200 lbs?

http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii70/Emptyinmymag/Halloween_bithday_davedeer078.jpg



NOW THATS A DEER! Also taken with .223? I take back my previous comments and may even take a dinner pic of the crow I'm eating.

yes 69 grn SMK over 24.5 grns of Benchmark. I have killed bigger in this county, but with 30'06.

I am looking for the pic

ETA here it is



jeep450
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Posted: 11/13/2011 5:40:37 PM
Nice dog

FordGuy
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Posted: 11/13/2011 5:49:00 PM
OP, remind me - did you say the barnes 55 tsx were too light? thanks.
Sure, you can have them all. One round at a time.
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Posted: 11/13/2011 5:51:41 PM
With some shot reservation and select loads the 223 is an adequate deer killer. I'm hesistant to sell it off as a great deer caliber even if it's small deer. In TX often these deer are baited into shooting lanes. Much different strains of deer and different hunting strategies throughout the country.....generally it is prudent to go with a bigger round.
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Posted: 11/13/2011 6:01:41 PM
I have not tried the 55 TSX I am sure they would be fine, do not take a shot unless you are certain you will intersect a vital organ with your bullet and most any will do fine. I like heavier bullets, In deer VS 223 Season 1 I shot 3 deer with 55 grn Rem Corelokts and they did fine, I screwed up and gut shot one of them and had to trail it and shoot it again at 200 ish yards (if memory is correct) I shot it in the neck as it was moving away and the bullet fully penetrated the vertebrae. The problem with 223 and using lighter bullets, especially fragmenting ones like a V-Max is they do not give you an exit wound. The exit wound is generally what gives you a blood trail to follow. Typically deer I have hit with a behind the shoulder shot with such a bullet have not required tracking. That being said even a well placed shot from a magnum rifle will sometimes result in the deer traveling many hundreds of yards. In thick cover this can make recovery difficult. In season 1 I primarily used 69 grn SMKS and 75 grn TAP. I took only behind the shoulder shots and got exits every time, large exits in excess of 1" at that. Season2 I used only 69 grn SMKs and took a lot of high shoulder shots, all the deer dropped on the spot, but I did not get exits shooting through the spine. The bullets fully penetrated it, but did not exit the offside. This was a mute point as they all piled up DRT. I prefer to always get a full exit so we are exploring the 70 grn TSX this year. I have shot somewhere around 50 deer with 22-250 and 45-55 grn fragmenting bullets at hyper velocity, not one of those deer traveled more than a few steps and the insides of their chest cavity was liquified.
MTNmyMag
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Posted: 11/13/2011 6:06:30 PM
Originally Posted By Panta_Rei:
With some shot reservation and select loads the 223 is an adequate deer killer. I'm hesistant to sell it off as a great deer caliber even if it's small deer. In TX often these deer are baited into shooting lanes. Much different strains of deer and different hunting strategies throughout the country.....generally it is prudent to go with a bigger round.


I only hunt open farm fields of several hundred acres, I do not generally hunt over any bait other than what is planted in the field. A 223 will work 100% fine if you are not trying to shoot through a deers hind quarter into the vitals etc. A broad side shot with a good bullet out of a 223 will fully penetrate a deer as heavy as 235 lbs that is the heaviest I have seen killed with it. I am fairly certain it would do the same up to 300 lbs.
WesDesRat shot a Mule Deer in Ut this year with a 70 grn TSX and got 36" of penetration. YMMV
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Posted: 11/13/2011 6:11:00 PM
Originally Posted By DPeacher:
Damn OP, did you have to lick it dry before you shot it?
That is funny as hell

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Posted: 11/13/2011 6:54:50 PM
Originally Posted By riverghost:
Originally Posted By DPeacher:
Damn OP, did you have to lick it dry before you shot it?
That is funny as hell



I laughed like hell the first time I heard it too! The OP is on a mission, and I'm only joking around at his expense. I greatly appreciate the hard work he is doing now (and has done in the past) to demonstrate using the AR15 in .223 Rem with a proper bullet as a humane whitetail hunting tool. He has put up with a bunch of hecklers for doing this.
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BillyDoubleU
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Posted: 11/13/2011 7:01:29 PM
I've been following these the last few years. OP, do you notice less meat damage with .223 or certain .223 when compared to larger caliber bullets?
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Posted: 11/13/2011 7:09:31 PM
Do you think this is indicative of Barnes TSX, or the calibre itself? Would the results be the same from a shorter barrel?
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Posted: 11/13/2011 7:15:44 PM
Originally Posted By DPeacher:
Originally Posted By riverghost:
Originally Posted By DPeacher:
Damn OP, did you have to lick it dry before you shot it?
That is funny as hell



I laughed like hell the first time I heard it too! The OP is on a mission, and I'm only joking around at his expense. I greatly appreciate the hard work he is doing now (and has done in the past) to demonstrate using the AR15 in .223 Rem with a proper bullet as a humane whitetail hunting tool. He has put up with a bunch of hecklers for doing this.


