14 1/2 inch Shotgun not an AOW ? LETTER ARRIVED 12/27 Pg21 - Page 18

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - 14 1/2 inch Shotgun not an AOW ? LETTER ARRIVED 12/27 Pg21 (Page 18 of 22)

Posted: 11/11/2010 10:39:55 AM EDT

[#1]

Quoted:

Who will make the first domestic Saiga 12 receiver? I'm needing a 20 shot 12ga drum fed with vertical foregrip [since it is not a pistol, good to go!]

OK, now I see the point of this.

Posted: 11/11/2010 12:25:39 PM EDT

[#2]

I apologize for the ignorance on my end. I see that something really good just happened. Can someone spell it out for me? What does this mean?

Posted: 11/11/2010 1:19:18 PM EDT

[#3]

Quoted:
I apologize for the ignorance on my end. I see that something really good just happened. Can someone spell it out for me? What does this mean?

A legally owned sawed-off shotgun (less buttstock) not subject to NFA. Correct?

Posted: 11/11/2010 3:40:35 PM EDT

[#4]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I apologize for the ignorance on my end. I see that something really good just happened. Can someone spell it out for me? What does this mean?

A legally owned sawed-off shotgun (less buttstock) not subject to NFA. Correct?

ATF agreed that smoothbore firearms which leave the factory with a pistol-grip only are not subject to minimum barrel lengths. The only measurement which applies to them is overall length, which cannot be less than 26".

In the past, these smoothbores were also subject to an 18" minimum barrel. No more.

For pump PG-only "shotguns" like the Mossberg Cruiser, this means that instead of an 18" minimum barrel, they may legally have a barrel of about 16" without becoming NFA items. (The exact barrel length depends on the type of grip, gauge, etc., all of which can affect overall length.)

And for semi shotguns such as a Saiga 12, it is now legal (if a manufacturer is willing to step up to the plate and start making U.S. receivers) to make a pistol-grip-only model with a way-shorter-than-18" barrel, as long as the overall length is not less than 26".

Posted: 11/11/2010 4:46:11 PM EDT

[#5]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I apologize for the ignorance on my end. I see that something really good just happened. Can someone spell it out for me? What does this mean?

A legally owned sawed-off shotgun (less buttstock) not subject to NFA. Correct?

ATF agreed that smoothbore firearms which leave the factory with a pistol-grip only are not subject to minimum barrel lengths. The only measurement which applies to them is overall length, which cannot be less than 26".

In the past, these smoothbores were also subject to an 18" minimum barrel. No more.

For pump PG-only "shotguns" like the Mossberg Cruiser, this means that instead of an 18" minimum barrel, they may legally have a barrel of about 16" without becoming NFA items. (The exact barrel length depends on the type of grip, gauge, etc., all of which can affect overall length.)

And for semi shotguns such as a Saiga 12, it is now legal (if a manufacturer is willing to step up to the plate and start making U.S. receivers) to make a pistol-grip-only model with a way-shorter-than-18" barrel, as long as the overall length is not less than 26".

If YOU read it that way, I am comfortable in repeating this information. Your advice to me personally has been spot on in the past.

Posted: 11/11/2010 5:09:29 PM EDT

[#6]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I apologize for the ignorance on my end. I see that something really good just happened. Can someone spell it out for me? What does this mean?

A legally owned sawed-off shotgun (less buttstock) not subject to NFA. Correct?

ATF agreed that smoothbore firearms which leave the factory with a pistol-grip only are not subject to minimum barrel lengths. The only measurement which applies to them is overall length, which cannot be less than 26".

In the past, these smoothbores were also subject to an 18" minimum barrel. No more.

For pump PG-only "shotguns" like the Mossberg Cruiser, this means that instead of an 18" minimum barrel, they may legally have a barrel of about 16" without becoming NFA items. (The exact barrel length depends on the type of grip, gauge, etc., all of which can affect overall length.)

And for semi shotguns such as a Saiga 12, it is now legal (if a manufacturer is willing to step up to the plate and start making U.S. receivers) to make a pistol-grip-only model with a way-shorter-than-18" barrel, as long as the overall length is not less than 26".

Posted: 11/11/2010 6:42:05 PM EDT

[#7]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Seems like this would be good to go.

http://i696.photobucket.com/albums/vv330/stuckma09/2009NortheastBloggershoot049.jpg

The Mossberg must have a longer receiver, my 870 SBS with the Speedfeed grip (what that appears to have), 14" barrel and a +1 extension is still only 25 3/4".

Kharn

breeching muzzle device silver soldered on. that will add the length you need. i'm thinking of doing a mossy with a 12" barrel and breeching device permanently attached to make it OAL 26 1/4" length.

That would be a pretty sweet setup.

OH YEAH!

Posted: 11/11/2010 7:03:36 PM EDT

[#8]

20 gauge version

Of course the BATFE will declare these guns DDs. They very well could do that despite the political climate in Congress and get away with it. You know the minute Schumer and Lautenberg realize this, they will push the BATFE to do just that.

Posted: 11/11/2010 7:08:54 PM EDT

[#9]

Quoted:

20 gauge version

Of course the BATFE will declare these guns DDs. They very well could do that despite the political climate in Congress and get away with it. You know the minute Schumer and Lautenberg realize this, they will push the BATFE to do just that.

Nope , they would have to rewrite the GCA

Posted: 11/11/2010 7:13:14 PM EDT

[#10]

Quoted:

Quoted:

20 gauge version

Of course the BATFE will declare these guns DDs. They very well could do that despite the political climate in Congress and get away with it. You know the minute Schumer and Lautenberg realize this, they will push the BATFE to do just that.

