My son has been in the Army for two and half years now.  He is a Cav Scout and is deployed right now.  He spent his first year in Korea.

He went in as an E-2 and has been a pretty straight trooper.  He has not got into any trouble and is pretty well liked by upper management.  I saw him off on deployment and met several of his senior NCOs and Officers.  They all told me he was an outstanding trooper.  He has a good attitude and takes responsibility.  He is a natural leader and well liked.  In high school he was captain of the wrestling team and prom king so you know he is not a loser.

He is an E-4 now.  He passed the E-5 Board last fall.  However, he has missed being promoted by just a few points each month.  He didn't have any college credit and he can't take any on line courses being deployed and that is hurting him in promotion points.  His Combat Action Badge helped with points but not enough to put him over.

His enlistment is up in July but he has been extended to finish his deployment until November.

He has been told by his Pl that he won't get promoted to E-5 because he only has a few months to go in the Army even if he meets the point requirements.  He is pissed about that.  As a consolation they made him a Corporal instead of a Sp-4.  That news is really disappointing to him because he has been put in for a decoration as a result of some action just before Christmas.  He is thinking that the points from the decoration will be enough to put him over. He is really pissed because they are looking at his July date instead of the extended November date.

When I was in (Vietnam era) you could get promoted to E-5 right up to the time you got discharged.  Is this freeze on promotion a few months prior to ETS an Army wide thing or is it a Regiment or Squadron restriction?

What the hell is wrong with the Army nowadays?  By the way, he has no intentions to re-up.  He joined to do his duty during war time but has no intentions of making the Army a career.

Ah, sounds like my old Navy days, take a test, pass it then wait till they figure out how many thay want to advance, ahh
the days of drinking and grummbling...

I don't know what the Army Regs say, but personally If he rates to be a Sgt then he should get promoted.  Even if it's the day he gets out.

I've had Marines go on terminal leave and never coming back and I still made sure they got their promotion and sent their warrant off to them if they came up select grade after leaving.

Thats odd, with that much time left. We had guys in my unit get promoted up until a month before they ETS'd, which didn't make too much sense to me with so little time left, but whatever. Looks good on a resume I guess.
Chalk it up to the big green Army dick that fucks all. He's not alone.

The board is  only to get promotable status.

There is a points cutoff to limit how meny people get promoted, every month the promotion points come out, you must have more than the cutoff to get promoted.

You get points for the board up to 350, you also get points for schools, awards, correspondence, and civilian education. If he dosent have enough thats just how it is.

He can get a field promotion if he is in a E5 possition and his LT colonel will sign off but thats the only way.

I'd take a deep breath and not feed your sons annoyance.

AFAICT, the LT (really, should be the PSG, which might be the actual problem) doesn't feel like pushing the paperwork for someone about to get out.  Wouldn't be the first time that's happened. It's possible it's some active-duty thing and promoting him would throw some sand somwehere in the bureaucracy, but most likely just ordinary laziness.  

By the way, not trying to imply that your son is not a great soldier, but really, what NCO/Officer is going to tell a deploying soldier's family he ISN'T high speed?    

And thats EXACTLY why he will not get his 5. Why give someone a reward for being a quitter? ( the Armys way of thinking)

I am thinking it is a Squadron thing.  There are several E-4 Promotables in the unit with a longer time to go than him.

You are right about the big green weenie.  The only thing that is bothersome is that he would like to get discharged as a Sergeant as a personal goal.  He has worked hard.

I never heard of anything like that while I was in the army. The question is though, if he is dead set on getting out why is he worried about getting the promotion. If that was the only thing keeping him from reenlisting I can understand.

Why would you put someone in a Team Leader position if they don't plan to stay in? That messes with Squad cohesion and is not necessary. Sorry that he is upset but I do understand the Army's side.

For the record, there is no TIS remaining requirement to be promoted to Sergeant.  If he makes points and is otherwise qualified, he gets promoted.  TIS requirements for promotion do not start until Staff Sergeant.

#1 mistake––your son listened to some fucking lieutenant about enlisted promotions.


edited for clarity.

Squarden doesn't have any say in it, unless they flag him for doing something wrong. If he makes points he makes points.

On the other hand, if he is just wanting to get e5 so he can say he did I wouldn't really want to promote him either. Now if he was trying to get e5 so he could stay in and be a good leader for his troops then that's another story.

Why not?––his son was the right man for the job and the deployment.

The good thing about deployments is you have ample opportunities to grow other leaders from within the unit.grow other leaders

you guys are missing the point refer to my post above.

His kid is promotable but isent making the promotion points cutoff. Thats not anyones choice.

Took 6-8 years to make E-5 when I was in but that was the Marines.

