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Apparently NOT a 4 arms combat master...
VA, USA
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Posted: 11/24/2010 9:44:02 AM EDT
In another thread a poster asked me to start a thread dedicated to appendix carry. I've mulled it over and I think it's probably a good idea, so here goes.
Appendix carry is the carry of a pistol on the front of the waistline rather than on or around the hip. It's often referred to as "appendix" carry because most carry the pistol off the center-line of their body towards the strong hand...somewhat close to where your appendix would be. The exact placement can vary from individual to individual. Some folks like to carry very close to the centerline: Others tend to carry farther away from the centerline: It should be noted that AIWB (Appendix Inside the Waist Band) carry is nothing new. People have been doing it for quite some time. The Milt Sparks Versa-Max holster, for example (a very popular custom holster) was originally conceived of as an appendix holster. It's been used by a lot of folks over the years because of the advantages that appendix carry brings to the table: 1. Reduction of printing –– Anyone who has tried to conceal a real handgun eventually encounters the problem of printing. AIWB dramatically reduces printing because it places the entire height of the pistol (measured from the bottom of the inserted mag to the top of the rear sight) along the widest part of your body. Hip carry places the entire height of the pistol along what is usually the narrowest profile of your body: The skinnier you are, the more difficult it is for you to carry a gun on the hip without printing. With a good strong side holster (like the Raven Concealment Phantom) you can minimize the printing problem, but for some body types the only answer is to carry a pistol that has a very short grip like the baby Glocks or the M&P Compact pistols. With appendix carry, however, you can pack a much larger pistol without printing. As an example, I know of a fairly small federal agent (weighs about 160) who carries a full-sized railed 1911 invisibly in an AIWB holster. He would be hard pressed to carry it on the hip without printing. My personal AIWB testimony is that I've packed an HK45 with the factory mag baseplates (which are unreasonably large) AIWB without printing. That's a big gun, folks. Generally I can conceal even a really big handgun like that under just a t-shirt invisibly when carrying AIWB. I generally carry under an untucked polo shirt. 2. Retention –– It is easier to defend against a weapon grab when the weapon is in the front of your body than it is to defend against a weapon grab when the weapon is on your hip. If you hunch over you can actually use your upper torso to wedge the gun back down into the holster if someone is trying to grab it. You can maintain an aggressive posture that keeps you on your feet and gives you options. As a personal testimony, during some training this year the class worked on weapon defense and I was paired with a smaller fellow who had to defend his AIWB carried "pistol" from me. I literally had to pick the guy up off the ground and shake him up and down violently to get control of the "gun". (Blue gun) With a strong side holster I would have been able to wrest the gun from his control much more easily, but with the gun carried AIWB I had to throw him all over the place to get control of his pistol. 3. Access –– AIWB carry places the gun in a much more accessible location from practically any conceivable position. Whether you're sitting down in a vehicle with your seatbelt on or you are face down on the ground with some big dude on top of you, it's still relatively easy to access the firearm. This is one of the reasons why the MMA/Ju-Jitsu types who carry guns are fond of AIWB carry of small guns like J frames. They can access them even if they are being totally dominated by a bigger/stronger/more skilled/luckier attacker who has them on the ground. With a strong-side holster it is easier to trap the weapon so that the person carrying it can't draw the gun. I've known police officers, for instance, that have been in a side of the road wrestling match with much larger individuals who would either trap the gun by holding the officer's gun-side on the ground, or by pressing themselves onto the officer's holster to prevent the ability to draw the weapon. The solution to those situations was either to have backup arrive in a timely manner or draw a secondary weapon, screw it into the bad guy's head, and pull the trigger until he stops moving. With the weapon in the center line of the body it is much more difficult to prevent it from being drawn. Even if you have somebody in a bear hug odds are that they can work their arms to their centerline and get the weapon out. 4. Speed –– Many find that having the weapon on the front of their waistline rather than the hip area allows them to have a faster first shot on target from the draw. It also makes clearing a closed-front concealment garment a bit easier since the weak hand doesn't have to reach as far around the body with AIWB as with strong side carry. There is, of course, no free lunch here. AIWB has some significant advantages, but it also has a really significant disadvantage: Death or dismemberment –– AIWB carry places the muzzle of