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Posted: 2/8/2011 2:32:53 PM EDT
[#1]
I'm not holding my breath, but I'll pull out some popcorn and watch where this is heading.
Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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AZ, USA
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Posted: 2/8/2011 2:49:33 PM EDT
[#2]
Originally Posted By WIZZO_ARAKM14:
I'm not holding my breath, but I'll pull out some popcorn and watch where this is heading. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile How about putting down the popcorn, picking up the phone and dialing your Senator, and letting that breath out in the form of a question like, "What are you doing about the following allegations...." Thanks |
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Posted: 2/8/2011 2:51:44 PM EDT
[#3]
Originally Posted By juan223:
Originally Posted By WIZZO_ARAKM14:
I'm not holding my breath, but I'll pull out some popcorn and watch where this is heading. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile How about putting down the popcorn, picking up the phone and dialing your Senator, and letting that breath out in the form of a question like, "What are you doing about the following allegations...." Thanks +1 What have Kyle and McCain's responses been? |
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Posted: 2/8/2011 2:55:21 PM EDT
[#4]
tag
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AZ, USA
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Posted: 2/8/2011 3:38:36 PM EDT
[#5]
Originally Posted By Wingnut116ACW:
Originally Posted By juan223:
Originally Posted By WIZZO_ARAKM14:
I'm not holding my breath, but I'll pull out some popcorn and watch where this is heading. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile How about putting down the popcorn, picking up the phone and dialing your Senator, and letting that breath out in the form of a question like, "What are you doing about the following allegations...." Thanks +1 What have Kyle and McCain's responses been? I'm awaiting "responses", I will call again tomorrow. |
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Posted: 2/8/2011 3:39:10 PM EDT
[Last Edit: AJ_Dual]
[#6]
If the crap that went down in the 90's didn't get the ATF disbanded/reorganized/de-funded or rolled into some other more reputable alphabet agency, there's no way this single incident will. (Or all the time supposedly more pro-RKBA/small govt. Republicans had control of the White House and both houses of Congress...)
However, one can at least still hope for a serious slap to the collective ATF peepee, and they'll tread lightly for a year or two before sliding back into their old ways. |
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AZ, USA
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Posted: 2/8/2011 3:41:47 PM EDT
[#7]
The U.S. Justice Department denies a claim that two guns sold in purchases sanctioned by federal firearms agents were later used in a shootout that left a Border Patrol agent dead near the Arizona-Mexico border. Assistant U.S. Attorney General Ronald Weich says in a letter obtained Tuesday by the Associated Press that the claim is false. The letter was written to U.S. Sen. Charles Grassley of Iowa. Grassley has said he received information that appeared to partially corroborate the claim received by members of the Senate Judiciary Committee about the guns. Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry was waiting with other agents on Dec. 14 near the Arizona border city of Nogales when a shootout with bandits erupted. Terry died in the attack. Read more: http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2011/02/08/20110208border-shootout-guns-us-denies-claim.html#ixzz1DOzKmyzh The term "sanctioned by" has me wondering.... http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2011/02/08/20110208border-shootout-guns-us-denies-claim.html |
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Posted: 2/8/2011 4:40:18 PM EDT
[#8]
Originally Posted By juan223:
The U.S. Justice Department denies a claim that two guns sold in purchases sanctioned by federal firearms agents were later used in a shootout that left a Border Patrol agent dead near the Arizona-Mexico border. Assistant U.S. Attorney General Ronald Weich says in a letter obtained Tuesday by the Associated Press that the claim is false. The letter was written to U.S. Sen. Charles Grassley of Iowa. Grassley has said he received information that appeared to partially corroborate the claim received by members of the Senate Judiciary Committee about the guns. Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry was waiting with other agents on Dec. 14 near the Arizona border city of Nogales when a shootout with bandits erupted. Terry died in the attack. Read more: http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2011/02/08/20110208border-shootout-guns-us-denies-claim.html#ixzz1DOzKmyzh The term "sanctioned by" has me wondering.... http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2011/02/08/20110208border-shootout-guns-us-denies-claim.html This is what irritates me about the AP. They have a copy of the letter. post the damn thing. |
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Posted: 2/8/2011 4:50:51 PM EDT
[#9]
SipseyStreetirregulars has the letter posted:
http://sipseystreetirregulars.blogspot.com/2011/02/empire-strikes-back-doj-issues-denial.html 
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Posted: 2/8/2011 5:05:25 PM EDT
[#10]
Originally Posted By NoloContendere:
SipseyStreetirregulars has the letter posted: http://sipseystreetirregulars.blogspot.com/2011/02/empire-strikes-back-doj-issues-denial.html http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_k07pirzBU34/TVG4F84r5XI/AAAAAAAAG4Y/2oWTWvs4TpQ/s1600/ScreenHunter_03_Feb._08_16.14.jpg http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_k07pirzBU34/TVG4TLMir_I/AAAAAAAAG4g/Bb5rGbsBXmQ/s1600/ScreenHunter_04_Feb._08_16.15.jpg Reads like BS to me. |
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OK, USA
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Posted: 2/8/2011 5:49:20 PM EDT
[#11]
So the Senator wrote a letter to the ATF, and the ATF had mommy write back for them?
