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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Serious question: Why does Chris Costa hold his rifle like this? (Page 3 of 6)

Posted: 5/3/2010 9:47:17 PM EDT

[#1]

pg3

Posted: 5/3/2010 9:47:40 PM EDT

[#2]

Quoted:
pg3

Posted: 5/3/2010 9:50:18 PM EDT

[#3]

nice snipe I almost made page 3 with a Double Tap

Posted: 5/3/2010 9:58:25 PM EDT

[#4]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Meh, I've never had any issue gripping around the magazine well and keeping my elbows tight inside.

To each their own though.

less than 20 meters= this. tried the costa grip. made me feel like a douche

I used to shoot like that too.

It does nothing for managing my rifle's recoil for follow up shots. But like you said, it works for you, and at least you get out and train with your guns.

Holding a rifle at the magwell is like holding a pencil by the eraser and trying to write your name with it.

shooting at < 20 yards isn't exactly calligraphy

Posted: 5/3/2010 10:01:44 PM EDT

[#5]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Meh, I've never had any issue gripping around the magazine well and keeping my elbows tight inside.

To each their own though.

less than 20 meters= this. tried the costa grip. made me feel like a douche

I used to shoot like that too.

It does nothing for managing my rifle's recoil for follow up shots. But like you said, it works for you, and at least you get out and train with your guns.

Holding a rifle at the magwell is like holding a pencil by the eraser and trying to write your name with it.

shooting at < 20 yards isn't exactly calligraphy

Shit, you don't even need to use the sights

Posted: 5/3/2010 10:06:15 PM EDT

[#6]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Meh, I've never had any issue gripping around the magazine well and keeping my elbows tight inside.

To each their own though.

less than 20 meters= this. tried the costa grip. made me feel like a douche

I used to shoot like that too.

It does nothing for managing my rifle's recoil for follow up shots. But like you said, it works for you, and at least you get out and train with your guns.

Holding a rifle at the magwell is like holding a pencil by the eraser and trying to write your name with it.

shooting at < 20 yards isn't exactly calligraphy

Shit, you don't even need to use the sights

Cool... Lets see your videos where you put 15 rounds COM into 3 different targets in 2.92 seconds...

Edit to correct the time.

Posted: 5/3/2010 10:11:48 PM EDT

[#7]

Quoted:
I'm sure there is a reason for it, and its obvious that it works for him....but why would you hold your rifle like this? What is his explanation as to why this is better than a 'standard' hold?

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2786/4430097095_d37b1dc1d5.jpg

Point control is better then your average grip. It's a competition grip modified for combat, hence the fact hes squared up to his target. It's application is VERY specific to CQB combat but could also be used for longer engagements as well.

Posted: 5/3/2010 10:14:18 PM EDT

[#8]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Meh, I've never had any issue gripping around the magazine well and keeping my elbows tight inside.

To each their own though.

less than 20 meters= this. tried the costa grip. made me feel like a douche

I used to shoot like that too.

It does nothing for managing my rifle's recoil for follow up shots. But like you said, it works for you, and at least you get out and train with your guns.

Holding a rifle at the magwell is like holding a pencil by the eraser and trying to write your name with it.

shooting at < 20 yards isn't exactly calligraphy

Shit, you don't even need to use the sights

Cool... Lets see your videos where you put 15 rounds COM into 3 different targets in 3.92 seconds...

^ This

ETA lets make it 4.5 seconds but give me brain pan shots on 3 targets without using your sights at 20 yards.

Posted: 5/3/2010 10:14:45 PM EDT

[#9]

Quoted:

Quoted:

pg3

Im pretty sure I have never no edit page owned before ever

now 2 in a row LOL

Posted: 5/3/2010 10:16:01 PM EDT

[#10]

Quoted:

I don't know. I think it's silly, but I also preach "do what works best for you".

So do they.

Posted: 5/3/2010 10:17:22 PM EDT

[#11]

Quoted:

why does this question have to be asked once a week?

ETA: i don't know whats worse the fan boys or the haters

They're both pretty bad. They egg each other one and it just gets worse.

It's like a snowball rolling down a hill.