I was a detractor until a old college friend, who's now a game warden here, proved me wrong.


And not on puny Texass deer either. we're talking NWTN monsters. Keep your shots inside 200 yards, put them where they need to be, and the deer drop dead every time.
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Posted: 11/13/2011 7:19:04 PM
Hey congratulations on your kill. When I 1st came on Arfcom I talked about hunting deer with my AR-15 and having killed 7 deer with it. I was called all kinds of names by posters saying I was unethical for using .223 for deer. I'm glad things have changed around here.
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Posted: 11/13/2011 7:23:58 PM

Originally Posted By MTNmyMag:
Originally Posted By Plasteredtex:
i am really wanting to use my ar to deer hunt with, im just to !@#$%^&* scared of injuring the big one, or any one for that matter.


I have killed about 50 with 223, have not lost one yet.

My oldest son (9) got this little doe a couple weeks ago. He used an AR I built for him a couple years ago (Bushmaster super-light barrel, Essential Arms upper and lower, my own trigger job on it that eliminates most all the creep and over-travel, and a Bushnell 3-9X40 scope). He shot it with 55 grain Remington soft-point ammo that I'd sighted in at 100 yards.

He hit high behind the shoulder, but it took out the top lobes of both lungs and punched a 2" hole in its liver. It only went about 30 yards and collapsed, which was fortunate, because it left no blood trail at all. However, when we gutted it, the area above its diaphragm was completely full of blood. The bullet broke a couple ribs going through, but really didn't have much in the way of bone or meat to plow through. He shot it while standing, but resting the rifle on a metal fence. We stepped off the distance and it was right at 190 yards. I doubt I could have made that shot at 9, but I also hadn't been through 2 appleseed events either.



Here's the one he got a couple years ago when he was 7.



I have no problem believing that with a good shot even a large whitetail will go down quickly after taking a hit from .223. Will you have the margin of error you have with .308 or .30/06? Doubt it. Even with a bad shot you can do so much damage with those rounds it will likely kill the deer. But, if you take a *good* shot with .223 and do your part to put it where it needs to be, it's obvious the round will do its part and shred the parts that need shredding.
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Posted: 11/13/2011 7:28:13 PM
I killed my first AR deer yesterday. The handloaded 55gr Barnes TSX completely passed through with a nickle sized exit wound. Deer went 20 yards, bounced off a cedar tree and was dead. While it didn't do the damage that one of my bigger rifles does it worked great.
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Posted: 11/13/2011 7:30:29 PM
Arent those small?

Is that the normal size for does in that area?
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Posted: 11/13/2011 7:33:37 PM
It just goes to show its all about placement of the bullet.

I shot a medium sized doe with a .308 winchester soft point 168gns.

Tiny entry hole, about quarter sized exit hole. Entire chest cavity was toast.

Lungs, heart all hamburgerized.

But the damn thing still ran about 35 yards before it keeled over.

HUGE blood trail, like it was sprinkler.

The snow was just red about a 3 foot wide trail to the deer where it stopped about 10 feet from the deer when she bled out.
krpind
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Posted: 11/13/2011 7:38:41 PM
Good job....as always.

ARFCOM.....Time well wasted.

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Posted: 11/13/2011 7:38:45 PM
didn't read the whole post. Do you normally skin large rabbits with a chainsaw?
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Posted: 11/13/2011 7:59:56 PM
Originally Posted By m23shooter:
It just goes to show its all about placement of the bullet.

I shot a medium sized doe with a .308 winchester soft point 168gns.

Tiny entry hole, about quarter sized exit hole. Entire chest cavity was toast.

Lungs, heart all hamburgerized.

But the damn thing still ran about 35 yards before it keeled over.

HUGE blood trail, like it was sprinkler.

The snow was just red about a 3 foot wide trail to the deer where it stopped about 10 feet from the deer when she bled out.




True. You never know how a deer will react even with a well placed shot. I shot a big 8 pointer several years ago with a 7mm Rem mag and a 150gr Nosler Ballistic tip. Hit him right behind the shoulder broadside as he was walking about 175 yards away. I heard the bullet hit with a thwack! He took off on a full run and ran approximately 150 yards before going down. Figure a 7mm entrance hole and a 3 inch exit hole through both lungs! Amazing that he ran that far with that kind of wound.
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Posted: 11/13/2011 8:04:07 PM
Nice kill! I never understood why they require a larger bullet here.
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Posted: 11/13/2011 8:07:21 PM

Originally Posted By m23shooter:
Arent those small?

Is that the normal size for does in that area?

