How many guns can I sell without a FFL? - Page 1

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - How many guns can I sell without a FFL?

Posted: 4/19/2010 6:41:40 AM EDT

How many guns can I sell without a FFL? Example: I see some great deals at a gun show or online. I buy the gun and resell it or modify / improve the gun and resell it.
Anyone know where the government draws the line on this?

Posted: 4/19/2010 6:47:59 AM EDT

[#1]

I'm pretty sure the line is drawn where you buy a gun for the purpose of reselling it to make a profit. I wouldn't even do it on one firearm let alone several.

Posted: 4/19/2010 6:49:49 AM EDT

[#2]

Quoted:

How many guns can I sell without a FFL? Example: I see some great deals at a gun show or online. I buy the gun and resell it or modify / improve the gun and resell it.

Anyone know where the government draws the line on this?

You would be breaking the law at 1 with your description.

Posted: 4/19/2010 6:50:37 AM EDT

[#3]

Not many..... just ask John Shipley.

Posted: 4/19/2010 6:51:15 AM EDT

[#4]

Quoted:

Quoted:
How many guns can I sell without a FFL? Example: I see some great deals at a gun show or online. I buy the gun and resell it or modify / improve the gun and resell it.
Anyone know where the government draws the line on this?

You would be breaking the law at 1 with your description.

You must improve the gun for your own personal use...and when you grow tired of it, you can then sell it. Does he have to sell it for a loss?

Posted: 4/19/2010 6:51:18 AM EDT

[#5]

all of em

Posted: 4/19/2010 6:55:42 AM EDT

[#6]

Quoted:
How many guns can I sell without a FFL? Example: I see some great deals at a gun show or online. I buy the gun and resell it or modify / improve the gun and resell it.
Anyone know where the government draws the line on this?

Wherever they want to. I believe the definition of "dealer" means "in the business of". So, is what you are doing a business?

Posted: 4/19/2010 6:58:14 AM EDT

[#7]

As an unlicensed person if you are buying/selling guns with the intent of making a profit you are asking for trouble. If you want to deal in firearms get your FFL.

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/curios-relics.html#dealers
What does “engaged in the business” mean?

The term “engaged in the business,” as applicable to a
firearms
dealer, is defined as a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to
dealing in firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the
principal objective of livelihood and profit through the repetitive
purchase and resale of firearms, but such term shall not include a
person who makes occasional sales, exchanges, or purchases of firearms
for the enhancement of a personal collection or for a hobby, or who
sells all or part of his personal collection of firearms.

[27 CFR 478.11]

http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&rgn=div8&view=text&node=27:3.0.1.2.3.2.1.1&idno=27
Dealer. Any person engaged in
the
business of selling firearms at wholesale or retail; any person engaged
in the business of repairing firearms or of making or fitting special
barrels, stocks, or trigger mechanisms to firearms; or any person who is
a pawnbroker. The term shall include any person who engages in such
business or occupation on a part-time basis.
(c) Dealer in firearms other than a
gunsmith or a pawnbroker. A person who devotes time, attention,
and
labor to dealing in firearms as a regular course of trade or business
with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the
repetitive purchase and resale of firearms, but such a term shall not
include a person who makes occasional sales, exchanges, or purchases of
firearms for the enhancement of a personal collection or for a hobby, or
who sells all or part of his personal collection of firearms;

Posted: 4/19/2010 6:59:13 AM EDT

[#8]

Quoted:

Quoted:
How many guns can I sell without a FFL? Example: I see some great deals at a gun show or online. I buy the gun and resell it or modify / improve the gun and resell it.
Anyone know where the government draws the line on this?

Wherever they want to. I believe the definition of "dealer" means "in the business of". So, is what you are doing a business could what you're doing/want to do be construed by some BATFE stooge as a business?

There, fixed it for 'ya.

Posted: 4/19/2010 7:08:44 AM EDT

[#9]

Whatever you do, be sure to advertise it on a public forum!

Hessian-1

Posted: 4/19/2010 7:16:14 AM EDT

[#10]

Hey whatever happened to all the jokers that bought 200+ stripped lowers before the election?

Posted: 4/19/2010 7:17:40 AM EDT

[#11]

Thanks guys, like a lot of Americans, I’m an upstanding guy with no intention of breaking the law.
The problem is : “I’m not a lawyer and the laws are complicated!”

