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 abpt1
46 75 63 6b 20 59 6f 75 &
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Posted: 3/25/2010 3:19:15 PM
[Last Edit: 3/25/2010 3:19:52 PM by abpt1]
82nd I am in for $500.00 worth of brass .
Originally Posted By EightySecond: Just a simple EUC form and there's 500,000 lbs (yes that's Five Hundred Thousand) of 5.56 brass in auction @ Gov Liq waiting for an ARFCOM Group Buy over at Ft. Benning folks.  Likely 100% Lake City recent stamps.I'm in if you are.  |
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Sub-MOA
S P Q R
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Posted: 3/25/2010 3:21:49 PM
Ok, that's the fourth credible source I've heard this from...
Hey ATK, I know your folks read and post here. FYI: I just did a quick scan of receipts and I spent a little over $8500 with you and your subsidiaries in the past twelve months. Until this issue as been addressed by someone at VP level or higher, I'm done buying your stuff. There's too many other higher quality options available. |
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Posted: 3/25/2010 3:22:10 PM
[Last Edit: 3/25/2010 3:27:08 PM by Squatch]
Originally Posted By Garand_Shooter:
Originally Posted By Rogue-Sasquatch:
Remember your mantras, ARfcom. This is Capitalism. Ethics are irrelevant. Profit over everything else... ...including the needs of our soldiers. This has nothing to do with the needs of Soldiers. It has to do with installation commanders choosing to sell a commodity under market value so they can keep the funds, instead of selling it at market value and sending the $$ to the US Treasury. Raising money for MWR is good. Doing it in a manner that is not a responsible manner of handling government funds it not. As for ethics, ATK was free to do what they did, yes. But now they have to live with is the consequences of that action- and that means pissing off their customer base. Corrected my mistake: The DRMS will retain out of the proceeds of sales of such property, amounts sufficient to offset all expenses incurred in the disposition of excess/surplus personal property. Otherwise, the excess will be deposited in a general account with the Treasury. |
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gonzo_beyondo
... the other side!
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Posted: 3/25/2010 3:58:07 PM
Originally Posted By Gunwritr: WOW, I am surprised this got out already. I have been researching this out, and it looks BAD for ATK. An officer at Fort Riley contacted me about it after speaking with an ATK rep concerning the destruction of fired brass. This individual was very insistent that the brass needed to be destroyed to keep it out of the hands of terrorists or it could be reloaded and used against the US Mil. or LE. He stated that soldiers lives were being endangered by not destroying the brass. ATK literature on this is pretty damning from what I have seen. ATK very well might have just set them up to be the next Zumbo........... stay tuned for more...... Time for someone to hit the unemployment line.  |
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Metonymy
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Posted: 3/25/2010 4:08:59 PM
[Last Edit: 3/25/2010 4:11:08 PM by Metonymy]
Originally Posted By grumpalicious:
However this is seems more about increasing profits through good business practices to me, rather than trying to bone my reloading brothers. Obviously they cannot reload brass for military contracts. It must be new brass. Metals are still in high demand and hard to come by. This seems like a very logical way to get their hands on a ready supply of the needed materials to continue producing the cartrige cases they need to meet their contracts and to turn a nice profit. Let me break it down: - Taxpayers give money to government. - Government buys ammo from supplier. - Government shoots ammo and has spent brass which is worth something. - Supplier wants to buy spent brass back at "scrap" prices so they can melt/reuse. - Supplier keeps selling back to government. The problem here? Given that the government uses OUR tax dollars to buy this, they should have the right to sell the spent brass to the HIGHEST BIDDER (aka: as spent brass to the private market). They will recoup much more from selling the spent brass in-tact than they will by selling it as "scrap" back to the supplier. WE the citizens need to put an end to this bullshit. If a company wants to maximize their profits, then fine. They can outbid the private market for the spent brass. But they shouldn't have the right to force the government to sell it back to them as scrap when the government can get much higher value from it by selling it at auction to the highest bidder. |
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rangermonroe
(CH2-N-NO2)3.
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Posted: 3/25/2010 4:21:53 PM
If you look at the PDF on page 21 or so, they want to de-mil ammo cans too.