Posted: 5/3/2010 10:20:04 PM EDT

[#12]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Meh, I've never had any issue gripping around the magazine well and keeping my elbows tight inside.

To each their own though.

less than 20 meters= this. tried the costa grip. made me feel like a douche

I used to shoot like that too.

It does nothing for managing my rifle's recoil for follow up shots. But like you said, it works for you, and at least you get out and train with your guns.

Holding a rifle at the magwell is like holding a pencil by the eraser and trying to write your name with it.

shooting at < 20 yards isn't exactly calligraphy

Shit, you don't even need to use the sights

Cool... Lets see your videos where you put 15 rounds COM into 3 different targets in 2.92 seconds...

Edit to correct the time.

For those who haven't seen what he's talking about:

Posted: 5/3/2010 10:22:35 PM EDT

[#13]

Quoted:

Quoted:

why does this question have to be asked once a week?

ETA: i don't know whats worse the fan boys or the haters

They're both pretty bad. They egg each other one and it just gets worse.

It's like a snowball rolling down a hill.

first time I have seen a vid dupe in the same thread

Posted: 5/3/2010 10:22:46 PM EDT

[#14]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Meh, I've never had any issue gripping around the magazine well and keeping my elbows tight inside.

To each their own though.

less than 20 meters= this. tried the costa grip. made me feel like a douche

I used to shoot like that too.

It does nothing for managing my rifle's recoil for follow up shots. But like you said, it works for you, and at least you get out and train with your guns.

Holding a rifle at the magwell is like holding a pencil by the eraser and trying to write your name with it.

shooting at < 20 yards isn't exactly calligraphy

Shit, you don't even need to use the sights

Cool... Lets see your videos where you put 15 rounds COM into 3 different targets in 2.92 seconds...

Edit to correct the time.

For those who haven't seen what he's talking about:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FaCpOt9xVy4

I'm not that fast even with the sights.

Posted: 5/3/2010 10:24:15 PM EDT

[#15]

Quoted:
I'm not that fast even with the sights.

Maybe not 2.92 seconds fast, but I bet you could get close with the "proper" grip...

Posted: 5/3/2010 10:26:04 PM EDT

[#16]

Quoted:

Quoted:

why does this question have to be asked once a week?

ETA: i don't know whats worse the fan boys or the haters

They're both pretty bad. They egg each other one and it just gets worse.

It's like a snowball rolling down a hill.

first time I have seen a vid dupe in the same thread

Didn't bother reading page two, life goes on boss.

Posted: 5/3/2010 10:26:22 PM EDT

[#17]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I'm not that fast even with the sights.

Maybe not 2.92 seconds fast, but I bet you could get close with the "proper" grip...

My grip is just fine thank you. It was refined by two tours. I don't need a DVD star to teach me how to shoot

Posted: 5/3/2010 10:29:19 PM EDT

[#18]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I'm not that fast even with the sights.

Maybe not 2.92 seconds fast, but I bet you could get close with the "proper" grip...

My grip is just fine thank you. It was refined by two tours. I don't need a DVD star to teach me how to shoot

So faster isnt worth the effort?

Posted: 5/3/2010 10:31:29 PM EDT

[#19]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I'm not that fast even with the sights.

Maybe not 2.92 seconds fast, but I bet you could get close with the "proper" grip...

My grip is just fine thank you. It was refined by two tours. I don't need a DVD star to teach me how to shoot

Mehh... I did two pumps to Iraq and I learned something.

Regardless of what you think about Mr. Costa (I have no idea what he has done) Kyle Lamb is not a just a "DVD star".

Posted: 5/3/2010 10:32:19 PM EDT

[#20]

Quoted:

Quoted:

I'm not that fast even with the sights.

Maybe not 2.92 seconds fast, but I bet you could get close with the "proper" grip...

My grip is just fine thank you. It was refined by two tours. I don't need a DVD star to teach me how to shoot

I bet you shoot Minute of badguy too, which is a helluva lot better than most of the people here.

I always get a chuckle at the people in GD who are quick to compare people to CAG/tier1 shooters.

Edit: I dont mean you, Skillets, just as a general observation.

Posted: 5/3/2010 10:34:58 PM EDT

[#21]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I'm not that fast even with the sights.

