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Posted: 11/23/2014 10:37:07 PM EDT
[#1]
Do they normally allow them to script and feed them talking points?
Open and transparent. Unless you are Republican. I can understand the media if it is sensitive info, but keeping it from equal counterparts seems not so good: 
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Posted: 11/23/2014 11:00:01 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Debaser:
I would love to see Holder's redacted reply to this one: http://i1294.photobucket.com/albums/b617/DebasAR/Capture2_zpse0a90396.png They don't even redact the same email the same way in separate files: http://i1294.photobucket.com/albums/b617/DebasAR/Capture3_zps6e22494e.png That's actually very interesting. I hate working with PDFs, but I should have some free time this week. I'm hoping to sit down and see if I can't build a timeline of emails back and forth, identifying actors and timestamps. I'll add "find duplicates with different redaction" to my list of things to search for. It might be enlightening to see what they are redacting in a few places - and it might also provide some leverage for investigators if they can ask why "this specific portion was redacted under the DP exemption", when it's obviously not appropriate. |
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MT, USA
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Posted: 11/23/2014 11:06:55 PM EDT
[Last Edit: hugh1]
[#3]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Debaser:
I would love to see Holder's redacted reply to this one: http://i1294.photobucket.com/albums/b617/DebasAR/Capture2_zpse0a90396.png They don't even redact the same email the same way in separate files: http://i1294.photobucket.com/albums/b617/DebasAR/Capture3_zps6e22494e.png  Edit; There is good reason to believe that he new.
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Posted: 11/23/2014 11:10:52 PM EDT
[Last Edit: SimonPhoto]
[#4]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Debaser:
I would love to see Holder's redacted reply to this one: http://i1294.photobucket.com/albums/b617/DebasAR/Capture2_zpse0a90396.png They don't even redact the same email the same way in separate files: http://i1294.photobucket.com/albums/b617/DebasAR/Capture3_zps6e22494e.png I wasn't able to find that reply, but I did find another one: From file DOJ-FF-04574 - DOJ-FF-04575 
From file DOJ-FF-04594 - DOJ-FF-04595 
Also, Mac's Finder is doing a fine job hashing through these. I'm looking for all emails right now that include anything from May 4, 2011. That's how I found the above - it's later, in the same conversation. |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 11/23/2014 11:19:37 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By hugh1:
Just because someone does not authorize something does not mean that they don't know about it and approve. Edit; There is good reason to believe that he new.
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By hugh1:
Originally Posted By Debaser:
I would love to see Holder's redacted reply to this one: http://i1294.photobucket.com/albums/b617/DebasAR/Capture2_zpse0a90396.png They don't even redact the same email the same way in separate files: http://i1294.photobucket.com/albums/b617/DebasAR/Capture3_zps6e22494e.png Edit; There is good reason to believe that he new.
Remind me again, who would have the authority to authorize an OCDETF investigation? Thought it was attorney general or deputy attorney general. |
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Posted: 11/23/2014 11:28:40 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TX_M1:
CNN probably keeps all the money. For those that missed this before CNN is paid by foreign and domestic Government agencies for specific content. They were probably counting on keeping the Senate. Hopefully it will sink Hillary. I find it interesting that there is not a single ITAR violation despite the numerous Fast and Furious weapons found in Mexico, why was Hillary Clinton not pushing DOJ for prosecution of ITAR violations? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TX_M1:
Originally Posted By Markypie:
Do the reporters in D.C. other than Sharyl Attkisson, get two paychecks? One from work, one from the administration? CNN probably keeps all the money. For those that missed this before CNN is paid by foreign and domestic Government agencies for specific content. Originally Posted By sixnine:
They were trying to run the clock out but I think that they overshot it. I see this dragging on until 0bama is out and there is no shield for these fuckers. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile They were probably counting on keeping the Senate. Hopefully it will sink Hillary. I find it interesting that there is not a single ITAR violation despite the numerous Fast and Furious weapons found in Mexico, why was Hillary Clinton not pushing DOJ for prosecution of ITAR violations? There has to be ITAR violations, unless Madame Skanketary authorized the export of the weapons which still spells "shitstorm". Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Posted: 11/24/2014 12:02:28 AM EDT
[#7]
This one is interesting - it's redacted in all copies except one - it honestly looks like they missed it. If nothing else, it seems like a candid look into how these people viewed the investigation.