Nope , they would have to rewrite the GCA

Why?

20 GA is .615 Caliber.

Posted: 11/11/2010 7:14:43 PM EDT

[#11]

Quoted:

Quoted:
20 gauge version

Of course the BATFE will declare these guns DDs. They very well could do that despite the political climate in Congress and get away with it. You know the minute Schumer and Lautenberg realize this, they will push the BATFE to do just that.

Nope , they would have to rewrite the GCA

But not the NFA my friend (Or the GCA if the DD definition is the same)

These clearly are DDs if the BATFE actually followed the law. In this case, they are not. Good for us then

The BATFE I guess screwed the pooch years ago

Posted: 11/11/2010 7:16:25 PM EDT

[#12]

Yes, please.

Posted: 11/11/2010 8:04:54 PM EDT

[#13]

Quoted:

Quoted:

20 gauge version

Of course the BATFE will declare these guns DDs. They very well could do that despite the political climate in Congress and get away with it. You know the minute Schumer and Lautenberg realize this, they will push the BATFE to do just that.

Nope , they would have to rewrite the GCA

But not the NFA my friend (Or the GCA if the DD definition is the same)

These clearly are DDs if the BATFE actually followed the law. In this case, they are not. Good for us then

The BATFE I guess screwed the pooch years ago

There is no way these are DD's

Posted: 11/11/2010 8:27:46 PM EDT

[#14]

I'm going to call Speedfeed tomorrow and reference this thread. We're not direct with them. We get most of our stuff from AccuSport and RSR, but we're a vendor if they have any sense, they'll listen. I might also ask them if they prefer that Choate gets all the orders for these products.

You might want to call them, too. Thanks again to you and Historic Arms for this one. Way cool!

Posted: 11/12/2010 10:49:29 AM EDT

[#15]

Quoted:

Quoted:
20 gauge version

Of course the BATFE will declare these guns DDs. They very well could do that despite the political climate in Congress and get away with it. You know the minute Schumer and Lautenberg realize this, they will push the BATFE to do just that.

Nope , they would have to rewrite the GCA

But not the NFA my friend (Or the GCA if the DD definition is the same)

These clearly are DDs if the BATFE actually followed the law. In this case, they are not. Good for us then

The BATFE I guess screwed the pooch years ago

There is now way these are DD's

Good

I like to see a 20 gauge version reasonably priced

Posted: 11/13/2010 8:59:36 AM EDT

[#16]

Congratulations sir and thank you for your service.

http://img530.imageshack.us/img530/6935/clipboard01ku.jpg

Posted: 11/13/2010 9:16:05 AM EDT

[#17]

Quoted:
http://i696.photobucket.com/albums/vv330/stuckma09/2009NortheastBloggershoot049.jpg

Yes, please.

Anyone know what the overall length of this setup is?

Posted: 11/13/2010 9:58:41 AM EDT

[#18]

Anybody know if any of the Remingtons will qualify? This pic came out of their Military site and clocks in @ 20.5 I think.
But at least you could start off with a pistol grip receiver and go from there. ( If Rem. will go for it)

Posted: 11/13/2010 11:27:22 AM EDT

[#19]

jrzy, do you know what the overall length of the Remington 870 "Witness Protection" shotgun is just like in the movie The Book of Eli?:

If the overall length can be made 26" would you be willing to carry this?

Posted: 11/13/2010 11:34:07 AM EDT

[#20]

Quoted:

jrzy, do you know what the overall length of the Remington 870 "Witness Protection" shotgun is just like in the movie The Book of Eli?:

http://www.autoweapons.com/photos/870box.jpg

If the overall length can be made 26" would you be willing to carry this?

According to this Gunbroker listing, it already IS at 26" OAL

Brand new Remington Secret Service Police Magnum 870 12 Gauge AOW ( Any Other Weapon –– transfers with just a $5.00 NFA tax stamp ) serial #B145262M & serial #B145268M. From my personal collection –– two identical brand new 870SS 12 gauge AOWs with four plus one shell capacity, the signature "Witness Protection" style of pistol grip and forend, 14.0" long barrel and an overall length of only 26.0".

Posted: 11/13/2010 12:52:04 PM EDT

[#21]

Quoted:

Quoted:

jrzy, do you know what the overall length of the Remington 870 "Witness Protection" shotgun is just like in the movie The Book of Eli?:

http://www.autoweapons.com/photos/870box.jpg

If the overall length can be made 26" would you be willing to carry this?

According to this Gunbroker listing, it already IS at 26" OAL

Brand new Remington Secret Service Police Magnum 870 12 Gauge AOW ( Any Other Weapon –– transfers with just a $5.00 NFA tax stamp ) serial #B145262M & serial #B145268M. From my personal collection –– two identical brand new 870SS 12 gauge AOWs with four plus one shell capacity, the signature "Witness Protection" style of pistol grip and forend, 14.0" long barrel and an overall length of only 26.0".

Whats the listing auction number or URL?

Edited to add:

I found it, it's on Guns America

Posted: 11/13/2010 12:57:31 PM EDT

[#22]

Quoted:

jrzy, do you know what the overall length of the Remington 870 "Witness Protection" shotgun is just like in the movie The Book of Eli?:

http://www.autoweapons.com/photos/870box.jpg

If the overall length can be made 26" would you be willing to carry this?

Not yet I don't

Posted: 11/13/2010 1:12:36 PM EDT

[#23]

Quoted:

Quoted:

jrzy, do you know what the overall length of the Remington 870 "Witness Protection" shotgun is just like in the movie The Book of Eli?:

http://www.autoweapons.com/photos/870box.jpg

If the overall length can be made 26" would you be willing to carry this?

