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Laryisgary
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Posted: 11/3/2010 9:46:07 PM
I'm curious to get other members perspective on what the difference is between Military and civilian firearms. Legislation aside what is the difference?
Blackhawk101
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Posted: 11/3/2010 10:08:59 PM
Fun Switch
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Posted: 11/3/2010 10:10:35 PM
One is much cheaper than the other.
Plumbata
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Posted: 11/3/2010 10:10:54 PM
The civilian guns have not been taken apart 6,000 times, cleaned with Pine-Sol and a shoe brush, then put back together.
steve-oh
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Posted: 11/3/2010 10:11:22 PM
Originally Posted By Plumbata:
The civilian guns have not been taken apart 6,000 times, cleaned with Pine-Sol and a shoe brush, then put back together.


so true.
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0699TeufelHnd
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Posted: 11/3/2010 10:12:03 PM
Originally Posted By Plumbata:
The civilian guns have not been taken apart 6,000 times, cleaned with Pine-Sol and a shoe brush, then put back together.




EvanWilliams
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Posted: 11/3/2010 10:12:08 PM
LIke NASCAR and a Ford Focus.
One can go much faster.
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POW-MIAneverforget
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Posted: 11/3/2010 10:13:43 PM
Most civilian owned firearms are never run as hard as military arms.

Most of the .mil stuff also has a fun switch
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Posted: 11/3/2010 10:14:22 PM
The ammo is "free" for one and not free for the other.
I do not have a license to kill, but I do have a learner's permit.

I feel like I'm living the movie "Idiocracy" with this administration.

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Posted: 11/3/2010 10:14:56 PM
[Last Edit: 11/3/2010 10:24:10 PM by GiggleSmith]
Originally Posted By Blackhawk101:
Fun Switch

Yep.
Originally Posted By RDP:
One is much cheaper than the other.

Yep.
Originally Posted By Plumbata:
The civilian guns have not been taken apart 6,000 times, cleaned with Pine-Sol and a shoe brush, then put back together.

Semi-Yep.



Edit to say: I'm going to keep re-editing this until the (*)&)(*^&)(*^&)(&^() text in in the correct boxes.
And I had to get out of the WYSIWYG system to do it.
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Posted: 11/3/2010 10:15:10 PM
[Last Edit: 11/3/2010 10:15:38 PM by Fearlessleader01]

Originally Posted By Plumbata:
The civilian guns have not been taken apart 6,000 times, cleaned with Pine-Sol and a shoe brush, then put back together.

Other than the fun switch I'd say this is the big one.

Ever compare a military issued M9 with a civilian M9/92FS?

The military one rattles, the finish is so worn the pistol is brown or silver, its all dinged to shit and the bore looks like hell.

And thats one thats never left the CONUS or been abused in the field.
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ar154all
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Posted: 11/3/2010 10:18:00 PM
One you get on loan; one you own
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Beamy
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Posted: 11/3/2010 10:21:00 PM
Originally Posted By 0699TeufelHnd:
Originally Posted By Plumbata:
The civilian guns have not been taken apart 6,000 times, cleaned with Pine-Sol and a shoe brush, then put back together.






pretty much sums it up
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Posted: 11/3/2010 10:23:49 PM
[Last Edit: 11/3/2010 10:24:06 PM by Cypher15]

Originally Posted By ar154all:
One you get on loan; one you own

you know... the mil would be smart to allow the option of buying their issue rifle once they retire or leave. if only it werent for those stupid brady bitches.
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Posted: 11/3/2010 10:25:12 PM
If you're inquiry is in regards to design, go field strip both an M14 and a Remington 7400. Fire 1,000 rounds through each, then field strip them both again.
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ar154all
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Posted: 11/3/2010 10:25:39 PM
Originally Posted By Cypher15:

Originally Posted By ar154all:
One you get on loan; one you own

you know... the mil would be smart to allow the option of buying their issue rifle once they retire or leave. if only it werent for those stupid brady bitches.


@$600 should cover replacement and shipping....
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Posted: 11/3/2010 10:26:17 PM
Mine are better.
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Madcap72
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Posted: 11/3/2010 10:26:24 PM
Originally Posted By Laryisgary:
I'm curious to get other members perspective on what the difference is between Military and civilian firearms. Legislation aside what is the difference?