link |
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Posted: 11/24/2014 5:55:06 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Debaser]
[#8]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By SimonPhoto:
That's actually very interesting. I hate working with PDFs, but I should have some free time this week. I'm hoping to sit down and see if I can't build a timeline of emails back and forth, identifying actors and timestamps. I'll add "find duplicates with different redaction" to my list of things to search for. It might be enlightening to see what they are redacting in a few places - and it might also provide some leverage for investigators if they can ask why "this specific portion was redacted under the DP exemption", when it's obviously not appropriate. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By SimonPhoto:
Originally Posted By Debaser:
I would love to see Holder's redacted reply to this one: http://i1294.photobucket.com/albums/b617/DebasAR/Capture2_zpse0a90396.png They don't even redact the same email the same way in separate files: http://i1294.photobucket.com/albums/b617/DebasAR/Capture3_zps6e22494e.png That's actually very interesting. I hate working with PDFs, but I should have some free time this week. I'm hoping to sit down and see if I can't build a timeline of emails back and forth, identifying actors and timestamps. I'll add "find duplicates with different redaction" to my list of things to search for. It might be enlightening to see what they are redacting in a few places - and it might also provide some leverage for investigators if they can ask why "this specific portion was redacted under the DP exemption", when it's obviously not appropriate. I was thinking the same thing. By showing, through inconsistent redacting in these emails, that things that shouldn't have been redacted but were calls into question all edits. If they were wrong in redacting known examples, how can we trust any of it? |
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USA
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Posted: 11/24/2014 7:04:30 AM EDT
[#9]
Bump for day crew
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Posted: 11/24/2014 8:39:59 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By SimonPhoto:
This one is interesting - it's redacted in all copies except one - it honestly looks like they missed it. If nothing else, it seems like a candid look into how these people viewed the investigation. link A quick read makes me wonder, what would they redact in that one? Or why? |
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Posted: 11/24/2014 9:24:19 AM EDT
[#11]
Didn't make sense to It's an email about their rebuttal to the report from the oversight committee. As far as I could see none of that had anything to do with any current operations that could be compromised. There was no need for anything to be redacted from that email.
Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Posted: 11/24/2014 9:27:56 AM EDT
[#12]
What was redacted in the other copies? Was it names in the emails, or was it who was sending and receiving them?
Anybody else curious if these email addresses are complete and still work? Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Posted: 11/24/2014 10:37:08 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By sixnine:
Didn't make sense to It's an email about their rebuttal to the report from the oversight committee. As far as I could see none of that had anything to do with any current operations that could be compromised. There was no need for anything to be redacted from that email. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile DP = deliberative process. The Executive branch claims that internal communications that are used to develop a response to a query from another branch is protected information. I don't necessarily disagree, and the email I posted strikes me as something that would actually be covered. |
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MT, USA
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Posted: 11/24/2014 11:25:54 AM EDT
[Last Edit: hugh1]
[#14]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Debaser:
I would love to see Holder's redacted reply to this one: http://i1294.photobucket.com/albums/b617/DebasAR/Capture2_zpse0a90396.png They don't even redact the same email the same way in separate files: http://i1294.photobucket.com/albums/b617/DebasAR/Capture3_zps6e22494e.png Edit: It may not have been a email but part of a log. |
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Posted: 12/1/2014 3:51:21 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By miker84:
<a href="http://s588.photobucket.com/user/miker84/media/FF/Capture_zps747b69a9.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i588.photobucket.com/albums/ss328/miker84/FF/Capture_zps747b69a9.jpg</a> Translation: Hey Tracy, you don't have to worry about me I'm a team player. I just was asked by one of my "bosses" to ask the uncomfortable F&F question, but you'll hear nothing from me on it anymore, as I'm working on the Iranian plot (hint hint-could you throw me a bone there BTW, I have deadlines and such). Her response is to steer him to washed up political hacks from the Clinton years like Jamie Gorelick and Larry Thompson. The pettiness of these senior staffers reads like a teenage girls' note writing in class. Tracy Schmaler 
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Posted: 12/1/2014 4:49:11 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By sixnine:
There has to be ITAR violations, unless Madame Skanketary authorized the export of the weapons which still spells "shitstorm". Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By sixnine:
Originally Posted By TX_M1:
Originally Posted By Markypie:
Do the reporters in D.C. other than Sharyl Attkisson, get two paychecks? One from work, one from the administration? CNN probably keeps all the money. For those that missed this before CNN is paid by foreign and domestic Government agencies for specific content. Originally Posted By sixnine:
They were trying to run the clock out but I think that they overshot it. I see this dragging on until 0bama is out and there is no shield for these fuckers. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile They were probably counting on keeping the Senate. Hopefully it will sink Hillary. I find it interesting that there is not a single ITAR violation despite the numerous Fast and Furious weapons found in Mexico, why was Hillary Clinton not pushing DOJ for prosecution of ITAR violations? There has to be ITAR violations, unless Madame Skanketary authorized the export of the weapons which still spells "shitstorm". Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Yeah, except Commerce does ITAR approvals, as I recall, so as much as we'd like to pin another thing on Granny Clinton... |
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WI, USA
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Posted: 12/1/2014 5:12:00 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By LRRPF52:
Translation: Hey Tracy, you don't have to worry about me I'm a team player. I just was asked by one of my "bosses" to ask the uncomfortable F&F question, but you'll hear nothing from me on it anymore, as I'm working on the Iranian plot (hint hint-could you throw me a bone there BTW, I have deadlines and such). Her response is to steer him to washed up political hacks from the Clinton years like Jamie Gorelick and Larry Thompson. The pettiness of these senior staffers reads like a teenage girls' note writing in class. Tracy Schmaler https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/3477420554/69902384570dab0a004b1c27814d7bb7.jpeg Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By LRRPF52:
Originally Posted By miker84:
<a href="http://s588.photobucket.com/user/miker84/media/FF/Capture_zps747b69a9.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i588.photobucket.com/albums/ss328/miker84/FF/Capture_zps747b69a9.jpg</a> Translation: Hey Tracy, you don't have to worry about me I'm a team player. I just was asked by one of my "bosses" to ask the uncomfortable F&F question, but you'll hear nothing from me on it anymore, as I'm working on the Iranian plot (hint hint-could you throw me a bone there BTW, I have deadlines and such). Her response is to steer him to washed up political hacks from the Clinton years like Jamie Gorelick and Larry Thompson. The pettiness of these senior staffers reads like a teenage girls' note writing in class. Tracy Schmaler https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/3477420554/69902384570dab0a004b1c27814d7bb7.jpeg Some great reading in here. But seriously 52, I can't help myself... With that "Come Hither" look in her eyes, & the Pearl Necklace. To coincidental. OK, back to important stuff. |
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Posted: 12/1/2014 10:07:34 AM EDT
[#18]
Who does "DP" stand for on the redactions?
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Posted: 12/1/2014 10:10:30 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Leisure_Shoot:
Who does "DP" stand for on the redactions? Deliberative Process. |
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Posted: 12/1/2014 10:11:52 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Leisure_Shoot: Who does "DP" stand for on the redactions? |
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Posted: 12/1/2014 10:41:26 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Dilbert_556:
SimonPhoto already answered that question: "DP = deliberative process.". Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Dilbert_556:
Originally Posted By Leisure_Shoot:
Who does "DP" stand for on the redactions? Yep. And before someone asks, DPP = "Deliberative Process Privilege" |
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Posted: 12/1/2014 10:57:54 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By NoloContendere:
http://www.judicialwatch.org/ff/ May want to pull these in case they are taken down. Start searching. Anything interesting, please post. Can we get these filed into one big PDF that can be searched? If you do, can you put them on a file sharing site so they can all be downloaded easier than the linked site? |
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Posted: 12/1/2014 12:23:44 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By JIMBEAM: If you do, can you put them on a file sharing site so they can all be downloaded easier than the linked site? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By JIMBEAM: Originally Posted By NoloContendere: http://www.judicialwatch.org/ff/ May want to pull these in case they are taken down. Start searching. Anything interesting, please post. Can we get these filed into one big PDF that can be searched? If you do, can you put them on a file sharing site so they can all be downloaded easier than the linked site? |
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Posted: 12/1/2014 12:29:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: sixnine]
[#24]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Mariner82:
Yeah, except Commerce does ITAR approvals, as I recall, so as much as we'd like to pin another thing on Granny Clinton... Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Mariner82:
Originally Posted By sixnine:
Originally Posted By TX_M1:
Originally Posted By Markypie:
Do the reporters in D.C. other than Sharyl Attkisson, get two paychecks? One from work, one from the administration? CNN probably keeps all the money. For those that missed this before CNN is paid by foreign and domestic Government agencies for specific content. Originally Posted By sixnine:
They were trying to run the clock out but I think that they overshot it. I see this dragging on until 0bama is out and there is no shield for these fuckers. They were probably counting on keeping the Senate. Hopefully it will sink Hillary. I find it interesting that there is not a single ITAR violation despite the numerous Fast and Furious weapons found in Mexico, why was Hillary Clinton not pushing DOJ for prosecution of ITAR violations? There has to be ITAR violations, unless Madame Skanketary authorized the export of the weapons which still spells "shitstorm". Yeah, except Commerce does ITAR approvals, as I recall, so as much as we'd like to pin another thing on Granny Clinton... That's a shame if she had nothing to do with it. And anybody from Commerce should get proportionally fucked if they were involved. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Posted: 12/1/2014 2:07:46 PM EDT
[Last Edit: i_tell_you_what]
[#25]