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Posted: 2/8/2011 5:52:56 PM EDT
[#12]
Originally Posted By ARDestructo: So the Senator wrote a letter to the ATF, and the ATF had mommy write back for them? It would appear so. Someone's a little worried if I had to guess. |
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Posted: 2/8/2011 6:05:53 PM EDT
[#13]
I was merely unsettled by this, at first. Then I was deeply troubled. Now I'm fucking pissed.
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AZ, USA
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Posted: 2/8/2011 6:37:05 PM EDT
[#14]
Originally Posted By wunbadweel:
I was merely unsettled by this, at first. Then I was deeply troubled. Now I'm fucking pissed. I am concerned that the one suspected "border bandit" in custody will be offered some sweetheart deal (if he is EVER charged w/ murder that is). I presume that would preclude the need to disclose the evidence, which would include recovered firearms from the scene of the murder. |
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Posted: 2/8/2011 7:12:53 PM EDT
[#15]
Originally Posted By wunbadweel:
I was merely unsettled by this, at first. Then I was deeply troubled. Now I'm fucking pissed. Reads to me like the ATF is scared that the Senator may discover they are involved up to their eyeballs in this crap. |
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AZ, USA
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Posted: 2/8/2011 8:09:35 PM EDT
[Last Edit: juan223]
[#16]
Grassley spokeswoman Beth Pellett Levine said the Justice Department denied one aspect of allegations presented by whistleblowers and promised to give the senator a briefing. "However, the briefing has still not occurred, and documents provided with the allegations are not consistent with that denial," she said. "There are many specific questions that need to be answered in full by the Justice Department as soon as possible."
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jPM9pJmJKqeODDsEAmM63_6YDvOg?docId=cabff60adfe4422b9bd95d1f3accda68 |
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Posted: 2/8/2011 8:26:20 PM EDT
[Last Edit: lostnswv]
[#17]
Originally Posted By Furyataurus:
This will get buried under so much red tape and back door dealings it will never see the light of day.  Maybe last year, but this is a different year and budgets are getting ready to get cut. Do you want to be the one to stand in front of that bus when it is comes barreling down the lane. Edited, just caught up with the thread. The response from the Deputy AG tells me this maybe on like Donkey Kong. |
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Posted: 2/8/2011 9:30:23 PM EDT
[#18]
Originally Posted By jdubya87:
Originally Posted By NoloContendere:
SipseyStreetirregulars has the letter posted: http://sipseystreetirregulars.blogspot.com/2011/02/empire-strikes-back-doj-issues-denial.html http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_k07pirzBU34/TVG4F84r5XI/AAAAAAAAG4Y/2oWTWvs4TpQ/s1600/ScreenHunter_03_Feb._08_16.14.jpg http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_k07pirzBU34/TVG4TLMir_I/AAAAAAAAG4g/Bb5rGbsBXmQ/s1600/ScreenHunter_04_Feb._08_16.15.jpg Reads like BS to me. It is total BS... and it's provable. Grassley just got handed what he was looking for. |
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AZ, USA
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Posted: 2/9/2011 9:10:57 AM EDT
[#19]
http://sipseystreetirregulars.blogspot.com/2011/02/looks-like-grassleys-office-aint-buying.html
Meanwhile, our sources within ATF confidently stood by the whistleblowers' narrative and uniformly scoffed –– some profanely and obscenely –– at the DOJ letter's fig leaf of the word "sanctioned," comparing it to the Clintonian use of "sexual relations" or the definition of "what 'is' is."