According to this Gunbroker listing, it already IS at 26" OAL

Brand new Remington Secret Service Police Magnum 870 12 Gauge AOW ( Any Other Weapon –– transfers with just a $5.00 NFA tax stamp ) serial #B145262M & serial #B145268M. From my personal collection –– two identical brand new 870SS 12 gauge AOWs with four plus one shell capacity, the signature "Witness Protection" style of pistol grip and forend, 14.0" long barrel and an overall length of only 26.0".

Whats the listing auction number or URL?
Edited to add:
I found it, it's on Guns America

Ad is closed.

Posted: 11/13/2010 1:14:20 PM EDT

[#24]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Seems like this would be good to go.

http://i696.photobucket.com/albums/vv330/stuckma09/2009NortheastBloggershoot049.jpg

The Mossberg must have a longer receiver, my 870 SBS with the Speedfeed grip (what that appears to have), 14" barrel and a +1 extension is still only 25 3/4".

Kharn

So how would these be classified in MD? Cash-n-carry? What dealer would have the stones to carry 'em?

Posted: 11/13/2010 1:30:59 PM EDT

[#25]

Quoted:

Quoted:

jrzy, do you know what the overall length of the Remington 870 "Witness Protection" shotgun is just like in the movie The Book of Eli?:

http://www.autoweapons.com/photos/870box.jpg

If the overall length can be made 26" would you be willing to carry this?

Not yet I don't

It seems rather silly for me to want a Remington 870 "Witness Protection" just because I watched a movie, but I've justified getting a gun for even more flimsy reasons.

Posted: 11/13/2010 1:31:53 PM EDT

[#26]

Quoted:

Quoted:

jrzy, do you know what the overall length of the Remington 870 "Witness Protection" shotgun is just like in the movie The Book of Eli?:

http://www.autoweapons.com/photos/870box.jpg

If the overall length can be made 26" would you be willing to carry this?

According to this Gunbroker listing, it already IS at 26" OAL

Brand new Remington Secret Service Police Magnum 870 12 Gauge AOW ( Any Other Weapon –– transfers with just a $5.00 NFA tax stamp ) serial #B145262M & serial #B145268M. From my personal collection –– two identical brand new 870SS 12 gauge AOWs with four plus one shell capacity, the signature "Witness Protection" style of pistol grip and forend, 14.0" long barrel and an overall length of only 26.0".

Damn, that would be awesome to get!

Posted: 11/13/2010 1:39:10 PM EDT

[#27]

Quoted:

Quoted:

jrzy, do you know what the overall length of the Remington 870 "Witness Protection" shotgun is just like in the movie The Book of Eli?:

http://www.autoweapons.com/photos/870box.jpg

If the overall length can be made 26" would you be willing to carry this?

Not yet I don't

It seems rather silly for me to want a Remington 870 "Witness Protection" just because I watched a movie, but I've justified getting a gun for even more flimsy reasons.

Hell i've never seen the movie and I WANT ONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Fucking NJ

Posted: 11/14/2010 4:06:25 PM EDT

[#28]

%&*#%^* Washington.

I guess we don't get to play with the rest of you.Or do we? I don't know yet.

(18) "Short-barreled shotgun" means a shotgun having one or more barrels less than eighteen inches in length and any weapon made from a shotgun by any means of modification if such modified weapon has an overall length of less than twenty-six inches.

(19) "Shotgun" means a weapon with one or more barrels, designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed shotgun shell to fire through a smooth bore either a number of ball shot or a single projectile for each single pull of the trigger.

*edit- Just read WA's AG statement on "shotgun" and "SBS" definitions. Pistol grip shotguns from factory are not 'a shotgun' so SBS's have or did have a shoulder stock.

Sounds better, but I'll see what the WA forums says.

Posted: 11/14/2010 4:38:05 PM EDT

[#29]

Anyone knowledge of the Texas state laws on shotgun barrel lengths that may affect this?

Posted: 11/14/2010 5:23:26 PM EDT

[#30]

Quoted:

Quoted:

jrzy, do you know what the overall length of the Remington 870 "Witness Protection" shotgun is just like in the movie The Book of Eli?:

http://www.autoweapons.com/photos/870box.jpg

If the overall length can be made 26" would you be willing to carry this?

According to this Gunbroker listing, it already IS at 26" OAL

Brand new Remington Secret Service Police Magnum 870 12 Gauge AOW ( Any Other Weapon –– transfers with just a $5.00 NFA tax stamp ) serial #B145262M & serial #B145268M. From my personal collection –– two identical brand new 870SS 12 gauge AOWs with four plus one shell capacity, the signature "Witness Protection" style of pistol grip and forend, 14.0" long barrel and an overall length of only 26.0".

I had the exact same configuration on my 870 SBS, its 25 3/4" . Thread the barrel for choke tubes and silver solder in an extended one and you're all set.

Quoted:
So how would these be classified in MD? Cash-n-carry? What dealer would have the stones to carry 'em?

PS 5-203(a) seems to mimic federal law with 18" barrel and 26" overall if fired from the shoulder. Dan at Gun Connection would be a good bet, he's in White Marsh.

Kharn

Posted: 11/14/2010 5:39:26 PM EDT

[#31]

Quoted:

Anyone knowledge of the Texas state laws on shotgun barrel lengths that may affect this?

Anyone?

Posted: 11/15/2010 12:59:57 AM EDT

[#32]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Yes, a Serbu Super Shorty 12ga AOW (or equivalent) is a smoothbore pistol in NY and can be registered on a NYS pistol license. It's the only NFA AOW legal firearm in NY.

