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cml2501
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Posted: 4/19/2010 10:41:40 AM
How many guns can I sell without a FFL? Example: I see some great deals at a gun show or online. I buy the gun and resell it or modify / improve the gun and resell it.
Anyone know where the government draws the line on this?
woodsie
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Posted: 4/19/2010 10:47:59 AM
I'm pretty sure the line is drawn where you buy a gun for the purpose of reselling it to make a profit. I wouldn't even do it on one firearm let alone several.


klinc
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Posted: 4/19/2010 10:49:49 AM

Originally Posted By cml2501:
How many guns can I sell without a FFL? Example: I see some great deals at a gun show or online. I buy the gun and resell it or modify / improve the gun and resell it.
Anyone know where the government draws the line on this?


You would be breaking the law at 1 with your description.
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Posted: 4/19/2010 10:50:37 AM
Not many..... just ask John Shipley.
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Posted: 4/19/2010 10:51:15 AM
Originally Posted By klinc:

Originally Posted By cml2501:
How many guns can I sell without a FFL? Example: I see some great deals at a gun show or online. I buy the gun and resell it or modify / improve the gun and resell it.
Anyone know where the government draws the line on this?


You would be breaking the law at 1 with your description.


You must improve the gun for your own personal use...and when you grow tired of it, you can then sell it. Does he have to sell it for a loss?
wardog513
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Posted: 4/19/2010 10:51:18 AM
all of em
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R2point0
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Posted: 4/19/2010 10:55:42 AM
Originally Posted By cml2501:
How many guns can I sell without a FFL? Example: I see some great deals at a gun show or online. I buy the gun and resell it or modify / improve the gun and resell it.
Anyone know where the government draws the line on this?


Wherever they want to. I believe the definition of "dealer" means "in the business of". So, is what you are doing a business?
rkbar15
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Posted: 4/19/2010 10:58:14 AM
[Last Edit: 4/19/2010 11:02:21 AM by rkbar15]
As an unlicensed person if you are buying/selling guns with the intent of making a profit you are asking for trouble. If you want to deal in firearms get your FFL.

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/curios-relics.html#dealers

What does “engaged in the business” mean?

The term “engaged in the business,” as applicable to a firearms dealer, is defined as a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to dealing in firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the repetitive purchase and resale of firearms, but such term shall not include a person who makes occasional sales, exchanges, or purchases of firearms for the enhancement of a personal collection or for a hobby, or who sells all or part of his personal collection of firearms.

[27 CFR 478.11]


http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&rgn=div8&view=text&node=27:3.0.1.2.3.2.1.1&idno=27

Dealer. Any person engaged in the business of selling firearms at wholesale or retail; any person engaged in the business of repairing firearms or of making or fitting special barrels, stocks, or trigger mechanisms to firearms; or any person who is a pawnbroker. The term shall include any person who engages in such business or occupation on a part-time basis.

(c) Dealer in firearms other than a gunsmith or a pawnbroker. A person who devotes time, attention, and labor to dealing in firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the repetitive purchase and resale of firearms, but such a term shall not include a person who makes occasional sales, exchanges, or purchases of firearms for the enhancement of a personal collection or for a hobby, or who sells all or part of his personal collection of firearms;
rockthecasbah
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Posted: 4/19/2010 10:59:13 AM
Originally Posted By R2point0:
Originally Posted By cml2501:
How many guns can I sell without a FFL? Example: I see some great deals at a gun show or online. I buy the gun and resell it or modify / improve the gun and resell it.
Anyone know where the government draws the line on this?


Wherever they want to. I believe the definition of "dealer" means "in the business of". So, is what you are doing a business could what you're doing/want to do be construed by some BATFE stooge as a business?




There, fixed it for 'ya.
Hessian-1
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Posted: 4/19/2010 11:08:44 AM
Whatever you do, be sure to advertise it on a public forum!

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HarryStone
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Posted: 4/19/2010 11:16:14 AM
Hey whatever happened to all the jokers that bought 200+ stripped lowers before the election?
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cml2501
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Posted: 4/19/2010 11:17:40 AM
Thanks guys, like a lot of Americans, I’m an upstanding guy with no intention of breaking the law.
The problem is : “I’m not a lawyer and the laws are complicated!”

This is the vague area:
“but such term shall not include a person who makes occasional sales, exchanges, or purchases of firearms for the enhancement of a personal collection or for a hobby, or who sells all or part of his personal collection of firearms.”

That seems to indicate that I could do this, but then there is this line:
“term shall include any person who engages in such business or occupation on a part-time basis.”