the weapon in an area of the body where, should a round be fired, it is likely to hit either your genitals or your femoral artery. If you put a round into your femoral and don't happen to have a properly stocked blowout kit literally on your person with somebody who has been trained to at least the level of a combat lifesaver right next to you at the moment it happens, you will probably bleed out before help can arrive. Re-read those sentences. The primary danger zone with AIWB carry is when you are holstering or reholstering the weapon...especially if you are on the range practicing. The number of unintentional discharges that have occurred during holstering are legion. An example was posted on ARFCOM a while back: With strong side carry generally the wounds from an unintentional discharge of a weapon while holstering are usually minor and easily survivable. Unfortunately because of where the muzzle is going with AIWB carry the consequences of an unintentional discharge will probably be much more serious. This, of course, begs the question of why gunshots happen during reholstering in the first place. It's very tempting to insist that the people who have ended up with a discharge while attempting to reholster are drooling morons, and that since you are presumably not a drooling moron it's not really something you have to concern yourself with. That is a ridiculous mindset. The people who have had an unintentional discharge are people. There isn't a single person reading this that is immune to being human. (If you're a cyborg, feel free to ignore me) I'm willing to bet that every single person who is reading this has at some point in their lives left their keys in the car or locked themselves out of the house, or they've forgotten something important, or they've run a stop sign because they weren't paying attention, or they've missed a turn, etc. The simple truth is that human beings are easily distracted and are prone to complacency. We get stupid with dangerous stuff on a regular basis and if you think that you're incapable of getting stupid (or just plain unlucky) when there's a gun in your hand then you are kidding yourself and it is only a matter of time before you fuck up. Compounding the human factor is the popularity of striker-fired carry guns that have a 5-7 pound trigger and no manual safety. Whether anyone wishes to acknowledge it or not, these weapons have a very narrow margin for error. I'm sure somebody's knickers are going to be twisted up by that statement, but it's the objective truth. That doesn't mean the gun is "unsafe" or that it's unfit for carry...it's simply an acknowledgement of the simple reality that if you fuck up with a gun like a Glock or an M&P (and I own, carry, and use both) you will probably end up firing a shot when you don't mean to. It's not just trigger fingers that set them off, either. I know of several documented cases where law enforcement officers have ended up with a discharge because the thumb snap from their departmentally mandated holster or the drawstrings from their departmentally mandated jacket or the lanyard from their departmentally mandated flashlight has ended up in the trigger guard of their weapon as they attempted to reholster. I've personally narrowly avoided a loud noise because of a flashlight lanyard that worked its way into the trigger guard of my M&P as I attempted to reholster during a low-light class. If you combine a carry method that has drastic consequences if you have a bad day with a weapon that has the narrowest margin of error when it comes to reholstering, then you are setting yourself up for disaster. Pistols that have a hammer or a manual safety offer a much larger margin of error when it comes to reholstering. A hammer-fired pistol, for instance, allows you to place your thumb on the back of the hammer. When done properly this prevents the weapon from firing. With proper technique you can literally put your full body weight on the trigger of the weapon and the hammer will not nove even with all that force applied. I don't recommend running out and trying it because there's a significant chance you'll break your gun. An instructor friend of mine demonstrated this with an HK45 and he managed to bend the trigger bar without the hammer moving a single iota. If you are carrying appendix and Murphy visits you as you are reholstering and your shirt bunches inside the trigger guard of your weapon, the end result will be that you just reholster your shirt if you have your thumb on the hammer keeping it from moving. With a striker-fired weapon you can end up with a discharge in either your genitals or your femoral artery. This is the big reason why I've switched from the M&P (a pistol I like quite a bit) to an H&K P30 with the LEM system. I spend a lot of time on the range training and I try to do as much as I can from the carry gear I use every day. I decided that the odds were going to catch up with me one day and that I would need to abandon AIWB altogether or buy a gun that allowed me to train with greater safety. Since I've grown to love the benefits of AIWB I made the decision to switch to a new gun. This safety concern is my primary reason for starting this discussion. I see a lot of discussion out there that seems to assume that all pistols are equal from a safety standpoint, and that's just not true. No handgun