Wonder if that would be OK as a CCW in TX?

when I had my 07/02 we pushed hard on the Tn AG to give us a ruling on our AOW's . Tn's law stats that pistols are hand fired with barrels less than 12" . our AOW's just by chance had 11 7/8" barrels . we never could squeze a ya or nay out of him , even though by all accounts they were legal to carry with our HCP .

Even worse our law states that the federal regestation is a defence from prosocution . one DA has said that anyone cought with an NFA firearm would be arested , booked and charged . it would be up to them to use the form 4 in thier defence in court .

Posted: 11/15/2010 3:44:56 AM EDT

[#33]

Quoted:

Quoted:

20 gauge version

Of course the BATFE will declare these guns DDs. They very well could do that despite the political climate in Congress and get away with it. You know the minute Schumer and Lautenberg realize this, they will push the BATFE to do just that.

Nope , they would have to rewrite the GCA

I hope you all are aware that several "gun rights" activists are very publicly alerting the Brady Bunch and the anti-gunners to this in order to spark a political showdown over the BATFE.

They call most people on ARFCOM "prags" (pragmatists) and deride (most of) us for not being part of their aggressive crusade that uses this to try and force BATFE and the Bradys' hand to attempt more crushing (but illegal) regulations.

What I seem to get out of their mocking and childish comments is that they think that they can castrate the BATFE over this by manipulating the anti-freedom groups.

Vanderboegh , blogging at The Sipsey Street Irregulars, seems to be leading this charge (http://sipseystreetirregulars.blogspot.com/2010/11/day-of-reflection-part-one-its-amazing.html and http://sipseystreetirregulars.blogspot.com/2010/11/this-is-going-to-piss-number-of-people.html).

He claims that BATFE has already declared these DDs but refuses to enforce it.

So by his thinking Len and jrzy are agents of the anti-gunners and we are all the equivalent of Jewish capos in the death camps. And all this time I thought I was supporting liberty and the 2nd Amendment.

Let the devouring of our own commence!

Posted: 11/15/2010 6:54:18 AM EDT

[#34]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Yes, a Serbu Super Shorty 12ga AOW (or equivalent) is a smoothbore pistol in NY and can be registered on a NYS pistol license. It's the only NFA AOW legal firearm in NY.

Wonder if that would be OK as a CCW in TX?

when I had my 07/02 we pushed hard on the Tn AG to give us a ruling on our AOW's . Tn's law stats that pistols are hand fired with barrels less than 12" . our AOW's just by chance had 11 7/8" barrels . we never could squeze a ya or nay out of him , even though by all accounts they were legal to carry with our HCP .

Even worse our law states that the federal regestation is a defence from prosocution . one DA has said that anyone cought with an NFA firearm would be arested , booked and charged . it would be up to them to use the form 4 in thier defence in court .

Ahh, the old tell it to the judge line. This is one of the reasons they shouldn't be able to hide behind the various "I was just doing my job" excuses. "Ignorance of the law" should be a double edged sword but sadly it isn't.

Posted: 11/15/2010 7:08:26 AM EDT

[#35]

The term "destructive
device" means (1) any explosive, incendiary, or poison gas (A) bomb,
(B) grenade, (C) rocket having a propellent charge of more than four
ounces, (D) missile having an explosive or incendiary charge of more
than one-quarter ounce, (E) or (F) similar device; (2) any type of
weapon by whatever name known which will, or which may be readily
converted to, expel a projectile by the action of an explosive or other
propellant, the barrel or barrels of which have a bore of more than
one-half inch in diameter, except a shotgun or shotgun shell which the
Secretary finds is generally recognized as particularly suitable for
sporting purposes; and (3) any combination of parts either designed or
intended for use in converting any device into a destructive device as
defined in subparagraphs (1) and (2) and from which a destructive
device may be readily assembled. The term "destructive device" shall not
include any device which is neither designed nor redesigned for use as a
weapon; any device, although originally designed for use as a weapon,
which is redesigned for use as a signaling, pyrotechnic, line throwing,
safety, or similar device; surplus ordnance sold, loaned, or given by
the Secretary of the Army pursuant to the provisions of section 4684(2),
4685, or 4686 of title 10 of the United States Code; or any other
device which the Secretary finds is not likely to be used as a weapon,
or is an antique or is a rifle which the owner intends to use solely for
sporting purposes.

I have news for the anti scum bags.

There are flare shells for 12 ga

They fire from a pistol grip 12 ga

All you have to do is add roll stamped "signaling device" into the receiver along with 12 ga

Fuck em, case closed

Posted: 11/15/2010 7:27:30 AM EDT

[#36]

Quoted:

The term "destructive device" means (1) any explosive, incendiary, or poison gas (A) bomb, (B) grenade, (C) rocket having a propellent charge of more than four ounces, (D) missile having an explosive or incendiary charge of more than one-quarter ounce, (E) or (F) similar device; (2) any type of weapon by whatever name known which will, or which may be readily converted to, expel a projectile by the action of an explosive or other propellant, the barrel or barrels of which have a bore of more than one-half inch in diameter, except a shotgun or shotgun shell which the Secretary finds is generally recognized as particularly suitable for sporting purposes; and (3) any combination of parts either designed or intended for use in converting any device into a destructive device as defined in subparagraphs (1) and (2) and from which a destructive device may be readily assembled. The term "destructive device" shall not include any device which is neither designed nor redesigned for use as a weapon; any device, although originally designed for use as a weapon, which is redesigned for use as a signaling, pyrotechnic, line throwing, safety, or similar device; surplus ordnance sold, loaned, or given by the Secretary of the Army pursuant to the provisions of section 4684(2), 4685, or 4686 of title 10 of the United States Code; or any other device which the Secretary finds is not likely to be used as a weapon, or is an antique or is a rifle which the owner intends to use solely for sporting purposes.

