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In other news, Dick Swan has now copyrighted the number 6 and will be suing the fuck out of SAAMI.
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: That's exactly what they do. They don't put a 308 with a 175 SMK or even a 168 SMK on the graph up against a 123 SMK Grendel. Wrong-o. Get your B.C.s and Velocities right before you build a new graph. There are million graphs & charts that show the same thing. |
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That's exactly what they do. They don't put a 308 with a 175 SMK or even a 168 SMK on the graph up against a 123 SMK Grendel. Wrong-o. Get your B.C.s and Velocities right before you build a new graph. There are million graphs & charts that show the same thing. Of that we can be sure of.... |
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It would still be more attractive to take 6.5 or 6.8 over it because ammo would weigh less, the weapon would weigh less, the recoil would be less and the muzzle report would be less. More attractive to who? Ammo weight, weapon weight, and .308-or-less recoil are non-issues to the vast majority of us. I'm thinking in terms of military applications, for say snipers and designated marksmen. I can certainly see the point there - but, again, you're a minority in terms of the potential market for this thing. My next AR may be a 6.5G. I just think AA hamstrung the cartridge in a way that will take decades to overcome. I hope I'm wrong. Fortunately, I think you are.;). When this cheap ammo hits the market I think popularity of the grendel will skyrocket. Relatively few people will know or care about the trademark issues. |
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Quoted: Quoted: That's exactly what they do. They don't put a 308 with a 175 SMK or even a 168 SMK on the graph up against a 123 SMK Grendel. Wrong-o. This. What they do is give the grendel an insane MV so naive fanboys who have no clue or experience can smugly show graphs of grendel dominance. 2800 fps with a 140 grain bullet.......and it barely edged out the 308 competitor. |
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: That's exactly what they do. They don't put a 308 with a 175 SMK or even a 168 SMK on the graph up against a 123 SMK Grendel. Wrong-o. This. What they do is give the grendel an insane MV so naive fanboys who have no clue or experience can smugly show graphs of grendel dominance. 2800 fps with a 140 grain bullet.......and it barely edged out the 308 competitor. fanboy! LOL! I'd take a 6.8 SPR over a .308 SPR any day of the week as well. Both cartridges shoot flatter at longer distances. |
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I'd rather have a .22lr SPR. That shoots flatter than any of them. Less recoil, too.
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Quoted: I'd rather have a .22lr SPR. That shoots flatter than any of them. Less recoil, too. We've already had an expert in here say that 6.5 Grendel is better after 600 meters |
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I'd rather have a .22lr SPR. That shoots flatter than any of them. Less recoil, too. We've already had an expert in here say that 6.5 Grendel is better after 600 meters Compared to 5.56, it kicks it's ass.... |
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I'd rather have a .22lr SPR. That shoots flatter than any of them. Less recoil, too. We've already had an expert in here say that 6.5 Grendel is better after 600 meters No offense to anyone intended, but treating "experts" as Factual Gods is a mistake. Experts are wrong all the time. They can be handy when trying to make sense of things you are not familiar with... But expert does not equal always correct. Appeal to authority is not an argument, it's what people who cannot form an argument do. On the subject at hand, I do not know enough about this particular matter to feel qualified to comment. I will say that, until 6.5 becomes far more common, it is not even worth consideration for my uses. Logistics trumps all. TR85. |
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Lots of folks that love the Grendel love it on paper. I doubt most of them send rounds down range to 1000 yards + on any sort of regular basis. I shoot at NRA Whittington in matches every month from March to September and get a fair bit of trigger time out to 1000 yards and beyond.
I've seen some 6.5mm cartridges do some amazing things at 800 to 1000 yards in winds you wouldn't believe. But they weren't Grendels. They were 260 REM, 6.5x47 Lapua, and 6.5-284. And yes, those little 6.5 bullets are something in the wind, especially compared to 308. But the Grendel can't launch 142 SMKs or 139 Scenars with enough velocity to do amazing things at 1000 yards. Not enough powder capacity. What the Grendel will do is outperform virtually any other cartridge you can run through a standard-lower AR in the wind, at distance. And that's pretty clear. -David Edgewood, NM |
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Isn't Les Baer's .264 LBC virtually the same thing except for some tiny, inconsequential, dimensional differences, and fully compatable with the 6.5 Grendel?