is guaranteed to be "safe" if an idiot is handling it, but that doesn't change the reality that some handguns do offer a wider margin of error than others. In training I've also seen countless individuals who seem to think they are required to reholster the pistol like they are trying to drive it through the earth's crust or with severely inappropriate speed because they think a fast draw means throwing the gun back in the holster as fast as possible. Combine all of that with the growing popularity of AIWB and there's a significant chance that in the relatively near future somebody is going to fuck up and kill themselves because they didn't stop for a minute and rationally think through the potential downsides to their gear. Some will inevitably be dismissive because they know better than everybody else and because it won't happen to them....but at least the sane people who are willing to think about things rationally might have their eyes opened to something they hadn't considered before. So that there is no misunderstanding here, I'll say this as plainly as possible: I DO NOT advise carrying a striker-fired pistol with no manual safety AIWB. I don't advise AIWB carry at all until you've given it as much consideration as you would give the decision to pick up a live cobra. If you ultimately make the decision to try AIWB, I strongly encourage doing so with a weapon that has a hammer you can block or a reliable manual safety. So let's say to this point you've been informed about the benefits of AIWB and you now have a healthy enough respect for the integrity of your wedding tackle and your femoral artery that you've decided you'll use a handgun with a larger margin of error as your AIWB handgun...what holster do you use? That's somewhat tricky. AIWB is 75% about finding the right holster. There are lots of holsters out there marketed as "appendix" holsters that really aren't. A lot of them are just other holsters with a neutral cant and a belt loop, which presents severe comfort problems because they have too much material on the underside of the gun, which just makes the holster dig into your anatomy in an unpleasant way. A really well engineered holster makes AIWB comfortable and practical. For examples of "well engineered" holsters, look at the Custom Carry Concepts "Shaggy" or the Garrity In-Victus. The other 25% of AIWB is finding where exactly on the wasitline it works for you. There is a "sweet spot" which takes experimentation to locate. The difference between carrying with perfect comfort and a truly miserable experience can be as little as 1/2 an inch difference in placement on the waistline. Using a pistol that has a relatively short length (measured from the rear-most part of the slide to the front-most) helps as well. I've found the CCC "Shaggy" holster to be quite comfortable. I'm currently carrying my P30 in a CCC "Looper" holster I bummed from a friend because rich at CCC is still swamped with orders and hasn't shipped my P30 "Shaggy" holster yet. Even with the older Looper holster the P30 rides AIWB in perfect comfort all day. Hopefully all of that is enough to at least get an intelligent conversation going about AIWB. I'm not crusading for AIWB here. I personally like it quite a bit, but that doesn't mean it is an ideal method of carry for everybody. To be perfectly honest, I don't advise people to carry AIWB because of the big nasty risk that's there when it comes time to reholster. I've taken steps to minimize that risk (not only a hammer-fired gun, but also a reholster technique that ensures a fired round won't hit me in the johnson or the femoral) but even those are not a guarantee. I would only recommend it for people with a lot of skill and experience. ...which in and of itself can turn it into something the "cool kids" do and therefore results in imitation without understanding. Thus I'll say again: IF you fuck up with AIWB, you will die. So the "cool kid" nonsense should be nipped in the bud. |
It is substantially true that virtue or morality is a necessary spring of popular government. - George Washington
If you don't put down that gun and you blink, you will die in total darkness. - Jelly Bryce |
Good post.
I could never, ever carry that way, unless I was carrying empty chamber. But then you risk reholstering and forgetting to unload. Gun pointed at my balls? No thanks. |
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Life is a storm, my young friend. You will bask in the sunlight one moment, be shattered on the rocks the next. What makes you a man is what you do when that storm comes.
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Apparently NOT a 4 arms combat master...
VA, USA
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Originally Posted By JonnyVain:
Good post. I could never, ever carry that way, unless I was carrying empty chamber. But then you risk reholstering and forgetting to unload. Gun pointed at my balls? No thanks. ...and I want to stress this at the outset: That's a perfectly OK decision. There's absolutely nothing wrong with looking at AIWB and deciding that it exceeds your personal limits in regards to safety. |
It is substantially true that virtue or morality is a necessary spring of popular government. - George Washington
If you don't put down that gun and you blink, you will die in total darkness. - Jelly Bryce |
Thanks!
