MotherDearest Member Joined: Jun 2011  NC, USA Posts: 11 Feedback: 100% (2)	Posted: 7/28/2011 4:27:49 PM [Last Edit: 7/28/2011 4:27:49 PM by tony_k] THE IMAGE ABOVE IS A PAID ADVERTISEMENT Let the battle begin
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echo_5 unconventional Team Member Joined: Feb 2008  CT, USA Posts: 3845 Feedback: 100% (30) Link To This Post	Posted: 7/28/2011 1:37:01 PM I'll take the belt-fed everytime.
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BuffDragon Far Beyond Driven Team Member Joined: Oct 2005  TX, USA Posts: 2319 Feedback: 100% (84) Link To This Post	Posted: 7/28/2011 2:38:50 PM what kind of question is this? they're not even in the same arena.
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Aceecaus Member Team Member Joined: Sep 2007  TX, USA Posts: 571 Feedback: 100% (18) Link To This Post	Posted: 7/28/2011 2:46:00 PM Originally Posted By BuffDragon: what kind of question is this? they're not even in the same arena. This.
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damcv62 Member Team Member Joined: May 2007  TUN Posts: 36426 Feedback: 100% (64) Link To This Post	Posted: 7/28/2011 3:23:45 PM Why is this in NFA? Move it to GD.
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Chris0013 USMC 0311; Duh, Grunt Team Member Joined: Jul 2005  TX, USA Posts: 7434 Feedback: 0% (0) Link To This Post	Posted: 7/28/2011 4:28:42 PM Apples and oranges.....but happiness is a belt-fed weapon.
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Ragin_Cajun Cuddly as a Crowbar Team Member Joined: Mar 2006  LA, USA Posts: 9225 Feedback: 100% (4) Link To This Post	Posted: 7/28/2011 4:29:42 PM [Last Edit: 7/28/2011 4:30:24 PM by Ragin_Cajun] Which one is the better vehicle, an off-road 4x4 or a drag racer? FWIW, I'd take a belt-fed in a second over a glorified piston AR.
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searchin4shacks Member Team Member Joined: May 2009  USA Posts: 480 Feedback: 0% (0) Link To This Post	Posted: 7/28/2011 4:38:27 PM If SHTF, I'd rather have a belt fed gun for supressive fire. For all other times, the 416 would be nice. The problem is you never know when SHTF is gonna happen. Better safe than sorry!!! M249 everyday.
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AR15fan Member Team Member Joined: Mar 2001  USA Posts: 48412 Feedback: 100% (48) Link To This Post	Posted: 7/28/2011 4:45:48 PM Originally Posted By BuffDragon: what kind of question is this? they're not even in the same arena. Unfortunately the USMC leadership thinks they are and is replacing the SAW with the HK IAR (Modified 416)
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rangehunter Member Team Member Joined: Feb 2009  IL, USA Posts: 1006 Feedback: 0% (0) Link To This Post	Posted: 7/28/2011 4:45:48 PM One of the dumber threads I have seen today.....
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Ventilator The sharpest knife in a drawer full of spoons.... Team Member Joined: Jul 2007  AR, USA Posts: 1634 Feedback: 0% (0) Link To This Post	Posted: 7/28/2011 4:52:47 PM Dildoes. Dildoes I tell ya! Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
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Casimir_Pulaski Member Team Member Joined: Jul 2010  AR, USA Posts: 1373 Feedback: 100% (31) Link To This Post	Posted: 7/28/2011 4:58:09 PM Damn kids
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scottedward58 Member Team Member Joined: May 2010  USA Posts: 3579 Feedback: 0% (0) Link To This Post	Posted: 7/28/2011 5:01:12 PM Originally Posted By BuffDragon: what kind of question is this? they're not even in the same arena. Sure they are, both SAW's.
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R0N Member Team Member Joined: Aug 2004  USA Posts: 9492 Feedback: 100% (19) Link To This Post	Posted: 7/28/2011 5:06:43 PM Originally Posted By scottedward58: Originally Posted By BuffDragon: what kind of question is this? they're not even in the same arena. Sure they are, both SAW's. One is a LMG and one is an Automatic Rifle
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Shawnmt6601 Kuwabatake Sanjuro Team Member Joined: Mar 2008  KY, USA Posts: 9169 Feedback: 100% (25) Link To This Post	Posted: 7/28/2011 5:08:02 PM dumbshit post from a new guy trying to look cool and make a noise let the battle begin
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Ragin_Cajun Cuddly as a Crowbar Team Member Joined: Mar 2006  LA, USA Posts: 9230 Feedback: 100% (4) Link To This Post