Of course you need to make cutoff first.

The OP stated this:  

You could blame the officer, or you could recognize that what we have here is a game of telephone. The message from the PL gets distorted to the kid, which gets further distorted when it's told to the father and gets distorted further still when it's told here. It could be that the PL figured out that he won't make the points needed before he leaves, at this point.

they may not pin him but he will automaticly get the pay grade and promotion on his LES and ERB

If he makes points he will be E5 they cant stop that.

That sucks. Re up and get the promotion. Other wise bail and live with it.

Unless it has changed, and I wasn't informed:

• Sergeant (E-5) - 8 months TIG as an E-4 and 36 months (3 years) TIS.



• Staff Sergeant (E-6) - 10 months TIG as an E-5 and 84 months (7 years) TIS.

• Sergeant (E-5) - 4 months TIG and 18 months TIS.



• Staff Sergeant (E-6) - 5 months TIG and 48 months (4 years) TIS.

Why bother giving it to him when they can use at as bait to retain a different soldier? Same thing happened to me but in my case i was 2 weeks away from getting pinned (already a Corporal) when the docs decided to kick me out for medical reasons. Once the unit got the word suddenly they where going to pin me the following month. Well that month came and went still no promotion. I'm not bitter though the med board people promoted me instead.



Did i mention i received a purple heart and they knocked down my V device that was supposed to go with it to a regular Arcom? I sacrificed a whole lot for that unit and i got a dick up the ass in return. I love the Army and the men i deployed with but i despise a certain group of people within it.






ETA: Good idea on not adding fuel his frustrations, just tell him to clear as fast as possible and that he should be proud knowing he served honorably and leave it at that.
 

My understanding is that the paperwork has already been pushed when he passed the Board.  He has been put on an Army wide promotion list that is dependent upon points.

I am also not implying that he is a great soldier.   He is however a natural leader and well liked.  He consistently scored very high in everything from shooting to PT to army academics in training.   He even boxed and won a gold medal while in Korea.  He is no slouch.  He is definitely E-5 material.

If he doesn't have the points it's his fault not the Army's. Hate to come off so hard but that is the way it is. He should have known how many points he had, should have known  how many points over the past months were enough to get promoted and he should have been doing something about it. He has no one else to blame but himself.

The civilian education is the key to fast tracking in the Army Promotion system.  I took every CLEP test I could till it was max'd out.

I wasn't, and I understand how messages get crossed up, particularly when you are dealing with parents..  The joe shouldn't be talking to the PL about promotions unless it's just idle "water cooler" chat.  9 out of 10 times, the PL doesn't know the whole system or the kid's particular situation.  Someone that is a TL should know who to go to within the platoon about promotions, and they wear stripes, not a bar.

 

Well, I certainly don't know how the Army works, but if my Division Officers don't understand how the enlisted promotion system works they're not getting their SWO pin.

He is in the Secondary Zone because he hasn't been in 36 months.

The cutoff score will be higher in the Secondary Zone



Correct me if I am wrong

As far as I know they can not legally non-rec you just because you are not reenlisting?


If they seriously told him he that he was getting a non-rec because he wasn't reenlisting he should see a lawyer at the JAG office.

Yes, once he passes the board his points are effective that month-no more 90 day wait.  His points are viewable on his ERB(there is a link to it on his AKO).  If his points are incorrect, or seem incorrect,, he needs to contact his battalion S-1 guys(phone, email, anyhow).  I know from the many people I've sent to the board, S-1 seems to screw up the initial promotion point worksheet(misplacing awards, etc).  Depending on his MOS, there is not much of a reason a smart kid can't get promoted-there in time to work on it even when deployed.

The first number is the MOS the first PZ primary zone for E5 and the first SZ  is secondary zone E5