I have news for the anti scum bags.
There are flare shells for 12 ga
They fire from a pistol grip 12 ga
All you have to do is add roll stamped "signaling device" into the receiver along with 12 ga
Fuck em, case closed

So if someone sawed off the barrels of a shotgun, stamped "signal/flare use only" and only had signal flares in their posession then they would be legal? I would agree using the legal definition. However, I think we would be into the "tell it to the judge" area again.

Posted: 11/15/2010 7:45:41 AM EDT

[#37]

Quoted:

The term "destructive device" means (1) any explosive, incendiary, or poison gas (A) bomb, (B) grenade, (C) rocket having a propellent charge of more than four ounces, (D) missile having an explosive or incendiary charge of more than one-quarter ounce, (E) or (F) similar device; (2) any type of weapon by whatever name known which will, or which may be readily converted to, expel a projectile by the action of an explosive or other propellant, the barrel or barrels of which have a bore of more than one-half inch in diameter, except a shotgun or shotgun shell which the Secretary finds is generally recognized as particularly suitable for sporting purposes; and (3) any combination of parts either designed or intended for use in converting any device into a destructive device as defined in subparagraphs (1) and (2) and from which a destructive device may be readily assembled. The term "destructive device" shall not include any device which is neither designed nor redesigned for use as a weapon; any device, although originally designed for use as a weapon, which is redesigned for use as a signaling, pyrotechnic, line throwing, safety, or similar device; surplus ordnance sold, loaned, or given by the Secretary of the Army pursuant to the provisions of section 4684(2), 4685, or 4686 of title 10 of the United States Code; or any other device which the Secretary finds is not likely to be used as a weapon, or is an antique or is a rifle which the owner intends to use solely for sporting purposes.

I have news for the anti scum bags.
There are flare shells for 12 ga
They fire from a pistol grip 12 ga
All you have to do is add roll stamped "signaling device" into the receiver along with 12 ga
Fuck em, case closed

So if someone sawed off the barrels of a shotgun, stamped "signal/flare use only" and only had signal flares in their posession then they would be legal? I would agree using the legal definition. However, I think we would be into the "tell it to the judge" area again.

The reason these are legal is the flare pistols cannot physically chamber a 12ga shell, the flares are short and the chambers are also short. They would also explode if you tried to cut a shotgun shell down in size to fit and fired it.

Edit: So calling a sawed off shotgun a "signaling device" is not going to get you anywhere except FPMITAP.

Posted: 11/15/2010 9:06:21 AM EDT

[#38]

Quoted:

The term "destructive device" means (1) any explosive, incendiary, or poison gas (A) bomb, (B) grenade, (C) rocket having a propellent charge of more than four ounces, (D) missile having an explosive or incendiary charge of more than one-quarter ounce, (E) or (F) similar device; (2) any type of weapon by whatever name known which will, or which may be readily converted to, expel a projectile by the action of an explosive or other propellant, the barrel or barrels of which have a bore of more than one-half inch in diameter, except a shotgun or shotgun shell which the Secretary finds is generally recognized as particularly suitable for sporting purposes; and (3) any combination of parts either designed or intended for use in converting any device into a destructive device as defined in subparagraphs (1) and (2) and from which a destructive device may be readily assembled. The term "destructive device" shall not include any device which is neither designed nor redesigned for use as a weapon; any device, although originally designed for use as a weapon, which is redesigned for use as a signaling, pyrotechnic, line throwing, safety, or similar device; surplus ordnance sold, loaned, or given by the Secretary of the Army pursuant to the provisions of section 4684(2), 4685, or 4686 of title 10 of the United States Code; or any other device which the Secretary finds is not likely to be used as a weapon, or is an antique or is a rifle which the owner intends to use solely for sporting purposes.

I have news for the anti scum bags.
There are flare shells for 12 ga
They fire from a pistol grip 12 ga
All you have to do is add roll stamped "signaling device" into the receiver along with 12 ga
Fuck em, case closed

So if someone sawed off the barrels of a shotgun, stamped "signal/flare use only" and only had signal flares in their posession then they would be legal? I would agree using the legal definition. However, I think we would be into the "tell it to the judge" area again.

The reason these are legal is the flare pistols cannot physically chamber a 12ga shell, the flares are short and the chambers are also short. They would also explode if you tried to cut a shotgun shell down in size to fit and fired it.

Edit: So calling a sawed off shotgun a "signaling device" is not going to get you anywhere except FPMITAP.

Legally it looks like it would be OK - see green text above. But I agree with you that it probably wouldn't hold up in court unless you have a ton-o-money for lawyers. I am not willing to be the test case because I don't want to be FPMITAP...whatever that is. Probably not something I would enjoy.

Posted: 11/15/2010 9:10:58 AM EDT

[#39]

Quoted:

The term "destructive device" means (1) any explosive, incendiary, or poison gas (A) bomb, (B) grenade, (C) rocket having a propellent charge of more than four ounces, (D) missile having an explosive or incendiary charge of more than one-quarter ounce, (E) or (F) similar device; (2) any type of weapon by whatever name known which will, or which may be readily converted to, expel a projectile by the action of an explosive or other propellant, the barrel or barrels of which have a bore of more than one-half inch in diameter, except a shotgun or shotgun shell which the Secretary finds is generally recognized as particularly suitable for sporting purposes; and (3) any combination of parts either designed or intended for use in converting any device into a destructive device as defined in subparagraphs (1) and (2) and from which a destructive device may be readily assembled. The term "destructive device" shall not include any device which is neither designed nor redesigned for use as a weapon; any device, although originally designed for use as a weapon, which is redesigned for use as a signaling, pyrotechnic, line throwing, safety, or similar device; surplus ordnance sold, loaned, or given by the Secretary of the Army pursuant to the provisions of section 4684(2), 4685, or 4686 of title 10 of the United States Code; or any other device which the Secretary finds is not likely to be used as a weapon, or is an antique or is a rifle which the owner intends to use solely for sporting purposes.

