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 miker84
Nobilis Est Ira Leonis
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Joined: Nov 2009  MS, USA
 Posts: 1432 Feedback: 100% (13) Link To This Post |
Posted: 6/23/2012 10:17:19 AM
[Last Edit: 6/23/2012 10:18:14 AM by miker84]
I keep thinking about that Situation Room photo and the security leaks story. It seems that everyone in the President's circle apparently is involved in (or aware of) every decision that is made in the White House. Maybe the documents list all the names of people on emails and it goes beyond the President, advisors and Holder......maybe to DNC strategists, media, lobbyists, foreigners, etc. Maybe the President isn't just trying to protect himself and Holder, but an entire network of traitors or moles.
....just a thought as I sit here drinking weapons-grade coffee and preparing my tinfoil hat for the day.. 
Edit...dang, yet another page ownage that I failed to nail. |
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Posted: 6/23/2012 10:18:21 AM
Originally Posted By Panta_Rei:
Originally Posted By SnoopisTDI:
Originally Posted By RocketmanOU:
Originally Posted By Rogue-Sasquatch:
Originally Posted By RarestRX:
Good take down of the stupid "Bush did it too!" meme the dems are trying to push: http://drawandstrike.blogspot.com/2012/06/stupid-new-liberal-talking-point-obamas.html http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-QcKzjTd6aws/T-O7BOVWo2I/AAAAAAAAA4k/10sdx6a6oUQ/s640/f+and+f+vs+wide+receiver+fixed.jpg Let's make sure we get our facts 100% right so we don't hurt our credibility when we use this argument. Guns DID cross the border under Wide Receiver. It's not accurate or honest to say that zero guns entered Mexico as part of Wide Receiver. The difference is that it was never intended for them to leave control of either ATF or the Mexican authorities; custody was supposed to exist from beginning to end. As soon as that failed, Wide Receiver was stopped. With Fast & Furious, it was never intended for there to BE custody of the weapons. They were supposed to be "in the wild" from the very start. And, since that was the desired result of the operation, Fast & Furious continued while guns were crossing the border out of the custody of ATF. I dropped a message to the blogger saying precisely this, asking them to update the graphic. Doesn't walking imply they intentionally let them go? If walking is releasing them "in the wild" then Wide Receiver didn't to that. They tracked them, but failed and the guns got away. Not the same as letting them "walk." The graphic could definitely use a clarification, but I do think it is technically correct. Some will use semantics to distort the story. Wide Receiver though flawed was designed to maintain accountibility/tracking of a small number of weapons. F&F did not have these measures in place, did not have coordination with the Mexican gov, and significantly increased the # of guns that could freely go to cartels. I wouldn't spend time defending Wide Receiver, just use words carefully and stick to the facts. Wide Receiver was shut down, and declared to be a failure, because it was determined that the measures taken to prevent the guns being "lost" on the Mexican side of the border were not working. The Fast & Furious solution to the problem of the failure of Wide Receiver? Don't even try to keep the guns from getting "lost", and even order angry (angry over the orders they were given) BATF field agents to intentionally "lose" guns. |
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Posted: 6/23/2012 10:52:51 AM
Originally Posted By bc5000:
Originally Posted By Rogue-Sasquatch:
Originally Posted By RarestRX:
Good take down of the stupid "Bush did it too!" meme the dems are trying to push: http://drawandstrike.blogspot.com/2012/06/stupid-new-liberal-talking-point-obamas.html http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-QcKzjTd6aws/T-O7BOVWo2I/AAAAAAAAA4k/10sdx6a6oUQ/s640/f+and+f+vs+wide+receiver+fixed.jpg Let's make sure we get our facts 100% right so we don't hurt our credibility when we use this argument. Guns DID cross the border under Wide Receiver. It's not accurate or honest to say that zero guns entered Mexico as part of Wide Receiver. The difference is that it was never intended for them to leave control of either ATF or the Mexican authorities; custody was supposed to exist from beginning to end. As soon as that failed, Wide Receiver was stopped. With Fast & Furious, it was never intended for there to BE custody of the weapons. They were supposed to be "in the wild" from the very start. And, since that was the desired result of the operation, Fast & Furious continued while guns were crossing the border out of the custody of ATF. In other words it was "botched".
If you botch something, then try it again with fewer controls and on a larger scale, that second time? Not a botch. |
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Posted: 6/23/2012 10:59:42 AM
Not sure if we're linked to this from an earlier page ...we are now.
http://www.examiner.com/article/blogger-vanderboegh-reports-gunwalker-link-to-obama-s-tough-guy-advisor |
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Posted: 6/23/2012 11:03:51 AM
Insane. Doing the same thing the same way every time and expecting a
different outcome. In WR, RFI tags on the guns were working, but it was determined they were being removed and left on our side of the fence, right ? |
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polymer4me
A sinner saved by Grace
Team Member
Joined: May 2011 USA
Posts: 1083 Feedback: 0% (0) Link To This Post |
Posted: 6/23/2012 11:04:01 AM
Originally Posted By Kevyn:
Originally Posted By Everrest:
Looks like we won't be getting it from him. CBSNews: W.H.: Ex-staffer can't be questioned on Fast and Furious (CBS News) The White House said a former National Security staffer who communicated with ATF's Special Agent in charge of "Fast and Furious" cannot be interviewed by Congressional investigators.