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Nice write up. Thanks.
I AIWB an M&P9c with a manual safety. I used to do it with a G19. Just didn't feel comfortable without the manual safety. |
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-Nemo me impune lacesset.
-Beware the fury of a patient man. -Thousands and thousands of laws....All for just ten commandments. -"alot" is not a word. |
When I first started carrying, I carried a S&W 66 snubby like that. I found it makes for a very quick draw and good concealability; however, it would get heavy on my bladder/hip after sitting for any length of time. That might not have been as bad with a lighter gun. Also, I couldn't imagine trying it with a square shaped automatic.
Awesome write-up. Especially about the ND aspects. |
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Ive been doing this since i started carrying.. more comfortable to me. You get used to the idea of having a round pointed at your balls.
Sure keeps you focused on not fucking up... ETA: None of my carry guns have a manual safety (Kahrs) |
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"Semper Fi" 0352
Freedom is never free. |
I've never carried that way, but it seems bending over at the waist would be problematic.
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History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people.
~Martin Luther King, Jr. |
Apparently NOT a 4 arms combat master...
VA, USA
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Originally Posted By hondaciv:
I've never carried that way, but it seems bending over at the waist would be problematic. It does seem like AIWB would be a pain in the balls, but when you position the holster properly it falls along the crease between your lower torso and your leg...a sort of natural pocket. You'll certainly feel the gun, but it's not so hideously uncomfortable that you can't stand it....and it's not going to print when you're bent over like you'd get with a strong side holster. |
It is substantially true that virtue or morality is a necessary spring of popular government. - George Washington
If you don't put down that gun and you blink, you will die in total darkness. - Jelly Bryce |
Excellent post.
I have carried this way a few times. I really like it. I notice that I rarely feel the need to re-adjust etc. It was always with a SIG p239. Never could force my self to do it with my Colt Defender (which I carry cocked and locked IWB Strong side, hip. And, no, my Glock 33 won't be carried that way. Once again. great post. |
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What the French Toast!!!
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Great post J_W.
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Dude....while there are many uncertainties in life, I think I can say without fear of contradiction that Jesus does not want or need the assistance of the insane clown posse. - John_Wayne777
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I'm a big fan of the idea of IAWB, but I can't seem to make it work for me with most of my carry pieces. Sometimes I'll carry a 642 that way and it really works for me...but I can't conceal a G19/26 in that position as well. I think I'm too skinny/not built correctly for it to work with my body style. Good post.
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The number of unintentional discharges that have occurred during holstering are legion.
Yeah, right Hyperbole much |
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"This is an environment of welcoming, and... you should just get the hell out of here!"
- Michael Scott |
Apparently NOT a 4 arms combat master...
VA, USA
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Originally Posted By raysheen:
I'm a big fan of the idea of IAWB, but I can't seem to make it work for me with most of my carry pieces. Sometimes I'll carry a 642 that way and it really works for me...but I can't conceal a G19/26 in that position as well. I think I'm too skinny/not built correctly for it to work with my body style. Good post. Actually the skinnier you are generally the better it works for you. As I said, successful AIWB is 75% about the holster and 25% about where you place it. A good AIWB holster (and most labeled as AIWB in my experience are not good) positioned properly generally works well for all sorts of body types. The first time I tried AIWB I thought it was the most uncomfortable thing I'd ever seen, but that's because the holster I was using sucked. Once I tried a good holster I found out what all the fuss was about. |
It is substantially true that virtue or morality is a necessary spring of popular government. - George Washington
If you don't put down that gun and you blink, you will die in total darkness. - Jelly Bryce |
That is the only way I can successfully conceal my .45 XD.
Lately, I have just said screw it and prefer to open carry where appropriate. |
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Every man dies, but not every man lives
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Apparently NOT a 4 arms combat master...
VA, USA
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Originally Posted By Danner130:
Yeah, right Hyperbole much No, it's not hyperbole. It's the truth. Go out and do some googling. Find out how many articles there are about police officers discharging weapons when they attempted to reholster. It happens a lot. Earlier this year an instructor friend of mine had a student shoot himself in the leg when he was reholstering after a drill. It happens. I posted a picture that came from this site where it happened, for crying out loud. |
It is substantially true that virtue or morality is a necessary spring of popular government. - George Washington
If you don't put down that gun and you blink, you will die in total darkness. - Jelly Bryce |
Good post JW.