Posted: 7/28/2011 5:11:26 PM [Last Edit: 7/28/2011 5:12:30 PM by Ragin_Cajun] Originally Posted By AR15fan: Originally Posted By BuffDragon: what kind of question is this? they're not even in the same arena. Unfortunately the USMC leadership thinks they are and is replacing the SAW with the HK IAR (Modified 416) I thought they were "augmenting" the M249. Hell, I sure hope so. What kind of buttfucking moron replaces a beltfed weapon featuring a quick-change barrel (like every other support weapon worth a shit in the last 1/2 century) with a mag-fed fixed barrel glorified assault rifle? Oh yeah, with a non-standard magwell and limited parts interchangability

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oldschool63 No Beans in Chili Team Member Joined: Oct 2006  TX, USA Posts: 15747 Feedback: 100% (18) Link To This Post	Posted: 7/28/2011 5:12:15 PM
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stoner63a Clinging to my God and Guns Team Member Joined: Aug 2003  CO, USA Posts: 7581 Feedback: 100% (141) Link To This Post

Posted: 7/28/2011 5:13:10 PM Originally Posted By AR15fan: Originally Posted By BuffDragon: what kind of question is this? they're not even in the same arena. Unfortunately the USMC leadership thinks they are and is replacing the SAW with the HK IAR (Modified 416) No, they are substituting weapons for certain missions at the commander's discretion. The M249 is not being phased out of service by the United States Marine Corps.

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DragoMuseveni Member Team Member Joined: Oct 2005  VA, USA Posts: 15578 Feedback: 100% (6) Link To This Post	Posted: 7/28/2011 5:13:54 PM What ever happened with the Shrike?
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ZootTX Huc accedit zambonis! Team Member Joined: Apr 2005  TX, USA Posts: 5667 Feedback: 100% (13) Link To This Post	Posted: 7/28/2011 5:15:05 PM Originally Posted By Shawnmt6601: dumbshit post from a new guy trying to look cool and make a noise let the battle begin Wonder if OP is 'familiar'
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ArmyInfantryVet Member Team Member Joined: Nov 2005  MI, USA Posts: 28812 Feedback: 100% (1) Link To This Post	Posted: 7/28/2011 5:17:08 PM [Last Edit: 7/28/2011 5:21:15 PM by ArmyInfantryVet] Depends on how you're going to employ them. Fire support? M249 Rifleman? HK416 Guns are tools and just like a hammer, wrench, and screwdriver, no one gun can do everything equally well as others.
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Dominus Member Team Member Joined: Mar 2002  CAN Posts: 562 Feedback: 0% (0) Link To This Post	Posted: 7/28/2011 5:18:34 PM Question for US .mil folk: during the detail strip of the M249, are you guys expected to disassemble the feed pawls?
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scottedward58 Member Team Member Joined: May 2010  USA Posts: 3582 Feedback: 0% (0) Link To This Post	Posted: 7/28/2011 5:19:22 PM Originally Posted By R0N: Originally Posted By scottedward58: Originally Posted By BuffDragon: what kind of question is this? they're not even in the same arena. Sure they are, both SAW's. One is a LMG and one is an Automatic Rifle Hey I think it's retarded too but they are both being used as squad automatic weapons.
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KG5S American by the grace of God ! Team Member Joined: Feb 2006  AR, USA Posts: 11457 Feedback: 0% (0) Link To This Post	Posted: 7/28/2011 5:20:54 PM Bad ARFCOM Get both
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ArmyInfantryVet Member Team Member Joined: Nov 2005  MI, USA Posts: 28813 Feedback: 100% (1) Link To This Post	Posted: 7/28/2011 5:21:33 PM [Last Edit: 7/28/2011 5:22:07 PM by ArmyInfantryVet] Originally Posted By Dominus: Question for US .mil folk: during the detail strip of the M249, are you guys expected to disassemble the feed pawls? NO
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Dominus Member Team Member Joined: Mar 2002  CAN Posts: 563 Feedback: 0% (0) Link To This Post

Posted: 7/28/2011 5:31:15 PM Originally Posted By ArmyInfantryVet: Originally Posted By Dominus: Question for US .mil folk: during the detail strip of the M249, are you guys expected to disassemble the feed pawls? NO I wonder if the reliability issues that the M249 had in the sandbox, which prompted the development of the IAR, could've been solved by simply teaching grunts how to do this. It really isn't that hard. Not something you'd do in the field, for sure, but back at the FOB, why not?