Which makes me think I can’t.
Selling guns would not be a “business” but rather just the occasional gun show or online auction sale”
I don’t have a “physical office or storefront” which makes the FFL thing difficult – not to mention the cost. But I guess I should probably contact the BATF on this one to avoid complications that I can’t afford to defend myself against.
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Posted: 4/19/2010 11:17:47 AM

Originally Posted By rkbar15:
As an unlicensed person if you are buying/selling guns with the intent of making a profit you are asking for trouble. If you want to deal in firearms get your FFL.

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/curios-relics.html#dealers

What does “engaged in the business” mean?

The term “engaged in the business,” as applicable to a firearms dealer, is defined as a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to dealing in firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the repetitive purchase and resale of firearms, but such term shall not include a person who makes occasional sales, exchanges, or purchases of firearms for the enhancement of a personal collection or for a hobby, or who sells all or part of his personal collection of firearms.

[27 CFR 478.11]


http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&rgn=div8&view=text&node=27:3.0.1.2.3.2.1.1&idno=27

Dealer. Any person engaged in the business of selling firearms at wholesale or retail; any person engaged in the business of repairing firearms or of making or fitting special barrels, stocks, or trigger mechanisms to firearms; or any person who is a pawnbroker. The term shall include any person who engages in such business or occupation on a part-time basis.

(c) Dealer in firearms other than a gunsmith or a pawnbroker. A person who devotes time, attention, and labor to dealing in firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the repetitive purchase and resale of firearms, but such a term shall not include a person who makes occasional sales, exchanges, or purchases of firearms for the enhancement of a personal collection or for a hobby, or who sells all or part of his personal collection of firearms;

If you just see a good deal and want to buy and resell once... I'd say it is ok.

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wildearp
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Posted: 4/19/2010 11:20:22 AM
Lots of folks buy and sell guns without an FFL and are at every gun show. I don't know what eventually gets them under BATFE scrutiny.

Heck, lots of FFL dealers don't make money, why should they have a license?
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71Mustang
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Posted: 4/19/2010 11:22:34 AM
Does anyone know of a person who got an ffl to get cheap deals on guns and was put OUT of business by atf?
gunham
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Posted: 4/19/2010 11:31:56 AM
Originally Posted By 71Mustang:
Does anyone know of a person who got an ffl to get cheap deals on guns and was put OUT of business by atf?


And if you have an FFL, then you are supposed to have customers. I believe that the law was written so that you could NEVER be in complete compliance.




Impeach Obama for Violating the Constitution.
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Posted: 4/19/2010 11:32:45 AM
Originally Posted By rockthecasbah:
Originally Posted By R2point0:
Originally Posted By cml2501:
How many guns can I sell without a FFL? Example: I see some great deals at a gun show or online. I buy the gun and resell it or modify / improve the gun and resell it.
Anyone know where the government draws the line on this?


Wherever they want to. I believe the definition of "dealer" means "in the business of". So, is what you are doing a business could what you're doing/want to do be construed by some BATFE stooge as a business?




There, fixed it for 'ya.


It was a rhetorical question - I had already said that the Gov can draw the line where they want to.
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Posted: 4/19/2010 11:36:37 AM
Originally Posted By LuckyDucky:

Originally Posted By rkbar15:
As an unlicensed person if you are buying/selling guns with the intent of making a profit you are asking for trouble. If you want to deal in firearms get your FFL.

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/curios-relics.html#dealers

What does “engaged in the business” mean?

The term “engaged in the business,” as applicable to a firearms dealer, is defined as a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to dealing in firearms as a occasional sales, exchanges, or purchases of firearms for the enhancement of a personal collection or for a hobby, or who sells all or part of his personal collection of firearms.

[27 CFR 478.11]


http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&rgn=div8&view=text&node=27:3.0.1.2.3.2.1.1&idno=27

Dealer. Any person engaged in the business of selling firearms at wholesale or retail; any person engaged in the business of repairing firearms or of making or fitting special barrels, stocks, or trigger mechanisms to firearms; or any person who is a pawnbroker. The term shall include any person who engages in such business or occupation on a part-time basis.

(c) Dealer in firearms other than a gunsmith or a pawnbroker. A person who devotes time, attention, and labor to dealing in firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the repetitive purchase and resale of firearms, but such a term shall not include a person who makes occasional sales, exchanges, or purchases of firearms for the enhancement of a personal collection or for a hobby, or who sells all or part of his personal collection of firearms;

If you just see a good deal and want to buy and resell once... I'd say it is ok.