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Excellent post.
A couple points: - Having a IWB holster which maintains it's shape (Kydex) is critical. If you have to force the pistol back into it's holster, you're more likely to engage sympathetic muscle actions. - This carry doesn't lend itself well to a day where you're in and out of a car. Getting in and out of a car, covering with a seat belt becomes uncomfortable. I carry my Smith J Frame AIWB, but generally when it's hot and I'm wearing fewer clothes. Generally I carry a 5" 1911, with a Comptac IWB. TShirt next to my body, holster IWB, polo shirt tucked around the pistol. Spare magazine in my back pocket. No issues with printing if your clothes are the right size. IMHO. |
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Good job
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Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum
Proud Member - "Team Ranstad" - The Fantastic Bastards! |
Because somebody has to give you coordinates...
SC, USA
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Thanks for the great write-up JW. Question: Since I know you've handled the M&P45's quite a bit, thinking you owned one for some time, do you consider the thumb safety sufficient for appendix carry?
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Apparently NOT a 4 arms combat master...
VA, USA
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Originally Posted By tabraha:
Thanks for the great write-up JW. Question: Since I know you've handled the M&P45's quite a bit, thinking you owned one for some time, do you consider the thumb safety sufficient for appendix carry? It's better than nothing. The thumb safety on the M&P blocks rear-ward movement of the trigger. If it's engaged then it should prevent problems. I would advise keeping upward pressure on the safety during the reholstering process just to ensure it doesn't get bumped off-safe. |
It is substantially true that virtue or morality is a necessary spring of popular government. - George Washington
If you don't put down that gun and you blink, you will die in total darkness. - Jelly Bryce |
Never point the muzzle at something you do not want to destroy..... That's just a little to close to comfort for me. Plus It looks very awkward to sit down, or bend at the waist.. I may try it however, its hard to carry a full size XD concealed, especially since I'm on the skinnier side of the scale....
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-Certain misery is better than the misery of uncertainty-
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If I wasn't fat, I'd seriously consider AIWB carry. For me, I have little need to re-holster quickly. I can take all day and make sure the gun has a clear shot into the holster.
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"Sorry I'm late. I had to stop by the wax museum again and give the finger to FDR." - Cotton Hill
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Excellent write-up. The few times I AIWB, I do it with a 3 inch S&W Model 64––––much as I love Glocks, there's no way I'm toting one like that. (Though I ain't exactly skinny, so the AIWB is not as needed for me as for some.)
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"I just can't put the words together, you've outstupided the internet." MACD
This post contains personal opinion only and should not be construed as information released in an official capacity. |
Thanks John_Wayne777!
I have been curious about AIWB carry for a while, I have always been hesitant because of the bait and tackle/femoral artery issue and the fact that I carry a Glock. This is an excellent treatise and I appreciate the effort in typing it out. |
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"Teach them politics and war so their sons may study medicine and math in order to give their children a right to study painting, poetry, music and architecture..." ---John Adams
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tag
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"America is not at War.
The Marine Corps is at War; America is at the mall." Author Unknown |
I carry a little to the right of what you are calling the appendix and have done so for a long time. I can't figure out how people who carry on the hip don't print like crazy. Whenever I do that it seems horribly obvious. I'm 6 foot and weigh 200, so I'm a little overweight but not terrible.
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I carry my J Frame that way all the time. The trick is to keep the weapon holstered. If I have to draw it, I do not reholster. I remove the holster, insert the weapon in the holster, then put the whole shebang back where it belongs. That sounds cumbersome and I'm sure some couch commando will find fault with it but in reality my CCW is never drawn during the course of a day. Re-holstering is just not an issue. I've never carried anything but a J Frame in that manner.
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I'm more fun around a campfire than a keyboard
MN, USA
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Good write up JW
I don't carry that way and haven't considered it, but it's good information to put in the old brain pan. GM |
Proud father of enemy ass-kicker and destroyer of evil.