I have news for the anti scum bags.
There are flare shells for 12 ga
They fire from a pistol grip 12 ga
All you have to do is add roll stamped "signaling device" into the receiver along with 12 ga
Fuck em, case closed

So if someone sawed off the barrels of a shotgun, stamped "signal/flare use only" and only had signal flares in their posession then they would be legal? I would agree using the legal definition. However, I think we would be into the "tell it to the judge" area again.

The reason these are legal is the flare pistols cannot physically chamber a 12ga shell, the flares are short and the chambers are also short. They would also explode if you tried to cut a shotgun shell down in size to fit and fired it.

Edit: So calling a sawed off shotgun a "signaling device" is not going to get you anywhere except FPMITAP.

Legally it looks like it would be OK - see green text above. But I agree with you that it probably wouldn't hold up in court unless you have a ton-o-money for lawyers. I am not willing to be the test case because I don't want to be FPMITAP...whatever that is. Probably not something I would enjoy.

If you modified the shotgun so that it could not chamber normal 12 ga shells and could only chamber 12ga flares then you might be ok. But simply marking on the receiver that the device is for signal flares only would not be legal, even given the green hi-light.

Posted: 11/15/2010 9:28:08 AM EDT

[#40]

David Codrea and Mike Vanderboegh are determined to turn tese into DDs. What awesome PRO-GUN RIGHTS ACTIVISTS!

http://www.examiner.com/gun-rights-in-national/atf-position-on-pistol-grip-shotguns-creates-new-danger

Foey on us ARFCOM "prags" that don't see how helping the Bradys' energize the BATFE into turning these "non-shotguns" into DDs will further the cause of GUN RIGHTS!

Posted: 11/15/2010 9:53:53 AM EDT

[#41]

Quoted:
David Codrea and Mike Vanderboegh are determined to turn tese into DDs. What awesome PRO-GUN RIGHTS ACTIVISTS!

It would be a big mistake for ATF to do that. Almost as big as the decision by Mayor Fenty to appeal the Heller I case to the USSC.
The ATF knows this, which is why it won't happen.

Posted: 11/15/2010 10:06:07 AM EDT

[#42]

Quoted:

Quoted:

David Codrea and Mike Vanderboegh are determined to turn tese into DDs. What awesome PRO-GUN RIGHTS ACTIVISTS!

It would be a big mistake for ATF to do that. Almost as big as the decision by Mayor Fenty to appeal the Heller I case to the USSC.

The ATF knows this, which is why it won't happen.

I fully agree. It would also be insanely stupid for "gun rights activists" to willingly provide ammunition to the Bradys' and actively try to energize the Bradys' to attack the BATFE's "failure" to act on this as part of some jackass attempt to derail the Bradys and neuter the BATFE.

Which seems to be our hero Vanderboegh's cleverly conceived plan.

Wow. Just wow.

Only to be dwarfed by Codrea's "millions of illegal machine guns" plan. Double wow.

We have to wait to tomorrow for him to reveal his genius. I wonder what it is? All non-Colt SP1 ARs are MGs? So he'll work with the Bradys' to get them to get the BATFE to ban ARs?

Yeah! What wonderful "GUN RIGHTS ACTIVISTS!" Yeah!

Posted: 11/15/2010 10:25:31 AM EDT

[#43]

Quoted:
David Codrea and Mike Vanderboegh are determined to turn tese into DDs. What awesome PRO-GUN RIGHTS ACTIVISTS!

http://www.examiner.com/gun-rights-in-national/atf-position-on-pistol-grip-shotguns-creates-new-danger

Foey on us ARFCOM "prags" that don't see how helping the Bradys' energize the BATFE into turning these "non-shotguns" into DDs will further the cause of GUN RIGHTS!

There letter says the example provided: is not a "firearm" as defined by the NFA.

They are writing blogs, I assume they can read

Posted: 11/15/2010 10:42:08 AM EDT

[#44]

Quoted:

Quoted:

David Codrea and Mike Vanderboegh are determined to turn tese into DDs. What awesome PRO-GUN RIGHTS ACTIVISTS!

http://www.examiner.com/gun-rights-in-national/atf-position-on-pistol-grip-shotguns-creates-new-danger

Foey on us ARFCOM "prags" that don't see how helping the Brady's' energize the BATFE into turning these "non-shotguns" into DDs will further the cause of GUN RIGHTS!

There letter says the example provided: is not a "firearm" as defined by the NFA.

They are writing blogs, I assume they can read

I think they are too busy with their clever idea of helping the Bradys to attack the BATFE over the BATFE's decision.

They are swayed (I think, its hard to figure out why they are doing this stupid shit) by a NFOA statement that if these aren't "shotguns" then the only "logical" thing is that they are DDs.

So, it a nutshell, they (Codrea and Venderboegh) think that BATFE has lazily and incompetently recategorized these pistol -grip smooth-bore "others" from shotguns to "other" - which means they are really DDs (not AOWs) and that this:

1. Puts everyone that owns a pistol-gripped smooth-bore "non-shotgun" other in the position of having an illegal, non-registered DD.

