In other news, Dick Swan has now copyrighted the number 6 and will be suing the fuck out of SAAMI.

There are million graphs & charts that show the same thing.



 

Of that we can be sure of....

Fortunately, I think you are.;). When this cheap ammo hits the market I think popularity of the grendel will skyrocket.  Relatively few people will know or care about the trademark issues.

This.



What they do is give the grendel an insane MV so naive fanboys who have no clue or experience can smugly show graphs of grendel dominance. 2800 fps with a 140 grain bullet.......and it barely edged out the 308 competitor.



 

fanboy! LOL!



I'd take a 6.8 SPR over a .308 SPR any day of the week as well. Both cartridges shoot flatter at longer distances.



 

I'd rather have a .22lr SPR. That shoots flatter than any of them. Less recoil, too.

We've already had an expert in here say that 6.5 Grendel is better after 600 meters



 

Compared to 5.56, it kicks it's ass....

Lots of folks that love the Grendel love it on paper.  I doubt most of them send rounds down range to 1000 yards + on any sort of regular basis.  I shoot at NRA Whittington in matches every month from March to September and get a fair bit of trigger time out to 1000 yards and beyond.

I've seen some 6.5mm cartridges do some amazing things at 800 to 1000 yards in winds you wouldn't believe.  But they weren't Grendels.  They were 260 REM, 6.5x47 Lapua, and 6.5-284.  And yes, those little 6.5 bullets are something in the wind, especially compared to 308.

But the Grendel can't launch 142 SMKs or 139 Scenars with enough velocity to do amazing things at 1000 yards.  Not enough powder capacity.

What the Grendel will do is outperform virtually any other cartridge you can run through a standard-lower AR in the wind, at distance.  And that's pretty clear.

-David
Edgewood, NM

Isn't  Les Baer's .264 LBC virtually the same thing except for some tiny, inconsequential,  dimensional differences,  and fully compatable with the 6.5 Grendel?

The .264 LBC cartridge is a 6.5mm Grendel cartridge with a different headstamp....

For its size, the 6.5mm Grendel performs surprisingly well.

This was a my Grendel at 1000.  I have shot many 6, 7 & 8" groups as well.  123 smks

Only a slight difference in the throat angles.  Ammo is identical.

The LBC is said to be a little pickier about the bullet.

I think that the compound throat angle is part of the reason Bill Alexander was such a stickler about the cartridge. I think that he considers that throat critical to accuracy and usefulness with different bullet weights.
Les Baer decided he liked the cartridge, but not being told how to chamber barrels.
I read a bunch about the Grendel a few years ago, but never got around to buying one. i did talk several times with the folks at Alexander Arms; they seemed like good people.

Is the 120 grain MPT  Wolf suitable hunting der-sized animals or hogs?

So who makes the best 20" AR barrels for the 6.5G?

There are several really good ones out there.  I've been very happy with my Satern so far.  I believe you can get a Lohar Walther from Alexander Arms.

Shilen, right down the road from me, makes the upgrade from the standard barrel.
the Saterns are quite a price jump.

I think I am making the jump to 6.5G for deer next season.   I do not care if the 308 is a better long range round or not.  308 wont fit in my AR15 and the 6.5G is the best long range cartridge that will fit mag length in an AR15.  

You guys are complaining about comparing the 6.5 to the 308 and comparing the 6.5 VLDs to 7.62 Nato, can the 30 cals with better BCs be loaded to fit in the magazine of an Ar10?  I do not know, shooting beyond 500 yards has never been something I got into so I am pretty ignorant on this deal.

They're also out of production for the moment, since their contract expired and wasn't renewed.  I don't know the details behind the scenes, so I won't speculate.
If you're getting a Grendel-chambered Satern now (and they are out there), it's going to be NOS.

My 20" Satern shoots about 1.5" @100yds with the Wolf MPT.  That's not the best ammo, though, so I'd expect I can tighten that up once I start handloading.  Silly me, I ordered everything I needed except a shellholder.  A silly $3 part.  How embarassing.  
Once that comes in the mail next week, I'll be rolling my own from Wolf (PPU) brass.

Generally, if you want a dedicated long range AR10, you build a 6.5Creedmoor.  

But mag length is 2.845" (as opposed to the AR15 at 2.255") and an AR10 can feed 168SMK loads from the magazine.  The AR15 magazine length tops out at the 77SMKs, whereas the Grendel gets up up to 145ish, though the 123s offer the best BC.