Nope, they're first-year deer, so basically this past year's fawns. They were/are tasty, though. We just had some in stew tonight. Good stuff.
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Posted: 11/13/2011 8:10:16 PM
Originally Posted By tnwalker10:
The trouble with deer is that the energy required to reliably kill them makes a mess if the bullet hits somewhere other than crossing through the ribcage. But you have to take the shot you're given.

When I used to butcher, it wasn't unusual to get deer in that would finsh at 10-20 lbs. due to damage. Try to explain that to a kid that killed his first deer.

It also wasn't unusual to find bullet slugs in the grinder head during archery season.


A few years back my dad got a buck during bow season. Found, two, count it... TWO rifle rounds in the thing.

I would have thought they would have deteriorated more over time(based on nothing but wild assumptions) but there they were, perfectly intact. One in the hip area and the other in the chest, in front of any vitals. He said the deer was walking through the field with quite a limp. Found out why after we skinned it.
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Posted: 11/13/2011 8:10:50 PM
Originally Posted By m23shooter:
It just goes to show its all about placement of the bullet.

I shot a medium sized doe with a .308 winchester soft point 168gns.

Tiny entry hole, about quarter sized exit hole. Entire chest cavity was toast.

Lungs, heart all hamburgerized.

But the damn thing still ran about 35 yards before it keeled over.

HUGE blood trail, like it was sprinkler.

The snow was just red about a 3 foot wide trail to the deer where it stopped about 10 feet from the deer when she bled out.


I shot a good sized black tail this year, using a .308 with a 165 gr. BTSP. Same size entrance and exit wound, and the chest cavity was full of jello. Dropped on the spot, didn't so much as twitch.

Of course, I'm sure it helped that I was only 30 yards away, and he had just turned to look at me when I fired. I pretty much caught him by surprise.

Funny thing was that I had been hunting with my AR all season prior to this, and only had the .308 due to the off-chance of seeing a bear. I have no doubt whatsoever that the .223 would have performed equally well under the circumstances.
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Posted: 11/13/2011 8:12:33 PM
Not sure where your at, but I'm in Kimble county and were seeing the same small deer.
My cousin Jacob killed his first yesterday, a small spike buck.
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Posted: 11/13/2011 8:13:13 PM
Originally Posted By rob99rt:

Originally Posted By MTNmyMag:
Originally Posted By Plasteredtex:
i am really wanting to use my ar to deer hunt with, im just to !@#$%^&* scared of injuring the big one, or any one for that matter.


I have killed about 50 with 223, have not lost one yet.

My oldest son (9) got this little doe a couple weeks ago. He used an AR I built for him a couple years ago (Bushmaster super-light barrel, Essential Arms upper and lower, my own trigger job on it that eliminates most all the creep and over-travel, and a Bushnell 3-9X40 scope). He shot it with 55 grain Remington soft-point ammo that I'd sighted in at 100 yards.

He hit high behind the shoulder, but it took out the top lobes of both lungs and punched a 2" hole in its liver. It only went about 30 yards and collapsed, which was fortunate, because it left no blood trail at all. However, when we gutted it, the area above its diaphragm was completely full of blood. The bullet broke a couple ribs going through, but really didn't have much in the way of bone or meat to plow through. He shot it while standing, but resting the rifle on a metal fence. We stepped off the distance and it was right at 190 yards. I doubt I could have made that shot at 9, but I also hadn't been through 2 appleseed events either.

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r235/rob99rt/deer%202011/2011-10-29133620.jpg

Here's the one he got a couple years ago when he was 7.

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r235/rob99rt/deer/IMG_4502.jpg

I have no problem believing that with a good shot even a large whitetail will go down quickly after taking a hit from .223. Will you have the margin of error you have with .308 or .30/06? Doubt it. Even with a bad shot you can do so much damage with those rounds it will likely kill the deer. But, if you take a *good* shot with .223 and do your part to put it where it needs to be, it's obvious the round will do its part and shred the parts that need shredding.


Looks more like a dog than a deer

Bet that was some damn tasty venison though. Old neighbor of ours took a couple yearlings because he was trying to thin the doe population out on his ranch. He sent us some of the meat. I was surprised at the difference in taste between a very young deer and the old doe I had shot.
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Posted: 11/13/2011 8:15:42 PM
Originally Posted By RIA45ACP:
Not sure where your at, but I'm in Kimble county and were seeing the same small deer.
My cousin Jacob killed his first yesterday, a small spike buck.


I am in the NorthWest Panhandle, our deer normally tend much larger than South Texas or the Hill Country, the drought has had an impact though.
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Posted: 11/13/2011 8:20:54 PM
Originally Posted By rob99rt:

Originally Posted By MTNmyMag:
Originally Posted By Plasteredtex:
i am really wanting to use my ar to deer hunt with, im just to !@#$%^&* scared of injuring the big one, or any one for that matter.