More at link.The ATF Special Agent, Bill Newell, testified to Congress in July 2011 that he's a longtime friend with then-White House National Security Staffer Kevin O'Reilly. The two emailed and talked on the phone during the controversial Fast and Furious gunwalking operation, according to documents and Newell's testimony to Congress. In one email exchange about Fast and Furious on Feb. 11, 2011 O'Reilly asked Newell, "Would ATF be willing to put you or others in front of US media that gets pickup in Mexico (CNN en Espanol, perhaps) to tell this story?" At the time, the Justice Department and ATF were denying any gunwalking had occurred, and were looking for ways to promote stories about gun traffickers buying weapons in the U.S. and taking them to Mexico. "Kevin as we discussed last night," answered Newell, "these are some examples of what we could get translated and use in the Mexican media . . . The 'Fast and Furious' indictment is listed under 'U.S. v Avila.'" The two also emailed about the case in July 2010, exchanging anecdotes and photographs of gun seizures in the case. Kevin O'reilly emails (PDF) Ok, this has really been bothering me. "The WH says ...(O'Reilly)cannot be interviewed by congressional investigators? What's the legal precedent for this denial? If O'Reilly was served with a congressional subpoena why wouldn't he have to appear? If O'Reilly was served a subpoena from a civil court would he have to appear in civil court with legal representation to answer the subpoena? How can the WH/Barry Soetoro just declare that the congressional investigators cannot question O'Reilly? HOW does he become "off limits" to investigators? WHAT IS the protection he's been granted? From the hotlink: However, White House Counsel Kathryn Ruemmler said O'Reilly will not be made available.
"(N)one of these limited communications between Mr. O'Reilly and Mr. Newell revealed the existence of any of the inappropriate investigative tactics at issue in your inquiry, let alone any decision to allow guns to 'walk,'" wrote Ruemmler in a letter to the offices of Rep. Darrell Issa (R-Calif.) and Sen. Charles Grassley (R-Iowa). Citing Executive Branch confidentiality interests, Ruemmler said, "There is an insufficient basis to support the request to interview Mr. O'Reilly." With a DOJ IG investigation underway and a congressional investigation, one would think that O'Reilly would be within the bounds of either investigation ...maybe he's already been questioned by the DOJ IG and they don't want the congressional investigators to learn what he knows? That would be my guess too. |
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polymer4me
A sinner saved by Grace
Team Member
Joined: May 2011 USA
Posts: 1084 Feedback: 0% (0) Link To This Post |
Posted: 6/23/2012 11:06:43 AM
[Last Edit: 6/23/2012 11:08:35 AM by polymer4me]
Originally Posted By Lumpy03:
Insane. Doing the same thing the same way every time and expecting a different outcome. In WR, RFI tags on the guns were working, but it was determined they were being removed and left on our side of the fence, being shipped to Mexico At least that's the way I understood it. ETA - and it was at that point the operation was stopped. |
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Posted: 6/23/2012 11:10:14 AM
O'Reilly has been directed by WH counsel not to talk to investigators ...per the Sipsey Street reporting.
Now, this leads me to believe that there's a big possibility of federal statute violations somewhere along this road. O'Reilly, under oath, could just plead his Fifth Amendment rights. But, his private conversations/emails are already on record. Could he be identified as a co-conspirator or accessory to criminal conduct? Could O'Reilly be indictable? |
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Posted: 6/23/2012 11:12:40 AM
President Obama's most brilliant plain.
Some would call it botched, some say it went wrong, but they would be wrong. This brilliantly conceived plan was going as scripted until a inconvenient death that of BPA Brian Terry. Some believe that AG Holder had the brain power and intellect to conceive such a brilliant plan, but nothing could be more untrue. A plan of this complexity and scope could only have come from the most intellectually capable man in the world one with a Noble Peace prize, one that knows how to have peace, yes it was President Obama who conceived and put into place Operation Fast And Furious. But to understand the scope of things, one needs to look further. Not just at Fast and Furious but Operation Castaway, Direct Government Sales and AG Holders propaganda campaign against gun ownership. To understand the true scope of what this brilliance bough one need only look at the numbers. Fast and Furious................302 Murdered and the number will surely climb, 300+ Mexicans and 2 US people. Operation Castaway..........???? Murders unknown to general public but there are surly some Direct Govern. Sales..........4,000 and the number will unquestionable go higher. Over half of the weapons went to cartels. (This figure is a calculation bases on %'s in Fast and Furious.) Total ............................4,302 Minimum dead "Well, let me be clear on this" If the left wants to sale the story that he is the most intellectual Brilliant man in the world, then my humble intellect tells me that he is perhaps the most evil man in the world. 
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Posted: 6/23/2012 11:13:16 AM
Originally Posted By polymer4me:
Originally Posted By Lumpy03:
Insane. Doing the same thing the same way every time and expecting a different outcome. In WR, RFI tags on the guns were working, but it was determined they were being removed and left on our side of the fence, being shipped to Mexico At least that's the way I understood it. ETA - and it was at that point the operation was stopped. I think one of the whistleblowers testified that the guns were being taken to houses near the border and left there for four or five days, allowing time for the batteries in any transmitters to die, before continuing to the cartels. |
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Posted: 6/23/2012 11:20:44 AM
No, as stated earlier in this thread, the conditions that made WR a failure were EXACTLY the conditions that F&F was designed to create.
Originally Posted By bc5000:
Originally Posted By Rogue-Sasquatch:
Originally Posted By RarestRX:
Good take down of the stupid "Bush did it too!" meme the dems are trying to push: http://drawandstrike.blogspot.com/2012/06/stupid-new-liberal-talking-point-obamas.html http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-QcKzjTd6aws/T-O7BOVWo2I/AAAAAAAAA4k/10sdx6a6oUQ/s640/f+and+f+vs+wide+receiver+fixed.jpg Let's make sure we get our facts 100% right so we don't hurt our credibility when we use this argument. Guns DID cross the border under Wide Receiver. It's not accurate or honest to say that zero guns entered Mexico as part of Wide Receiver. The difference is that it was never intended for them to leave control of either ATF or the Mexican authorities; custody was supposed to exist from beginning to end. As soon as that failed, Wide Receiver was stopped. With Fast & Furious, it was never intended for there to BE custody of the weapons. They were supposed to be "in the wild" from the very start. And, since that was the desired result of the operation, Fast & Furious continued while guns were crossing the border out of the custody of ATF. In other words it was "botched".