Both of these downloads are compressed with 7z. If you don't have 7-zip installed already it's an excellent and 100% free compression tool (also supports zip, rar, other stuff). |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 12/4/2014 12:27:19 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By sixnine:
That's a shame if she had nothing to do with it. And anybody from Commerce should get proportionally fucked if they were involved. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By sixnine:
Originally Posted By Mariner82:
Originally Posted By sixnine:
There has to be ITAR violations, unless Madame Skanketary authorized the export of the weapons which still spells "shitstorm". Yeah, except Commerce does ITAR approvals, as I recall, so as much as we'd like to pin another thing on Granny Clinton... That's a shame if she had nothing to do with it. And anybody from Commerce should get proportionally fucked if they were involved. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile It is a shame that we can figure this out, and not a single inspector general or member of Congress seems to have caught on to that fact. Blackwater gets millions of dollars in fines for ITAR violations, that were made while servicing US government contracts at that. Yet numerous Fast and Furious guns end up in Mexico, and not a single ITAR prosecution seems to have been made. Not one. Why not? So were they approved by the US government or not? Has nay FOIA request been made in that regard? |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 12/4/2014 12:30:26 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By amd_dude:
Both of these downloads are compressed with 7z. If you don't have 7-zip installed already it's an excellent and 100% free compression tool (also supports zip, rar, other stuff). Combined PDF: https://mega.co.nz/#!jxYHmBhK!j-FLWhMNlaXTaadgGJieMej-NnZCNnNHqRjuLQ8WMQE Individual PDFs: https://mega.co.nz/#!DsQzFaqB!K1EF2p9Pn-MEKMe0ui8BgGzc7ckyJz_scOrdz2DQgKM Thanks, that will be a big help in searching. |
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Posted: 12/8/2014 8:35:10 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TX_M1:
It is a shame that we can figure this out, and not a single inspector general or member of Congress seems to have caught on to that fact. Blackwater gets millions of dollars in fines for ITAR violations, that were made while servicing US government contracts at that. Yet numerous Fast and Furious guns end up in Mexico, and not a single ITAR prosecution seems to have been made. Not one. Why not? So were they approved by the US government or not? Has nay FOIA request been made in that regard? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TX_M1:
Originally Posted By sixnine:
Originally Posted By Mariner82:
Originally Posted By sixnine:
There has to be ITAR violations, unless Madame Skanketary authorized the export of the weapons which still spells "shitstorm". Yeah, except Commerce does ITAR approvals, as I recall, so as much as we'd like to pin another thing on Granny Clinton... That's a shame if she had nothing to do with it. And anybody from Commerce should get proportionally fucked if they were involved. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile It is a shame that we can figure this out, and not a single inspector general or member of Congress seems to have caught on to that fact. Blackwater gets millions of dollars in fines for ITAR violations, that were made while servicing US government contracts at that. Yet numerous Fast and Furious guns end up in Mexico, and not a single ITAR prosecution seems to have been made. Not one. Why not? So were they approved by the US government or not? Has nay FOIA request been made in that regard? I've been asking this from the start. Was any coordination between main Justice and State made regarding ITAR. In this thread, there's an article about one of the journalists who contacted State at the time, and he was told he was on Hillary's sh*t list for it, including his personal safety being in jeopardy. |
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Posted: 12/9/2014 2:39:28 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By LRRPF52:
I've been asking this from the start. Was any coordination between main Justice and State made regarding ITAR. In this thread, there's an article about one of the journalists who contacted State at the time, and he was told he was on Hillary's sh*t list for it, including his personal safety being in jeopardy. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By LRRPF52:
Originally Posted By TX_M1:
Originally Posted By sixnine:
Originally Posted By Mariner82:
Originally Posted By sixnine:
There has to be ITAR violations, unless Madame Skanketary authorized the export of the weapons which still spells "shitstorm". Yeah, except Commerce does ITAR approvals, as I recall, so as much as we'd like to pin another thing on Granny Clinton... That's a shame if she had nothing to do with it. And anybody from Commerce should get proportionally fucked if they were involved. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile It is a shame that we can figure this out, and not a single inspector general or member of Congress seems to have caught on to that fact. Blackwater gets millions of dollars in fines for ITAR violations, that were made while servicing US government contracts at that. Yet numerous Fast and Furious guns end up in Mexico, and not a single ITAR prosecution seems to have been made. Not one. Why not? So were they approved by the US government or not? Has nay FOIA request been made in that regard? I've been asking this from the start. Was any coordination between main Justice and State made regarding ITAR. In this thread, there's an article about one of the journalists who contacted State at the time, and he was told he was on Hillary's sh*t list for it, including his personal safety being in jeopardy. With that cunt he could be on the shit list for asking about any involvement even if she was clear of any involvement. She's a bitch about any perceived slight. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Posted: 12/14/2014 12:36:10 PM EDT
[#30]
Here we are 4 years later.
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Posted: 12/14/2014 12:47:21 PM EDT
[#31]
4 years of me learning not to trust the government. It's made me question Waco and Ruby Ridge and open my eyes to see a government that has been working against the people and not for them.
Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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MT, USA
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Posted: 12/15/2014 1:01:17 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By sixnine:
4 years of me learning not to trust the government. It's made me question Waco and Ruby Ridge and open my eyes to see a government that has been working against the people and not for them. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Posted: 12/15/2014 8:29:20 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Willz]
[#33]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By hugh1:
What scares me more than what happened in F&F is that the republicans seem to care almost as little as the democrats. Leaving one to ponder the thought that "What difference does it make"? And is it time for good men to stand and fight? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By hugh1:
Originally Posted By sixnine:
4 years of me learning not to trust the government. It's made me question Waco and Ruby Ridge and open my eyes to see a government that has been working against the people and not for them. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile When the very people elected to preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States of America don't care to do so and act only in their own interest, The people must make the changes necessary. We need and entire House of Trey Gowdys and Ted Cruz fighting for us. Where are all the good men? |
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Posted: 12/15/2014 9:32:50 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By LRRPF52:
I've been asking this from the start. Was any coordination between main Justice and State made regarding ITAR. In this thread, there's an article about one of the journalists who contacted State at the time, and he was told he was on Hillary's sh*t list for it, including his personal safety being in jeopardy. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By LRRPF52:
Originally Posted By TX_M1:
Originally Posted By sixnine:
Originally Posted By Mariner82:
Originally Posted By sixnine:
There has to be ITAR violations, unless Madame Skanketary authorized the export of the weapons which still spells "shitstorm". Yeah, except Commerce does ITAR approvals, as I recall, so as much as we'd like to pin another thing on Granny Clinton... That's a shame if she had nothing to do with it. And anybody from Commerce should get proportionally fucked if they were involved. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile It is a shame that we can figure this out, and not a single inspector general or member of Congress seems to have caught on to that fact. Blackwater gets millions of dollars in fines for ITAR violations, that were made while servicing US government contracts at that. Yet numerous Fast and Furious guns end up in Mexico, and not a single ITAR prosecution seems to have been made. Not one. Why not? So were they approved by the US government or not? Has nay FOIA request been made in that regard? I've been asking this from the start. Was any coordination between main Justice and State made regarding ITAR. In this thread, there's an article about one of the journalists who contacted State at the time, and he was told he was on Hillary's sh*t list for it, including his personal safety being in jeopardy. Waaay back, before we heard the name "Fast & Furious" (other than as a movie title), didn't Senator Grassley release a statement about his having looked into the claims (made by Obama and Hillary) that most of the guns found at crime scenes in Mexico were traced back to the US civilian market, and that his inquiries showed that the majority of the guns that actually were traced back to the US (turned out that most of the crime scene guns didn't trace back to the US), had left the US with State Department approval? |
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Posted: 12/15/2014 10:33:38 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By JPN:
Waaay back, before we heard the name "Fast & Furious" (other than as a movie title), didn't Senator Grassley release a statement about his having looked into the claims (made by Obama and Hillary) that most of the guns found at crime scenes in Mexico were traced back to the US civilian market, and that his inquiries showed that the majority of the guns that actually were traced back to the US (turned out that most of the crime scene guns didn't trace back to the US), had left the US with State Department approval? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By JPN:
Originally Posted By LRRPF52:
Originally Posted By TX_M1:
Originally Posted By sixnine:
Originally Posted By Mariner82:
[quote ]Originally Posted By sixnine: There has to be ITAR violations, unless Madame Skanketary authorized the export of the weapons which still spells "shitstorm".[/qu ote] Yeah, except Commerce does ITAR approvals, as I recall, so as much as we'd like to pin another thing on Granny Clinton... That's a shame if she had nothing to do with it. And anybody from Commerce should get proportionally fucked if they were involved. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile It is a shame that we can figure this out, and not a single inspector general or member of Congress seems to have caught on to that fact. Blackwater gets millions of dollars in fines for ITAR violations, that were made while servicing US government contracts at that. Yet numerous Fast and Furious guns end up in Mexico, and not a single ITAR prosecution seems to have been made. Not one. Why not? So were they approved by the US government or not? Has nay FOIA request been made in that regard? I've been asking this from the start. Was any coordination between main Justice and State made regarding ITAR. In this thread, there's an article about one of the journalists who contacted State at the time, and he was told he was on Hillary's sh*t list for it, including his personal safety being in jeopardy. Waaay back, before we heard the name "Fast & Furious" (other than as a movie title), didn't Senator Grassley release a statement about his having looked into the claims (made by Obama and Hillary) that most of the guns found at crime scenes in Mexico were traced back to the US civilian market, and that his inquiries showed that the majority of the guns that actually were traced back to the US (turned out that most of the crime scene guns didn't trace back to the US), had left the US with State Department approval? IIRC most of those weapons were sold directly to the Mexican FedGov and police forces. They then managed to find their way to the cartels. |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 12/16/2014 12:01:11 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By alphajaguars:
IIRC most of those weapons were sold directly to the Mexican FedGov and police forces. They then managed to find their way to the cartels. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By alphajaguars:
Originally Posted By JPN:
Waaay back, before we heard the name "Fast & Furious" (other than as a movie title), didn't Senator Grassley release a statement about his having looked into the claims (made by Obama and Hillary) that most of the guns found at crime scenes in Mexico were traced back to the US civilian market, and that his inquiries showed that the majority of the guns that actually were traced back to the US (turned out that most of the crime scene guns didn't trace back to the US), had left the US with State Department approval? IIRC most of those weapons were sold directly to the Mexican FedGov and police forces. They then managed to find their way to the cartels. This is what I remember, I also remember those direct government sales numbers being in the thousands per year. Cartels buying individual guns in the US with straw purchases and then smuggling them into Mexico would be a very inefficient process. Easier to obtain the guns that are already in Mexico. |
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Posted: 12/16/2014 12:16:43 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TX_M1:
This is what I remember, I also remember those direct government sales numbers being in the thousands per year. Cartels buying individual guns in the US with straw purchases and then smuggling them into Mexico would be a very inefficient process. Easier to obtain the guns that are already in Mexico. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TX_M1:
Originally Posted By alphajaguars:
Originally Posted By JPN:
Waaay back, before we heard the name "Fast & Furious" (other than as a movie title), didn't Senator Grassley release a statement about his having looked into the claims (made by Obama and Hillary) that most of the guns found at crime scenes in Mexico were traced back to the US civilian market, and that his inquiries showed that the majority of the guns that actually were traced back to the US (turned out that most of the crime scene guns didn't trace back to the US), had left the US with State Department approval? IIRC most of those weapons were sold directly to the Mexican FedGov and police forces. They then managed to find their way to the cartels. This is what I remember, I also remember those direct government sales numbers being in the thousands per year. Cartels buying individual guns in the US with straw purchases and then smuggling them into Mexico would be a very inefficient process. Easier to obtain the guns that are already in Mexico. Wasn't there some mention of a "private security company" in Mexico, that was buying some of those State Department approved exports? |
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Posted: 12/16/2014 8:04:35 AM EDT
[#38]
And an FFL in Mexico City?
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Posted: 12/16/2014 9:19:57 AM EDT
[#39]
Would be nice to see a breakdown on who bought what. Number and type of firearm, by each purchaser.
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Posted: 12/16/2014 9:33:43 AM EDT
[#40]
The number of direct gov to gov sales rose dramatically after 0bama took office.
Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Posted: 12/16/2014 9:49:46 AM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By sixnine:
The number of direct gov to gov sales rose dramatically after 0bama took office. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile If I recall correctly, they quit releasing the numbers after 2009 under Hillary. I think the last reported numbers of Cat I sales to Mexico was around 13k semiauto firearms, 121 full autos, and another 12k in other firearms. |
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VA, USA
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Posted: 12/16/2014 10:12:01 AM EDT
[Last Edit: broadrunarms]
[#42]
On potential ITAR violations involving the US Department of State either sanctioning the activity via an ITAR export permit or turning a blind eye to what was going on, or simply being utterly clueless, here are the facts about ITAR permits.
Semiautomatic firearms are covered under the ITAR reguations found in 22 CFR Part 121 as a Category I Munitions List item. See http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CFR-2012-title22-vol1/xml/CFR-2012-title22-vol1-sec121-1.xml Export of such items requires an ITAR permit under 22 CFR Part 123. See http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CFR-2012-title22-vol1/xml/CFR-2012-title22-vol1-part123.xml Such permits are ssued only by the US Department of State Directorate of Defense Trade Controls (DDTC) (the Department of Commerce is not the permit authority). See https://www.pmddtc.state.gov/index.html. DDTC could have: - issued permits for the exports - advised BATFE and/orUSDOJ that purely federal actions are exempt (key word is purely, if it in any way involves a non-federal entity, it is no longer exempt) - been utterly clueless (willfully or due to incompetence) about the exports. If there is no ITAR permit, however, someone should be getting prosecuted for ITAR violations, and thus far, that has NOT happened. I'd like to know why. I suspect it isn't happening because there is a whole nuther blivet out there lots of people want never to see the light of day, least of all in a courtroom with sworn testimony by federal officials who are political appointees. |
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Posted: 12/16/2014 10:46:20 AM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Mister_H:
If I recall correctly, they quit releasing the numbers after 2009 under Hillary. I think the last reported numbers of Cat I sales to Mexico was around 13k semiauto firearms, 121 full autos, and another 12k in other firearms. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Mister_H:
Originally Posted By sixnine:
The number of direct gov to gov sales rose dramatically after 0bama took office. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile If I recall correctly, they quit releasing the numbers after 2009 under Hillary. I think the last reported numbers of Cat I sales to Mexico was around 13k semiauto firearms, 121 full autos, and another 12k in other firearms. But what is the breakdown on where they went? How many went to the Mexican military? How many went to the Mexican federal police? How many went to Mexican local police agencies? How many went... somewhere else? Originally Posted By broadrunarms:
On potential ITAR violations involving the US Department of State either sanctioning the activity via an ITAR export permit or turning a blind eye to what was going on, or simply being utterly clueless, here are the facts about ITAR permits. Semiautomatic firearms are covered under the ITAR reguations found in 22 CFR Part 121 as a Category I Munitions List item. See http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CFR-2012-title22-vol1/xml/CFR-2012-title22-vol1-sec121-1.xml Export of such items requires an ITAR permit under 22 CFR Part 123. See http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CFR-2012-title22-vol1/xml/CFR-2012-title22-vol1-part123.xml Such permits are ssued only by the US Department of State Directorate of Defense Trade Controls (DDTC) (the Department of Commerce is not the permit authority). See https://www.pmddtc.state.gov/index.html. DDTC could have: - issued permits for the exports - advised BATFE and/orUSDOJ that purely federal actions are exempt (key word is purely, if it in any way involves a non-federal entity, it is no longer exempt) - been utterly clueless (willfully or due to incompetence) about the exports. If there is no ITAR permit, however, someone should be getting prosecuted for ITAR violations, and thus far, that has NOT happened. I'd like to know why. I suspect it isn't happening because there is a whole nuther blivet out there lots of people want never to see the light of day, least of all in a courtroom with sworn testimony by federal officials who are political appointees. Fairly early on, after Fast & Furious blew up, there was a cleanupATF post about an agent overhearing some supervisors talking about how the shit would really hit the fan, if people found out about the much bigger operation that had been running at the same time as F&F. There was also an article about a security consultant claiming that an airport in Texas was being used as a shipping point for guns, body armor, and various other "military hardware" that was bound for Mexico, but didn't seem to be going to the Mexican government. |
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MT, USA
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Posted: 12/16/2014 7:26:02 PM EDT
[Last Edit: hugh1]
[#44]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Mister_H:
If I recall correctly, they quit releasing the numbers after 2009 under Hillary. I think the last reported numbers of Cat I sales to Mexico was around 13k semiauto firearms, 121 full autos, and another 12k in other firearms. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Mister_H:
Originally Posted By sixnine:
The number of direct gov to gov sales rose dramatically after 0bama took office. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile If I recall correctly, they quit releasing the numbers after 2009 under Hillary. I think the last reported numbers of Cat I sales to Mexico was around 13k semiauto firearms, 121 full autos, and another 12k in other firearms. From memory, Last year of Bush,.............. 1,700 (guns) First year of Obama, ...........16,000 First 3 yrs of Obama,............69,000 I forget the details but in a meeting with BATFE someone in the press ask, "How many of the 69,000 guns got to the Mexican Government?" BATFE answered less than half. My math says that means that at least 34.500 weapons ended up in cartel hands. EDIT: This may be one of those rare cases where government was able to do better than the private sector in trade, as F&F could only manage to get about 2,600 guns into Mexico in the same time frame. |
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Posted: 12/16/2014 9:55:34 PM EDT
[#45]
There are also "rumors" of another ATF operation regarding converted AK47s the ATF converted and then purposefully "lost" in the united states. of course, those are just "rumors."
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Posted: 12/16/2014 10:26:58 PM EDT
[#46]
Blast from the past, 2009:
https://www.atf.gov/files/press/releases/2009/07/070909-testimony-breuer-hoover-placido.pdf See if you recognize any names. Congress has recently allocated an additional $25 million in support of Project
Gunrunner. These funds will allow ATF to open five new field offices staffed with special agents and IOIs. With these additional resources, ATF can identify and prioritize for inspection those FFLs with a history of noncompliance who represent a risk to public safety, as well as focus on primary retailers and pawnbrokers who sell the firearms of choice for drug cartels. When a firearm is traced, specific identifying information – including the make, model, and serial number – is entered into the ATF Firearms Tracing System (e-Trace), which is the only federal firearms tracing system. Using this information, ATF can establish the identity of the first retail purchaser of the firearm and then investigate how the gun came to be used in a crime or how it came to be located in Mexico. Furthermore, analyses of aggregate trace data can reveal trafficking trends and networks, showing where the guns are being purchased, who is purchasing them, and how they flow across the border. As a complement to the Mérida Initiative efforts, ATF received $4.5 million in asset forfeiture funds from Treasury’s Asset Forfeiture fund to initiate a Spanish version of ATF’s e-Trace to Mexico. |
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Posted: 12/23/2014 10:47:46 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Everrest]
[#47]
David Codrea: Order in Dobyns case highlights government motion that even confuses judge
A Monday order in the United States Court of Federal Claims by Judge Francis M. Allegra in the case of Jay Anthony Dobyns v. United States points to a motion by the government that has the judge demanding clarification. Noting it’s not even clear if a notice of appeal relates to a Federal Circuit Court order or to prior Federal Claims Court orders, Judge Allegra ordered the government “on or before January 5, 2015 [to] file [an explanatory] memorandum (not to exceed 30 pages)."