This is the vague area:
“but such term shall not include a person who makes occasional sales, exchanges, or purchases of firearms for the enhancement of a personal collection or for a hobby, or who sells all or part of his personal collection of firearms.”

That seems to indicate that I could do this, but then there is this line:
“term shall include any person who engages in such business or occupation on a part-time basis.”

Which makes me think I can’t.
Selling guns would not be a “business” but rather just the occasional gun show or online auction sale”
I don’t have a “physical office or storefront” which makes the FFL thing difficult – not to mention the cost. But I guess I should probably contact the BATF on this one to avoid complications that I can’t afford to defend myself against.

Posted: 4/19/2010 7:17:47 AM EDT

[#12]

Quoted:

As an unlicensed person if you are buying/selling guns with the intent of making a profit you are asking for trouble. If you want to deal in firearms get your FFL.

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/curios-relics.html#dealers

What does “engaged in the business” mean?

The term “engaged in the business,” as applicable to a firearms dealer, is defined as a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to dealing in firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the repetitive purchase and resale of firearms, but such term shall not include a person who makes occasional sales, exchanges, or purchases of firearms for the enhancement of a personal collection or for a hobby, or who sells all or part of his personal collection of firearms.

[27 CFR 478.11]

http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&rgn=div8&view=text&node=27:3.0.1.2.3.2.1.1&idno=27

Dealer. Any person engaged in the business of selling firearms at wholesale or retail; any person engaged in the business of repairing firearms or of making or fitting special barrels, stocks, or trigger mechanisms to firearms; or any person who is a pawnbroker. The term shall include any person who engages in such business or occupation on a part-time basis.

(c) Dealer in firearms other than a gunsmith or a pawnbroker. A person who devotes time, attention, and labor to dealing in firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the repetitive purchase and resale of firearms, but such a term shall not include a person who makes occasional sales, exchanges, or purchases of firearms for the enhancement of a personal collection or for a hobby, or who sells all or part of his personal collection of firearms;

If you just see a good deal and want to buy and resell once... I'd say it is ok.

Posted: 4/19/2010 7:20:22 AM EDT

[#13]

Lots of folks buy and sell guns without an FFL and are at every gun show. I don't know what eventually gets them under BATFE scrutiny.

Heck, lots of FFL dealers don't make money, why should they have a license?

Posted: 4/19/2010 7:22:34 AM EDT

[#14]

Does anyone know of a person who got an ffl to get cheap deals on guns and was put OUT of business by atf?

Posted: 4/19/2010 7:31:56 AM EDT

[#15]

Quoted:
Does anyone know of a person who got an ffl to get cheap deals on guns and was put OUT of business by atf?

And if you have an FFL, then you are supposed to have customers. I believe that the law was written so that you could NEVER be in complete compliance.

Impeach Obama for Violating the Constitution.

Posted: 4/19/2010 7:32:45 AM EDT

[#16]

Quoted:

Quoted:
How many guns can I sell without a FFL? Example: I see some great deals at a gun show or online. I buy the gun and resell it or modify / improve the gun and resell it.
Anyone know where the government draws the line on this?

Wherever they want to. I believe the definition of "dealer" means "in the business of". So, is what you are doing a business could what you're doing/want to do be construed by some BATFE stooge as a business?

There, fixed it for 'ya.

It was a rhetorical question - I had already said that the Gov can draw the line where they want to.

Posted: 4/19/2010 7:36:37 AM EDT

[#17]

Quoted:

As an unlicensed person if you are buying/selling guns with the intent of making a profit you are asking for trouble. If you want to deal in firearms get your FFL.

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/curios-relics.html#dealers

What does “engaged in the business” mean?

The term “engaged in the business,” as applicable to a firearms dealer, is defined as a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to dealing in firearms as a occasional sales, exchanges, or purchases of firearms for the enhancement of a personal collection or for a hobby, or who sells all or part of his personal collection of firearms.

[27 CFR 478.11]

http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&rgn=div8&view=text&node=27:3.0.1.2.3.2.1.1&idno=27

Dealer. Any person engaged in the business of selling firearms at wholesale or retail; any person engaged in the business of repairing firearms or of making or fitting special barrels, stocks, or trigger mechanisms to firearms; or any person who is a pawnbroker. The term shall include any person who engages in such business or occupation on a part-time basis.