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Posted: 6/23/2012 11:26:07 AM
Originally Posted By lilMAC25:
No, as stated earlier in this thread, the conditions that made WR a failure were EXACTLY the conditions that F&F was designed to create. Originally Posted By bc5000:
Originally Posted By Rogue-Sasquatch:
Originally Posted By RarestRX:
Good take down of the stupid "Bush did it too!" meme the dems are trying to push: http://drawandstrike.blogspot.com/2012/06/stupid-new-liberal-talking-point-obamas.html http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-QcKzjTd6aws/T-O7BOVWo2I/AAAAAAAAA4k/10sdx6a6oUQ/s640/f+and+f+vs+wide+receiver+fixed.jpg Let's make sure we get our facts 100% right so we don't hurt our credibility when we use this argument. Guns DID cross the border under Wide Receiver. It's not accurate or honest to say that zero guns entered Mexico as part of Wide Receiver. The difference is that it was never intended for them to leave control of either ATF or the Mexican authorities; custody was supposed to exist from beginning to end. As soon as that failed, Wide Receiver was stopped. With Fast & Furious, it was never intended for there to BE custody of the weapons. They were supposed to be "in the wild" from the very start. And, since that was the desired result of the operation, Fast & Furious continued while guns were crossing the border out of the custody of ATF. In other words it was "botched".
You, Sir Are Hereby Awarded All The Internetz. |
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Jacketch
Resident Techno-pastoralist©
Team Member
Joined: Mar 2003 VA, USA
Posts: 9670 Feedback: 100% (3) Link To This Post |
Posted: 6/23/2012 12:00:06 PM
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Frog_Legs
Tactical Blocking Dummy
Life Member
Joined: Jun 2001 AR, USA
Posts: 1148 Feedback: 100% (1) Link To This Post |
Posted: 6/23/2012 12:06:09 PM
[Last Edit: 6/23/2012 12:08:14 PM by Frog_Legs]
ETA: I has the power....
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Posted: 6/23/2012 12:12:16 PM
Originally Posted By Jacketch:
Bill Whittle destroys the "botched" claim Bill Whittle on F&F Needs embeded. Good vid. Thanks. |
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niteghost
Member
Team Member
Joined: Dec 2010 MS, USA
Posts: 1396 Feedback: 100% (6) Link To This Post |
Posted: 6/23/2012 12:24:12 PM
So where is the IG report?
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Hedonist
Keep shooting, my friends...
Life Member
Joined: Feb 2004 USA
Posts: 22229 Feedback: 100% (4) Link To This Post |
Posted: 6/23/2012 12:25:27 PM
So is that where the donated money for a Crowder F&F video went, into Whittle's PJTV video?
Crowder is part of PJTV, right? Good video - now how do you get liberals to watch it? For us, it's just confirmation of what we've suspected, and raises the blood pressure. The part at the end about racism is true - libs think those killed "were only Mexicans" - if they were Graphic Artists from San Francisco they might actually care... but... they were just Mexicans. |
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Posted: 6/23/2012 12:34:44 PM
[Last Edit: 6/23/2012 12:36:18 PM by Kevyn]
Originally Posted By niteghost:
So where is the IG report? Still an 'on-going' investigation? Wait ...does Barry's claim for EP on those document affect the IG's ability to view the documents? |
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Posted: 6/23/2012 12:35:51 PM
Originally Posted By Hedonist:
So is that where the donated money for a Crowder F&F video went, into Whittle's PJTV video? Where are you getting that from? |
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Posted: 6/23/2012 12:44:38 PM
[Last Edit: 6/23/2012 12:45:09 PM by sbhaven]
On Book TV After Words program this weekend, Katie Pavlich will be interviewed by Major Garrett from the National Journal about her book; "Fast and Furious: Barack Obama's Bloodiest Scandal and Its Shameless Cover-Up".
Interview/discussion will air on CSPAN2 on: Saturday, June 23rd at 10pm (ET) Sunday, June 24th at 9pm (ET) Monday, June 25th at 12am (ET) Monday, June 25th at 3am (ET) Sunday, July 1st at 11am (ET) After Words: Katie Pavlich, "Fast and Furious: Barack Obama's Bloodiest Scandal and Its Shameless Cover-Up," hosted by Major Garrett, National Journal Doubt it will be live though as these interviews are usually taped. May take a few days or weeks before video is up for streaming. Should be an interesting interview. With Garrett doing the questioning it shouldn't be a hit piece like the Jonathan Alter interview of Dinesh D'Souza was. |
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Posted: 6/23/2012 1:37:04 PM
[Last Edit: 6/23/2012 1:38:27 PM by lilMAC25]
Hell yeah!
Where can I cash that in for sluts, ammo and guns? Originally Posted By Lumpy03:
Originally Posted By lilMAC25:
No, as stated earlier in this thread, the conditions that made WR a failure were EXACTLY the conditions that F&F was designed to create. Originally Posted By bc5000:
Originally Posted By Rogue-Sasquatch:
Originally Posted By RarestRX:
Good take down of the stupid "Bush did it too!" meme the dems are trying to push: http://drawandstrike.blogspot.com/2012/06/stupid-new-liberal-talking-point-obamas.html http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-QcKzjTd6aws/T-O7BOVWo2I/AAAAAAAAA4k/10sdx6a6oUQ/s640/f+and+f+vs+wide+receiver+fixed.jpg Let's make sure we get our facts 100% right so we don't hurt our credibility when we use this argument. Guns DID cross the border under Wide Receiver. It's not accurate or honest to say that zero guns entered Mexico as part of Wide Receiver. The difference is that it was never intended for them to leave control of either ATF or the Mexican authorities; custody was supposed to exist from beginning to end. As soon as that failed, Wide Receiver was stopped. With Fast & Furious, it was never intended for there to BE custody of the weapons. They were supposed to be "in the wild" from the very start. And, since that was the desired result of the operation, Fast & Furious continued while guns were crossing the border out of the custody of ATF. In other words it was "botched".