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Isn't Les Baer's .264 LBC virtually the same thing except for some tiny, inconsequential, dimensional differences, and fully compatable with the 6.5 Grendel? The .264 LBC cartridge is a 6.5mm Grendel cartridge with a different headstamp.... |
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What the Grendel will do is outperform virtually any other cartridge you can run through a standard-lower AR in the wind, at distance. And that's pretty clear. -David Edgewood, NM For its size, the 6.5mm Grendel performs surprisingly well. |
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Isn't Les Baer's .264 LBC virtually the same thing except for some tiny, inconsequential, dimensional differences, and fully compatable with the 6.5 Grendel? Only a slight difference in the throat angles. Ammo is identical. The LBC is said to be a little pickier about the bullet. |
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Isn't Les Baer's .264 LBC virtually the same thing except for some tiny, inconsequential, dimensional differences, and fully compatable with the 6.5 Grendel? Only a slight difference in the throat angles. Ammo is identical. The LBC is said to be a little pickier about the bullet. I think that the compound throat angle is part of the reason Bill Alexander was such a stickler about the cartridge. I think that he considers that throat critical to accuracy and usefulness with different bullet weights. Les Baer decided he liked the cartridge, but not being told how to chamber barrels. I read a bunch about the Grendel a few years ago, but never got around to buying one. i did talk several times with the folks at Alexander Arms; they seemed like good people. |
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Here are some pics for people unfamiliar with it Left to Right 5.8x42mm Chinese, 5.45x39mm, 7.62x39mm, 5.56x45mm, 6.5mm Grendel and sectioned Grendel with 123 grain Scenar http://i583.photobucket.com/albums/ss273/Gunwritr/B-2.jpg The most accurate factory ammunition I have tested is Hornady's 123 grain AMAX load http://i583.photobucket.com/albums/ss273/Gunwritr/A.jpg 125 grain AP at 100 yards from 20 inch GDMR http://i583.photobucket.com/albums/ss273/Gunwritr/AA125grainAP65x38mmGrendelthroughLevelIVhardplate100yards.jpg Various factory loads http://i583.photobucket.com/albums/ss273/Gunwritr/04-1.jpg 120 grain Wolf MPT exit wound on coyote at 90 yards http://i583.photobucket.com/albums/ss273/Gunwritr/E.jpg Is the 120 grain MPT Wolf suitable hunting der-sized animals or hogs? |
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So who makes the best 20" AR barrels for the 6.5G? There are several really good ones out there. I've been very happy with my Satern so far. I believe you can get a Lohar Walther from Alexander Arms. |
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http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h302/jtdavis00/65gren1000yds5inch.jpg This was a my Grendel at 1000. I have shot many 6, 7 & 8" groups as well. 123 smks That's a nice group. Is it using an AR or a bolt gun? |
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So who makes the best 20" AR barrels for the 6.5G? There are several really good ones out there. I've been very happy with my Satern so far. I believe you can get a Lohar Walther from Alexander Arms. Shilen, right down the road from me, makes the upgrade from the standard barrel. the Saterns are quite a price jump. |
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So who makes the best 20" AR barrels for the 6.5G? I think I am making the jump to 6.5G for deer next season. I do not care if the 308 is a better long range round or not. 308 wont fit in my AR15 and the 6.5G is the best long range cartridge that will fit mag length in an AR15. You guys are complaining about comparing the 6.5 to the 308 and comparing the 6.5 VLDs to 7.62 Nato, can the 30 cals with better BCs be loaded to fit in the magazine of an Ar10? I do not know, shooting beyond 500 yards has never been something I got into so I am pretty ignorant on this deal. |