Maybe not 2.92 seconds fast, but I bet you could get close with the "proper" grip...

My grip is just fine thank you. It was refined by two tours. I don't need a DVD star to teach me how to shoot

So faster isnt worth the effort?

"proper" is not necessarily faster for everyone. The only reason those guys in the videos are so fast is because they shoot all day, every day. Whatever new over hyped technique they use is a way to shoot, but not the only way. My way works just fine, and it is plenty fast.

Posted: 5/3/2010 10:36:17 PM EDT

[#22]

Quoted:

Quoted:

I'm not that fast even with the sights.

Maybe not 2.92 seconds fast, but I bet you could get close with the "proper" grip...

My grip is just fine thank you. It was refined by two tours. I don't need a DVD star to teach me how to shoot

So faster isnt worth the effort?

"proper" is not necessarily faster for everyone. The only reason those guys in the videos are so fast is because they shoot all day, every day. Whatever new over hyped technique they use is a way to shoot, but not the only way. My way works just fine, and it is plenty fast.

Yep. Being a Dboy will do that to you.

Posted: 5/3/2010 10:40:04 PM EDT

[#23]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I'm not that fast even with the sights.

Maybe not 2.92 seconds fast, but I bet you could get close with the "proper" grip...

My grip is just fine thank you. It was refined by two tours. I don't need a DVD star to teach me how to shoot

So faster isnt worth the effort?

"proper" is not necessarily faster for everyone. The only reason those guys in the videos are so fast is because they shoot all day, every day. Whatever new over hyped technique they use is a way to shoot, but not the only way. My way works just fine, and it is plenty fast.

No biggie man. All you're saying is that you are not interested in pushing your boundaries (comfort zone) to refine your skills. I felt like a competent shooter before the switch to that grip style, but I feel better now.

The only point of contention I have with your comments is that the grip style is "over hyped"... I thought it looked stupid until I tried it, and now I think the other way looks stupid. The fact is that it works.

Posted: 5/3/2010 10:43:46 PM EDT

[#24]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I'm not that fast even with the sights.

Maybe not 2.92 seconds fast, but I bet you could get close with the "proper" grip...

My grip is just fine thank you. It was refined by two tours. I don't need a DVD star to teach me how to shoot

So faster isnt worth the effort?

"proper" is not necessarily faster for everyone. The only reason those guys in the videos are so fast is because they shoot all day, every day. Whatever new over hyped technique they use is a way to shoot, but not the only way. My way works just fine, and it is plenty fast.

No biggie man. All you're saying is that you are not interested in pushing your boundaries to refine your skills. I felt like a competent shooter before the switch to that grip style, but I feel better now.

The only point of contention I have with your comments is that the grip style is "over hyped"... I thought it looked stupid until I tried it, and now I think the other way looks stupid. The fact is that it works.

I'm glad it works for you

Me, I'm out of the fight, and unless civil war 2 starts, I have no desire to go back. Now I just shoot for the enjoyment. I've gone back to smallbore as that provides one of the greatest challenges out there.

Posted: 5/3/2010 10:44:07 PM EDT

[#25]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I'm not that fast even with the sights.

Maybe not 2.92 seconds fast, but I bet you could get close with the "proper" grip...

My grip is just fine thank you. It was refined by two tours. I don't need a DVD star to teach me how to shoot

So faster isnt worth the effort?

"proper" is not necessarily faster for everyone. The only reason those guys in the videos are so fast is because they shoot all day, every day. Whatever new over hyped technique they use is a way to shoot, but not the only way. My way works just fine, and it is plenty fast.

Well I am not going to argue with you. I will just say that alot of guys that have been there and done that have switched to this type or a modification of this type of stance. There is a reason for it and its not because its cool or to sell crap. It works, it might not work for you and thats fine. I would think that anything that has the potential to help you put rounds on target faster would be worth lengthy investigation. Your the first guy with combat experience I have ever heard say that they didnt wish the could put rounds in guys trying to kill them faster than what they could. Anyway thanks for your service.

Posted: 5/3/2010 10:46:10 PM EDT

[#26]

Quoted:

Quoted:

So they can sell these .

