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Posted: 11/24/2010 9:44:02 AM EDT
Link Posted: 11/24/2010 9:46:44 AM EDT
[#1]
Good post.



I could never, ever carry that way, unless I was carrying empty chamber.  But then you risk reholstering and forgetting to unload.  Gun pointed at my balls?  No thanks.
Link Posted: 11/24/2010 9:48:17 AM EDT
[#2]
Link Posted: 11/24/2010 9:50:55 AM EDT
[#3]
Thanks!
Link Posted: 11/24/2010 9:51:41 AM EDT
[#4]
Nice write up.  Thanks.

I AIWB an M&P9c with a manual safety.  I used to do it with a G19.  Just didn't feel comfortable without the manual safety.
Link Posted: 11/24/2010 9:53:44 AM EDT
[Last Edit: VBC] [#5]
When I first started carrying, I carried a S&W 66 snubby like that.  I found it makes for a very quick draw and good concealability; however, it would get heavy on my bladder/hip after sitting for any length of time.  That might not have been as bad with a lighter gun.  Also, I couldn't imagine trying it with a square shaped automatic.

Awesome write-up.  Especially about the ND aspects.  


Link Posted: 11/24/2010 9:53:58 AM EDT
[Last Edit: jmb_nova] [#6]
Ive been doing this since i started carrying..  more comfortable to me.  You get used to the idea of having a round pointed at your balls.





Sure keeps you focused on not fucking up...  



ETA: None of my carry guns have a manual safety (Kahrs)



 
Link Posted: 11/24/2010 9:55:05 AM EDT
[#7]
I've never carried that way, but it seems bending over at the waist would be problematic.
Link Posted: 11/24/2010 9:57:07 AM EDT
[#8]
Link Posted: 11/24/2010 9:57:52 AM EDT
[#9]
Excellent post.

I have carried this way a few times. I really like it. I notice that I rarely feel the need to re-adjust etc.

It was always with a SIG p239. Never could force my self to do it with my Colt Defender (which I carry cocked and locked IWB Strong side, hip. And, no, my Glock 33 won't be carried that way.



Once again. great post.
Link Posted: 11/24/2010 9:59:55 AM EDT
[#10]
Great post J_W.
Link Posted: 11/24/2010 10:00:00 AM EDT
[Last Edit: raysheen] [#11]
I'm a big fan of the idea of IAWB, but I can't seem to make it work for me with most of my carry pieces. Sometimes I'll carry a 642 that way and it really works for me...but I can't conceal a G19/26 in that position as well. I think I'm too skinny/not built correctly for it to work with my body style. Good post.
Link Posted: 11/24/2010 10:00:13 AM EDT
[#12]
The number of unintentional discharges that have occurred during holstering are legion.


Yeah, right

Hyperbole much
Link Posted: 11/24/2010 10:02:27 AM EDT
[#13]
Link Posted: 11/24/2010 10:03:55 AM EDT
[#14]
That is the only way I can successfully conceal my .45 XD.  

Lately, I have just said screw it and prefer to open carry where appropriate.
Link Posted: 11/24/2010 10:05:38 AM EDT
[Last Edit: John_Wayne777] [#15]
Link Posted: 11/24/2010 10:07:14 AM EDT
[#16]
Good post JW.
Link Posted: 11/24/2010 10:07:54 AM EDT
[#17]
Excellent post.

A couple points:
- Having a IWB holster which maintains it's shape (Kydex) is critical.  If you have to force the pistol back into it's holster, you're more likely to engage sympathetic muscle actions.  

- This carry doesn't lend itself well to a day where you're in and out of a car.  Getting in and out of a car, covering with a seat belt becomes uncomfortable.

I carry my Smith J Frame AIWB, but generally when it's hot and I'm wearing fewer clothes.  Generally I carry a 5" 1911, with a Comptac IWB.  TShirt next to my body, holster IWB, polo shirt tucked around the pistol.  Spare magazine in my back pocket.  No issues with printing if your clothes are the right size.  IMHO.