You, Sir Are Hereby Awarded All The Internetz. |
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Posted: 6/23/2012 1:42:01 PM
Juan Williams is no longer open minded. I saw one interview today where he was basing his argument on info from Jay Carney.
The Five 6-22 - Juan Williams Arrrgghhh. |
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Posted: 6/23/2012 1:47:51 PM
Originally Posted By lilMAC25:
Hell yeah! Where can I cash that in for sluts, ammo and guns? Originally Posted By Lumpy03:
Originally Posted By lilMAC25:
No, as stated earlier in this thread, the conditions that made WR a failure were EXACTLY the conditions that F&F was designed to create. Originally Posted By bc5000:
Originally Posted By Rogue-Sasquatch:
Originally Posted By RarestRX:
Good take down of the stupid "Bush did it too!" meme the dems are trying to push: http://drawandstrike.blogspot.com/2012/06/stupid-new-liberal-talking-point-obamas.html http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-QcKzjTd6aws/T-O7BOVWo2I/AAAAAAAAA4k/10sdx6a6oUQ/s640/f+and+f+vs+wide+receiver+fixed.jpg Let's make sure we get our facts 100% right so we don't hurt our credibility when we use this argument. Guns DID cross the border under Wide Receiver. It's not accurate or honest to say that zero guns entered Mexico as part of Wide Receiver. The difference is that it was never intended for them to leave control of either ATF or the Mexican authorities; custody was supposed to exist from beginning to end. As soon as that failed, Wide Receiver was stopped. With Fast & Furious, it was never intended for there to BE custody of the weapons. They were supposed to be "in the wild" from the very start. And, since that was the desired result of the operation, Fast & Furious continued while guns were crossing the border out of the custody of ATF. In other words it was "botched".
You, Sir Are Hereby Awarded All The Internetz. Regretably, Sir, even though the AWARD OF THE INTERNETZ IS UMLIMITED IN ITS SCOPE AND In Perpetuity, it is redeemable by ony you, IN PERSON, in Ciudad Juarez, Nuevo Laredo, or Villa Acuna. (or 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue !! 
Pack your bags, and take HEAVY BACKUP. |
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Posted: 6/23/2012 1:49:43 PM
[Last Edit: 6/23/2012 1:51:12 PM by JAGERBOMBER]
the dike maddow's hit piece on vanderboegh and issa. so full of fuck it will hurt your brain-
snip- The whole mess, however, has its origins in the fevered imaginings of Alabama militiaman Michael Vanderboegh, a blogger and writer of Timothy McVeigh-inspired anti-federal government fiction. Vanderboegh, who, when health care reform was passed in March of 2010, urged conservatives to commit acts of violence against Democratic headquarters across the country. “If you want to send a message that Pelosi and her party cannot fail to hear, break their windows,” he wrote on his blog when the Affordable Care Act passed, “Break them NOW. Break them and run to break again. Break them under cover of night. Break them in broad daylight. Break them and await arrest in willful, principled civil disobedience. Break them with rocks. Break them with slingshots. Break them with baseball bats. But BREAK THEM.” A wave of anti-Democratic vandalism struck multiple party offices in several cities. Vanderboegh wasn’t done yet, though. It’s Vanderboegh who cooked up the conspiracy fantasy that “Fast and Furious” is all part of President Barack Obama’s sinister master plan to take away America’s guns. Vanderboegh, a genuine sponsor of domestic terrorist, a man who views himself as a member of an armed insurgency poised to take down the federal government in the name of patriotism
full of fuck story here |
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Posted: 6/23/2012 2:22:29 PM
[Last Edit: 6/23/2012 2:25:18 PM by GurkaDin]
Originally Posted By Everrest:
Juan Williams is no longer open minded. I saw one interview today where he was basing his argument on info from Jay Carney.
The Five 6-22 - Juan Williams Arrrgghhh.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fXMGIgSK0G4Juan is in the tank for Holder and 0bama as is Bob Beckel. They're scared to death F&F will break wide open before the election. |
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Posted: 6/23/2012 2:30:56 PM
[Last Edit: 6/23/2012 2:31:51 PM by Lumpy03]
I'm fully convinced all these lefties have WH/DNC/CPUSA/ACORN/ANSWER/Code Pink/BlacBloc/SDS.. ad nauseum.. seminars on spewing their hateful and uninformed drivel.
Sad, but true. |
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Posted: 6/23/2012 2:50:51 PM
Originally Posted By niteghost:
So where is the IG report? Takes years of thorough investigation. |
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Posted: 6/23/2012 3:00:29 PM
Originally Posted By Kevyn:
Originally Posted By Everrest:
Looks like we won't be getting it from him. CBSNews: W.H.: Ex-staffer can't be questioned on Fast and Furious (CBS News) The White House said a former National Security staffer who communicated with ATF's Special Agent in charge of "Fast and Furious" cannot be interviewed by Congressional investigators.