A long-time observer of DC in general and the ATF in particular had this reaction: The letter is supposed to create layers of deniability and create a distraction via the insult mechanism (i.e., get you to react to and focus on the insult rather than salient facts or questions). I doubt Lanny Breuer is going to come near this. And the point about Melson not responding to the letter is more than telling; Melson may not have had a choice, consider that. Some questions that occur to me, in no particular order of importance: 1. Has the gun used to murder Border Patrol agent Brian Terry been identified? If so, on what evidentiary basis, including ballistic evidence. If the gun has been identified, the two key questions: (A) has this gun ever been traced before? (B) if so, what do the traces show? 2. What are the locations in Mexico where "gunwalked" firearms were recovered? 3. Were any "gunwalked" firearms used to murder anybody in Mexico? If so, who? Again the Goat (Copulation) questions: (A) have any of these guns ever been traced before? (B) if so, what do the traces show? 4. Did Assistant Attorney General Lanny A. Breuer attend any meetings at which Project Gunrunner was discussed in full or in part? If so, provide (1) the date of the meeting or meetings, (2) names of all persons who attended each meeting or meetings, and (3) the unredacted write-ups of what was discussed at each meeting or meetings, as well as private, unpublished notes, e-mails and any other documents that contain information about each meeting or meetings. [nota bene: I am making a distinction here between ATF and DOJ as institutions, in asking these questions] 5. For each of the 274 firearms recovered in Mexico, describe the extent, if any, to which Mexican authorities were advised these firearms had been transported to Mexico with the knowledge of ATF. |
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Posted: 2/9/2011 9:51:11 AM EDT
[#20]
That letter from DOJ reads like "Don't ask because you ain't gettin'". I'm sure Sen Grassley is shaking in his boots.
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VA, USA
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Posted: 2/9/2011 10:19:29 AM EDT
[#21]
I like the "don't talk to our agents you can only talk to us".
Pretty sure Congress can subpoena anybody they damn well please. |
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Posted: 2/9/2011 10:29:00 AM EDT
[#22]
Just remember the law od unintended consequences - if the ATF gets smacked down/defunded, who will process form 1s/form 4s? Don't just assume that the requirements will go away just because the agency tasked with supervising them does. Note I am not trying to defend the ATF, but just realize that no bureacracy goes away without a mess.
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AZ, USA
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Posted: 2/9/2011 10:33:42 AM EDT
[#23]
Originally Posted By Phocks:
Just remember the law od unintended consequences - if the ATF gets smacked down/defunded, who will process form 1s/form 4s? Don't just assume that the requirements will go away just because the agency tasked with supervising them does. Note I am not trying to defend the ATF, but just realize that no bureacracy goes away without a mess. And if mom sends dad to jail for beating her to a pulp who is gonna pay the rent!!! Umm...yea.... Well, I think we are willing to chance it. |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 2/9/2011 10:39:24 AM EDT
[#24]
Originally Posted By Phocks:
Just remember the law od unintended consequences - if the ATF gets smacked down/defunded, who will process form 1s/form 4s? Don't just assume that the requirements will go away just because the agency tasked with supervising them does. Note I am not trying to defend the ATF, but just realize that no bureacracy goes away without a mess. If the ATF is unfunded, who is going to go after you for not having NFA forms? |
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Posted: 2/9/2011 10:40:05 AM EDT
[#25]
Originally Posted By Phocks:
Just remember the law od unintended consequences - if the ATF gets smacked down/defunded, who will process form 1s/form 4s? Don't just assume that the requirements will go away just because the agency tasked with supervising them does. Note I am not trying to defend the ATF, but just realize that no bureacracy goes away without a mess. This is why, since the BATFE and Congress aren't interested in repealing the Hughes Amendment, we're going after the NFA through the courts. Fuck'em if they can't take a joke. They want to play this bullshit, they can try to justify the existance of the NFA before SCOTUS under strict scrutiny standards. The BATFE has no interest in working with the people or the industry so it's time to stop dealing with these idiots and take it to court. However, there's still time to repeal Hughes and to stop these bullshit anti-gun antics. Not much time but a little. Balls in your court BATFE and Congress. I'm sure Justice Alito or Scalia would just LOVE to write a majority opinion on an NFA challange. |
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Posted: 2/9/2011 11:05:48 AM EDT
[#26]
Tag for the imminent response by the Senetor to the DOJ
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Posted: 2/9/2011 11:13:54 AM EDT
[#27]
Oh, this just got GOOD.