2. They (Codera and Vanderboegh) will actively aid and abet the Brady's (Helmke, et al) into using this as a club to beat the BATFE because they then think there will be some backlash that will ultimately weaken / destroy the Bradys (Helmke, et al) and the BATFE (unless the BATFE rescinds this ruling).

And we're all dupes and shit-head "prags" trundling off the anti-gun cliff Len Savage and jrzy (and the NRA somehow because they hate the guy that writes the "Snowflakes in Hell" blog for some reason) have created and destroying "gun rights" if we think this is a good thing.

I think...

Yea! Hooray for our side and kill the NRA!

Posted: 11/15/2010 11:00:04 AM EDT

[#45]

Originally Posted By ODA_564

I think they are too busy with their clever idea of helping the Bradys to attack the BATFE over the BATFE's decision.

They are swayed (I think, its hard to figure out why they are doing this stupid shit) by a NFOA statement that if these aren't "shotguns" then the only "logical" thing is that they are DDs.

So, it a nutshell, they (Codrea and Venderboegh) think that BATFE has lazily and incompetently recategorized these pistol -grip smooth-bore "others" from shotguns to "other" - which means they are really DDs (not AOWs) and that this:

1. Puts everyone that owns a pistol-gripped smooth-bore "non-shotgun" other in the position of having an illegal, non-registered DD.

2. They (Codera and Vanderboegh) will actively aid and abet the Brady's (Helmke, et al) into using this as a club to beat the BATFE because they then think there will be some backlash that will ultimately weaken / destroy the Bradys (Helmke, et al) and the BATFE (unless the BATFE rescinds this ruling).

And we're all dupes and shit-head "prags" trundling off the anti-gun cliff Len Savage and jrzy (and the NRA somehow because they hate the guy that writes the "Snowflakes in Hell" blog for some reason) have created and destroying "gun rights" if we think this is a good thing.

I think...

Yea! Hooray for our side and kill the NRA!

About that part in red if you read the laws, they are right.

DD's (not explosive):

1-any weapon which expels projectiles by explosive or other propellant

2-has a bore over one half inch

Now there are a few "outs" to being a DD:

1-a shotgun with a suitable sporting purpose

2-rifles with a sole sporting purpose

3-antiques

4-things that arent weapons (either by design, or by likely use)

4-weapons redesigned to be used signaling/line throwing/etc

Which "out" does pistol grip only smoothbores fit?

Posted: 11/15/2010 11:09:36 AM EDT

[#46]

Quoted:

Originally Posted By ODA_564

I think they are too busy with their clever idea of helping the Bradys to attack the BATFE over the BATFE's decision.

They are swayed (I think, its hard to figure out why they are doing this stupid shit) by a NFOA statement that if these aren't "shotguns" then the only "logical" thing is that they are DDs.

So, it a nutshell, they (Codrea and Venderboegh) think that BATFE has lazily and incompetently recategorized these pistol -grip smooth-bore "others" from shotguns to "other" - which means they are really DDs (not AOWs) and that this:

1. Puts everyone that owns a pistol-gripped smooth-bore "non-shotgun" other in the position of having an illegal, non-registered DD.

2. They (Codera and Vanderboegh) will actively aid and abet the Brady's (Helmke, et al) into using this as a club to beat the BATFE because they then think there will be some backlash that will ultimately weaken / destroy the Bradys (Helmke, et al) and the BATFE (unless the BATFE rescinds this ruling).

And we're all dupes and shit-head "prags" trundling off the anti-gun cliff Len Savage and jrzy (and the NRA somehow because they hate the guy that writes the "Snowflakes in Hell" blog for some reason) have created and destroying "gun rights" if we think this is a good thing.

I think...

Yea! Hooray for our side and kill the NRA!

About that part in red if you read the laws, they are right.

DD's (not explosive):

1-any weapon which expels projectiles by explosive or other propellant
2-has a bore over one half inch

Now there are a few "outs" to being a DD:

1-a shotgun with a suitable sporting purpose
2-rifles with a sole sporting purpose
3-antiques
4-things that arent weapons (either by design, or by likely use)
4-weapons redesigned to be used signaling/line throwing/etc

Which "out" does pistol grip only smoothbores fit?

There's this section:

"Any weapon by whatever name known which will, or which may be readily converted to, expel a projectile by the action of an explosive or other propellant, the barrel or barrels of which have a bore of more than one-half inch in diameter, except a shotgun or shotgun shell which the Secretary finds is generally recognized as particularly suitable for sporting purposes." Source: 26 U.S.C, Section 5845(f).

I haven't been able to figure out what "Or shotgun shell" means. Do they mean firearms designed to expel a shotgun shell are exempt? Or do they mean the shells themselves are exempt. If they mean the former then I think there's your "out".

Posted: 11/15/2010 11:15:00 AM EDT

[#47]

if they do rule PG firearms DD's then the only way they could pull it off is to have some sort of amnesty , that would likely last for quite some time . if they tried to prosocute , then companys such as remington and mossberg along with serbu and a ton of others would be in deep trouble . 07/02's can't make DD's tax free . I'm sure it would get fought in court to the top at a loss for the BATFE . either way it looks like a bad road to go down .

this may give you a slightly shorter barrel too

Posted: 11/15/2010 1:40:21 PM EDT

[#48]

Quoted:

Originally Posted By ODA_564

I think they are too busy with their clever idea of helping the Bradys to attack the BATFE over the BATFE's decision.

They are swayed (I think, its hard to figure out why they are doing this stupid shit) by a NFOA statement that if these aren't "shotguns" then the only "logical" thing is that they are DDs.