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SteelGator Member Team Member Joined: Jul 2010  WI, USA Posts: 319 Feedback: 0% (0) Link To This Post	Posted: 7/28/2011 5:32:10 PM Originally Posted By BuffDragon: what kind of question is this? they're not even in the same arena. This as others have stated.
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Evilsmurfkilla Team Member Team Member Joined: Jan 2009  TN, USA Posts: 5044 Feedback: 100% (1) Link To This Post	Posted: 7/28/2011 5:40:57 PM For general mall ninjaing I'll take the belt fed. For real world actual use a 416 would probably be better to carry around. Of course I wouldn't mind having a SAW gunner in the squad.
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South_Side_Shooter Member Team Member Joined: Jun 2010  TX, USA Posts: 3066 Feedback: 100% (1) Link To This Post	Posted: 7/28/2011 5:47:52 PM Belt-fed/quick change barrel or fixed barrel/magazine fed...... Gee, let me think?
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AR15fan Member Team Member Joined: Mar 2001  USA Posts: 48414 Feedback: 100% (48) Link To This Post	Posted: 7/28/2011 5:48:09 PM Originally Posted By SteelGator: Originally Posted By BuffDragon: what kind of question is this? they're not even in the same arena. This as others have stated. Not familiar with the IAR? it is essentially a 416 and its the M249's replacement.
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Cavalry_Scout Warrior-Poet Team Member Joined: Jun 2007  USA Posts: 4074 Feedback: 0% (0) Link To This Post	Posted: 7/28/2011 5:50:44 PM Originally Posted By Aceecaus: Originally Posted By BuffDragon: what kind of question is this? they're not even in the same arena. This. That's like asking Bentley or Ford..
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Cavalry_Scout Warrior-Poet Team Member Joined: Jun 2007  USA Posts: 4075 Feedback: 0% (0) Link To This Post	Posted: 7/28/2011 6:01:44 PM Originally Posted By Dominus: Question for US .mil folk: during the detail strip of the M249, are you guys expected to disassemble the feed pawls? Nope...
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Cavalry_Scout Warrior-Poet Team Member Joined: Jun 2007  USA Posts: 4076 Feedback: 0% (0) Link To This Post	Posted: 7/28/2011 6:05:15 PM Originally Posted By Dominus: Question for US .mil folk: during the detail strip of the M249, are you guys expected to disassemble the feed pawls? Nope...
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hondaciv No. I will not vote for a RINO. Ever. Team Member Joined: Apr 2007  TX, USA Posts: 15056 Feedback: 100% (57) Link To This Post	Posted: 7/28/2011 6:06:52 PM [Last Edit: 7/28/2011 6:07:10 PM by hondaciv] The 416 is THE CADILLAC of semi-automatic weapons.
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Capt-Planet Member Team Member Joined: May 2007  NH, USA Posts: 2670 Feedback: 0% (0) Link To This Post

Posted: 7/28/2011 6:15:06 PM Originally Posted By AR15fan: Originally Posted By SteelGator: Originally Posted By BuffDragon: what kind of question is this? they're not even in the same arena. This as others have stated. Not familiar with the IAR? it is essentially a 416 and its the M249's replacement. One more time: It is not the M249's replacement, it is to supplement them to give the commanders flexibility. That said, I think it's a stupid decision.

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Silver_Surfer Member Joined: Mar 2001  HI, USA Posts: 9957 Feedback: 100% (2) Link To This Post	Posted: 7/28/2011 6:37:16 PM Originally Posted By echo_5: I'll take the belt-fed everytime. yeah & can go either way.
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AR15fan Member Team Member Joined: Mar 2001  USA Posts: 48415 Feedback: 100% (48) Link To This Post

Posted: 7/28/2011 6:41:34 PM Originally Posted By Capt-Planet: Originally Posted By AR15fan: Originally Posted By SteelGator: Originally Posted By BuffDragon: what kind of question is this? they're not even in the same arena. This as others have stated. Not familiar with the IAR? it is essentially a 416 and its the M249's replacement. One more time: It is not the M249's replacement, it is to supplement them to give the commanders flexibility. That said, I think it's a stupid decision. I'm aware that is the official line. But the reality is unless you make some E-3 carry them both, you are going to have to pick one and leave the other behind. There are no time outs when you grabbed the IAR expecting an urban engagement and instead get into a gunfight in the open. You gonna detach a couple guys to run back to the rear to grab the SAWs you left behind for the IARs?