I may send Senator Grassley a few dollars for his fine work. |
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USA
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Posted: 2/9/2011 11:26:49 AM EDT
[#28]
274 firearms were recovered in Mexico. Did those firearms remain in Mexico, or were they brought back into the USA? If brought back into the USA, wouldn't there are a myriad of various forms and paperwork to fill out to import firearms to the US regardless of who, or which agency brings the firearms into the USA? If the firearms were brought back into the USA, I would be very interested to find out whether or not all the paperwork was properly processed first.
If we have to obey the laws, it would be nice of those in charge of enforcing the laws also obeyed them. |
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NV, USA
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Posted: 2/9/2011 11:41:34 AM EDT
[#29]
Wow. "Buzz off senator. We got this, just shut your pie hole - and quit asking questions."
The question is, will the Senator actually push this any farther? Or will this just go under the rug like everything else in DC? |
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WA, USA
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Posted: 2/9/2011 11:51:05 AM EDT
[#30]
The silence in that letter is deafening. Its all about ascerting damage control. In my humble opinion: "GUILTY"!!!!
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AZ, USA
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Posted: 2/9/2011 11:54:01 AM EDT
[#31]
Originally Posted By Lem:
The question is, will the Senator actually push this any farther? Or will this just go under the rug like everything else in DC? Do you want him to push it? If you do, call him and let him know you support his inquiry, then call your Senators and Reps to ask them to do the same. I am calling mine again today |
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Posted: 2/9/2011 12:09:05 PM EDT
[#32]
Originally Posted By juan223: Originally Posted By Lem: The question is, will the Senator actually push this any farther? Or will this just go under the rug like everything else in DC? Do you want him to push it? If you do, call him and let him know you support his inquiry, then call your Senators and Reps to ask them to do the same. I am calling mine again today This. Done and Done. Make some calls people! 
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Posted: 2/9/2011 12:29:40 PM EDT
[Last Edit: joshki]
[#33]
Originally Posted By Hard_Rock:
Originally Posted By Phocks:
Just remember the law od unintended consequences - if the ATF gets smacked down/defunded, who will process form 1s/form 4s? Don't just assume that the requirements will go away just because the agency tasked with supervising them does. Note I am not trying to defend the ATF, but just realize that no bureacracy goes away without a mess. This is why, since the BATFE and Congress aren't interested in repealing the Hughes Amendment, we're going after the NFA through the courts. Fuck'em if they can't take a joke. They want to play this bullshit, they can try to justify the existance of the NFA before SCOTUS under strict scrutiny standards. The BATFE has no interest in working with the people or the industry so it's time to stop dealing with these idiots and take it to court. However, there's still time to repeal Hughes and to stop these bullshit anti-gun antics. Not much time but a little. Balls in your court BATFE and Congress. I'm sure Justice Alito or Scalia would just LOVE to write a majority opinion on an NFA challange. Scalia or Alito would be writing a dissent if an NFA case made it to SCOTUS right now, and you should know it. Heller and McDonald both had to be written very carefully to get Kennedy's vote. If Kennedy decides to retire, you're probably 20+ years away from having a machine-gun friendly SCOTUS. The only way Hughes is going away any time in the near future is if Congress repeals it, and they've shown no indication they have any interest in doing so. ETA: Pushing NFA cases into the court system right now is a really bad plan, unless you want to get SCOTUS precedent against machine gun ownership. |
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AZ, USA
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Posted: 2/9/2011 12:46:43 PM EDT
[#34]
FWIW.....
A person highly positioned in USBP has brought forward some very disturbing information about this case. His or her identity must remain secret for concern about retaliation within the department for leaking this information.