So, it a nutshell, they (Codrea and Venderboegh) think that BATFE has lazily and incompetently recategorized these pistol -grip smooth-bore "others" from shotguns to "other" - which means they are really DDs (not AOWs) and that this:

1. Puts everyone that owns a pistol-gripped smooth-bore "non-shotgun" other in the position of having an illegal, non-registered DD.

2. They (Codera and Vanderboegh) will actively aid and abet the Brady's (Helmke, et al) into using this as a club to beat the BATFE because they then think there will be some backlash that will ultimately weaken / destroy the Bradys (Helmke, et al) and the BATFE (unless the BATFE rescinds this ruling).

And we're all dupes and shit-head "prags" trundling off the anti-gun cliff Len Savage and jrzy (and the NRA somehow because they hate the guy that writes the "Snowflakes in Hell" blog for some reason) have created and destroying "gun rights" if we think this is a good thing.

I think...

Yea! Hooray for our side and kill the NRA!

About that part in red if you read the laws, they are right.

DD's (not explosive):

1-any weapon which expels projectiles by explosive or other propellant

2-has a bore over one half inch

Now there are a few "outs" to being a DD:

1-a shotgun with a suitable sporting purpose

2-rifles with a sole sporting purpose

3-antiques

4-things that arent weapons (either by design, or by likely use)

4-weapons redesigned to be used signaling/line throwing/etc

Which "out" does pistol grip only smoothbores fit?

I can roll stamp signaling device and there are 12 ga flares on the market already

Posted: 11/15/2010 3:08:32 PM EDT

[#49]

Quoted:

Originally Posted By ODA_564

I think they are too busy with their clever idea of helping the Bradys to attack the BATFE over the BATFE's decision.

They are swayed (I think, its hard to figure out why they are doing this stupid shit) by a NFOA statement that if these aren't "shotguns" then the only "logical" thing is that they are DDs.

So, it a nutshell, they (Codrea and Venderboegh) think that BATFE has lazily and incompetently recategorized these pistol -grip smooth-bore "others" from shotguns to "other" - which means they are really DDs (not AOWs) and that this:

1. Puts everyone that owns a pistol-gripped smooth-bore "non-shotgun" other in the position of having an illegal, non-registered DD.

2. They (Codera and Vanderboegh) will actively aid and abet the Brady's (Helmke, et al) into using this as a club to beat the BATFE because they then think there will be some backlash that will ultimately weaken / destroy the Bradys (Helmke, et al) and the BATFE (unless the BATFE rescinds this ruling).

And we're all dupes and shit-head "prags" trundling off the anti-gun cliff Len Savage and jrzy (and the NRA somehow because they hate the guy that writes the "Snowflakes in Hell" blog for some reason) have created and destroying "gun rights" if we think this is a good thing.

I think...

Yea! Hooray for our side and kill the NRA!

About that part in red if you read the laws, they are right.

DD's (not explosive):

1-any weapon which expels projectiles by explosive or other propellant
2-has a bore over one half inch

Now there are a few "outs" to being a DD:

1-a shotgun with a suitable sporting purpose
2-rifles with a sole sporting purpose
3-antiques
4-things that arent weapons (either by design, or by likely use)
4-weapons redesigned to be used signaling/line throwing/etc

Which "out" does pistol grip only smoothbores fit?

I can roll stamp signaling device and there are 12 ga flares on the market already

If it can chamber and fire a standard 12ga round, it ain't a signaling device. Like I said earlier, 12ga flare guns cannot chamber regular 12ga shells, only 12ga flares, which are shorter than shotgun shells.

Posted: 11/15/2010 3:10:16 PM EDT

[#50]

Quoted:

Originally Posted By ODA_564

I think they are too busy with their clever idea of helping the Bradys to attack the BATFE over the BATFE's decision.

They are swayed (I think, its hard to figure out why they are doing this stupid shit) by a NFOA statement that if these aren't "shotguns" then the only "logical" thing is that they are DDs.

So, it a nutshell, they (Codrea and Venderboegh) think that BATFE has lazily and incompetently recategorized these pistol -grip smooth-bore "others" from shotguns to "other" - which means they are really DDs (not AOWs) and that this:

1. Puts everyone that owns a pistol-gripped smooth-bore "non-shotgun" other in the position of having an illegal, non-registered DD.

2. They (Codera and Vanderboegh) will actively aid and abet the Brady's (Helmke, et al) into using this as a club to beat the BATFE because they then think there will be some backlash that will ultimately weaken / destroy the Bradys (Helmke, et al) and the BATFE (unless the BATFE rescinds this ruling).

And we're all dupes and shit-head "prags" trundling off the anti-gun cliff Len Savage and jrzy (and the NRA somehow because they hate the guy that writes the "Snowflakes in Hell" blog for some reason) have created and destroying "gun rights" if we think this is a good thing.

I think...

Yea! Hooray for our side and kill the NRA!

About that part in red if you read the laws, they are right.

DD's (not explosive):

1-any weapon which expels projectiles by explosive or other propellant
2-has a bore over one half inch

Now there are a few "outs" to being a DD:

1-a shotgun with a suitable sporting purpose
2-rifles with a sole sporting purpose
3-antiques
4-things that arent weapons (either by design, or by likely use)
4-weapons redesigned to be used signaling/line throwing/etc

Which "out" does pistol grip only smoothbores fit?

I can roll stamp signaling device and there are 12 ga flares on the market already

If that's your serious response, I'm at a loss for words.

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - 14 1/2 inch Shotgun not an AOW ? LETTER ARRIVED 12/27 Pg21 (Page 18 of 22)

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