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AR15fan Member Team Member Joined: Mar 2001  USA Posts: 48416 Feedback: 100% (48) Link To This Post	Posted: 7/28/2011 6:43:43 PM Originally Posted By ArmyInfantryVet: Depends on how you're going to employ them. Fire support? M249 Rifleman? HK416 Guns are tools and just like a hammer, wrench, and screwdriver, no one gun can do everything equally well as others. There are plenty of select fire 5.56mm carbines in a marine squad. Giving up the belt fed 5.56mm to add HK carbines is stupid.
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David45 Member Joined: Apr 2011  VA, USA Posts: 83 Feedback: 0% (0) Link To This Post

Posted: 7/28/2011 6:50:11 PM Holding a M249 with the short barrel and stock, along with a 100 round "nutsack" instead of the usual 200 round drum isn't that heavy or unwieldly. If soldiers need something lighter for room clearing then why not just issue fully automatic M4s with a beta mag or something? I don't see how it's a good idea, especially in this budgetary environment to pay out the ass for HK stuff when it seems you could mod the prevalent carbine if you really needed something lighter for the job. Replacing your force's light machine gun with a magazine-fed automatic rifle that has no quick change barrel seems like a regression instead of moving on to something better.

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Capt-Planet Member Team Member Joined: May 2007  NH, USA Posts: 2673 Feedback: 0% (0) Link To This Post

Posted: 7/28/2011 6:53:35 PM Originally Posted By AR15fan: Originally Posted By Capt-Planet: Originally Posted By AR15fan: Originally Posted By SteelGator: Originally Posted By BuffDragon: what kind of question is this? they're not even in the same arena. This as others have stated. Not familiar with the IAR? it is essentially a 416 and its the M249's replacement. One more time: It is not the M249's replacement, it is to supplement them to give the commanders flexibility. That said, I think it's a stupid decision. I'm aware that is the official line. But the reality is unless you make some E-3 carry them both, you are going to have to pick one and leave the other behind. There are no time outs when you grabbed the IAR expecting an urban engagement and instead get into a gunfight in the open. You gonna detach a couple guys to run back to the rear to grab the SAWs you left behind for the IARs?

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ArmyInfantryVet Member Team Member Joined: Nov 2005  MI, USA Posts: 28818 Feedback: 100% (1) Link To This Post

Posted: 7/29/2011 3:45:29 AM Originally Posted By AR15fan: Originally Posted By ArmyInfantryVet: Depends on how you're going to employ them. Fire support? M249 Rifleman? HK416 Guns are tools and just like a hammer, wrench, and screwdriver, no one gun can do everything equally well as others. There are plenty of select fire 5.56mm carbines in a marine squad. Giving up the belt fed 5.56mm to add HK carbines is stupid. Preaching to the choir

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R0N Member Team Member Joined: Aug 2004  USA Posts: 9495 Feedback: 100% (19) Link To This Post

Posted: 7/29/2011 5:10:08 AM Originally Posted By ArmyInfantryVet: Originally Posted By Dominus: Question for US .mil folk: during the detail strip of the M249, are you guys expected to disassemble the feed pawls? NO field no, detail yes. There are 3 assemblies on the SAW that detailed stripping and cleaning are not authorized on: the buffer, buttstock and trigger all others can be detailed stripped.

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R0N Member Team Member Joined: Aug 2004  USA Posts: 9496 Feedback: 100% (19) Link To This Post

Posted: 7/29/2011 5:13:48 AM Originally Posted By AR15fan: Originally Posted By ArmyInfantryVet: Depends on how you're going to employ them. Fire support? M249 Rifleman? HK416 Guns are tools and just like a hammer, wrench, and screwdriver, no one gun can do everything equally well as others. There are plenty of select fire 5.56mm carbines in a marine squad. Giving up the belt fed 5.56mm to add HK carbines is stupid. The problem is you often see hundreds of rounds of "Suppressive fire" shot with no effect. Watch films like Restropo, were they do the equivalent of mad minutes on regular bases against the same people. In the end, other than making you feel good at looking at the fire works all you are doing is making noise.