Ding ding diing

Yeah, they were pushing those heavy at CTD today... until they realized they were sold out... then they said there's really no difference between those and a traditional and i should just go with what they had... why do i talk to ppl?!

Posted: 5/3/2010 11:02:19 PM EDT

[#27]

I'm sorta going to echo something here guys. I'm good with a carbine. I have been for some time. A good while before I ever got into this "hobbiest" side of firearms. This speed shooting stuff with the crazy grip and all the doodads is fine I guess, but in a real world situation, i feel that there is alot of impractical crap there. Nobody walks around on patrols holding a carbine at that 9 o'clock far forward position, ready to snap rounds onto a target . it just isn't practical to that particular activity. there is nothing at all wrong with the hold that is being discussed here, but it is not something that I feel has a place in my bag of tricks. If it works for you, great. if not, don't. There will be some other technique lauded on the intratubes in a few months from now anyway. thats just how this stuff works. AR fashion rotates faster that the bracelet selection at clare's in the mall.

Posted: 5/3/2010 11:13:56 PM EDT

[#28]

Perhaps he's trained like me.

That is, with using a sling, letting the rifle rest in the palm of the hand, and never using a front grip. Then when presented with a rifle that does have one........he's responding to way his training tells him.

Difficult to say, however. I've shot 40X's and M-14's and with both, there's a palm rest, either a deliberate design or incidental.....but in both cases, they allow one to have their forearm against the body. The point is that while that might be seen as a type of front grip, it really isn't since the rifle rests in the palm and is not gripped.

Of course, in this picture, it looks awkward and quite frankly, if I were given a rifle with a front grip, I'm not sure how I would react.............................except that in the moments that I'm trying to find a workable solution, I am more likely to go with my training than to learn how to use the front grip.
______________________________________________________________
("How's Tricks?"––one wizard to another, (w,stte), "The Wizard of Id")

Posted: 5/3/2010 11:59:07 PM EDT

[#29]

Quoted:

They mention in the Magpul DVDs how competition shooters influence the military techniques and vice versa, as well as inspire new equipment ect.

I'd love to disarm someone and strangle them with their weapon during their combatives because that is exactly what will happen with your weapon and arm sticking out like that.

Posted: 5/4/2010 3:33:57 AM EDT

[#30]

Quoted:

Quoted:

They mention in the Magpul DVDs how competition shooters influence the military techniques and vice versa, as well as inspire new equipment ect.

I'd love to disarm someone and strangle them with their weapon during their combatives because that is exactly what will happen with your weapon and arm sticking out like that.

Sounds like a good way to get shot in the face by their secondary.

Posted: 5/4/2010 3:57:20 AM EDT

[#31]

Quoted:

Quoted:
i tried it... I cant sand it.

I first tried it in class, and while there was no difference when working in close, there was a noticeable difference in stability and recovery out at the 50. As for the "chicken wing" comments, the support side elbow is no further out than when presenting with a handgun.

I have found it to be more helpful in close since I can move from target to target much faster.

Phhht, just you wait, I've been working on my trademarked "figure four choke" rifle technique.

Weak arm over the top of the rifle and hooked back under the strong arm mitigates ALL recoil!

It's pretty much the latest and greatest.

Posted: 5/4/2010 4:00:31 AM EDT

[#32]

Quoted:

Quoted:

They mention in the Magpul DVDs how competition shooters influence the military techniques and vice versa, as well as inspire new equipment ect.

I'd love to disarm someone and strangle them with their weapon during their combatives because that is exactly what will happen with your weapon and arm sticking out like that.

im sure the bullets will meet you before the arm is presented in room clearance. and the shorter the barrel the less chance you have at gaining control.

something tells me you've never tried to disarm someone in close quarters.....especially someone who trains for that particular type of environment.

Posted: 5/4/2010 4:05:44 AM EDT

[#33]

Quoted:
Sometimes I wonder if its a marketing ploy so people will remember him and set him apart from the hundreds of other "trainers" out there.

Sometimes I wonder if Im just really cynical.

If I remember correctly, Kyle Lamb from Viking Tactics teaches an almost identical method. I've taken a Magpul class before and will say it works well for me, but I tend to revert back to how I've been shooting the AR series of rifles for the last 9 years.