The source said the "brass in Nogalas, Tucson and DC is very worried about the facts getting out to the public and have issued a gag order on all agents. They are threatening to fire agents if they are caught talking about the facts of Brian Terry's murder." http://www.texasgopvote.com/fix-immigration/murder-border-patrol-agent-brian-terry-government-covering-something-its-silence-002459 |
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AZ, USA
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Posted: 2/10/2011 1:51:25 AM EDT
[Last Edit: juan223]
[#35]
BOOM
http://sipseystreetirregulars.blogspot.com/2011/02/rosetta-stone-david-codrea-posts.html It is already public record that federal agents arrested Jaime Avila on December 15, 2010—the very same day that CBP Agent Terry died. The ATF had been tracking Avila’s firearms purchases because Avila was a suspected trafficker since at least November 2009.1 According to the whistleblowers, at least one gun dealer wanted to stop participating in sales like those to Avila sometime around October 2009. However, the ATF allegedly encouraged the dealer to continue selling to suspected traffickers and asked the dealer to forward information about the sales to the Bureau.
It’s hard to accept that our son was shot and murdered with a gun that was bought in the U.S. We have not had any contact from the Border Patrol or any other agents since returning home on the 22nd of [January]. Our calls are not returned. I truly feel that our son’s death is a cover-up and they hope that we will go away. That will not happen. We want to know who allowed the sale of that gun that murdered our son. Any help will [be] appreciated. We are the victims of this case and we want some answers.
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AZ, USA
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Posted: 2/10/2011 2:03:25 AM EDT
[#36]
After the shooting of CBP Agent Terry, law enforcement officials recovered from the scene two assault rifles. On December 16, 2010, ATF’s trace results confirmed that serial numbers 1983AH3977 and 1971CZ3755 match two of the three rifles purchased by Avila and tracked by the ATF nearly a year earlier. In addition to these specific weapons, the indictment of Avila and others references approximately 769 firearms. Of those, the indictment refers to the recovery of only about 103 weapons. So, where are the other approximately 666 weapons referenced in the indictment? Why did the ATF not seize them?
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AZ, USA
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Posted: 2/10/2011 2:18:41 AM EDT
[#37]
Anyone read this yet?
opinions? |
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Posted: 2/10/2011 2:22:23 AM EDT
[Last Edit: polarbare]
[#38]
Originally Posted By juan223: BOOM http://sipseystreetirregulars.blogspot.com/2011/02/rosetta-stone-david-codrea-posts.html It is already public record that federal agents arrested Jaime Avila on December 15, 2010—the very same day that CBP Agent Terry died. The ATF had been tracking Avila’s firearms purchases because Avila was a suspected trafficker since at least November 2009.1 According to the whistleblowers, at least one gun dealer wanted to stop participating in sales like those to Avila sometime around October 2009. However, the ATF allegedly encouraged the dealer to continue selling to suspected traffickers and asked the dealer to forward information about the sales to the Bureau. It’s hard to accept that our son was shot and murdered with a gun that was bought in the U.S. We have not had any contact from the Border Patrol or any other agents since returning home on the 22nd of [January]. Our calls are not returned. I truly feel that our son’s death is a cover-up and they hope that we will go away. That will not happen. We want to know who allowed the sale of that gun that murdered our son. Any help will [be] appreciated. We are the victims of this case and we want some answers. Whoa Nellie - don't think Grassley took kindly to the DOJ's response. His response and some very interesting documents at the above link... |
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NV, USA
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Posted: 2/10/2011 2:32:55 AM EDT
[#39]
Originally Posted By juan223:
Originally Posted By Lem:
The question is, will the Senator actually push this any farther? Or will this just go under the rug like everything else in DC? Do you want him to push it? If you do, call him and let him know you support his inquiry, then call your Senators and Reps to ask them to do the same. I am calling mine again today Well gee Juan, why did I not think of that? I have been wasting my breath on congress critters for more than 40 years. Yes, of course I have contacted Hanoi Harry. Fat lot of good it does. My question was and still is will he push it? Or will yet another BATFE stunt go under the rug? . |
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AZ, USA
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Posted: 2/10/2011 2:36:49 AM EDT
[#40]
Originally Posted By Lem:
Originally Posted By juan223:
Originally Posted By Lem:
The question is, will the Senator actually push this any farther? Or will this just go under the rug like everything else in DC? Do you want him to push it? If you do, call him and let him know you support his inquiry, then call your Senators and Reps to ask them to do the same. I am calling mine again today My question was and still is will he push it? Or will yet another BATFE stunt go under the rug? . Look up..... 