In the real world off-campus, good marksmanship trumps good will. User Info

Brett_Bass Member Joined: Sep 2003  WA, USA Posts: 1115 Feedback: 100% (5) Link To This Post

Posted: 7/29/2011 5:36:19 AM Originally Posted By Dominus: Originally Posted By ArmyInfantryVet: Originally Posted By Dominus: Question for US .mil folk: during the detail strip of the M249, are you guys expected to disassemble the feed pawls? NO I wonder if the reliability issues that the M249 had in the sandbox, which prompted the development of the IAR, could've been solved by simply teaching grunts how to do this. It really isn't that hard. Not something you'd do in the field, for sure, but back at the FOB, why not? A point of order: It wasn't reliability issues that led to the adoption of the M27. It was doctrinal issues that arose from the use of the SAW in MOUT and other things. Doctrinally, the SAW, being an open-bolt weapons system, cannot be used to initiate an ambush, and the SAW gunner can't be first in a stack. The cumbersome nature of the weapon in close quarters and the aforementioned "issues" led the Marine Corps to move toward an automatic rifle. Initially, it was supposed to be another tool in the toolbox, but it sounds like the 'Corps is pushing rather hard to substitute the IAR for the SAW on a one-for-one basis. With the caveat that I've not fired one or humped it around a combat zone (I've only ever finger-fucked one of them on one occasion; full disclosure), I remain deeply, deeply skeptical about the idea that a 30-shot automatic rifle can adequately replace a 100- or 200-shot machinegun with a higher sustained rate of fire.

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MotherDearest Member Joined: Jun 2011  NC, USA Posts: 15 Feedback: 100% (2) Link To This Post

Posted: 7/29/2011 7:50:19 AM Originally Posted By Shawnmt6601: dumbshit post from a new guy trying to look cool and make a noise let the battle begin not really. i just wanted to see wht other peoples opinions were one the 2 since the IAR is planned to replace the 249. i thought it was a dumb move by the MC but other marines i work with disagreed. plus every thread turns into a battle for one something or another and you dont have to be an ass, bud.

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Young-Kiwi Member Joined: Oct 2005  NZL Posts: 1128 Feedback: 0% (0) Link To This Post	Posted: 7/29/2011 8:19:30 AM I have a feeling that the HK416 will go the same way as the L86, eventually. For exactly the same reasons
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R0N Member Team Member Joined: Aug 2004  USA Posts: 9505 Feedback: 100% (19) Link To This Post

Posted: 7/30/2011 5:05:25 AM Originally Posted By Brett_Bass: Originally Posted By Dominus: Originally Posted By ArmyInfantryVet: Originally Posted By Dominus: Question for US .mil folk: during the detail strip of the M249, are you guys expected to disassemble the feed pawls? NO I wonder if the reliability issues that the M249 had in the sandbox, which prompted the development of the IAR, could've been solved by simply teaching grunts how to do this. It really isn't that hard. Not something you'd do in the field, for sure, but back at the FOB, why not? A point of order: It wasn't reliability issues that led to the adoption of the M27. It was doctrinal issues that arose from the use of the SAW in MOUT and other things. Doctrinally, the SAW, being an open-bolt weapons system, cannot be used to initiate an ambush, and the SAW gunner can't be first in a stack. The cumbersome nature of the weapon in close quarters and the aforementioned "issues" led the Marine Corps to move toward an automatic rifle. Initially, it was supposed to be another tool in the toolbox, but it sounds like the 'Corps is pushing rather hard to substitute the IAR for the SAW on a one-for-one basis. With the caveat that I've not fired one or humped it around a combat zone (I've only ever finger-fucked one of them on one occasion; full disclosure), I remain deeply, deeply skeptical about the idea that a 30-shot automatic rifle can adequately replace a 100- or 200-shot machinegun with a higher sustained rate of fire. It replaced the SAWs in the infantry fire teams and in LAR, each infantry company and LAR company will keep 9 SAWs to be issued as required.

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Avandir I'm allergic to bullshit. Team Member Joined: Oct 2007  OK, USA Posts: 1542 Feedback: 0% (0) Link To This Post	Posted: 7/30/2011 5:13:34 AM Originally Posted By BuffDragon: what kind of question is this? they're not even in the same arena. What you said reminded me of that scene.
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dangerdan Royal Gunfighter Team Member Joined: Sep 2005  TX, USA Posts: 1767 Feedback: 100% (36) Link To This Post	Posted: 7/30/2011 7:33:13 AM The SAW is an awesome weapon....when it's not jammed
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