Ammo Cans. AMMO CANS! They will buy the scrap at scrap value - cost too. Win, win for ATK and... well, no one. But it will keep ammo cans out of the hands of the terra-wrists and civilians. Bets on who owns or plans on soon owning an ammo can Mfg operation? To PREVENT anyone from using your scrap ammunition components for non-military purposes. |
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LGK
Apocalypse Now...Bring It!!!
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Posted: 3/25/2010 4:26:49 PM
Originally Posted By rangermonroe:
If you look at the PDF on page 21 or so, they want to de-mil ammo cans too. Ammo Cans. AMMO CANS! They will buy the scrap at scrap value - cost too. Win, win for ATK and... well, no one. But it will keep ammo cans out of the hands of the terra-wrists and civilians. Bets on who owns or plans on soon owning an ammo can Mfg operation? To PREVENT anyone from using your scrap ammunition components for non-military purposes.  |
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yakrat101
My indifference curve looks like a cliff face.
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Posted: 3/25/2010 4:49:38 PM
So we have a system set up to deal with the surplussing of spent brass and now ATK wants to bypass this system.
I can understand their motivation but until this is rectified I don't see myself buying any more ATK affiliated products. |
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pcsutton
Member ....but not a 3rd member
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Posted: 3/25/2010 4:56:25 PM
Originally Posted By GonzoAR15-1: The notion that there is anything "special" about military grade brass so as to require that it be demilled is absurd. Exactly. |
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Posted: 3/25/2010 5:01:03 PM
Capitalism is a bitch! ATK Mil plant operators see $$$ in recycling now, probably cheaper than buying fresh brass from the Chinese. How about Montana Sports, or whoever seeing if they can compete with ATK and pay more for policing the brass at the govt ranges than the ATK reps?
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Posted: 3/25/2010 5:16:56 PM
WTF? This makes me want to get rid of all my RCBS reloading stuff and support another company!
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Posted: 3/25/2010 6:10:49 PM
The following information was given earlier in this thread. I am going to call the corporate number and see if a customer service dept. is available.
maybe all of us should call and spend a few minutes telling them what we think and that we are done buying their consumer products for good!!! ATK Corp. 7480 Flying Cloud Drive Minneapolis, MN 55344 Telephone––––- 952-351-3000 email–––––––––– atkcorporate@atk.com |
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Posted: 3/25/2010 6:13:14 PM
Originally Posted By P7-PSP:
The following information was given earlier in this thread. I am going to call the corporate number and see if a customer service dept. is available. maybe all of us should call and spend a few minutes telling them what we think and that we are done buying their consumer products for good!!! ATK Corp. 7480 Flying Cloud Drive Minneapolis, MN 55344 Telephone––––- 952-351-3000 email–––––––––– atkcorporate@atk.com Can't call right now but I did send ATK an e-mail stating just that! |
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1Andy2
I love children. With sweet and sour sauce.
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Posted: 3/25/2010 6:16:05 PM
Originally Posted By CCW:
Capitalism is a bitch! ATK Mil plant operators see $$$ in recycling now, probably cheaper than buying fresh brass from the Chinese. How about Montana Sports, or whoever seeing if they can compete with ATK and pay more for policing the brass at the govt ranges than the ATK reps? The government forced you the taxpayer to pay for equipment. It is now done with said equipment. Free market capitalism would be the government auctioning off the equipment to the highest bidder, as is. Not mutilating it at the behest of and to the financial gain of a single party without allowing anyone else a chance to pay the market value. This is not capitalism. |
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1Andy2
I love children. With sweet and sour sauce.
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Posted: 3/25/2010 6:18:18 PM
Originally Posted By abpt1:
82nd I am in for $500.00 worth of brass . Originally Posted By EightySecond:
Just a simple EUC form and there's 500,000 lbs (yes that's Five Hundred Thousand) of 5.56 brass in auction @ Gov Liq waiting for an ARFCOM Group Buy over at Ft. Benning folks. Likely 100% Lake City recent stamps.
I'm in if you are.
If you're going to do a "group buy," as in agree not to bid against eachother on the same auction, for God's sake don't talk about it on a public internet forum. It's technically against the law, I believe (Sherman Anti-trust Act), and if it's a big enough deal they will probably slam your ass for it. |
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rangermonroe
(CH2-N-NO2)3.