Highlight the correct part - the first one is for FFL03's, not Joe Gunguy. Joe could, in theory, say it's a hobby, and hobbies ARE allowed to be profitable, but by the time he gets to court to prove it his life already effed.
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Posted: 4/19/2010 11:37:38 AM
Originally Posted By cml2501:
I buy the gun and resell it or modify / improve the gun and resell it.
Anyone know where the government draws the line on this?


Buying with the intent of resale = dealing and requires a Type 01 FFL.

Buying with the intent of modifying/improving and then reselling = manufacturing and requires a Type 07 FFL.

<–– 07 FFL
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rkbar15
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Posted: 4/19/2010 12:32:10 PM
[Last Edit: 4/19/2010 12:33:11 PM by rkbar15]

Originally Posted By R2point0:

Highlight the correct part - the first one is for FFL03's, not Joe Gunguy. Joe could, in theory, say it's a hobby, and hobbies ARE allowed to be profitable, but by the time he gets to court to prove it his life already effed.


A unlicensed dealer is whatever the AUSA can convince a federal grand jury to true bill the charges to indict you and jury to convict you of the charges. In the unlikely event you're acquitted at trial and beat the charges I guarantee you you won't beat the ride. Everything you do in life has certain cost/benefit risk associated with it. There is no way in hell I'm going to buy/sell/repair/modify firearms as an unlicensed person to make a few bucks and then expect a jury to believe it's my "hobby" at trial.

This guy sold on average only two guns per month over a 15 year period. Sucks to be him.

http://www.atf.gov/press/releases/2009/09/092409-tam-unlicensed-dealer-pleads-guilty.html

Unlicensed Firearms Dealer Pleads Guilty

Selling Firearms To Convicted Felons And Out Of State Residents



PENSACOLA, Fla. — Acting United States Attorney Thomas F. Kirwin, Northern District of Florida and Special Agent in Charge Virginia O'Brien, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives ( ), Tampa Field Division, announced today that Henry Richard HALE, 62, of Pensacola, Florida, entered a plea of guilty to the eleven count indictment returned by a federal grand jury. In a hearing before United States Magistrate Judge Miles Davis, HALE admitted that he was not a licensed dealer of firearms, but willfully engaged in the business of dealing in firearms, to include sales to out-of-state residents and convicted felons.

The Pensacola Field Office investigated HALE as one of several subjects illegally trafficking firearms. During the investigation HALE sold 14 firearms at the T&W Flea Market and 1 at his place of residence. A federal search warrant was executed at his residence, resulting in the seizure of 19 additional firearms. As a result of the investigation HALE admitted to selling over 400 firearms during a fifteen year period.

HALE, who is not federally licensed as a firearms dealer, sold the firearms to convicted felons and out-of-state residents and did not document the transactions as required by federal law. The T&W Flea Market does not authorize or allow the sale of firearms or ammunition at its business location.

Special Agent in Charge Virginia O’Brien stated, “Through his actions HALE has placed the entire community in jeopardy by selling firearms to convicted felons. This case exemplifies why illegal firearms trafficking must be stopped.”

This case is being prosecuted by Assistant United States Attorney Tiffany H. Eggers.

Anyone having information on illegal gun activity should call 1-800-ATF-GUNS.

ATF is the federal agency with jurisdiction for investigating federal firearms violations. More information about and its programs is available at www.atf.gov.
freeflow
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Posted: 4/19/2010 12:49:27 PM

Originally Posted By cml2501:
How many guns can I sell without a FFL? Example: I see some great deals at a gun show or online. I buy the gun and resell it or modify / improve the gun and resell it.
Anyone know where the government draws the line on this?

Take a look....


http://www.shipleylegalfund.com/
ATF issued a ruling that states:"Any person who is engaged in the business of camouflaging....
http://www.atf.gov/regulations-rulings/rulings/atf-rulings/atf-ruling-2009-1.pdf

www.amrarmament.com
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Posted: 4/19/2010 12:56:53 PM


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Posted: 4/19/2010 1:01:15 PM
Originally Posted By freeflow:

Originally Posted By cml2501:
How many guns can I sell without a FFL? Example: I see some great deals at a gun show or online. I buy the gun and resell it or modify / improve the gun and resell it.
Anyone know where the government draws the line on this?

Take a look....


http://www.shipleylegalfund.com/


That guy is accused of selling 50 firearms for profit over a 3 year period.
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Posted: 4/19/2010 1:18:15 PM
Originally Posted By HarryStone:
Hey whatever happened to all the jokers that bought 200+ stripped lowers before the election?



They have a closet full of lowers that are worth less now then what they paid for them.
This business will get out of control. It will get out of control and we'll be lucky to live through it.