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AZ, USA
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Posted: 2/10/2011 2:54:09 AM EDT
[#41]
Originally Posted By polarbare:
Whoa Nellie - don't think Grassley took kindly to the DOJ's response. Agreed, he detects shenanigans... |
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MI, USA
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Posted: 2/10/2011 3:11:00 AM EDT
[#42]
Originally Posted By Spade:
I like the "don't talk to our agents you can only talk to us". Pretty sure Congress can subpoena anybody they damn well please. Oh hell no....! I had to go back and read the letter when you wrote that! Surely DOJ can't be that dumb, and that blind to not see what's coming down the pike for ATF. Looks like the Republicans are about to put a serious crimp in the BATFags style and the DOJ getting involved tells me that this ATF activity came from higher than DOJ.. |
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Posted: 2/10/2011 8:53:33 AM EDT
[#43]
Originally Posted By juan223:
BOOM http://sipseystreetirregulars.blogspot.com/2011/02/rosetta-stone-david-codrea-posts.html It is already public record that federal agents arrested Jaime Avila on December 15, 2010—the very same day that CBP Agent Terry died. The ATF had been tracking Avila’s firearms purchases because Avila was a suspected trafficker since at least November 2009.1 According to the whistleblowers, at least one gun dealer wanted to stop participating in sales like those to Avila sometime around October 2009. However, the ATF allegedly encouraged the dealer to continue selling to suspected traffickers and asked the dealer to forward information about the sales to the Bureau.
It’s hard to accept that our son was shot and murdered with a gun that was bought in the U.S. We have not had any contact from the Border Patrol or any other agents since returning home on the 22nd of [January]. Our calls are not returned. I truly feel that our son’s death is a cover-up and they hope that we will go away. That will not happen. We want to know who allowed the sale of that gun that murdered our son. Any help will [be] appreciated. We are the victims of this case and we want some answers. now that's going to leave a mark. one of the commentators rightly pointed out, WTF are mccain and Kyl on this? |
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AZ, USA
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Posted: 2/10/2011 9:02:16 AM EDT
[#44]
Originally Posted By Fourays2:
WTF are mccain and Kyl on this? Supposedly "following it"..... |
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Posted: 2/10/2011 9:04:05 AM EDT
[#45]
Shit just got real. BIg props to David Codrea and Mike Vanderboegh for pushing this.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/48549160/RosettaStone |
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Posted: 2/10/2011 9:09:42 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Dr_Dickie]
[#46]
I see that letter as confirming that the arms used "WERE KNOWN TO BE STRAW PURCHASES," by ATF.
It says they did not focus solely on straw purchases, and then says that they were trying to shut down the entire operation (which implies that they were trying to follow the straw purchases to get everyone involved), and then whoopsie-an agent gets shot. |
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AZ, USA
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Posted: 2/10/2011 9:19:35 AM EDT
[#47]
Originally Posted By Dr_Dickie:
I see that letter as confirming that the arms used "WERE KNOWN TO BE STRAW PURCHASES," by ATF. Yep, another bombshell, if proven, is that that FFL did not wish to continue with these alledgely "encouraged" sales. |
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Posted: 2/10/2011 10:42:43 AM EDT
[#48]
Originally Posted By NoloContendere: Shit just got real. BIg props to David Codrea and Mike Vanderboegh for pushing this. http://www.scribd.com/doc/48549160/RosettaStone Hopefully when this gets to hearing, which I'm sure it eventually will, C-SPAN will cover it live. |
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Posted: 2/10/2011 11:00:05 AM EDT
[#49]
Very interesting,
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AZ, USA
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Posted: 2/10/2011 11:41:25 AM EDT
[#50]
Originally Posted By thebomber:
Very interesting, Agreed, but it does not seem to have much traction on ARF, and that is interesting in itself. |
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