Posted: 5/4/2010 4:06:47 AM EDT

[#34]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I'm not that fast even with the sights.

Maybe not 2.92 seconds fast, but I bet you could get close with the "proper" grip...

My grip is just fine thank you. It was refined by two tours. I don't need a DVD star to teach me how to shoot

So faster isnt worth the effort?

"proper" is not necessarily faster for everyone. The only reason those guys in the videos are so fast is because they shoot all day, every day. Whatever new over hyped technique they use is a way to shoot, but not the only way. My way works just fine, and it is plenty fast.

No biggie man. All you're saying is that you are not interested in pushing your boundaries (comfort zone) to refine your skills. I felt like a competent shooter before the switch to that grip style, but I feel better now.

The only point of contention I have with your comments is that the grip style is "over hyped"... I thought it looked stupid until I tried it, and now I think the other way looks stupid. The fact is that it works.

It IS over hyped. To the point it's used incorrectly from second hand knowledge and products are sold to support the style and used on inappropriate platforms.

Wait till I get my A2, I'll magwell grip and short stock the piss out of it and run circles around everyone!

Posted: 5/4/2010 4:17:12 AM EDT

[#35]

Quoted:
I'm sure there is a reason for it, and its obvious that it works for him....but why would you hold your rifle like this? What is his explanation as to why this is better than a 'standard' hold?

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2786/4430097095_d37b1dc1d5.jpg

He's applying positive pressure to drive the rifle back into his body. Notice that the stock is placed on his chest and not the crease of his shoulder. The end result is superior recoil control. The way you hold the rifle has implications for the speed and accuracy you can get out of it. It's even more important with handgun grips.

A lot of people simply hold the rifle up and let it float out there on it's own. When you apply positive pressure to the rear and anchor the gun more on your chest, it helps stabilize the gun and helps improve recoil control. Also notice that his chin is significantly forward of his belt, another aid to recoil control.

Posted: 5/4/2010 4:17:59 AM EDT

[#36]

Quoted:
The real question is, did Bennie Cooley do it first?

http://www.uspsa.org/press/Bennie_Cooley_Rifle_3Gun_2002.jpg

3 gunners have been doing it for a long time...but most people see it through the Magpul DVD's.

Posted: 5/4/2010 4:25:00 AM EDT

[#37]

it hurts my rotator cuff just looking at it

Posted: 5/4/2010 4:25:07 AM EDT

[#38]

Who is Chris Costa? Is this one of those training video salesmen?

Posted: 5/4/2010 4:39:48 AM EDT

[#39]

It is interesting observing people who have a certain condescension about firearms instructors and training in general.......

Posted: 5/4/2010 4:43:28 AM EDT

[#40]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Meh, I've never had any issue gripping around the magazine well and keeping my elbows tight inside.

To each their own though.

less than 20 meters= this. tried the costa grip. made me feel like a douche

I used to shoot like that too.

It does nothing for managing my rifle's recoil for follow up shots. But like you said, it works for you, and at least you get out and train with your guns.

Holding a rifle at the magwell is like holding a pencil by the eraser and trying to write your name with it.

shooting at < 20 yards isn't exactly calligraphy

Shit, you don't even need to use the sights

Cool... Lets see your videos where you put 15 rounds COM into 3 different targets in 3.92 seconds...

^ This

ETA lets make it 4.5 seconds but give me brain pan shots on 3 targets without using your sights at 20 yards.

In body armor, helmet and them shooting back?

Posted: 5/4/2010 4:48:04 AM EDT

[#41]

Quoted:
It is interesting observing people who have a certain condescension about firearms instructors and training in general.......

For some of us it appears to have little real world application.
The drill on here is a counting drill.
I am sure its faster. how much faster is the question. Its not comfortable. You hold your rifle for hours in combat at a ready position and must be prepared to engage at anytime. why learn a position you can't hold for hours. you don't have time to change your grip.
to each their own and good on you for learning.
but what works on a one way on the range doesn't always work on two ways.

Posted: 5/4/2010 4:53:40 AM EDT

[#42]

Quoted:

Quoted:

It is interesting observing people who have a certain condescension about firearms instructors and training in general.......

For some of us it appears to have little real world application.

The drill on here is a counting drill.