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Posted: 3/25/2010 6:18:49 PM
Originally Posted By P7-PSP: guys, don't waste your time. The following information was given earlier in this thread. I am going to call the corporate number and see if a customer service dept. is available. maybe all of us should call and spend a few minutes telling them what we think and that we are done buying their consumer products for good!!! ATK Corp. 7480 Flying Cloud Drive Minneapolis, MN 55344 Telephone––––- 952-351-3000 email–––––––––– atkcorporate@atk.com Do you really think that someone who is doing something that is skating the razors edge of criminal behavior and hoping to bank millions of dollars cares that you are not going to buy a couple hundred dollars worth of ammo? Really? These guys own Lake City, Speer, and Federal. Hundreds of million$ in sales, they don't care about you or I. They do care about the .gov contract though. Hmmmm. Has anyone talked to Tommy Milner yet about this? He might be able to bring some weight.  |
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Posted: 3/25/2010 6:19:29 PM
waste
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Posted: 3/25/2010 6:24:02 PM
I just phoned ATK corporate and was directed to a ladies phone extension. She was not in but I left a message for her to call me. I may not hear from her till tomorrow. I will let you folks know what I find out when I get a call back.
I feel at this time that working through ATK will probably be a dead end, but if they care about customer satisfaction then who knows. I think the best route may be as stated earlier in this thread........complaining to Congressmen and Senators and threatening post/base commanders that letters to local newspapers and news media will occur if the commanders make back room deals with ATK. |
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Orygunxj
Far right.
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Posted: 3/25/2010 6:36:55 PM
In for later reading.
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vbfg135
I am not your Daddy!
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Posted: 3/25/2010 6:42:26 PM
tagging my name on the wall
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Posted: 3/25/2010 7:24:36 PM
Originally Posted By KerryW: Originally Posted By dwkennedy: Originally Posted By KerryW: I don't have a problem with ATK working deals with installation commanders. If I was working at ATK I would go after this as a cost reduction effort. However the language of keeping the brass out of supposed domestic enemies is very disturbing. The installation commanders have a duty to the public to maximize the benefit to the public that they supposedly serve. That would mean sending the brass to Gov. Liquidation, not destroying it simply because it puts more money directly in their pocket. Shame on ATK for promoting this vile nonsense. They fit the textbook definition of hypocrites, arguing for keeping military ammo from civilians then selling their manufacturing seconds to... civilians. This is so ridiculous my BS meter is pegged. I wonder if it is verifiable? ETA: I just read the ATK solicitation PDFs. Yes, it's a real program. That is nonsense. They have the duty of running their assigned installation as effectively and as efficiently as possible. If they have the ability to take a waste product (which brass is) from a consumable that they purchased, and turn that into additional funds for the installation (which results in increased training budgets ect..) then they should take advantage of that opportunity. If ATK has the opportunity to reduce cost by working a deal with their brass supplier, they have an obligation to their stock holders to do so.
The problem here is ATK's market approach for this service/product. It is repugnant that they would take this approach and need to be call on the carpet for it.
And yes I am a reloader and I use alot of processed .mil brass. I would not like to see the availability of .mil brass to decline, however if through this program Commanders are able to increase training budgets (you know... for things like ammo, which is always a concern for commanders while in garrison) and ATK is able to reduce it's cost - which commanders could also leverage into price reductions for training ammo - it is a massive win for the entire ammo procurement process for the .mil.
So while I would like to see a continued good supply of processed .mil brass, this seems like a good way to increase of training budgets for our troops and potentially to reduce overall ammo costs form ATK - they are still scumbags for marketing it they way they are Yeah but the shit don't belong to the base commanders or ATK. It belongs to the tax payers and should be put up for public bid like all military surplus should. Fuck ATK! and their stock holders. Fuck obungo too!! |
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Posted: 3/25/2010 8:18:10 PM
Is knuckle dragger former Homeland Security Neapolitan Icecream involved in this idiocy?
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Matt45
كافر غاŸ
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Posted: 3/25/2010 8:27:31 PM
Copy of the E-mail I sent a few moments ago.
To Whom it May Concern:
Per your comments below, barring a very public apology, you've lost a customer, and my financial support. You have made your customer base out to be domestic terrorists.