(c) Dealer in firearms other than a gunsmith or a pawnbroker. A person who devotes time, attention, and labor to dealing in firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the repetitive purchase and resale of firearms, but such a term shall not include a person who makes occasional sales, exchanges, or purchases of firearms for the enhancement of a personal collection or for a hobby, or who sells all or part of his personal collection of firearms;

If you just see a good deal and want to buy and resell once... I'd say it is ok.

Highlight the correct part - the first one is for FFL03's, not Joe Gunguy. Joe could, in theory, say it's a hobby, and hobbies ARE allowed to be profitable, but by the time he gets to court to prove it his life already effed.

Posted: 4/19/2010 7:37:38 AM EDT

[#18]

Quoted:
I buy the gun and resell it or modify / improve the gun and resell it.
Anyone know where the government draws the line on this?

Buying with the intent of resale = dealing and requires a Type 01 FFL.

Buying with the intent of modifying/improving and then reselling = manufacturing and requires a Type 07 FFL.

<–– 07 FFL

Posted: 4/19/2010 8:32:10 AM EDT

[#19]

Quoted:
Highlight the correct part - the first one is for FFL03's, not Joe Gunguy. Joe could, in theory, say it's a hobby, and hobbies ARE allowed to be profitable, but by the time he gets to court to prove it his life already effed.

A unlicensed dealer is whatever the AUSA can convince a federal grand jury to true bill the charges to indict you and jury to convict you of the charges. In the unlikely event you're acquitted at trial and beat the charges I guarantee you you won't beat the ride. Everything you do in life has certain cost/benefit risk associated with it. There is no way in hell I'm going to buy/sell/repair/modify firearms as an unlicensed person to make a few bucks and then expect a jury to believe it's my "hobby" at trial.
This guy sold on average only two guns per month over a 15 year period. Sucks to be him.
http://www.atf.gov/press/releases/2009/09/092409-tam-unlicensed-dealer-pleads-guilty.html

Unlicensed Firearms Dealer Pleads Guilty

Selling Firearms To Convicted Felons And Out Of
State Residents

PENSACOLA, Fla. — Acting United States Attorney Thomas F.
Kirwin, Northern District of Florida and Special Agent in Charge
Virginia O'Brien, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (
),
Tampa Field Division, announced today that Henry Richard HALE, 62, of
Pensacola, Florida, entered a plea of guilty to the eleven count
indictment returned by a federal grand jury. In a hearing before United
States Magistrate Judge Miles Davis, HALE admitted that he was not a
licensed dealer of firearms, but willfully engaged in the business of
dealing in firearms, to include sales to out-of-state residents and
convicted felons.

The
Pensacola Field Office investigated HALE as
one of several subjects illegally trafficking firearms. During the
investigation HALE sold 14 firearms at the T&W Flea Market and 1 at
his place of residence. A federal search warrant was executed at his
residence, resulting in the seizure of 19 additional firearms. As a
result of the investigation HALE admitted to selling over 400 firearms
during a fifteen year period.

HALE, who is not federally licensed as a firearms dealer, sold the
firearms to convicted felons and out-of-state residents and did not
document the transactions as required by federal law. The T&W Flea
Market does not authorize or allow the sale of firearms or ammunition at
its business location.

Special Agent in Charge Virginia O’Brien stated,
“Through his actions HALE has placed the entire community in jeopardy by
selling firearms to convicted felons. This case exemplifies why illegal
firearms trafficking must be stopped.”

This case is being prosecuted by Assistant United States Attorney
Tiffany H. Eggers.

Anyone having information on illegal gun activity should call
1-800-ATF-GUNS.

ATF is the federal agency with jurisdiction for
investigating federal firearms violations. More information about
and its programs is available at www.atf.gov.

Posted: 4/19/2010 8:49:27 AM EDT

[#20]

Quoted:

How many guns can I sell without a FFL? Example: I see some great deals at a gun show or online. I buy the gun and resell it or modify / improve the gun and resell it.

Anyone know where the government draws the line on this?

Take a look....

http://www.shipleylegalfund.com/

Posted: 4/19/2010 8:56:53 AM EDT

[#21]

Pigs get fat and hogs get slaughtered.

Posted: 4/19/2010 9:01:15 AM EDT

[#22]

Quoted:

Quoted:
How many guns can I sell without a FFL? Example: I see some great deals at a gun show or online. I buy the gun and resell it or modify / improve the gun and resell it.
Anyone know where the government draws the line on this?

Take a look....

http://www.shipleylegalfund.com/

That guy is accused of selling 50 firearms for profit over a 3 year period.