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So who makes the best 20" AR barrels for the 6.5G? There are several really good ones out there. I've been very happy with my Satern so far. I believe you can get a Lohar Walther from Alexander Arms. Shilen, right down the road from me, makes the upgrade from the standard barrel. the Saterns are quite a price jump. They're also out of production for the moment, since their contract expired and wasn't renewed. I don't know the details behind the scenes, so I won't speculate. If you're getting a Grendel-chambered Satern now (and they are out there), it's going to be NOS. My 20" Satern shoots about 1.5" @100yds with the Wolf MPT. That's not the best ammo, though, so I'd expect I can tighten that up once I start handloading. Silly me, I ordered everything I needed except a shellholder. A silly $3 part. How embarassing. Once that comes in the mail next week, I'll be rolling my own from Wolf (PPU) brass. |
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So who makes the best 20" AR barrels for the 6.5G? I think I am making the jump to 6.5G for deer next season. I do not care if the 308 is a better long range round or not. 308 wont fit in my AR15 and the 6.5G is the best long range cartridge that will fit mag length in an AR15. You guys are complaining about comparing the 6.5 to the 308 and comparing the 6.5 VLDs to 7.62 Nato, can the 30 cals with better BCs be loaded to fit in the magazine of an Ar10? I do not know, shooting beyond 500 yards has never been something I got into so I am pretty ignorant on this deal. Generally, if you want a dedicated long range AR10, you build a 6.5Creedmoor. But mag length is 2.845" (as opposed to the AR15 at 2.255") and an AR10 can feed 168SMK loads from the magazine. The AR15 magazine length tops out at the 77SMKs, whereas the Grendel gets up up to 145ish, though the 123s offer the best BC. I wouldn't call a .308 168SMK very low drag, but for the cartridge it's about as good as you can get. |
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http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h302/jtdavis00/65gren1000yds5inch.jpg This was a my Grendel at 1000. I have shot many 6, 7 & 8" groups as well. 123 smks That's a nice group. Is it using an AR or a bolt gun? Thanks. AR. My build. RRA lower Giessele High speed trigger CTR stock Mega billet side charging upper Bolt handle and carrier mods made by me Upper milled to accept Magpul B.A.D. lever Satern 20" medium profile barrel, cut to 19.5" & re-threaded to 5/8"x24 GunWerks Brake JP handguard Harris Bipod w/ Larue QD Zeiss Conquest 4.5x14x50 Larue LT158 mount w/ VFZ mount |
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Quoted: http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h302/jtdavis00/65gren1000yds5inch.jpg This was a my Grendel at 1000. I have shot many 6, 7 & 8" groups as well. 123 smks Damn, half a minute at 1000 yards is pretty DAMN good. |
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Texas A&M Marine:
What kinda velocity are you getting with that load through your rifle? And FYI, that 1000 yard group of yours is sub-half MOA. One MOA at 1000 yards is about 10.4". Must have been some nice conditions.... -David Edgewood, NM |
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Here are some pics for people unfamiliar with it Left to Right 5.8x42mm Chinese, 5.45x39mm, 7.62x39mm, 5.56x45mm, 6.5mm Grendel and sectioned Grendel with 123 grain Scenar http://i583.photobucket.com/albums/ss273/Gunwritr/B-2.jpg The most accurate factory ammunition I have tested is Hornady's 123 grain AMAX load http://i583.photobucket.com/albums/ss273/Gunwritr/A.jpg 125 grain AP at 100 yards from 20 inch GDMR http://i583.photobucket.com/albums/ss273/Gunwritr/AA125grainAP65x38mmGrendelthroughLevelIVhardplate100yards.jpg Various factory loads http://i583.photobucket.com/albums/ss273/Gunwritr/04-1.jpg 120 grain Wolf MPT exit wound on coyote at 90 yards http://i583.photobucket.com/albums/ss273/Gunwritr/E.jpg Is the 120 grain MPT Wolf suitable hunting der-sized animals or hogs? Yes, it is a great load especially for the money. |
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Texas A&M Marine: What kinda velocity are you getting with that load through your rifle? And FYI, that 1000 yard group of yours is sub-half MOA. One MOA at 1000 yards is about 10.4". Must have been some nice conditions.... -David Edgewood, NM These loads were averaging 2550 but my brass (Laupa) was taking a beating. I've since backed them off a bit to 2515. Still get the same accuracy though. Yea, that pic was generated using an android app called Target Calculator. I ignore the MOA figures. Conditions were about perfect that day. |