Quotes from ATK program sales literature: "Currently handling brass scrap for ATK Lake City –– for sole purpose of recycling material and preventing any reloading of spent cases by the public with military grade brass." "Keeps Military Grade Brass from being re-loaded by unauthorized users." "To PREVENT anyone from using your scrap ammunition components for non-military purposes." "Assurability for the [military] installation, that no one can use this cartridge against law enforcement or our military personnel, by reloading the case." I will do my assured best to inform EVERY sportsman, service member, American Patriot and Pro-Second Amendment member of the media that I know. I will make a solemn point to contact every gun-owner I've ever met expressively for informing THEM of your actions.
You have held yourself out to be a corporation hostile to the Citizens of this country, the contempt you hold us in is only out shadowed by my own contempt for you.
Let's see how you like it when myself and millions of gun owners no longer support you and all of your affiliates. Matt45 XXXXXXX WA ATK Affiliates: Alliant Powder Champion Eagle Industries Gunslick Intensity Nitrex Outers Ram-Line RCBS Shooters Ridge Weaver Black Cloud Ammo Blazer Ammunition CCI Ammunition Estate Cartridge Federal Premium Fusion Ammunition Law Enforcement Speer Ammo Speer Bullets |
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Garand_Shooter
Worrisome Veteran
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Posted: 3/25/2010 8:29:42 PM
Originally Posted By KerryW:
That is nonsense. They have the duty of running their assigned installation as effectively and as efficiently as possible. If they have the ability to take a waste product (which brass is) from a consumable that they purchased, and turn that into additional funds for the installation (which results in increased training budgets ect..) then they should take advantage of that opportunity. Negative- they have a duty to be as good and responsible a steward of the taxpayers money as they can. Selling the items at a reduced cost, bringing a reduced return to the taxpayers, so they can funnel the money to projects on their installation instead of the US Treasury is not responsible to the taxpayer. If they got the same money, it could be argued they are being responsible. They are accepting a lower price when a higher one can be had. Second, the installation never purchased that ammo, so the arguement they are just getting some installation money back for the installation is not valid. The ammo was purchased by the DOD and budgeted to the units that fired it, never on the installations account. |
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Posted: 3/25/2010 9:35:56 PM
Bump for Friday.
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HeavyMetal
Veteran of a Thousand Psychic Wars
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Posted: 3/25/2010 9:44:09 PM
Has the NRA been notified?
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Posted: 3/25/2010 9:53:05 PM
Hey ATK! Eat shit, fuck off and die. Strong message to follow!
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rangermonroe
(CH2-N-NO2)3.
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Posted: 3/25/2010 10:15:27 PM
Originally Posted By HeavyMetal: Has the NRA been notified?  are you really asking this, or being sarcastic? Regardless, that was funny. I bet Wayne LaPierre is tossing and turning over this issue. The poor bastard. |
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HeavyMetal
Veteran of a Thousand Psychic Wars
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Posted: 3/25/2010 10:23:47 PM
Don't Laugh. They stopped this shit the last time.
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HK_Shooter_03
Thanks for the Awesome Avatar Crishel!
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Posted: 3/25/2010 10:34:52 PM
This needs a tack - this effects us all.
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Posted: 3/25/2010 11:08:18 PM
I just took a quick look at their last 10k report and their contract to run Lake City expires on 4/1/2014. Here's the link and text...
ATK 10K report "We manufacture a variety of small-caliber training and tactical ammunition rounds at the Lake City Army Ammunition Plant in Independence, Missouri, where production totaled approximately 1.4 billion rounds in fiscal year 2009. The Lake City contract represented approximately 12% of ATK's total fiscal 2009 sales. ATK took over operation of this facility on April 1, 2000 and is responsible for the operation and management, including leasing excess space to third parties in the private sector. ATK has a 10-year production contract to supply the Army's small-caliber ammunition needs that expires April 1, 2010. ATK has reached agreement with the U.S. Army on a four-year supply contract as the primary supplier of small-caliber ammunition to the Department of Defense ("DoD"). Production on the new contract is expected to continue into fiscal 2014. During this same period, ATK will complete government funded projects for modernization of the facility. ATK also has a facilities-use contract for the plant that expires in April 2025. The facilities-use contract expires 11 years after the plant production contract and, if the plant production contract is not renewed, ATK believes the U.S. Army would relieve ATK of all of its obligations under the facilities-use contract. We also conduct small-caliber ammunition research, development, and test activities for the U.S. Army. Current projects include the development of caseless ammunition, and the technology to replace lead in training ammunition with more environmentally friendly materials. " |
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ViniVidivici
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Posted: 3/25/2010 11:34:05 PM
Originally Posted By usp4u:
This should be a highlighted and tacked. People need to know about this. This is literal sabotoge. I agree. FUCK ATK. This is bullshit. |
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WesDesRat
Resident West Desert Rat
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Posted: 3/25/2010 11:51:27 PM
tagged
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Posted: 3/26/2010 12:07:22 AM
A big corp makes its profit from screwing people , High brass prices means the big bonus.