I wouldn't call a .308 168SMK very low drag, but for the cartridge it's about as good as you can get.

I believe they are producing the .264 LBC now.

My 20" (actually 19.5 now) Satern loves 123 smks. See pic above. 28.3 gr 8208.

Shot this yesterday evening.

 

Damn, half a minute at 1000 yards is pretty DAMN good.



 

Texas A&M Marine:

What kinda velocity are you getting with that load through your rifle?

And FYI, that 1000 yard group of yours is sub-half MOA.  One MOA at 1000 yards is about 10.4".   Must have been some nice conditions....

-David
Edgewood, NM

Yes, it is a great load especially for the money.

My 20 inch 6.5mm Grendel Satern shoots 3-4 inches at 600 yards with Hornady factory ammunition.

The group on the left is from my 20 inch gun at 100 yards (.3 inch), the one on the right is from my chrome-lined
16 inch carbine at 100 yards (.6 inch). Both with Hornady 123 grain AMAX.
I have put 3 rounds on steel at 600 yards that dropped into 4 inches, in 3 seconds before.

These loads were averaging 2550 but my brass (Laupa) was taking a beating.  I've since backed them off a bit to 2515.  Still get the same accuracy though.

Yea, that pic was generated using an android app called Target Calculator.  I ignore the MOA figures.

Conditions were about perfect that day.

Thanks for the real-world velocities.  Low to mid 2500s does make sense.  I was pretty sure whoever posted built those 2800 fps graphs with a Grendel were smoking crack.  I wonder if ArmyInfantryVet will hop back in and withdraw his 2800 fps Grendel compared with 308 ballistics tables & statements?

Need to download that Android app.  Looks handy.

-David
Edgewood, NM

Whoa, there's an Android app I have missed?

Yes, if your brass is showing pressure signs, you are already way over the pressure max in an AR. While that is fine for those who understand they will need to replace their bolt sooner, publishing those velocities to advocate for the Grendel is just dishonest (I'm referring to the Shooting Times article). That's like shooting proof loads in an AR to make the argument that 5.56 gives the 22-250 a run for its money. The Grendel has enough good things going for it that such outlandish claims are completely unnecessary.



 

Here are some real world velocity readings for FACTORY 6.5mm Grendel loads from both 20 and 16 inch barrels

Alexander Arms 20 inch GDMR
6.5mm Grendel
Alexander Arms Berger 100 grain OTM  2,847
Alexander Arms Barnes 120 grain TSX  2,551
Alexander Arms Nosler 120 grain BT  2,600
Wolf 120 grain MPT  2,541
Alexander Arms 123 grain Lapua Scenar      2,627
Hornady 123 grain A-MAX  2,582

Alexander Arms 16 inch Mid-Length carbine
6.5mm Grendel
Alexander Arms Berger 100 grain OTM  2,723
Alexander Arms 120grain Nosler BT  2,535
Wolf 120 grain MPT  2,445
Alexander Arms 123 grain Lapua Scenar  2,523
Hornady 123 grain A-MAX  2,463
Notes: Velocities are averages of five shots measured on an Oehler 35P chronograph 12 feet from the muzzle at an ambient temperature of 90 degrees F at 1030 feet above Sea Level.

yeap 123 grn 6.5s at the same velocity as 168-175 grn smks in a .308.

with a higher bc!

Velocity comparison of .308 Win factory loads
Fired from a 26 inch Sako TRG-22

Black Hills 175 grain Match 2603 fps
PMC 168 grain Match 2649 fps
Sellier & Bellot 168 grain Match 2,574 fps
Winchester 168 grain Match 2600 fps
I measured these velocities from my personal Sako TRG-22 with an Oehler 35P chronograph.

Let’s compare the Black Hills .308 Win 175 grain Match load fired from a 26 inch barrel to an Alexander Arms 6.5mm Grendel 123 grain Match load fired from a 20 inch barrel.

The Black Hills load is topped with a 175 grain Sierra MatchKing.
This has a published BC of .505 @ 2,800 fps and above and .496 from
2,800 fps to 1,800 fps. So at .308 Win velocities we’ll go with .496.

The Alexander Arms load is topped with a 123 grain Lapua Scenar. Lapua has just completed extensive ballistic testing of their projectiles using radar and has corrected this projectile’s BC to .527 which is known to be very accurate.

Velocity of Alexander Arms 123 grain Scenar load from my 20 inch GDMR averages 2,627 fps. Both the .308 Win and 6.5mm Grendel loads were measured using an Oehler 35P chronograph out of my personal firearms. Velocities have been checked and rechecked over a period of years, I know they are accurate.