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Texas A&M Marine: What kinda velocity are you getting with that load through your rifle? And FYI, that 1000 yard group of yours is sub-half MOA. One MOA at 1000 yards is about 10.4". Must have been some nice conditions.... -David Edgewood, NM These loads were averaging 2550 but my brass (Laupa) was taking a beating. I've since backed them off a bit to 2515. Still get the same accuracy though. Yea, that pic was generated using an android app called Target Calculator. I ignore the MOA figures. Conditions were about perfect that day. Thanks for the real-world velocities. Low to mid 2500s does make sense. I was pretty sure whoever posted built those 2800 fps graphs with a Grendel were smoking crack. I wonder if ArmyInfantryVet will hop back in and withdraw his 2800 fps Grendel compared with 308 ballistics tables & statements? Need to download that Android app. Looks handy. -David Edgewood, NM |
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Texas A&M Marine: What kinda velocity are you getting with that load through your rifle? And FYI, that 1000 yard group of yours is sub-half MOA. One MOA at 1000 yards is about 10.4". Must have been some nice conditions.... -David Edgewood, NM These loads were averaging 2550 but my brass (Laupa) was taking a beating. I've since backed them off a bit to 2515. Still get the same accuracy though. Yea, that pic was generated using an android app called Target Calculator. I ignore the MOA figures. Conditions were about perfect that day. Thanks for the real-world velocities. Low to mid 2500s does make sense. I was pretty sure whoever posted built those 2800 fps graphs with a Grendel were smoking crack. I wonder if ArmyInfantryVet will hop back in and withdraw his 2800 fps Grendel compared with 308 ballistics tables & statements? Need to download that Android app. Looks handy. -David Edgewood, NM Whoa, there's an Android app I have missed? |
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Quoted: Thanks for the real-world velocities. Low to mid 2500s does make sense. I was pretty sure whoever posted built those 2800 fps graphs with a Grendel were smoking crack. I wonder if ArmyInfantryVet will hop back in and withdraw his 2800 fps Grendel compared with 308 ballistics tables & statements? Need to download that Android app. Looks handy. -David Edgewood, NM Yes, if your brass is showing pressure signs, you are already way over the pressure max in an AR. While that is fine for those who understand they will need to replace their bolt sooner, publishing those velocities to advocate for the Grendel is just dishonest (I'm referring to the Shooting Times article). That's like shooting proof loads in an AR to make the argument that 5.56 gives the 22-250 a run for its money. The Grendel has enough good things going for it that such outlandish claims are completely unnecessary. |
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Thanks for the real-world velocities. Low to mid 2500s does make sense. I was pretty sure whoever posted built those 2800 fps graphs with a Grendel were smoking crack. I wonder if ArmyInfantryVet will hop back in and withdraw his 2800 fps Grendel compared with 308 ballistics tables & statements? Need to download that Android app. Looks handy. -David Edgewood, NM Yes, if your brass is showing pressure signs, you are already way over the pressure max in an AR. While that is fine for those who understand they will need to replace their bolt sooner, publishing those velocities to advocate for the Grendel is just dishonest (I'm referring to the Shooting Times article). That's like shooting proof loads in an AR to make the argument that 5.56 gives the 22-250 a run for its money. The Grendel has enough good things going for it that such outlandish claims are completely unnecessary. Here are some real world velocity readings for FACTORY 6.5mm Grendel loads from both 20 and 16 inch barrels Alexander Arms 20 inch GDMR 6.5mm Grendel Alexander Arms Berger 100 grain OTM 2,847 Alexander Arms Barnes 120 grain TSX 2,551 Alexander Arms Nosler 120 grain BT 2,600 Wolf 120 grain MPT 2,541 Alexander Arms 123 grain Lapua Scenar 2,627 Hornady 123 grain A-MAX 2,582 Alexander Arms 16 inch Mid-Length carbine 6.5mm Grendel Alexander Arms Berger 100 grain OTM 2,723 Alexander Arms 120grain Nosler BT 2,535 Wolf 120 grain MPT 2,445 Alexander Arms 123 grain Lapua Scenar 2,523 Hornady 123 grain A-MAX 2,463 Notes: Velocities are averages of five shots measured on an Oehler 35P chronograph 12 feet from the muzzle at an ambient temperature of 90 degrees F at 1030 feet above Sea Level. |
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yeap 123 grn 6.5s at the same velocity as 168-175 grn smks in a .308.