I am sure its faster. how much faster is the question. Its not comfortable. You hold your rifle for hours in combat at a ready position and must be prepared to engage at anytime. why learn a position you can't hold for hours. you don't have time to change your grip.

to each their own and good on you for learning.

but what works on a one way on the range doesn't always work on two ways.

I'm about what works and with my long lanky arms, this method has zero use, but I've at least tried it and understand it's merits.

For us civi's, we will never be on any combat patrol. However, we may have to crab our carbine in the dark at night to engage an intruder, and in this case, the method would work fine.

What I'm alluding to though, with my original comment is the mentality of "oh I already know how to shoot guns and don't need any stinking instructor".

Most instructors are constantly changing they way they shoot and are constantly looking for the better method. I think that is something which is lost on a lot of people.

Posted: 5/4/2010 4:58:35 AM EDT

[#43]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Works for me:

http://www.youtube.com/studentshooters

Heck, I was doing it before Chris Costa was popular and other people were doing it before I was born!

Great video man,Thanks for posting

Glad you like it! That'll be our last tutorial but we'll be shooting half a dozen matches this year that will be faster paced.

Posted: 5/4/2010 5:03:45 AM EDT

[#44]

Quoted:
So they can sell these .

Except he's not using one of "those" and one of "those" would change that forward grip from "that"

Posted: 5/4/2010 5:04:57 AM EDT

[#45]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Works for me:

http://www.youtube.com/studentshooters

Heck, I was doing it before Chris Costa was popular and other people were doing it before I was born!

Great video man,Thanks for posting

Glad you like it! That'll be our last tutorial but we'll be shooting half a dozen matches this year that will be faster paced.

+1 on your vid.......cool stuff.

Posted: 5/4/2010 5:17:37 AM EDT

[#46]

Quoted:

Quoted:
It is interesting observing people who have a certain condescension about firearms instructors and training in general.......

For some of us it appears to have little real world application.
The drill on here is a counting drill.
I am sure its faster. how much faster is the question. Its not comfortable. You hold your rifle for hours in combat at a ready position and must be prepared to engage at anytime. why learn a position you can't hold for hours. you don't have time to change your grip.
to each their own and good on you for learning.
but what works on a one way on the range doesn't always work on two ways.

The problem is many won't except that fact, that as you pointed out some of the training is not applicable for those of us wear full combat gear.

I remember on a similar discussion months ago, I pointed out that in a MTV you couldn't get into most of the positions taught. You even had a Marine who also posts on this board who did go to the MPD class and later attempted to get in many of them in his gear back at his unit, Despite actually being strangled by his MTV, he just couldn't come out and say it didn't work.

Posted: 5/4/2010 5:19:08 AM EDT

[#47]

[
What I'm alluding to though, with my original comment is the mentality of "oh I already know how to shoot guns and don't need any stinking instructor".

Most instructors are constantly changing they way they shoot and are constantly looking for the better method. I think that is something which is lost on a lot of people.

This, in spades. I am so sick of hearing this argument. It seems people really have no desire to better themselves at all. I am not in the military, I will never be on combat patrol. The most I will ever do is run matches and take classes. I want to find what works the best for me and evolve that to become really good at it. If something else is introduced, I will look at it and see if it is worth it to learn or adapt. Why so many people are so resistant to that concept I will never understand.

Posted: 5/4/2010 5:19:38 AM EDT

[#48]

so they could have a reason to market this:

Posted: 5/4/2010 5:27:06 AM EDT

[#49]

Quoted:
That looks like a 5.56, so how much recoil is there really to mitigate, that can't be controlled with a normal, proper hold and technique?

er - enough to slow you down? maybe long enough to get you killed?

EDIT - nevermind. You all are right to make fun of MagPul's video. Slow is good. Take your time. Don't train. Don't buy the MagPul video & heaven forbid, don't practice! None of that matters, right? at least not to fudds anyway. Carry on.

Posted: 5/4/2010 5:35:53 AM EDT

[#50]

I have tried it, but not specifically with the AFG. So far I have found it occasionly useful for specific situations but too fatiguing for use as a standard combat grip.

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Serious question: Why does Chris Costa hold his rifle like this? (Page 3 of 6)

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