Link Posted: 11/24/2010 10:17:47 AM EDT
[#18]
Good job
Link Posted: 11/24/2010 10:18:23 AM EDT
[#19]
Thanks for the great write-up JW. Question: Since I know you've handled the M&P45's quite a bit, thinking you owned one for some time, do you consider the thumb safety sufficient for appendix carry?
Link Posted: 11/24/2010 10:23:03 AM EDT
[#20]
Link Posted: 11/24/2010 10:28:09 AM EDT
[#21]
Never point the muzzle at something you do not want to destroy..... That's just a little to close to comfort for me. Plus It looks very awkward to sit down, or bend at the waist.. I may try it however, its hard to carry a full size XD concealed, especially since I'm on the skinnier side of the scale....
Link Posted: 11/24/2010 10:38:11 AM EDT
[#22]
If I wasn't fat, I'd seriously consider AIWB carry. For me, I have little need to re-holster quickly. I can take all day and make sure the gun has a clear shot into the holster.
Link Posted: 11/24/2010 10:46:39 AM EDT
[#23]
Excellent write-up.  The few times I AIWB, I do it with a 3 inch S&W Model 64––––much as I love Glocks, there's no way I'm toting one like that.  (Though I ain't exactly skinny, so the AIWB is not as needed for me as for some.)
Link Posted: 11/24/2010 10:49:50 AM EDT
[#24]
Thanks John_Wayne777!









I have been curious about AIWB carry for a while, I have always been hesitant because of the bait and tackle/femoral artery issue and the fact that I carry a Glock. This is an excellent treatise and I appreciate the effort in typing it out.
Link Posted: 11/24/2010 10:50:32 AM EDT
[#25]
tag
Link Posted: 11/24/2010 10:50:52 AM EDT
[Last Edit: FrankSL] [#26]
There's nothing wrong with being prepared but this guy needs to move (ETA: to a different part of town)

What's the point of the dagger to be drawn with the right hand?  That's what a Glock is for.  A dagger should be a last ditch weapon, and in that case would be drawn with the left hand.

ETA: this guy is carrying more weaponry than the average LEO and is clearly expecting to get into the shit.  Fine.  Wouldn't you wear a concealment vest in that case, too?



Link Posted: 11/24/2010 10:51:30 AM EDT
[#27]
I carry a little to the right of what you are calling the appendix and have done so for a long time.  I can't figure out how people who carry on the hip don't print like crazy.  Whenever I do that it seems horribly obvious.  I'm 6 foot and weigh 200, so I'm a little overweight but not terrible.
Link Posted: 11/24/2010 10:55:09 AM EDT
[#28]
I carry my J Frame that way all the time.  The trick is to keep the weapon holstered.  If I have to draw it, I do not reholster.  I remove the holster, insert the weapon in the holster, then put the whole shebang back where it belongs.  That sounds cumbersome and I'm sure some couch commando will find fault with it but in reality my CCW is never drawn during the course of a day.  Re-holstering is just not an issue.  I've never carried anything but a J Frame in that manner.
Link Posted: 11/24/2010 10:57:09 AM EDT
[Last Edit: goodmedicine] [#29]
Good write up JW

I don't carry that way and haven't considered it, but it's good information to put in the old brain pan.


GM
Link Posted: 11/24/2010 10:58:31 AM EDT
[#30]




Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:



Originally Posted By Danner130:

Yeah, right



Hyperbole much




No, it's not hyperbole. It's the truth. Go out and do some googling. Find out how many articles there are about police officers discharging weapons when they attempted to reholster. It happens a lot. Earlier this year an instructor friend of mine had a student shoot himself in the leg when he was reholstering after a drill.



It happens. I posted a picture that came from this site where it happened, for crying out loud.




It's my experience that this is a training issue.  Too often police firearms training revolves around speed rather than technique.  Officers, for whatever reason, are in a hurry to present from the holster and also in a hurry to re-holster.  In my courses I try to prevent this by requiring the officers to "scan and evaluate" prior to re-holster as well as mere "follow through" from the last shot.
Link Posted: 11/24/2010 10:59:02 AM EDT
[#31]
Originally Posted By FrankSL:
There's nothing wrong with being prepared but this guy needs to move.





What weapons he carries is his choice, not yours, isnt it?  

He appears to be carrying the tools he's chosen without difficulty.
Link Posted: 11/24/2010 11:03:31 AM EDT
[#32]
Originally Posted By FrankSL:
There's nothing wrong with being prepared but this guy needs to move.

What's the point of the dagger to be drawn with the right hand?  That's what a Glock is for.  A dagger should be a last ditch weapon, and in that case would be drawn with the left hand.

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/7116P7270170_Large_.JPG


Haha I was thinking exactly the same thing....

Great writeup by the OP.