with a higher bc! |
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Velocity comparison of .308 Win factory loads
Fired from a 26 inch Sako TRG-22 Black Hills 175 grain Match 2603 fps PMC 168 grain Match 2649 fps Sellier & Bellot 168 grain Match 2,574 fps Winchester 168 grain Match 2600 fps I measured these velocities from my personal Sako TRG-22 with an Oehler 35P chronograph. Let’s compare the Black Hills .308 Win 175 grain Match load fired from a 26 inch barrel to an Alexander Arms 6.5mm Grendel 123 grain Match load fired from a 20 inch barrel. The Black Hills load is topped with a 175 grain Sierra MatchKing. This has a published BC of .505 @ 2,800 fps and above and .496 from 2,800 fps to 1,800 fps. So at .308 Win velocities we’ll go with .496. The Alexander Arms load is topped with a 123 grain Lapua Scenar. Lapua has just completed extensive ballistic testing of their projectiles using radar and has corrected this projectile’s BC to .527 which is known to be very accurate. Velocity of Alexander Arms 123 grain Scenar load from my 20 inch GDMR averages 2,627 fps. Both the .308 Win and 6.5mm Grendel loads were measured using an Oehler 35P chronograph out of my personal firearms. Velocities have been checked and rechecked over a period of years, I know they are accurate. Using Berger Bullets software .308 Win 175 grain MatchKing at 2,603 fps VS 6.5mm Grendel 123 grain Scenar at 2,627 fps Velocity comparison .308 Win VS 6.5mm Grendel Range Velocity Muzzle 2,603 fps VS 2,627 fps 100- 2424 fps VS 2458 fps 300- 2088 fps VS 2138 fps 600- 1641 fps VS 1708 fps 800- 1390 fps VS 1460 fps 1000- 1191 fps VS 1256 fps So the 6.5mm Grendel has a higher initial velocity and retains more velocity out past 1,000 yards. Energy Comparison .308 Win VS 6.5mm Grendel Range Energy Muzzle 2633 ft-lbs VS 1885 ft-lbs 100 2284 ft-lbs VS 1649 ft-lbs 300 1695 ft-lbs VS 1249 ft-lbs 600 1046 ft-lbs VS 797 ft-lbs 800 750 ft-lbs VS 582 ft-lbs 1000 551 ft-lbs VS 431 ft-lbs The .308 Win plainly has more energy from the muzzle all the way out. However the Grendel does a surprising job of closing the gap at distance. Drop Comparison .308 Win VS 6.5mm Grendel Range Drop with 100 yard Zero 100 0 inches VS 0 inches 300 -15.7 inches VS -15.1 inches 600 -103 inches VS -98.4 inches 800 -223 inches VS -211 inches 1000 -416 inches VS -389 inches Regarding bullet drop, the Grendel has a slight advantage but the two are really neck and neck. Drift Comparison .308 Win VS 6.5mm Grendel Drift in 10mph Full Value Wind Range Drift 100 -.7 inch VS -.6 inch 300 -7.1 inches VS -6.5 inches 600 -31.9 inches VS -29 inches 800 -61.4 inches VS -55.9 inches 1000 -103 inches VS -93.9 inches When it comes to wind drift the 6.5mm Grendel slightly edges this .308 Win load out. Now, keep in mind this is just a comparison between two factory loads. However the .308 Win was fired from a 26 inch barrel and is Black Hills version of the US military M118 LR sniper load. The 6.5mm Grendel load is the best exterior ballistic wise from Alexander Arms, but fired from a 20 inch barrel. Numbers were crunched using real world data. Can I build a .308 handload to beat that particular 6.5mm Grendel factory load? Without a doubt. But this is a comparison between two of the most popular factory loads. |
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Gunwritr (and others of course): I just read this article earlier today on the 7.62x40 that Bill Wilson is pushing. It sounds interdasting as well. .223 casings necked up to take .308 rounds, how simple is that?