I have killed about 50 with 223, have not lost one yet.

My oldest son (9) got this little doe a couple weeks ago. He used an AR I built for him a couple years ago (Bushmaster super-light barrel, Essential Arms upper and lower, my own trigger job on it that eliminates most all the creep and over-travel, and a Bushnell 3-9X40 scope). He shot it with 55 grain Remington soft-point ammo that I'd sighted in at 100 yards.

He hit high behind the shoulder, but it took out the top lobes of both lungs and punched a 2" hole in its liver. It only went about 30 yards and collapsed, which was fortunate, because it left no blood trail at all. However, when we gutted it, the area above its diaphragm was completely full of blood. The bullet broke a couple ribs going through, but really didn't have much in the way of bone or meat to plow through. He shot it while standing, but resting the rifle on a metal fence. We stepped off the distance and it was right at 190 yards. I doubt I could have made that shot at 9, but I also hadn't been through 2 appleseed events either.

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r235/rob99rt/deer%202011/2011-10-29133620.jpg

Here's the one he got a couple years ago when he was 7.

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r235/rob99rt/deer/IMG_4502.jpg

I have no problem believing that with a good shot even a large whitetail will go down quickly after taking a hit from .223. Will you have the margin of error you have with .308 or .30/06? Doubt it. Even with a bad shot you can do so much damage with those rounds it will likely kill the deer. But, if you take a *good* shot with .223 and do your part to put it where it needs to be, it's obvious the round will do its part and shred the parts that need shredding.

Love to see these pics of your kid! I am not sure what you mean by margin of error. If you mean killing them with a shot in the guts, I do not believe you have a better chance of killing in short order shot in the guts with a 300 win mag. If you put a hole through something vital, liver, kidneys, major artery etc they will die quickly, if you do not they will die days later, same with either round. If you mean on an angled shot shooting through bone etc then maybe.
shack357
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Posted: 11/13/2011 8:21:35 PM
Originally Posted By Plasteredtex:
i am really wanting to use my ar to deer hunt with, im just to damn scared of injuring the big one, or any one for that matter.


I'm not a fan of .223 for deer, but threads like this definitely show the round will do it. If .223 works on 200 pound enemy combatants it will work on deer if the hole goes in the right place. If you want to use it, get a good zero, pick your shot, go home and eat. As for me, my ambition is to shoot a deer with my M1-sadly it's only legal in IA 3-4 hours south of me. Not sure if I want to drive that far when I can use a handgun on my father in law's farm 20 minutes from my house.
"The hawk does not fear you, boy, and the hawk never will. The hawk is God's gunslinger." -Stephen King
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Posted: 11/13/2011 8:22:24 PM
Originally Posted By Searcherfortruth:
Hey congratulations on your kill. When I 1st came on Arfcom I talked about hunting deer with my AR-15 and having killed 7 deer with it. I was called all kinds of names by posters saying I was unethical for using .223 for deer. I'm glad things have changed around here.


The ignorance in threads like yours is why I started doing this. Not that it helps much, people see what that want.
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Posted: 11/13/2011 8:23:35 PM
Originally Posted By the_great_mantis:
Do you think this is indicative of Barnes TSX, or the calibre itself? Would the results be the same from a shorter barrel?


Shot was 50 yards, barrel length would not have changed anything
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Posted: 11/13/2011 8:25:33 PM
Originally Posted By BillyDoubleU:
I've been following these the last few years. OP, do you notice less meat damage with .223 or certain .223 when compared to larger caliber bullets?


To much variance to say anything concrete, best bet to not damaging meat is to shoot them broadside through the ribs. HV rounds tend to bruise meat more than lower velocity rounds. 45 acp does not seem to do a lot of meat bruising.
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Posted: 11/13/2011 8:30:04 PM
[Last Edit: 11/27/2011 12:59:39 PM by MTNmyMag]
Random photos from hunting


















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ELECTRICIAN EXTRAORDINAIRE
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Posted: 11/13/2011 8:43:08 PM
I started bow hunting a few years ago. After seeing the effects an arrow has on even large deer, i have zero doubts about.223.
Keep up the good work, shut the mouths of the haters with the truth.
"Ultimately, a civilized society must disarm its citizenry if it is to have a modicum of domestic tranquility of the kind enjoyed by sister democracies such as Canada and Britain."

Charles Krauthammer
The Washington Post, April 5th, 1
Branspop
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Posted: 11/13/2011 9:05:47 PM
Originally Posted By MTNmyMag:
Originally Posted By tbougie1:
We have rabbits bigger than your deer...


You have rabbits over 200 lbs?




Sorry, couldn't resist
There is no charge for awesomeness... or attractiveness.

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