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AirRaceFan
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Posted: 3/26/2010 12:20:06 AM
Perhaps contacting ATK directly may not help, but how about contacting customer svc and PR depts at the companies they own such as Speer and Federal. I'd think if they heard about how their parent's actions is going to hurt their bottom line they might pick up the private line and make a call.
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Posted: 3/26/2010 12:25:50 AM
So first they make XM855F and piss everyone off, now this shit?
I'm done buying any Lake City anything. |
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charliez
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Posted: 3/26/2010 2:11:25 AM
At the very least this is anti-competitive behavior, removing public domain brass from competing with ATK made brass.
Providing commanders equipment or facilitating it is corporate bribe (Federal law) Redirecting funds to unit recreational funds allows commanders to purchase items using that budget but used for himself is criminal activity (Federal law) Finally, redirecting US Treasury to units recreational fund is mishandling of treasury funds (IRS) As the funds are redirected as unit income, is tax fraud when tax is not paid (IRS, Federal law) |
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TheKill
With God, all things are possible. Me-maybe not.
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Posted: 3/26/2010 4:56:56 AM
[Last Edit: 3/26/2010 4:57:41 AM by TheKill]
Fuck ATK and all it's affiliates up the ass with a red hot poker. No wonder ammo is still so expensive. I'm sure they are dragging their feet to improve supply just like the oil companies do, and then this on top of it? FUATK!
I'm not making a single purchase from an ATK company in 2010. Period. |
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tyman
It's about the smiles and the cries...
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Posted: 3/26/2010 5:35:30 AM
Originally Posted By P7-PSP:
P-L-E-A-S-E...................... CALL YOUR U.S. SENATOR'S AND CONGRESSIONAL REP'S OFFICE NOW!!! ALSO CALL SENATOR JON TESTOR'S WASH. D.C. OFFICE AND SENATOR MAX BAUCUS'S OFFICE. Tell them we need their help and WE NEED IT NOW!!! Write me up a form letter and I'll send it to my reps/senators. |
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Posted: 3/26/2010 6:13:34 AM
The real question is who in the US Army / DoD determines whether to renew the lake city contract when it expires, and what form of bad publicity will it take to make them choose someone new.
Also - when do the negotiations start so this does not slide through the cracks. |
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Posted: 3/26/2010 8:15:35 AM
Originally Posted By dragongoddess:
I wouldn't have cared that much except for the language used. That alone means contacting local federal Reps. to ask that they look into said problem. Can the OP scan and post the brochure with the language. I wouldn't have cared, if ATK bid in the Gov Liq. auctions like everybody else for scrap brass. They are conspiring with the base commanders to commit waste, fraud, and abuse. waste = destroy valuable government property that could have been sold at a profit fraud = divert brass from usual surplus stream; sell surplus property non-competitively abuse = abuse their position of power. Military is still part of the Executive branch of Government and has a duty to serve the public. Wasting money doesn't serve the public interest. If it is legal and ethical to destroy scrap brass (to benefit ATK and the base commander) then why not divert EVERY resource from open, competitive surplus sales? Think about how much money that could generate for the base commander's discretion. The base commander has an obligation not to lie, steal, cheat, and to act in a legal and ethical manner, does he or she not? How can anyone argue that redirecting the brass for destruction instead of reuse is effective recycling OR ethical behavior? If it's ethical to sell any base resource for profit, then I'd like to place an order for a surplus F16. I promise to use it to kill terrorists only, so it's a win-win situation all around. |
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Posted: 3/26/2010 10:25:39 AM
I figured I would not hear back from ATK.