http://www.shootingillustrated.com/index.php/17247/7-62x40-wt/ It seems like we've reached a point where a concept has reached maturity (bigger boolits out of the AR15 platform), and now the level of development of the concept is just racing along at breakneck speed, with new calibers being developed and introduced at a rate the industry hasn't seen before. Were are in the midst of record breaking spurt of caliber expansion. Where do you see this going? Here's a couple of thoughts: First, there won't be another caliber as plentiful and affordable as 5.56 until the military at large goes to something else. There is no indication that is going to happen any time soon at all. Once the military DOES go to something else, 5.56 will continue to be the most plentiful and affordable caliber for a long time thereafter anyway, simply because of the sheer numbers of rifles already chambered in that cartridge. Second, I see two seperate and mutually exclusive groups of bigger boolits calibers emerging. In order to survive these calibers must be demonstrably better at what they do than 5.56 is. One is the short barreled/short range/suppressed category, which includes the quiet but heavy-bullet-weight calibers such as 6.8spc and .300 Blackout. The other is the long range category, guys who want to push 800 or more yards out of an AR-15. 6.5 Grendel goes here, and maybe the .30 Remington AR if someone will stuff a decent bullet in the casing (Hornady A-max?). So a split develops between these two categories––guys who want alot of stopping power at short range or a very quiet suppressed gun go in one direction, and guy who want to knock varmints down from very far away go in another direction. This is already happening, so its not a big prediction or anything. To people paying attention to all this the split is obvious. But if we have five calibers to choose from in each category, with supporters and detractors of each among the "early adopters", what is it going to take to have one rise to prominence? Or will that even happen? Is the future of AR15 calibers nothing more than a choaotic mess of people arguing that 6mm Xtreme is superior to 6.4 Costa Spec II? |
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Quoted: *snip* Thanks for proving me right. Grendel can be a better long range round than .308 |
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Here is some more info to consider.
Here is a comparison between .308 Win from a 16 inch carbine VS 6.5mm Grendel from a 16 inch carbine Here are velocities I measured using an Oehler 35P: From a DSA 16 inch FAL .308 Win Black Hills 175 grain Match ran 2,378 fps Black Hills 150 grain BT ran 2,643 fps Sellier&Bellot 168 grain Match ran 2,419 fps Hornady 110 grain TAP ran 2,894 fps Hornady 155 grain TAP ran 2,547 fps Hornady 150 grain Spire Point ran 2,635 fps Santa Barbara 146 grain ball ran 2,611 fps From a Springfield Armory SOCOM M1A .308 Win with 16 inch barrel Hornady 110 grain TAP 2,935 fps Hornady 155 grain TAP 2,589 fps Hornady 168 grain TAP 2,482 fps Black Hills 150 grain BT 2,659 fps Now here are some velocities I chrono'd from a 16 inch 6.5mm Grendel carbine Alexander Arms 100 grain Berger OTM 2,723 fps Alexander Arms 123 grain Barnes TSX 2,494 fps Alexander Arms 120 grain Nosler BT 2,535 fps Wolf 120 grain MPT 2,445 fps Alexander Arms 123 grain Lapua Scenar 2,523 fps Hornady 123 grain A-MAX 2,463 fps Lets compare apples to apples with factory loads, remember these are all from a 16 inch barrel. .308 Win 110 grain Hornady TAP (.290 BC) at 2,935 fps drops 107 inches (4.96 Mils)and drifts 54 inches (2.5 Mils) in a 10mph wind at 600 yards. This load retains 434 ft-lbs at 600 yards 6.5mm Grendel with a 100 grain Berger OTM (.370 BC) at 2,723 fps drops 108 inches (5 Mils) and drifts 43 inches (2 Mils) in a 10mph wind at 600 yards. This load retains 474 ft-lbs of energy at 600 yards. The .308 Win Black Hills 150 grain Nosler Ballistic Tip (.435 BC) launched at 2,659 fps drops 104 inches (4.8 Mils) and drifts 36 inches (1.7 Mils) in a 10mph wind at 600 yards. This load retains 820 ft-lbs at 600 yards. A 6.5mm Grendel 120 grain Nosler Ballistic Tip (.458 BC) launched at 2,535 fps drops slightly more, 113 inches (5.2 Mils) and drifts the same 36 inches (1.7 Mils) in a 10mph wind at 600 yards. This load retains 620 ft-lbs at 600 yards. The .308 Win 168 grain TAP (.475 BC) launched at 2,482 fps drops 117 inches (5.4 Mils) and drifts 36 inches (1.67 Mils) in a 10mph wind at 600 yards. It retains 859 ft-lbs of energy at 600 yards. The 6.5mm Grendel 123 grain Scenar (.527 BC) launched at 2,523 fps drops 108 inches (5 Mils) and drifts 31 inches (1.4 Mils) in a 10 mph wind at 600 yards. It retains 724 ft-lbs at 600 yards. So, even at 600 yards the 6.5x38mm Grendel compares exceedingly well to the much larger 7.62x51mm/.308 Win. Even when fired from carbine length barrels! |