3 echelons of maintenance.
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USCGTACLET
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Posted: 11/3/2010 10:27:28 PM
Originally Posted By Plumbata:
The civilian guns have not been taken apart 6,000 times, cleaned with Pine-Sol and a shoe brush, then put back together.


hey, you've never had to tur them in to the whiney ass gunners mate!

mostly the fun switch, round count, and overall condition IMHO
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Posted: 11/3/2010 10:28:29 PM
An interesting thing to think about is that after the Civil War up until the 1890's, civilians and law enforcement officers usually had more firepower at their disposal than the US Army at least in terms of rate of fire and the like.
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Posted: 11/3/2010 10:28:53 PM
[Last Edit: 11/3/2010 10:32:26 PM by Mosin_Nagant]

Originally Posted By Blackhawk101:
Fun Switch







Vs.






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DaveM4P99
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Posted: 11/3/2010 10:29:33 PM
[Last Edit: 11/3/2010 10:31:26 PM by DaveM4P99]
Too broad of a question.

Do you mean what is the difference between a civilian AR15 and a Military M16 / M4 ? For the most part, it's really that the Military versions are fully automatic, meaning that the gun keeps firing as you hold down the trigger. Civilian versions are semi-automatic, meaning you have to pull the trigger each time for it to fire each round.

Or a Beretta 92fs and a Military M9 pistol? They are pretty much the same pistol.

Or the difference between a Remington 700 and a Military M24 sniper rifle? Also pretty much the same thing.

Then there are a lot of military weapons like the M240 and M249 (SAWs - Squad Automatic Weapons) that are not civilian legal, for the most part.

You may hear that military weapons are MilSpec, or built to military specificiations, which may or may not mean that they are more reliable than non-mil spec.

ETA: Can I ask, why do you ask?
wvusoldier217
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Posted: 11/3/2010 10:32:22 PM
military weapons are better simply because the a military. anything that the military uses is 1000x better than anything else. if you spend enough money or just use bad knock offs your weapon can be morph into a military weapon
NorCal_LEO
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Posted: 11/3/2010 10:32:57 PM
Originally Posted By Plumbata:
The civilian guns have not been taken apart 6,000 times, cleaned with Pine-Sol and a shoe brush, then put back together.


... also dropped, abused and finger @#$&ed by every joe that has been through the unit before you.

Sorry, I'm all out of empathy... but I have plenty of apathy left.

Damn, can't a brother get a "Run, Roger?" Gotta be all self-runnin' and whatnot...
Dan12
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Posted: 11/3/2010 10:34:47 PM
Civilian guns are usually older, black-powder type for display in front of the library or the VFW. Military guns on a mix of electronics and mechanical system and are built into ship.
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Posted: 11/3/2010 10:35:29 PM
I think he might be getting on design. If Im right, and hes thinking along the lines of things Ive thought of, hes getting at the difference in mindset of marketing and design of civilian weapons vs military. For instance, my mausers, enfields, garand, m1a, sks etc etc can be easily repaired in the field with a minimum or no tools, and are designed to take a certain amount of abuse, VS commercially designed weapons ( of top of my head the remington 740/742 series) that compared to mil. types are fragile, more prone to breakage, difficult if not impossible to repair/strip without tools/vice etc etc.
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Posted: 11/3/2010 10:35:40 PM
The only difference should be the owner.
ObamaCare formula: Increased Demand + Decreased Supply = Lower Price. Nothing beats a Harvard education I guess.
Lon_Moer
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Posted: 11/3/2010 10:39:32 PM


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coldair
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Posted: 11/3/2010 10:39:37 PM
one is a tool, beaten and abused by many , the other a thing a of beauty to its owner
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Posted: 11/3/2010 10:47:06 PM
[Last Edit: 11/3/2010 10:48:16 PM by Blivalbloval]

I don't think I used Pine-Sol on a issue rifle, but I know I Simple Green'd the shit out of more than a few.


Civilian rifles are normally more accurate too since there barrels and crowns aren't ground with sectional steel cleaning rods and dental picks till every scrap of carbin is gone either.


Toss in all the rest of the abuse issue rifles get and in general the average cilivian comparison is like a show room car to an old beater.


Even though I'd love the fun switch, I'd take my piston AR over any rifle I was ever issued when shtf here.



PA452
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Posted: 11/3/2010 10:52:05 PM
Originally Posted By Plumbata:
The civilian guns have not been taken apart 6,000 times, cleaned with Pine-Sol and a shoe brush, then put back together.


Don't forget shaving cream.
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BURN
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Posted: 11/3/2010 10:56:08 PM
Originally Posted By PA452:
Originally Posted By Plumbata:
The civilian guns have not been taken apart 6,000 times, cleaned with Pine-Sol and a shoe brush, then put back together.