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oldschool63
No Beans in Chili
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Posted: 3/26/2010 12:51:31 PM
I e mailed ATK yesterday and got this reply today
Dear valued customer: Thank you for bringing the scrap brass program information to our attention. ATK is a strong supporter of our armed forces, the shooting sports industry, second amendment rights and all of our customers who choose to reload ammunition. In fact, ATK is a leader in the reloading market. A dated brochure and presentation have caused confusion in the marketplace and do not reflect the views of our company and will be immediately withdrawn. As a service to our military customers, we routinely handle demil operations for various munitions and respond to requests from military installations for reclamation and recycling of military items. Each contract is awarded through the military installation’s procurement process. The installations receive fair value for the brass. ATK fully supports the provision passed by Congress last year to ensure that demilitarized spent brass casings remain available for civilian use. We appreciate your support of our industry. |
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TheKill
With God, all things are possible. Me-maybe not.
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Posted: 3/26/2010 1:04:09 PM
[Last Edit: 3/26/2010 1:05:10 PM by TheKill]
Originally Posted By oldschool63:
I e mailed ATK yesterday and got this reply today Dear valued customer: Thank you for bringing the scrap brass program information to our attention. ATK is a strong supporter of our armed forces, the shooting sports industry, second amendment rights and all of our customers who choose to reload ammunition. In fact, ATK is a leader in the reloading market. NOT FOR LONG. A dated brochure and presentation have caused confusion in the marketplace and do not reflect the views of our company and will be immediately withdrawn. As a service to our military customers, we routinely handle demil operations for various munitions and respond to requests from military installations for reclamation and recycling of military items. Each contract is awarded through the military installation’s procurement process. The installations receive fair value for the brass.
Sounds like hogwash. "A dated presentation - confusion in the marketplace (so we are "confused", eh?), will be immediately withdrawn". I bet. How about delivering the severed head of the liberal, anti American, anti freedom, anti-civilian shooter ATK employed turd who wrote it. I MIGHT settle for that. "The installation recieves fair value" is double speak, and still indicates a back door deal directly with the installation for the brass to stay back channel back to ATK. ATK fully supports the provision passed by Congress last year to ensure that demilitarized spent brass casings remain available for civilian use.
We appreciate your support of our industry. Spent brass CASINGS? I thought it was spent brass cases? Whomever wrote this was just trying to CYA. ZERO sincerity. FUATK. [/quote] |
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phlegm
I am me.
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Posted: 3/26/2010 1:14:50 PM
Wrote to my senators and congressman this morning.
You do it, too. |
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Posted: 3/26/2010 1:25:17 PM
What does it mean? There seems to be weasel words in there. What does "support making demilitarized spent brass casings available to the public" mean? [ETA] I support that as well, but how does ATK support that (change of company policy or not)?
Does this mean they are no longer going to contract crushing brass for contracts let by base commanders, who have been circumventing DMSO rules for base fund raisers? |
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RyJones
I don't hate you, I just don't care
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Posted: 3/26/2010 1:32:26 PM
done with ATK. Fuckers.
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Posted: 3/26/2010 3:03:31 PM
tag
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rangermonroe
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Joined: Oct 2006 GA, USA
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Posted: 3/26/2010 4:22:16 PM
BTT for interesting e-mail responses
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Posted: 3/26/2010 4:23:10 PM
Originally Posted By rangermonroe:
BTT for interesting e-mail responses Ditto: Dear valued customer:
Thank you for bringing the scrap brass program information to our attention. ATK is a strong supporter of our armed forces, the shooting sports industry, second amendment rights and all of our customers who choose to reload ammunition. In fact, ATK is a leader in the reloading market. A dated brochure and presentation have caused confusion in the marketplace and do not reflect the views of our company and will be immediately withdrawn. As a service to our military customers, we routinely handle demil operations for various munitions and respond to requests from military installations for reclamation and recycling of military items. Each contract is awarded through the military installation’s procurement process. The installations receive fair value for the brass. ATK fully supports the provision passed by Congress last year to ensure that demilitarized spent brass casings remain available for civilian use. We appreciate your support of our industry. |
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