More at link.The ATF Special Agent, Bill Newell, testified to Congress in July 2011 that he's a longtime friend with then-White House National Security Staffer Kevin O'Reilly. The two emailed and talked on the phone during the controversial Fast and Furious gunwalking operation, according to documents and Newell's testimony to Congress. In one email exchange about Fast and Furious on Feb. 11, 2011 O'Reilly asked Newell, "Would ATF be willing to put you or others in front of US media that gets pickup in Mexico (CNN en Espanol, perhaps) to tell this story?" At the time, the Justice Department and ATF were denying any gunwalking had occurred, and were looking for ways to promote stories about gun traffickers buying weapons in the U.S. and taking them to Mexico. "Kevin as we discussed last night," answered Newell, "these are some examples of what we could get translated and use in the Mexican media . . . The 'Fast and Furious' indictment is listed under 'U.S. v Avila.'" The two also emailed about the case in July 2010, exchanging anecdotes and photographs of gun seizures in the case. Kevin O'reilly emails (PDF) Ok, this has really been bothering me. "The WH says ...(O'Reilly)cannot be interviewed by congressional investigators? What's the legal precedent for this denial? If O'Reilly was served with a congressional subpoena why wouldn't he have to appear? If O'Reilly was served a subpoena from a civil court would he have to appear in civil court with legal representation to answer the subpoena? How can the WH/Barry Soetoro just declare that the congressional investigators cannot question O'Reilly? HOW does he become "off limits" to investigators? WHAT IS the protection he's been granted? From the hotlink: However, White House Counsel Kathryn Ruemmler said O'Reilly will not be made available.
"(N)one of these limited communications between Mr. O'Reilly and Mr. Newell revealed the existence of any of the inappropriate investigative tactics at issue in your inquiry, let alone any decision to allow guns to 'walk,'" wrote Ruemmler in a letter to the offices of Rep. Darrell Issa (R-Calif.) and Sen. Charles Grassley (R-Iowa). Citing Executive Branch confidentiality interests, Ruemmler said, "There is an insufficient basis to support the request to interview Mr. O'Reilly." With a DOJ IG investigation underway and a congressional investigation, one would think that O'Reilly would be within the bounds of either investigation ...maybe he's already been questioned by the DOJ IG and they don't want the congressional investigators to learn what he knows? They are hiding him in Afghanistan IIRC. Special work assignment for the WH.Top secret hush-hush stuff so he's not available. |
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Posted: 6/23/2012 3:09:48 PM
[Last Edit: 6/23/2012 3:46:42 PM by Kihn]
Originally Posted By SnoopisTDI:
Originally Posted By RocketmanOU:
Originally Posted By Rogue-Sasquatch:
Originally Posted By RarestRX:
Good take down of the stupid "Bush did it too!" meme the dems are trying to push: http://drawandstrike.blogspot.com/2012/06/stupid-new-liberal-talking-point-obamas.html http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-QcKzjTd6aws/T-O7BOVWo2I/AAAAAAAAA4k/10sdx6a6oUQ/s640/f+and+f+vs+wide+receiver+fixed.jpg Let's make sure we get our facts 100% right so we don't hurt our credibility when we use this argument. Guns DID cross the border under Wide Receiver. It's not accurate or honest to say that zero guns entered Mexico as part of Wide Receiver. The difference is that it was never intended for them to leave control of either ATF or the Mexican authorities; custody was supposed to exist from beginning to end. As soon as that failed, Wide Receiver was stopped. With Fast & Furious, it was never intended for there to BE custody of the weapons. They were supposed to be "in the wild" from the very start. And, since that was the desired result of the operation, Fast & Furious continued while guns were crossing the border out of the custody of ATF. I dropped a message to the blogger saying precisely this, asking them to update the graphic. Doesn't walking imply they intentionally let them go? If walking is releasing them "in the wild" then Wide Receiver didn't to that. They tracked them, but failed and the guns got away. Not the same as letting them "walk." The graphic could definitely use a clarification, but I do think it is technically correct. I think "gun walking" is used to define any firearms crossing the border in what otherwise would be considered an illicit manner (when not done under the guise of federal oversight and involvement). GWB admin recognized it was flawed and shut it down. BHO admin started it back up to create an illusion, one that piggy backed on the legitimacy of wide receiver. GWB's motivation was to catch illegal gun runners. BHO's is to create a political climate, to institute new policies, by arming cartels with firearms considered legal to own in the states. To implicate legal gun owners in the U.S. as being complicit in the gun trafficking and cartel-related deaths. This is so bltantly obvious by the attempt of the administration to push the '70- 90% of all illegal guns used in crimes in Mexico are from the U.S' state department, ATF, WH & MSM sell. |
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Posted: 6/23/2012 3:12:00 PM
Originally Posted By Rogue-Sasquatch:
Originally Posted By floridacop:
Real Time with Bill Maher actually has two guys giving Maher and the little boy with glasses (AKA Rachel Maddow) logical arguments for why Fast and Furious is important. Maddow is pissed and is misrepresenting the issues and Maher seems a little lost for words. Nick Gillispe (author/editor Reason.tv) and Mort Zuckerman (editor and chief of News and World Report) both admotted that they are not republican leaning individuals but stated that this is a story that needs to be covred. Gillispe called out Maddow for being a democrat and not being able to step outside the democratic party line, Holy Shit, I dont know these guys, but they were sane and reasonable on Fast and Furious and called Maddow on her bullshit that Bush started this and Obama inherited it, So we have 2 guys explaining that as non republican leaning people saying this needs to be explained and contempt proceedings are appropriate. PLEASE post a video / audio clip of this. I really want to post this around and shut down the derp from some of my Obama-voting relatives... RealClearPolitics: Fireworks: Maher, Maddow And Nick Gillespie Debate Fast & Furious (video) "I was one of those people until this week who didn't know [about Fast and Furious]," Maher declared at the opening of his panel on this week's broadcast of "Real Time."