Don't forget shaving cream.


or oven cleaner...
I need machines
RABID
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Posted: 11/3/2010 11:07:06 PM
[Last Edit: 11/3/2010 11:07:48 PM by RABID]
I dont think the OP is talking about the abuse after being issued to a untold number of hamfisted induviduals, but rather initial design of the weapon. Ive seen plenty of hunting rifles handled by fudd types with crowns ruined by cleaning rods, etc etc, equivalent or worse than the abuse handed out to issued weapons.
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Posted: 11/3/2010 11:09:34 PM

Originally Posted By Plumbata:
The civilian guns have not been taken apart 6,000 times, cleaned with Pine-Sol and a shoe brush, then put back together.

Don't forget scalding hot water, dish soap, and the stiffest battery terminal brush you can find.
KILLERB6
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Posted: 11/3/2010 11:25:08 PM
Originally Posted By steve-oh:
Originally Posted By Plumbata:
The civilian guns have not been taken apart 6,000 times, cleaned with Pine-Sol and a shoe brush, then put back together.


so true.


Most people would never believe that military weapons are worn out by overcleaning and other abuse...and are rarely fired...maybe 40rnds per year.
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Posted: 11/3/2010 11:26:23 PM
Originally Posted By KILLERB6:
Originally Posted By steve-oh:
Originally Posted By Plumbata:
The civilian guns have not been taken apart 6,000 times, cleaned with Pine-Sol and a shoe brush, then put back together.


so true.


Most people would never believe that military weapons are worn out by overcleaning and other abuse...and are rarely fired...maybe 40rnds per year.


What's worse, I see guys who got all their firearms knowledge and experience from the military who really think they have to clean their firearms like that.
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Posted: 11/3/2010 11:40:38 PM
I can testify that abuse/wear other than firing wears out some. In basic, (the rifles were in the armory there since 1987 and issued nowhere else but to recruits from thier 4th to 14th week of training) had next to no finish left on most of them, and the throating in my weapons barrel was worn out egg shaped from cleaning rods. Most of the rounds used in them were blanks, so there was more cleaning than shooting We qualified once, in the 14 week period with 60 rounds. If you failed, you re-tested for another 60 rounds. The weapons arent issued to consecutive courses either, so on average they get about 240 rounds a year maximum.

I got a new sense of respect for the AR platform from that. Mine had the worn throat, a horrible trigger that didnt break twice in the same spot consecutively, and I could still manage 2 1/2 inch groups at 100 meters with irons, and never missed at 200 on the moving targets. It may have a particular niche, but its a damn fine rifle for combat.
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Posted: 11/3/2010 11:45:59 PM
Originally Posted By Fearlessleader01:

Originally Posted By Plumbata:
The civilian guns have not been taken apart 6,000 times, cleaned with Pine-Sol and a shoe brush, then put back together.

Other than the fun switch I'd say this is the big one.

Ever compare a military issued M9 with a civilian M9/92FS?

The military one rattles, the finish is so worn the pistol is brown or silver, its all dinged to shit and the bore looks like hell.

And thats one thats never left the CONUS or been abused in the field.


So true. I've handled a few military M-16's over the years (even though I was never .mil) and every one of them was all beat to shit. I'm talking finish mostly worn off and stocks held together with tape.
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Posted: 11/3/2010 11:47:28 PM
Depends.

I used to hunt on a deer lease until the idiot lease manager made an announcment that no "military guns" were allowed for target or hunting purposes. The ironic part of that is he himself used a bubba'd Mauser for deer hunting. Until 40-60 years ago, Mausers were very much in use by militaries all around the world.

Dividing guns between military and non-military is stupid. My grandfather hunted with Mauser based actions in the 40's, only 50 years after that design was developed. I hunt with an AR nearly 60 years after it was developed, yet which rifle is seen as more "militarized"?
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Posted: 11/3/2010 11:55:53 PM

Originally Posted By Laryisgary:
I'm curious to get other members perspective on what the difference is between Military and civilian firearms. Legislation aside what is the difference?

I would think a person who signs up for a membership (albeit a free one) at ar15.com would at least understand the basic difference. Why do you ask?
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Posted: 11/4/2010 12:00:06 AM
Originally Posted By PA452:
Originally Posted By KILLERB6:
Originally Posted By steve-oh:
Originally Posted By Plumbata:
The civilian guns have not been taken apart 6,000 times, cleaned with Pine-Sol and a shoe brush, then put back together.


so true.