No medicine anymore: Just busy mice doing busy mouse things. |
Originally Posted By John_Wayne777: Originally Posted By Danner130: Yeah, right Hyperbole much No, it's not hyperbole. It's the truth. Go out and do some googling. Find out how many articles there are about police officers discharging weapons when they attempted to reholster. It happens a lot. Earlier this year an instructor friend of mine had a student shoot himself in the leg when he was reholstering after a drill. It happens. I posted a picture that came from this site where it happened, for crying out loud. It's my experience that this is a training issue. Too often police firearms training revolves around speed rather than technique. Officers, for whatever reason, are in a hurry to present from the holster and also in a hurry to re-holster. In my courses I try to prevent this by requiring the officers to "scan and evaluate" prior to re-holster as well as mere "follow through" from the last shot. |
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The opinions above are my own and do not represent any entity.
When in doubt, there is no doubt. That's the first thing they teach you. Where did you get a hand grenade, Brick? I don't know. |
Originally Posted By FrankSL:
There's nothing wrong with being prepared but this guy needs to move. What weapons he carries is his choice, not yours, isnt it? He appears to be carrying the tools he's chosen without difficulty. |
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"I bring all of this up for you to differentiate me from the guy that repairs laser jet printers during the day, secretly watches Sponge Bob during the evening and spends half the night arguing with other assclowns on AR15.com."
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Originally Posted By FrankSL:
There's nothing wrong with being prepared but this guy needs to move. What's the point of the dagger to be drawn with the right hand? That's what a Glock is for. A dagger should be a last ditch weapon, and in that case would be drawn with the left hand. http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/7116P7270170_Large_.JPG Haha I was thinking exactly the same thing.... Great writeup by the OP. I don't think I'd ever front carry if I could help it simply because it'd be really uncomfortable if you had to drive, sit, squat, etc. The advantages in concealability/retention are definitely significant, as you point out, but just don't think it's for me. Carry on the hip is the most comfortable and intuitive, but absolutely shitty to conceal. I've never tried underarm, but unless you wear a jacket all the time it seems impractical (plus it's a lot of harnessware to tote around, and makes you look like a 80s TV FBI guy). Small of the back simply works best for my lifestyle (provided you're not toting a desert eagle or something), is easy to conceal under most conditions, and is perfectly adequate for the vast majority of circumstances. That said, I won't claim to be any kind of expert (in fact, quite the opposite). |
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Originally Posted By FrankSL:
There's nothing wrong with being prepared but this guy needs to move. What's the point of the dagger to be drawn with the right hand? That's what a Glock is for. A dagger should be a last ditch weapon, and in that case would be drawn with the left hand. http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/7116P7270170_Large_.JPG Grappler repellent... |
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Stop making holsters out of Kydex and start using Kevlar. No joke.
Why not, when $0.25 worth of Kydex bent by warm water for 10 seconds is selling for $90. Thick layers of Kevlar at the muzzle end of the holster would let you do the crazy. Humm... Kevlar Condoms may give GD a new paradigm. |
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Any thoughts on Springfield XD appendix carry? Now it doesn't have a manual safety (well, unless you're talking bout the optional XD45 one)...
But it does have a solid grip safety, that if you follow proper technique, you should never have to activate upon reholstering ( by placing the thumb on the back of the slide and on the striker indicator which releases the grip safety). |
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"I cannot undertake to lay my finger on that article of the Constitution which granted a right to Congress of expending, on objects of benevolence, the money of their constituents."
--James Madison |
Originally Posted By John_Wayne777: Originally Posted By hondaciv: I've never carried that way, but it seems bending over at the waist would be problematic. It does seem like AIWB would be a pain in the balls, but when you position the holster properly it falls along the crease between your lower torso and your leg...a sort of natural pocket. You'll certainly feel the gun, but it's not so hideously uncomfortable that you can't stand it....and it's not going to print when you're bent over like you'd get with a strong side holster. That's what worries me. |
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Life is a storm, my young friend. You will bask in the sunlight one moment, be shattered on the rocks the next. What makes you a man is what you do when that storm comes.
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Do guys who carry like that and have so much stuck around their waist ever sit down?
I couldn't even get into my car like that. |
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Very nicely prepared thread, JW...and timely. I just built a little AIWB for a Kahr PM9. Carries well, but I'm very aware that it's pointed directly at my right nut/inner thigh.