I don't think I'd ever front carry if I could help it simply because it'd be really uncomfortable if you had to drive, sit, squat, etc.  The advantages in concealability/retention are definitely significant, as you point out, but just don't think it's for me.  Carry on the hip is the most comfortable and intuitive, but absolutely shitty to conceal.  I've never tried underarm, but unless you wear a jacket all the time it seems impractical (plus it's a lot of harnessware to tote around, and makes you look like a 80s TV FBI guy). Small of the back simply works best for my lifestyle (provided you're not toting a desert eagle or something), is easy to conceal under most conditions, and is perfectly adequate for the vast majority of circumstances.  That said, I won't claim to be any kind of expert (in fact, quite the opposite).
Link Posted: 11/24/2010 11:05:36 AM EDT
[#33]
Originally Posted By FrankSL:
There's nothing wrong with being prepared but this guy needs to move.

What's the point of the dagger to be drawn with the right hand?  That's what a Glock is for.  A dagger should be a last ditch weapon, and in that case would be drawn with the left hand.

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/7116P7270170_Large_.JPG


Grappler repellent...
Link Posted: 11/24/2010 11:14:40 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Plattekill] [#34]
Stop making holsters out of Kydex and start using Kevlar. No joke.

Why not, when $0.25 worth of Kydex bent by warm water for 10 seconds is selling for $90.

Thick layers of Kevlar at the muzzle end of the holster would let you do the crazy.

Humm... Kevlar Condoms may give GD a new paradigm.
Link Posted: 11/24/2010 11:18:56 AM EDT
[#35]
Any thoughts on Springfield XD appendix carry?   Now it doesn't have a manual safety (well, unless you're talking bout the optional XD45 one)...



But it does have a solid grip safety, that if you follow proper technique, you should never have to activate upon reholstering ( by placing  the thumb on the back of the slide and on the striker indicator which releases the grip safety).  
Link Posted: 11/24/2010 11:18:58 AM EDT
[#36]



Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:



Originally Posted By hondaciv:

I've never carried that way, but it seems bending over at the waist would be problematic.




It does seem like AIWB would be a pain in the balls, but when you position the holster properly it falls along the crease between your lower torso and your leg...a sort of natural pocket. You'll certainly feel the gun, but it's not so hideously uncomfortable that you can't stand it....and it's not going to print when you're bent over like you'd get with a strong side holster.


That's what worries me.



 
Link Posted: 11/24/2010 11:19:35 AM EDT
[#37]
Do guys who carry like that and have so much stuck around their waist ever sit down?

 I couldn't even get into my car like that.
Link Posted: 11/24/2010 11:20:00 AM EDT
[#38]
Very nicely prepared thread, JW...and timely. I just built a little AIWB for a Kahr PM9. Carries well, but I'm very aware that it's pointed directly at my right nut/inner thigh.
Link Posted: 11/24/2010 11:20:06 AM EDT
[#39]
Excellent post J.W.  
Link Posted: 11/24/2010 11:20:27 AM EDT
[#40]
Nuke plant security guard got a string from his jacket stuck in his holster.  When he lifted his AR off, the pistol went off.  It took a while for anyone to figure out what happened.




Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:



Originally Posted By Danner130:

Yeah, right



Hyperbole much




No, it's not hyperbole. It's the truth. Go out and do some googling. Find out how many articles there are about police officers discharging weapons when they attempted to reholster. It happens a lot. Earlier this year an instructor friend of mine had a student shoot himself in the leg when he was reholstering after a drill.



It happens. I posted a picture that came from this site where it happened, for crying out loud.






 
Link Posted: 11/24/2010 11:22:28 AM EDT
[Last Edit: John_Wayne777] [#41]
Link Posted: 11/24/2010 11:24:13 AM EDT
[#42]
Great write up.
Link Posted: 11/24/2010 11:27:43 AM EDT
[#43]



Originally Posted By FrankSL:


There's nothing wrong with being prepared but this guy needs to move.



What's the point of the dagger to be drawn with the right hand?  That's what a Glock is for.  A dagger should be a last ditch weapon, and in that case would be drawn with the left hand.



http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/7116P7270170_Large_.JPG



If he reverses it, it will hit the Glock/lay on top of it.  He can easily draw it with his left hand where it is.



 
Link Posted: 11/24/2010 11:27:57 AM EDT
[#44]
Excellent points.




Link Posted: 11/24/2010 11:33:05 AM EDT
[#45]
Link Posted: 11/24/2010 11:33:29 AM EDT
[Last Edit: kallnojoy] [#46]
Originally Posted By FrankSL:
There's nothing wrong with being prepared but this guy needs to move.

What's the point of the dagger to be drawn with the right hand?  That's what a Glock is for.  A dagger should be a last ditch weapon, and in that case would be drawn with the left hand.