"I heard that term, Fast and Furious, it's not the movie, by the way. It's the name of an operation that the Feds were indulging in to try to trace guns. They were purposely selling them to Mexican drug dealers," Maher shared. "By the way, Darrell Issa, whose ahead of the committee that just held Holder in contempt, he was here about a year ago and he said to me backstage before the show, 'Are you going to talk about Fast and Furious?' and I said, 'I don't really like Vin Diesel.' I didn't know what he was talking about." |
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polymer4me
A sinner saved by Grace
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Posted: 6/23/2012 3:18:33 PM
Originally Posted By Jacketch:
Bill Whittle destroys the "botched" claim Bill Whittle on F&F Needs embeded. Originally Posted By Frog_Legs:
ETA: I has the power.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFIpoL3jrfo&feature=player_embedded
Excellent video |
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Posted: 6/23/2012 3:36:25 PM
Originally Posted By Hedonist:
So is that where the donated money for a Crowder F&F video went, into Whittle's PJTV video? Crowder is part of PJTV, right? Good video - now how do you get liberals to watch it? For us, it's just confirmation of what we've suspected, and raises the blood pressure. The part at the end about racism is true - libs think those killed "were only Mexicans" - if they were Graphic Artists from San Francisco they might actually care... but... they were just Mexicans. Post it on facebook if you have libs as friends. Once one watches it and starts going off on you others watch it too. |
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Posted: 6/23/2012 3:39:01 PM
Originally Posted By Lumpy03:
I'm fully convinced all these lefties have WH/DNC/CPUSA/ACORN/ANSWER/Code Pink/BlacBloc/SDS.. ad nauseum.. seminars on spewing their hateful and uninformed drivel. Sad, but true. Not seminars but they are organized and all get the same talking points from media matters. |
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Posted: 6/23/2012 3:39:03 PM
This is a long article, but lays out a lot of facts about OCDETF. The OCDETF is a topic that DOJ is trying to remove from Fast and Furious. PLEASE Read!
Right Side News: Fast and Furious and OCDETF Whom is executive privilege protecting? This is a small snippet OCDETF cases are very different. They get to the front of the line when it comes to resources, particularly wiretapping — one of the only investigative techniques for which federal law requires approval by the attorney general or his designee (a top DOJ official) before the investigating agency and the district U.S. attorney may seek court approval. (For example, no Main Justice green-light is needed to seek a search warrant, make an arrest, flip an informant, convene a grand jury, issue a subpoena, or collect evidence in sundry other ways.)
Moreover, as you might expect, given that the “OC” in OCDETF stands for “Organized Crime,” OCDETF investigations almost always contemplate — and frequently indict — racketeering charges under RICO (the statute outlawing “Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations”). RICO is one of the few federal laws under which a district U.S. attorney needs permission from Main Justice before indicting. |
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niteghost
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Posted: 6/23/2012 3:49:01 PM
Originally Posted By Kihn:
Originally Posted By niteghost:
So where is the IG report? Takes years of thorough investigation. Or maybe it's just taking them a while to figure out the lies to cover the lies 
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Posted: 6/23/2012 3:53:09 PM
Originally Posted By niteghost:
Originally Posted By Kihn:
Originally Posted By niteghost:
So where is the IG report? Takes years of thorough investigation. Or maybe it's just taking them a while to figure out the lies to cover the lies
I do believe you to be correct. I see it as being more of an execise in the art of compromise between the two parties. A really long, drawn out one. |
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niteghost
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Posted: 6/23/2012 4:13:35 PM
Originally Posted By Kihn:
Originally Posted By niteghost:
Originally Posted By Kihn:
Originally Posted By niteghost:
So where is the IG report? Takes years of thorough investigation. Or maybe it's just taking them a while to figure out the lies to cover the lies
I do believe you to be correct. I see it as being more of an execise in the art of compromise between the two parties. A really long, drawn out one. I see it as more of a tool for EH/DOJ/BO/WH to use to their advantage. How many times have they said we are waiting on the IG report? Their is never going to be a true and honest IG investigation or report, as long as these American hating traitors are in power. Obama has his pawns in place for a reason and he is playing them. |
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Posted: 6/23/2012 4:25:52 PM
Originally Posted By niteghost:
Originally Posted By Kihn:
Originally Posted By niteghost:
Originally Posted By Kihn:
Originally Posted By niteghost:
So where is the IG report? Takes years of thorough investigation. Or maybe it's just taking them a while to figure out the lies to cover the lies
I do believe you to be correct. I see it as being more of an execise in the art of compromise between the two parties. A really long, drawn out one. I see it as more of a tool for EH/DOJ/BO/WH to use to their advantage. How many times have they said we are waiting on the IG report? Their is never going to be a true and honest IG investigation or report, as long as these American hating traitors are in power. Obama has his pawns in place for a reason and he is playing them. And in the end (much further down the road) the report will come out, with both sides giving their input until the final report is made, that seeks to find a acceptable explanation that placates both sides and puts an end to it. It has happened this way many times before. THey never are true and honest investigations. They are compromises. Special prosecutors work the same way. Its drawn out to dilute the significance of it and tire everybody out on the issue. Its a political move. |
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niteghost
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Posted: 6/23/2012 4:40:06 PM
Originally Posted By Kihn:
Originally Posted By niteghost:
Originally Posted By Kihn:
Originally Posted By niteghost:
Originally Posted By Kihn:
Originally Posted By niteghost:
So where is the IG report? Takes years of thorough investigation. Or maybe it's just taking them a while to figure out the lies to cover the lies
I do believe you to be correct. I see it as being more of an execise in the art of compromise between the two parties. A really long, drawn out one. I see it as more of a tool for EH/DOJ/BO/WH to use to their advantage. How many times have they said we are waiting on the IG report? Their is never going to be a true and honest IG investigation or report, as long as these American hating traitors are in power. Obama has his pawns in place for a reason and he is playing them. And in the end (much further down the road) the report will come out, with both sides giving their input until the final report is made, that seeks to find a acceptable explanation that placates both sides and puts an end to it. It has happened this way many times before. THey never are true and honest investigations. They are compromises. Special prosecutors work the same way. Its drawn out to dilute the significance of it and tire everybody out on the issue. Its a political move. Unfortunate, isn't it? |
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Posted: 6/23/2012 4:43:46 PM
Originally Posted By niteghost:
Originally Posted By Kihn:
Originally Posted By niteghost:
Originally Posted By Kihn:
Originally Posted By niteghost:
Originally Posted By Kihn:
Originally Posted By niteghost:
So where is the IG report? Takes years of thorough investigation. Or maybe it's just taking them a while to figure out the lies to cover the lies
I do believe you to be correct. I see it as being more of an execise in the art of compromise between the two parties. A really long, drawn out one. I see it as more of a tool for EH/DOJ/BO/WH to use to their advantage. How many times have they said we are waiting on the IG report? Their is never going to be a true and honest IG investigation or report, as long as these American hating traitors are in power. Obama has his pawns in place for a reason and he is playing them. And in the end (much further down the road) the report will come out, with both sides giving their input until the final report is made, that seeks to find a acceptable explanation that placates both sides and puts an end to it. It has happened this way many times before. THey never are true and honest investigations. They are compromises. Special prosecutors work the same way. Its drawn out to dilute the significance of it and tire everybody out on the issue. Its a political move. Unfortunate, isn't it? Yes. |
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Molon-Labe
Your assumptions are wrong.