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Ronnie
Do your damnedest in an ostentatious manner all the time. - George S. Patton |
Excellent post J.W.
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John Wayne is as American as Baseball, Apple Pie and Chevrolet.
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Nuke plant security guard got a string from his jacket stuck in his holster. When he lifted his AR off, the pistol went off. It took a while for anyone to figure out what happened.
Originally Posted By John_Wayne777: Originally Posted By Danner130: Yeah, right Hyperbole much No, it's not hyperbole. It's the truth. Go out and do some googling. Find out how many articles there are about police officers discharging weapons when they attempted to reholster. It happens a lot. Earlier this year an instructor friend of mine had a student shoot himself in the leg when he was reholstering after a drill. It happens. I posted a picture that came from this site where it happened, for crying out loud. |
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Life is a storm, my young friend. You will bask in the sunlight one moment, be shattered on the rocks the next. What makes you a man is what you do when that storm comes.
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Apparently NOT a 4 arms combat master...
VA, USA
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Originally Posted By mattfoley:
Any thoughts on Springfield XD appendix carry? Now it doesn't have a manual safety (well, unless you're talking bout the optional XD45 one)... But it does have a solid grip safety, that if you follow proper technique, you should never have to activate upon reholstering ( by placing the thumb on the back of the slide and on the striker indicator which releases the grip safety). The grip safety of the XD would seem to be an advantage, but only if you were sure you were absolutely clear of it when the weapon was going back into the holster. In my experience most people maintain their firing grip for a long enough period of time that it wouldn't be much help. If you get your thumb on the back of the slide it should be enough to clear the grip safety. Originally Posted By outofbattery:
Do guys who carry like that and have so much stuck around their waist ever sit down? I couldn't even get into my car like that. I'm not the guy in the picture, but on my waist I carry my P30, a Cold Steel Baveheart, two spare mags and a cell phone....and nobody knows it. Whether I'm walking around or behind a desk or in a car it works fine. Buckling the belt on the side rather than at the front helps as well. |
It is substantially true that virtue or morality is a necessary spring of popular government. - George Washington
If you don't put down that gun and you blink, you will die in total darkness. - Jelly Bryce |
Great write up.
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"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably." - Captain Picard, TNG: "The Drumhead"
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Originally Posted By FrankSL: There's nothing wrong with being prepared but this guy needs to move. What's the point of the dagger to be drawn with the right hand? That's what a Glock is for. A dagger should be a last ditch weapon, and in that case would be drawn with the left hand. http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/7116P7270170_Large_.JPG If he reverses it, it will hit the Glock/lay on top of it. He can easily draw it with his left hand where it is. |
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Excellent points.
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"Some People Are Like Slinkies. They're Not Really Good For Anything, But They Bring a Smile To Your Face When Pushed Down The Stairs."
http://referenceonly.wordpress.com/ |
Originally Posted By FrankSL: There's nothing wrong with being prepared but this guy needs to move. What's the point of the dagger to be drawn with the right hand? That's what a Glock is for. A dagger should be a last ditch weapon, and in that case would be drawn with the left hand. http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/7116P7270170_Large_.JPG Needs to move? Wtf does that mean? The knife might be position that way to draw into a reverse grip with the left hand.
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Originally Posted By FrankSL:
There's nothing wrong with being prepared but this guy needs to move. What's the point of the dagger to be drawn with the right hand? That's what a Glock is for. A dagger should be a last ditch weapon, and in that case would be drawn with the left hand. http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/7116P7270170_Large_.JPG The dagger is on his center-line and could be readily accessed by either hand. ETA: damn them penguins are QUICK! |
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Overall, an excellent article about the pros and cons of appendix carry. I'd like to apologize to J_W777 in advance. I won't be around to debate the issue, I just have the time this morning to drop in and frag the thread. This is not meant in any way to disparage any of what he's said. I feel that appendix carry has some serious issues and you need to take a long, hard look before deciding that it's the right option for you.