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/7116P7270170_Large_.JPG


The dagger is on his center-line and could be readily accessed by either hand.

ETA: damn them penguins are QUICK!
Link Posted: 11/24/2010 11:35:53 AM EDT
[#47]
Overall, an excellent article about the pros and cons of appendix carry.  I'd like to apologize to J_W777 in advance.  I won't be around to debate the issue, I just have the time this morning to drop in and frag the thread.  This is not meant in any way to disparage any of what he's said.  I feel that appendix carry has some serious issues and you need to take a long, hard look before deciding that it's the right option for you.

I have to strongly disagree that appendix carry allows for better retention and must emphatically state that the odds of a catastrophic discharge occurring during a weapon take-away attempt are significantly higher with appendix carry.  

I have conducted and participated in numerous scenarios using sim guns with agents/officers who had varying levels of defensive tactics and retention training. By the numbers, the odds of the weapon discharging during defense are slightly above 5 to 1, appendix vs strong side over the course of 220 drills to date.  The drills were conducted during agency sanctioned training, with sworn, full-time LEOs at the city, county,state and fed levels. In order to understand the dynamics of what happens during a retention defense, YOU HAVE TO USE SIMS.  Blue guns just don't cut it.  Simply retaining physical control of the weapon is not enough. You have to ensure that it doesn't discharge INTO YOU during your attempt to retain it.

The best defense against a take-away attempt when carrying appendix style is to crab over the weapon, hunching the upper torso over the gun.  This means dropping your center of gravity and usually results in your head going lower than your aggressor's shoulders.  As you crab over, the barrel of the weapon has a tendency to rotate in towards your groin with the grip being pushed out and away.  Unless you are a trained grappler, this presents several disadvantages.  You have to pull the opponent in far closer to execute any offensive strikes/stabs, where as with a traditional strong-side carry trap-and-rotate defense you are pulling the opponent through and past your COG. Appendix carry defense means in most situations you are going to be squared-up against your opponent, a far less appealing position than being able to use cross-body leverage, the inertia of your opponent and the option of stepping off-center and stabbing him in the skull.  You become completely DEFENSIVE.  The object of weapon retention is to be able to defend the gun while still being offensive with the weak hand.  A weapon take-away immediately becomes a lethal force encounter and first and foremost in your mind should be stopping the badguy's ability to kill you.

With AIWB carry, if the weapon begins to exit the holster during the defense, the covering garment has a very good chance of being jammed into the trigger guard as you attempt to shove the weapon back in.  Further, any other foreign objects,such as the assailant's fingers, can enter the trigger guard.  You cannot accomplish a close-retention rotation and discharge the weapon with appendix carry.

In J_W's example of having to shake a smaller guy who was AIWBing all over the place to get control of the gun, what's being over-looked is the option the smaller guy would have had if he was carrying strong side.  Once you know you are losing the retention battle, rotate muzzle to contact and discharge.  It's MUCH harder to do when AIWBing because your bore is off axis to the target and you have to fight to rotate the muzzle into contact.  It's not a tactic that will work 100% of the time, but it is far, FAR easier to accomplish with strong side carry.

As an aside to concealability, when the wind blows, it's going to print the fuck out of your appendix carried blaster, whereas if you carry strong-side,  your arm provides quite a bit of effective cover for your printing firearm, unless you have spaghetti noodles for arms.

Appendix carry really only works well if you are "fit". I have a 30" waist and a 48" chest and appendix works decently well for me in so far as comfort and concealment goes, so long as I am not carrying anything much larger that a G23. On skinny guys, the weapon tends to pooch out in front, on big (and by big, I mean fat) guys, the belly is just in the way.

I will also say that I believe you should keep you movements as similar as possible and by that, I mean that if you are uniform patrol and carry your duty gun strong-side, you should carry your off-duty gun strong-side as well.  If you are a "civillian" ccwing, you need to keep your method of carry consistent from day to day.

Now, back to J_W's excellent thread.
Link Posted: 11/24/2010 11:36:03 AM EDT
[#48]
I do too much sitting for AIWB carry to be comfortable. Plus the whole...pointing at my junk/FA thing. I do have a striker fired weapon with manual safety.
Link Posted: 11/24/2010 11:37:13 AM EDT
[Last Edit: John_Wayne777] [#49]
Link Posted: 11/24/2010 11:37:33 AM EDT
[#50]
Can you sitdown with that rig?  Maybe it should be called Wang Carry instead of Appendix carry.  Kind of odd that it's named after an organ that you don't need.  
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