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Gunwritr (and others of course): I just read this article earlier today on the 7.62x40 that Bill Wilson is pushing. It sounds interdasting as well. .223 casings necked up to take .308 rounds, how simple is that? http://www.shootingillustrated.com/index.php/17247/7-62x40-wt/ It seems like we've reached a point where a concept has reached maturity (bigger boolits out of the AR15 platform), and now the level of development of the concept is just racing along at breakneck speed, with new calibers being developed and introduced at a rate the industry hasn't seen before. Were are in the midst of record breaking spurt of caliber expansion. Where do you see this going? Here's a couple of thoughts: First, there won't be another caliber as plentiful and affordable as 5.56 until the military at large goes to something else. There is no indication that is going to happen any time soon at all. Once the military DOES go to something else, 5.56 will continue to be the most plentiful and affordable caliber for a long time thereafter anyway, simply because of the sheer numbers of rifles already chambered in that cartridge. Second, I see two seperate and mutually exclusive groups of bigger boolits calibers emerging. In order to survive these calibers must be demonstrably better at what they do than 5.56 is. One is the short barreled/short range/suppressed category, which includes the quiet but heavy-bullet-weight calibers such as 6.8spc and .300 Blackout. The other is the long range category, guys who want to push 800 or more yards out of an AR-15. 6.5 Grendel goes here, and maybe the .30 Remington AR if someone will stuff a decent bullet in the casing (Hornady A-max?). So a split develops between these two categories––guys who want alot of stopping power at short range or a very quiet suppressed gun go in one direction, and guy who want to knock varmints down from very far away go in another direction. This is already happening, so its not a big prediction or anything. To people paying attention to all this the split is obvious. But if we have five calibers to choose from in each category, with supporters and detractors of each among the "early adopters", what is it going to take to have one rise to prominence? Or will that even happen? Is the future of AR15 calibers nothing more than a choaotic mess of people arguing that 6mm Xtreme is superior to 6.4 Costa Spec II? Here is my take on it........ Marketing. You see endless new cartridges introduced for bolt action hunting rifles which do nothing better than cartridges introduced 100 years ago. Why? To stimulate press at SHOT Show to stimulate sales for 5 years. Then if they die, who cares. You are seeing the same happen here with the AR now. A lot of it depends upon how good the cartridge itself is, how well it is marketed and what niche it fills. Some like the .450 Shrubmaster, .30 Remington AR go nowhere. Others stick around. People will buy stuff just because its new, but that doesn't ensure long term success. The main thing which drives sales is AMMO PRICES Cheap ammo drives sales. Period. You take a good cartridge which people like and combine it with cheap ammo and you have a winner........ ETA stop and think how stupid it is to shoot 220 grain Sierra MatchKings at 100 yards or so in subsonic .300 AAC loads. Think how expensive 220 grain MatchKings are. The bigger and heavier the bullet, the more materials required, the more precisely its made, the more expensive it will be. If you are merrily blasting steel at 100 yards or less with your .300 AAC wouldn't you rather do it with steel cased ammo firing an inexpensive 220 grain FMJ? Who cares if it only groups 2-3MOA if its only $4 a box compared to $20...... |
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*snip* Thanks for proving me right. Grendel can be a better long range round than .308 I wouldn't say better, I would say different. The .308 Win can do things the 6.5mm Grendel simply can't do. It is full size rifle cartridge and has drastically more case capacity. It is no slouch. However, if you were to compare the ENTIRE system, regarding overall weight, bulk, handling and cost.......then I think the Grendel does have some nice advantages in certain areas. I would much rather have a 20 inch 6.5mm Grendel DMR than a 20 inch AR-10 sized platform in .308 Win...... but its up to the individual to decide which is best for their specific needs.... |