I have to strongly disagree that appendix carry allows for better retention and must emphatically state that the odds of a catastrophic discharge occurring during a weapon take-away attempt are significantly higher with appendix carry. I have conducted and participated in numerous scenarios using sim guns with agents/officers who had varying levels of defensive tactics and retention training. By the numbers, the odds of the weapon discharging during defense are slightly above 5 to 1, appendix vs strong side over the course of 220 drills to date. The drills were conducted during agency sanctioned training, with sworn, full-time LEOs at the city, county,state and fed levels. In order to understand the dynamics of what happens during a retention defense, YOU HAVE TO USE SIMS. Blue guns just don't cut it. Simply retaining physical control of the weapon is not enough. You have to ensure that it doesn't discharge INTO YOU during your attempt to retain it. The best defense against a take-away attempt when carrying appendix style is to crab over the weapon, hunching the upper torso over the gun. This means dropping your center of gravity and usually results in your head going lower than your aggressor's shoulders. As you crab over, the barrel of the weapon has a tendency to rotate in towards your groin with the grip being pushed out and away. Unless you are a trained grappler, this presents several disadvantages. You have to pull the opponent in far closer to execute any offensive strikes/stabs, where as with a traditional strong-side carry trap-and-rotate defense you are pulling the opponent through and past your COG. Appendix carry defense means in most situations you are going to be squared-up against your opponent, a far less appealing position than being able to use cross-body leverage, the inertia of your opponent and the option of stepping off-center and stabbing him in the skull. You become completely DEFENSIVE. The object of weapon retention is to be able to defend the gun while still being offensive with the weak hand. A weapon take-away immediately becomes a lethal force encounter and first and foremost in your mind should be stopping the badguy's ability to kill you. With AIWB carry, if the weapon begins to exit the holster during the defense, the covering garment has a very good chance of being jammed into the trigger guard as you attempt to shove the weapon back in. Further, any other foreign objects,such as the assailant's fingers, can enter the trigger guard. You cannot accomplish a close-retention rotation and discharge the weapon with appendix carry. In J_W's example of having to shake a smaller guy who was AIWBing all over the place to get control of the gun, what's being over-looked is the option the smaller guy would have had if he was carrying strong side. Once you know you are losing the retention battle, rotate muzzle to contact and discharge. It's MUCH harder to do when AIWBing because your bore is off axis to the target and you have to fight to rotate the muzzle into contact. It's not a tactic that will work 100% of the time, but it is far, FAR easier to accomplish with strong side carry. As an aside to concealability, when the wind blows, it's going to print the fuck out of your appendix carried blaster, whereas if you carry strong-side, your arm provides quite a bit of effective cover for your printing firearm, unless you have spaghetti noodles for arms. Appendix carry really only works well if you are "fit". I have a 30" waist and a 48" chest and appendix works decently well for me in so far as comfort and concealment goes, so long as I am not carrying anything much larger that a G23. On skinny guys, the weapon tends to pooch out in front, on big (and by big, I mean fat) guys, the belly is just in the way. I will also say that I believe you should keep you movements as similar as possible and by that, I mean that if you are uniform patrol and carry your duty gun strong-side, you should carry your off-duty gun strong-side as well. If you are a "civillian" ccwing, you need to keep your method of carry consistent from day to day. Now, back to J_W's excellent thread. |
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I do too much sitting for AIWB carry to be comfortable. Plus the whole...pointing at my junk/FA thing. I do have a striker fired weapon with manual safety.
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Apparently NOT a 4 arms combat master...
VA, USA
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Originally Posted By Aimless:
Needs to move? Wtf does that mean? The knife might be position that way to draw into a reverse grip with the left hand. ...and there are some schools of thought that hold drawing a fixed blade knife and using it is to be preferred at certain ranges/in certain circumstances. I carry a fixed blade in a similar fashion after looking around and noticing how many serious grappling/empty hands/ECQC experts carry small fixed blades that way. Originally Posted By Angelshare1:
Can you sitdown with that rig? Maybe it should be called Wang Carry instead of Appendix carry. Kind of odd that it's named after an organ that you don't need. I'm carrying most of what's pictured in that picture (again, not me) right now as I type this. I'm perfectly comfortable. |
It is substantially true that virtue or morality is a necessary spring of popular government. - George Washington
If you don't put down that gun and you blink, you will die in total darkness. - Jelly Bryce |
Can you sitdown with that rig? Maybe it should be called Wang Carry instead of Appendix carry. Kind of odd that it's named after an organ that you don't need.
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