Using Berger Bullets software
.308 Win 175 grain MatchKing at 2,603 fps VS 6.5mm Grendel 123 grain Scenar at 2,627 fps
Velocity comparison
.308 Win VS 6.5mm Grendel
Range Velocity
Muzzle 2,603 fps VS 2,627 fps
100- 2424 fps VS 2458 fps
300- 2088 fps VS 2138 fps
600- 1641 fps VS 1708 fps
800- 1390 fps VS 1460 fps
1000- 1191 fps VS 1256 fps
So the 6.5mm Grendel has a higher initial velocity and retains more velocity out past 1,000 yards.


Energy Comparison
.308 Win VS 6.5mm Grendel
Range Energy
Muzzle 2633 ft-lbs VS 1885 ft-lbs
100 2284 ft-lbs VS 1649 ft-lbs
300 1695 ft-lbs VS 1249 ft-lbs
600 1046 ft-lbs VS 797 ft-lbs
800 750 ft-lbs VS 582 ft-lbs
1000 551 ft-lbs VS 431 ft-lbs
The .308 Win plainly has more energy from the muzzle all the way out. However the Grendel does a surprising job of closing the gap at distance.

Drop Comparison
.308 Win VS 6.5mm Grendel
Range Drop with 100 yard Zero
100 0 inches VS 0 inches
300 -15.7 inches VS -15.1 inches
600 -103 inches VS -98.4 inches
800 -223 inches VS -211 inches
1000 -416 inches VS -389 inches
Regarding bullet drop, the Grendel has a slight advantage but the two are really neck and neck.

Drift Comparison
.308 Win VS 6.5mm Grendel
Drift in 10mph Full Value Wind
Range Drift
100 -.7 inch VS -.6 inch
300 -7.1 inches VS -6.5 inches
600 -31.9 inches VS -29 inches
800 -61.4 inches VS -55.9 inches
1000 -103 inches VS -93.9 inches
When it comes to wind drift the 6.5mm Grendel slightly edges this .308 Win load out.

Now, keep in mind this is just a comparison between two factory loads. However the .308 Win was fired from a 26 inch barrel
and is Black Hills version of the US military M118 LR sniper load. The 6.5mm Grendel load is the best exterior ballistic wise from
Alexander Arms, but fired from a 20 inch barrel. Numbers were crunched using real world data.

Can I build a .308 handload to beat that particular 6.5mm Grendel factory load? Without a doubt.
But this is a comparison between two of the most popular factory loads.

Thanks for proving me right. Grendel can be a better long range round than .308





 

Here is some more info to consider.

Here is a comparison between .308 Win from a 16 inch carbine VS 6.5mm Grendel from a 16 inch carbine

Here are velocities I measured using an Oehler 35P:

From a DSA 16 inch FAL .308 Win
Black Hills 175 grain Match ran 2,378 fps
Black Hills 150 grain BT ran 2,643 fps
Sellier&Bellot 168 grain Match ran 2,419 fps
Hornady 110 grain TAP ran 2,894 fps
Hornady 155 grain TAP ran 2,547 fps
Hornady 150 grain Spire Point ran 2,635 fps
Santa Barbara 146 grain ball ran 2,611 fps


From a Springfield Armory SOCOM M1A .308 Win with 16 inch barrel
Hornady 110 grain TAP 2,935 fps
Hornady 155 grain TAP 2,589 fps
Hornady 168 grain TAP 2,482 fps
Black Hills 150 grain BT 2,659 fps

Now here are some velocities I chrono'd from a 16 inch 6.5mm Grendel carbine
Alexander Arms 100 grain Berger OTM  2,723 fps
Alexander Arms 123 grain Barnes TSX  2,494 fps
Alexander Arms 120 grain Nosler BT  2,535 fps
Wolf 120 grain MPT  2,445 fps
Alexander Arms 123 grain Lapua Scenar  2,523 fps
Hornady 123 grain A-MAX  2,463 fps

Lets compare apples to apples with factory loads, remember these are all from a
16 inch barrel.

.308 Win 110 grain Hornady TAP (.290 BC) at 2,935 fps drops
107 inches (4.96 Mils)and drifts 54 inches (2.5 Mils) in a 10mph wind at 600 yards.
This load retains 434 ft-lbs at 600 yards

6.5mm Grendel with a 100 grain Berger OTM (.370 BC) at 2,723 fps drops
108 inches (5 Mils) and drifts 43 inches (2 Mils) in a 10mph wind at 600 yards.
This load retains 474 ft-lbs of energy at 600 yards.