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Cheap ammo drives sales. Period. You take a good cartridge which people like and combine it with cheap ammo and you have a winner........ Your statement makes an Armalite announcement from yesterday make more sense to me. http://www.ammoland.com/2011/11/10/armalite-annouces-spr-mod-1-rifles-in-new-calibers/ Armalite is making their top of the line, monolithic uppered SPR Mod 1 super-bada$$ rifles in two new calibers, 6.8spc II and... wait for it... 7.62x39! WAIT WUT Well, its a cheap way to shoot a .30 cal round out of an AR now isn't it? |
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Cheap ammo drives sales. Period. You take a good cartridge which people like and combine it with cheap ammo and you have a winner........ Your statement makes an Armalite announcement from yesterday make more sense to me. http://www.ammoland.com/2011/11/10/armalite-annouces-spr-mod-1-rifles-in-new-calibers/ Armalite is making their top of the line, monolithic uppered SPR Mod 1 super-badass rifles in two new calibers, 6.8spc II and... wait for it... 7.62x39! WAIT WUT Well, its a cheap way to shoot a .30 cal round out of an AR now isn't it? ArmaLite is still in business......wow you learn something new every day. If it was possible to manufacture RELIABLE x39mm AR mags on a large scale then the 7.62x39mm would be more interesting. The 7.62x39mms downfall in the AR is the only reason why the .300 AAC exists. What needs to happen is to have a company have the balls to stand up and move away from the traditional 5.56x45mm mag well dimensions which handicap the snot out of everything people are trying to do now. The .300 AAC and 7.62x40mm are interesting from the concept of bigger bullets from a .223 Rem sized case which will actually function in an AR. But performance wise they offer zip over a 7.62x39mm. I mean, think about that....... They are great for use inside 300 yards. What I like about the 6.5mm Grendel is the ability to smack things hard up close and at distance. My next project is trying to get a 6.5mm Grendel subsonic load to run using 160 grain bullets............ |
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ArmaLite is still in business......wow you learn something new every day. If it was possible to manufacture RELIABLE x39mm AR mags on a large scale then the 7.62x39mm would be more interesting. The 7.62x39mms downfall in the AR is the only reason why the .300 AAC exists. What needs to happen is to have a company have the balls to stand up and move away from the traditional 5.56x45mm mag well dimensions which handicap the snot out of everything people are trying to do now. No reliable 7.62x39 mags? But C-Products is going to come out with... oh. But if you're going to move away from the 5.56 mag well, why not just go with the AR-10? If the mags are the only problem with 7.62x39, how come nobody but MGI has come out with an AR-47 type lower? And why did MGI even make their lower modular? If I'm going to spend that much money on a lower why would I EVER put the 5.56 magwell on it and use it to do what a $90 lower can do? Argh! How come nobody but airsofters and anime special forces bunny rabits has an AR that takes AK mags? [Top Gear] How hard can it be? [/Top Gear] |
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ArmaLite is still in business......wow you learn something new every day. If it was possible to manufacture RELIABLE x39mm AR mags on a large scale then the 7.62x39mm would be more interesting. The 7.62x39mms downfall in the AR is the only reason why the .300 AAC exists. What needs to happen is to have a company have the balls to stand up and move away from the traditional 5.56x45mm mag well dimensions which handicap the snot out of everything people are trying to do now. No reliable 7.62x39 mags? But C-Products is going to come out with... oh. But if you're going to move away from the 5.56 mag well, why not just go with the AR-10? If the mags are the only problem with 7.62x39, how come nobody but MGI has come out with an AR-47 type lower? And why did MGI even make their lower modular? If I'm going to spend that much money on a lower why would I EVER put the 5.56 magwell on it and use it to do what a $90 lower can do? Argh! How come nobody but airsofters and anime special forces bunny rabits has an AR that takes AK mags? [Top Gear] How hard can it be? [/Top Gear] Why not go to an AR-10? Because its too big and stupid. The mag well doesn't need to just be longer, but wider as well. The height would need to be shorter to allow a proper 7.62x39mm mag design. A wider mag well would allow a more reliable mag to be designed. There was a lot of work put into 7.62x39mm ARs on behalf of the US .mil and what did we end up with.........6.8 SPC and .300 AAC. |
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