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Posted: 6/23/2012 4:44:45 PM
Originally Posted By Hedonist: So is that where the donated money for a Crowder F&F video went, into Whittle's PJTV video? Crowder is part of PJTV, right? Good video - now how do you get liberals to watch it? For us, it's just confirmation of what we've suspected, and raises the blood pressure. The part at the end about racism is true - libs think those killed "were only Mexicans" - if they were Graphic Artists from San Francisco they might actually care... but... they were just Mexicans. Has anyone heard from Stephen since he got the money? I thought some of the people here were going to contact him to demand he return it. |
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SuperMoose
Guns don't kill people, the gubbermint does.
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Posted: 6/23/2012 5:38:06 PM
Originally Posted By RarestRX:
Good take down of the stupid "Bush did it too!" meme the dems are trying to push: http://drawandstrike.blogspot.com/2012/06/stupid-new-liberal-talking-point-obamas.html http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-QcKzjTd6aws/T-O7BOVWo2I/AAAAAAAAA4k/10sdx6a6oUQ/s640/f+and+f+vs+wide+receiver+fixed.jpg Doing my part. I'm in the Apple store in KOP and leaving that image up on every iPad I touch.  |
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Troubl3shooter
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Posted: 6/23/2012 7:09:53 PM
Originally Posted By Everrest: Originally Posted By Rogue-Sasquatch: Originally Posted By floridacop: Real Time with Bill Maher actually has two guys giving Maher and the little boy with glasses (AKA Rachel Maddow) logical arguments for why Fast and Furious is important. Maddow is pissed and is misrepresenting the issues and Maher seems a little lost for words. Nick Gillispe (author/editor Reason.tv) and Mort Zuckerman (editor and chief of News and World Report) both admotted that they are not republican leaning individuals but stated that this is a story that needs to be covred. Gillispe called out Maddow for being a democrat and not being able to step outside the democratic party line, Holy Shit, I dont know these guys, but they were sane and reasonable on Fast and Furious and called Maddow on her bullshit that Bush started this and Obama inherited it, So we have 2 guys explaining that as non republican leaning people saying this needs to be explained and contempt proceedings are appropriate. PLEASE post a video / audio clip of this. I really want to post this around and shut down the derp from some of my Obama-voting relatives... RealClearPolitics: Fireworks: Maher, Maddow And Nick Gillespie Debate Fast & Furious (video) "I was one of those people until this week who didn't know [about Fast and Furious]," Maher declared at the opening of his panel on this week's broadcast of "Real Time." "I heard that term, Fast and Furious, it's not the movie, by the way. It's the name of an operation that the Feds were indulging in to try to trace guns. They were purposely selling them to Mexican drug dealers," Maher shared. "By the way, Darrell Issa, whose ahead of the committee that just held Holder in contempt, he was here about a year ago and he said to me backstage before the show, 'Are you going to talk about Fast and Furious?' and I said, 'I don't really like Vin Diesel.' I didn't know what he was talking about." We're taking it in the ass because *nobody* will say, "The Mexicans get their guns from the government, not the mom and pop gun shops or WalMart." *Nobody* is bringing up the direct sales program of the fact that the cartels get their guns from the Mexican military. |
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Posted: 6/23/2012 8:13:58 PM
Can we update page 1 with a good explanation of WR vs F&F? Nearly every page has some rehash of the differences. I'm sure us regulars no longer need to have it explained to us anymore. Put it on page 1 for the noobs, so we can discuss more recent developments.
Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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bc5000
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Posted: 6/23/2012 8:20:31 PM
Originally Posted By lilMAC25:
No, as stated earlier in this thread, the conditions that made WR a failure were EXACTLY the conditions that F&F was designed to create. Originally Posted By bc5000:
Originally Posted By Rogue-Sasquatch:
Originally Posted By RarestRX:
Good take down of the stupid "Bush did it too!" meme the dems are trying to push: http://drawandstrike.blogspot.com/2012/06/stupid-new-liberal-talking-point-obamas.html http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-QcKzjTd6aws/T-O7BOVWo2I/AAAAAAAAA4k/10sdx6a6oUQ/s640/f+and+f+vs+wide+receiver+fixed.jpg Let's make sure we get our facts 100% right so we don't hurt our credibility when we use this argument. Guns DID cross the border under Wide Receiver. It's not accurate or honest to say that zero guns entered Mexico as part of Wide Receiver. The difference is that it was never intended for them to leave control of either ATF or the Mexican authorities; custody was supposed to exist from beginning to end. As soon as that failed, Wide Receiver was stopped. With Fast & Furious, it was never intended for there to BE custody of the weapons. They were supposed to be "in the wild" from the very start. And, since that was the desired result of the operation, Fast & Furious continued while guns were crossing the border out of the custody of ATF. In other words it was "botched".