The .308 Win Black Hills 150 grain Nosler Ballistic Tip (.435 BC) launched at 2,659 fps
drops 104 inches (4.8 Mils) and drifts 36 inches (1.7 Mils) in a 10mph wind at 600 yards.
This load retains 820 ft-lbs at 600 yards.

A 6.5mm Grendel 120 grain Nosler Ballistic Tip (.458 BC) launched at 2,535 fps drops
slightly more, 113 inches (5.2 Mils) and drifts the same 36 inches (1.7 Mils) in a 10mph wind at 600 yards.
This load retains 620 ft-lbs at 600 yards.

The .308 Win 168 grain TAP (.475 BC) launched at 2,482 fps drops
117 inches (5.4 Mils) and drifts 36 inches (1.67 Mils) in a 10mph wind at 600 yards.
It retains 859 ft-lbs of energy at 600 yards.

The 6.5mm Grendel 123 grain Scenar (.527 BC) launched at 2,523 fps drops
108 inches (5 Mils) and drifts 31 inches (1.4 Mils) in a 10 mph wind at 600 yards.
It retains 724 ft-lbs at 600 yards.

So, even at 600 yards the 6.5x38mm Grendel compares exceedingly well to the much larger
7.62x51mm/.308 Win. Even when fired from carbine length barrels!

Here is my take on it........

Marketing.

You see endless new cartridges introduced for bolt action hunting rifles which do nothing better than cartridges introduced 100 years ago.
Why? To stimulate press at SHOT Show to stimulate sales for 5 years. Then if they die, who cares.

You are seeing the same happen here with the AR now. A lot of it depends upon how good the cartridge itself is, how well it is marketed and what niche it fills.
Some like the .450 Shrubmaster, .30 Remington AR go nowhere.

Others stick around.

People will buy stuff just because its new, but that doesn't ensure long term success.
The main thing which drives sales is

AMMO PRICES

Cheap ammo drives sales. Period.

You take a good cartridge which people like and combine it with cheap ammo and you
have a winner........

ETA stop and think how stupid it is to shoot 220 grain Sierra MatchKings at 100 yards or so in subsonic .300 AAC loads.
Think how expensive 220 grain MatchKings are. The bigger and heavier the bullet, the more materials required, the more
precisely its made, the more expensive it will be. If you are merrily blasting steel at 100 yards or less with your .300 AAC wouldn't
you rather do it with steel cased ammo firing an inexpensive 220 grain FMJ? Who cares if it only groups 2-3MOA if its only
$4 a box compared to $20......

see below....

I wouldn't say better, I would say different.
The .308 Win can do things the 6.5mm Grendel simply can't do. It is full size rifle cartridge
and has drastically more case capacity. It is no slouch.

However, if you were to compare the ENTIRE system, regarding overall weight, bulk, handling
and cost.......then I think the Grendel does have some nice advantages in certain areas.

I would much rather have a 20 inch 6.5mm Grendel DMR than a 20 inch AR-10 sized platform in .308 Win......

but its up to the individual to decide which is best for their specific needs....

ArmaLite is still in business......wow you learn something new every day.


If it was possible to manufacture RELIABLE x39mm AR mags on a large scale then the 7.62x39mm would be more interesting.
The 7.62x39mms downfall in the AR is the only reason why the .300 AAC exists.

What needs to happen is to have a company have the balls to stand up and move away from the traditional
5.56x45mm mag well dimensions which handicap the snot out of everything people are trying to do now.

The .300 AAC and 7.62x40mm are interesting from the concept of bigger bullets from a .223 Rem sized case which
will actually function in an AR. But performance wise they offer zip over a 7.62x39mm. I mean, think about that.......
They are great for use inside 300 yards. What I like about the 6.5mm Grendel is the ability to smack things hard
up close and at distance. My next project is trying to get a 6.5mm Grendel subsonic load to run using 160 grain
bullets............

Why not go to an AR-10? Because its too big and stupid.
The mag well doesn't need to just be longer, but wider as well.
The height would need to be shorter to allow a proper 7.62x39mm mag
design. A wider mag well would allow a more reliable mag to be designed.

There was a lot of work put into 7.62x39mm ARs on behalf of the US .mil and
what did we end up with.........6.8 SPC and .300 AAC.