Most people would never believe that military weapons are worn out by overcleaning and other abuse...and are rarely fired...maybe 40rnds per year.


What's worse, I see guys who got all their firearms knowledge and experience from the military who really think they have to clean their firearms like that.


And the culture of folks who think they need to white glove clean a firearm everytime a shot is fired downrange. I'd say the average AR15 owner spends more time cleaning than shooting.
PA452
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Posted: 11/4/2010 12:02:23 AM
[Last Edit: 11/4/2010 12:05:00 AM by PA452]
Originally Posted By CTbuilder1:
Originally Posted By PA452:
Originally Posted By KILLERB6:
Originally Posted By steve-oh:
Originally Posted By Plumbata:
The civilian guns have not been taken apart 6,000 times, cleaned with Pine-Sol and a shoe brush, then put back together.


so true.


Most people would never believe that military weapons are worn out by overcleaning and other abuse...and are rarely fired...maybe 40rnds per year.


What's worse, I see guys who got all their firearms knowledge and experience from the military who really think they have to clean their firearms like that.


And the culture of folks who think they need to white glove clean a firearm everytime a shot is fired downrange. I'd say the average AR15 owner spends more time cleaning than shooting.


Yep. When I was on active duty, some guys who knew I did a lot of shooting in my off time were shocked to find out that I would never dream of cleaning my personal firearms the way they would clean their military weapons.

When I was the company armorer at two of my active duty units, I told guys I had a different standard than they were used to. I called it "practically clean", or "sensibly clean".

The only time I ever gave the white glove treatment was before a major inspection, and even then I was probably more tolerant than a lot of armorers. I was perfectly willing to explain my thoughts on the subject to the person doing the inspection if need be. Don't know how the commander would feel about that, but fortunately it never came to that.
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Posted: 11/4/2010 12:02:25 AM
Originally Posted By Laryisgary:
Difference between Military and civilian guns


This is my rifle, this is my gun. This is for fighting, this is for fun.
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Posted: 11/4/2010 12:34:21 AM
Mil guns = rat tat tat rat tat tat rat tat tat

Civie guns = bang bang bang bang bang

I'm not always right , but I'm not really wrong either!!!
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Posted: 11/4/2010 11:39:26 AM
cleaned with Pine-Sol and a shoe brush, then put back together.


I didn't use pine sol, but I did use Kiwi shoepolish and a shoebrush to blacken the buttstock for the big inspection in basic training. The stock looked like shit, and polishing it gave it a nice even black finish that improved the look of the rifle immensely. The rifle wasn't any cleaner than anybody elses, but it did look better.

I also remember polishing the grotty brass shower grilles with brasso until they gleamed like gold, to make the showers look nicer.

For what it's worth we DID pass the inspection.
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Posted: 11/4/2010 11:46:15 AM
One is used by the troops, as part of a government controlled, responsible entity.

The other is used by crazy people clinging to their Bibles and pickup trucks, and have no use but to kill children and innocent animals.









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run in little circles, wave your arms and shout.
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Posted: 11/4/2010 11:46:28 AM
Originally Posted By Plumbata:
The civilian guns have not been taken apart 6,000 times, cleaned with Pine-Sol and a shoe brush, then put back together.


LOL

This


The shit we did to clean our rifles to the armory standards would make some of the collectors around here shit themselves
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Posted: 11/4/2010 12:35:48 PM
Originally Posted By DaveM4P99:
Too broad of a question.

Do you mean what is the difference between a civilian AR15 and a Military M16 / M4 ? For the most part, it's really that the Military versions are fully automatic, meaning that the gun keeps firing as you hold down the trigger. Civilian versions are semi-automatic, meaning you have to pull the trigger each time for it to fire each round.



You forgot "and are parkerized under the FSB".
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Posted: 11/4/2010 1:02:40 PM
Originally Posted By Cromlech:
One is used by the troops, as part of a government controlled, responsible entity.

The other is used by crazy people clinging to their Bibles and pickup trucks, and have no use but to kill children and innocent animals.











Are you shi..... Oh, wait... It's England.
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Posted: 11/4/2010 1:05:11 PM
Originally Posted By Plumbata:
The civilian guns have not been taken apart 6,000 times, cleaned with Pine-Sol and a shoe brush, then put back together.


Pine-Sol. Hardest ive laughed all day.
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Posted: 11/4/2010 1:05:39 PM
For my garands - no difference. The civilian version IS the former military version.

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