I thought the emoticon would show I was being sarcastic. |
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Posted: 6/23/2012 10:42:43 PM
My bad bc...
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Frog_Legs
Tactical Blocking Dummy
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Posted: 6/23/2012 10:49:14 PM
SNIP: President Obama may have to clear a high bar in order to lock down Fast and Furious documents from the prying eyes of congressional investigators.
After the White House asserted executive privilege over potentially thousands of documents pertaining to the botched anti-gunrunning operation, critics of the move pointed out that the federal appeals court in the nation's capital has taken a skeptical view toward privilege claims in the past. The D.C. appeals court in 2004 rejected a privilege claim made by the George W. Bush White House pertaining to Justice Department documents dating back to the Clinton administration. That case involved a different type of claim, but a 1997 opinion from the same court made an observation that could come back to haunt the Obama administration if the current case ends up before the federal judiciary. "The privilege," the court wrote, "disappears altogether when there is any reason to believe government misconduct occurred." Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/06/23/court-rulings-suggest-privilege-claim-over-furious-docs-would-fizzle/#ixzz1yfvg0ADC http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/06/23/court-rulings-suggest-privilege-claim-over-furious-docs-would-fizzle/ |
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polymer4me
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Posted: 6/23/2012 10:51:50 PM
Originally Posted By Everrest:
This is a long article, but lays out a lot of facts about OCDETF. The OCDETF is a topic that DOJ is trying to remove from Fast and Furious. PLEASE Read! Right Side News: Fast and Furious and OCDETF Whom is executive privilege protecting? This is a small snippet OCDETF cases are very different. They get to the front of the line when it comes to resources, particularly wiretapping — one of the only investigative techniques for which federal law requires approval by the attorney general or his designee (a top DOJ official) before the investigating agency and the district U.S. attorney may seek court approval. (For example, no Main Justice green-light is needed to seek a search warrant, make an arrest, flip an informant, convene a grand jury, issue a subpoena, or collect evidence in sundry other ways.)
Moreover, as you might expect, given that the “OC” in OCDETF stands for “Organized Crime,” OCDETF investigations almost always contemplate — and frequently indict — racketeering charges under RICO (the statute outlawing “Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations”). RICO is one of the few federal laws under which a district U.S. attorney needs permission from Main Justice before indicting. Wow Everrest, that was a great article! Although I knew about OCDETF, I wasn't aware of the connection to Main Justice, nor of the many intricate details that are involved with such cases. This PROVES holder was lying (which we already knew anyway). But to the general public, which probably wouldn't be aware of OCDETF or how it actually works, his lies (w/ the media's help) could sound plausible. But once someone understands the legal ramifications, the only real defense he can use is incompetence! And now, w/ a much better understanding of OCDEFT - even that would be a stretch! Along w/ OCDTF, the invocation of EP and how it ties 0bummer directly into this scandal, is something the American people really need to be made aware of. How we do this though ... I don't know
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polymer4me
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Posted: 6/23/2012 11:12:26 PM
In line w/ what I wrote above ...
I'm still BLOWN AWAY by the 'censorship' that was applied to Rush's show yesterday here in the New England area. After talking to a few other friends today, who live in my area and listen to the same radio station that airs Rush's show, I'm pretty convinced this was done by the local radio station itself. As I described yesterday, the part that was censored was his comment about it being multiple agencies (4 as he claimed) and in as many as 10 cites in 5 states. This proves to people (if they were to believe him) that F&F could NOT have been a rouge op conducted out of the Phoenix ATF office. The MSM and the radical left are working overtime to cover up these facts. We still have a long, uphill road ahead of us in getting the truth out to the general population. Just as an example of how hard this will be ... Until Wednesday, most people still though F&F was a movie The MSM has done a great job burying this. Now that they can no longer ignore it, the spin is so crazy it's making me dizzy!
IMHO, many in the MSM need to face criminal charges for their involvement in the cover-up
But of course I know it will never happen  |
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Strykewolf
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Posted: 6/24/2012 12:28:00 AM
[Last Edit: 6/24/2012 12:32:25 AM by Strykewolf]
Originally Posted By polymer4me:
In line w/ what I wrote above ... I'm still BLOWN AWAY by the 'censorship' that was applied to Rush's show yesterday here in the New England area. After talking to a few other friends today, who live in my area and listen to the same radio station that airs Rush's show, I'm pretty convinced this was done by the local radio station itself. As I described yesterday, the part that was censored was his comment about it being multiple agencies (4 as he claimed) and in as many as 10 cites in 5 states. This proves to people (if they were to believe him) that F&F could NOT have been a rouge op conducted out of the Phoenix ATF office. The MSM and the radical left are working overtime to cover up these facts. We still have a long, uphill road ahead of us in getting the truth out to the general population. Just as an example of how hard this will be ... Until Wednesday, most people still though F&F was a movie The MSM has done a great job burying this. Now that they can no longer ignore it, the spin is so crazy it's making me dizzy!
IMHO, many in the MSM need to face criminal charges for their involvement in the cover-up
But of course I know it will never happen No, this was not a 'rogue op'...this came from the top. Involving multiple agencies. And all of them are my enemy, as far as I am concerned. (ETA) should probably expand upon my statement. If you are part of the agencies implicated, and cannot be bothered to try and get to the bottom of this, cannot be bothered to help in revealing the truth of the ops involved, cannot be bothered to try and hold those involved in this accountable, or, are a part of doing all of this. You are my enemy. ((shrugs)) And until it is addressed, and corrected...I feel no compunction to support, aid, help. |
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