The judge then gave plaintiff Dobyns until January 12 to file a response to that memorandum. He also ordered, in bold type for emphasis, “The court will not permit any enlargements of these deadlines for any reason.” That order, per Dobyns on his website, “set the stage for what 2015 will hold.” He also made it clear that much remains unknown. ...snip... “DOJ and ATF tried their best and worst to defend their corruption,” Dobyns noted in November. That remark preceded his announcement that "Judge Allegra published an order announcing that he has voided his judgment in the case!” “Don’t form conclusions just yet because so much of what has taken place behind the scenes is not fully exposed or understandable,” Dobyns cautioned supporters about Monday’s development. “Additional proceedings will reveal that. Trust that justice is being served. My battle is not close to being over.” |
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Posted: 12/25/2014 1:49:38 PM EDT
[#48]
SharylAttkisson: Belatedly Released and Revealing Fast & Furious Docs
The Department of Justice improperly withheld public documents related to Fast and Furious after the first Freedom of Information (FOI) requests for them several years ago. The agency was recently forced to produce some of the materials to the conservative watchdog group Judicial Watch, which filed a FOI lawsuit to obtain the information. (To date, the Justice Department still has not complied with FOI law in providing the same public documents to me as a FOI requestor.)
Fortunately, Judicial Watch has posted the documents for public review. The Justice Department is still withholding thousands of documents. The thousands of documents provided are often heavily redacted. A review of hundreds of pages so far has revealed no obvious, legitimate basis under which President Obama should have invoked executive privilege, as he did, to withhold them public from congressional subpoena and other public reviews. Clues as to why President Obama and Attorney General Eric Holder kept the public documents secret for so long may be found in one 60-page release examined below. Nearly three years after-the-fact, its news value is diminished. If these documents had been turned over when Congress subpoenaed them or when they were first requested under FOI law, they would have revealed damaging information in the lead-up to President Obama’s re-election in 2012. By exerting executive privilege, the President and Holder kept them hidden until the court challenge forced their release. 60-page release DOJ-FF-02968 DOJ-FF-03027.PDF |
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Posted: 12/26/2014 2:14:40 PM EDT
[#49]
These guys are so incompetent, it's beyond ridiculous already:
Until recently drug traffickers' "weapon of choice" had been .38 caliber
handguns. However, they now have developed a preference for more powerful weapons, such as the .233 semi-automatic rifle, the AK-47 variant rifle, 5.57 caliber pistols, and .50 caliber rifles; ATF has seized each of these types of weapons as those weapons en route to Mexico. You would think they could get basic details right, about which they are self-claimed experts. It's as if they are populated by hordes of organized crime syndicate no-show employees who pop up when they are prodded by Congress, but know in the end nothing will be done about their blatant illegal activities because of the criminal nature of the political class. They can't use the English language correctly either. The most damning thing about this 60 page document right off the bat is the fact that Project Gunrunner was from DOJ Main, and is recognized as an ATF program, which we knew already back on the first pages of the thread. |
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MT, USA
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Posted: 12/27/2014 2:13:15 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By LRRPF52:
These guys are so incompetent, it's beyond ridiculous already: You would think they could get basic details right, about which they are self-claimed experts. It's as if they are populated by hordes of organized crime syndicate no-show employees who pop up when they are prodded by Congress, but know in the end nothing will be done about their blatant illegal activities because of the criminal nature of the political class. They can't use the English language correctly either. The most damning thing about this 60 page document right off the bat is the fact that Project Gunrunner was from DOJ Main, and is recognized as an ATF program, which we knew already back on the first pages of the thread. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By LRRPF52:
These guys are so incompetent, it's beyond ridiculous already: Until recently drug traffickers' "weapon of choice" had been .38 caliber
handguns. However, they now have developed a preference for more powerful weapons, such as the .233 semi-automatic rifle, the AK-47 variant rifle, 5.57 caliber pistols, and .50 caliber rifles; ATF has seized each of these types of weapons as those weapons en route to Mexico. You would think they could get basic details right, about which they are self-claimed experts. It's as if they are populated by hordes of organized crime syndicate no-show employees who pop up when they are prodded by Congress, but know in the end nothing will be done about their blatant illegal activities because of the criminal nature of the political class. They can't use the English language correctly either. The most damning thing about this 60 page document right off the bat is the fact that Project Gunrunner was from DOJ Main, and is recognized as an ATF program, which we knew already back on the first pages of the thread. |
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