PROMOTION QUALIFICATION SCORES FOR PROMOTION DURING MARCH 2010
CUT-OFF SCORES ELIGIBLES ON LIST PROMOTIONS (EST)
MOS PZ SZ PZ SZ PZ SZ PZ SZ PZ SZ PZ SZ
09L 350 350 450 450 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
11B 501 503 564 564 979 258 265 340 176 54 64 87
11C 564 564 602 602 192 37 2 16 4 8 1 9
12B (SEE 21B) (SEE 21B) (SEE 21B) (SEE 21B) (SEE 21B) (SEE 21B)
12Y (SEE 21Y) (SEE 21Y) (SEE 21Y) (SEE 21Y) (SEE 21Y) (SEE 21Y)
13B 480 485 687 687 135 104 215 121 44 34 19 11
13D 664 798 671 674 255 40 37 20 24 0 15 10
13F 421 429 798 798 47 31 54 81 23 17 0 0
13M 396 511 665 665 20 6 47 17 9 3 3 2
13P 492 511 798 798 6 1 24 5 3 1 1 0
13R 798 798 798 798 4 2 3 4 0 0 0 0
13S 798 798 798 798 0 0 38 6 0 0 0 0
13W 707 798 798 798 31 3 12 8 3 0 0 0
14E 590 618 798 798 76 13 7 8 3 1 0 0
14J 534 598 587 587 49 12 4 9 11 2 3 4
14S 516 516 798 798 1 5 24 20 0 1 0 0
14T 651 651 798 798 175 35 50 24 4 1 0 0
15B 798 798 798 798 17 6 16 2 0 0 0 0
15D 728 798 798 798 52 1 30 4 1 0 0 0
15E * * 798 798 * * 0 0 * * 0 0
15F 686 798 777 798 34 1 18 5 1 0 1 0
15G 698 798 798 798 60 7 31 8 6 0 0 0
15H 620 798 757 757 35 5 34 8 2 0 0 1
15J 798 798 717 772 2 2 37 12 0 0 2 1
15N 798 798 798 798 5 0 38 8 0 0 1 0
15P 722 798 784 792 194 8 106 33 2 0 1 1
15Q 665 682 717 723 38 13 18 6 3 1 2 1
15R 673 798 754 754 272 8 122 19 12 0 1 1
15S 475 476 798 798 23 3 75 11 7 1 0 0
15T 657 728 737 742 323 19 179 43 16 1 5 5
15U 651 798 798 798 53 14 52 22 4 0 0 0
15W+* 350 525 450 450 7 2 2 1 7 2 2 1
15Y 578 798 798 798 54 0 56 14 3 0 0 0
18B 798 798 616 616 0 0 0 3 0 0 0 3
18C 798 798 798 798 0 0 3 1 0 0 0 0
18D 798 798 798 798 0 0 4 7 0 0 0 0
18E 798 798 798 798 0 0 1 1 0 0 0 0
19D 506 509 671 671 276 74 135 168 24 12 6 10
19K 350 350 687 692 12 19 265 65 12 19 16 6
21B 432 448 617 629 60 26 83 71 34 12 13 10
21C 468 468 798 798 5 1 8 9 0 1 0 0
21D 350 350 450 450 2 0 0 1 2 0 0 1
21E 578 618 * * 83 24 * * 11 4 * *
21H * * 708 728 * * 49 20 * * 2 1
21K+ 350 492 * * 1 1 * * 1 1 * *
21M 798 798 624 798 21 0 2 0 0 0 2 0
21N * * 798 798 * * 121 32 * * 1 0
21P 798 798 766 798 0 0 4 5 0 0 1 0
21R 798 798 * * 28 2 * * 0 0 * *
21T * 707 768 450 450 13 2 1 0 1 1 1 0
21V 798 798 798 798 2 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
21W 798 798 * * 128 9 * * 0 0 * *
21Y 557 798 798 798 24 4 23 3 3 0 0 0
25B 754 798 756 764 680 68 395 84 10 1 13 4
25C 505 527 798 798 26 9 5 8 10 2 0 0
25E 798 798 798 798 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
25F+ 350 350 636 653 10 1 12 5 10 1 6 2
25L 798 798 780 798 190 9 134 10 0 0 5 0
25M 798 798 798 798 23 6 15 8 0 0 0 0
25N 548 571 798 798 22 5 13 18 6 4 0 0
25P 389 389 582 594 11 5 20 8 9 5 2 2
25Q+ 350 350 695 697 13 7 149 24 13 7 9 2
25R * 350 350 450 798 0 2 10 0 0 2 10 0
25S 617 657 683 684 166 13 90 17 26 3 7 4
25U 662 663 798 798 494 86 547 137 20 8 1 1
25V 798 798 798 798 47 3 20 2 0 0 0 0
27D 384 384 731 750 7 5 83 16 7 5 9 3
31B 652 657 798 798 774 175 704 236 28 10 0 0
31D 556 798 769 798 1 0 78 19 1 0 1 0
31E 590 590 733 733 40 9 17 35 4 2 1 1
35F 576 576 746 746 220 98 50 81 32 16 5 4
35G 491 495 720 728 5 12 33 20 1 5 1 1
35H+ 350 350 605 798 4 2 10 1 4 2 5 0
35L * 798 798 450 450 0 0 2 6 0 0 2 6
35M 699 798 798 798 85 27 9 38 2 0 0 0
35N+* 350 350 450 455 7 4 6 7 7 4 6 7
35P 798 798 798 798 21 1 11 12 0 0 0 1
35PAD 798 798 450 450 0 0 5 2 0 0 5 2
35PAE (SEE 35PAD)(SEE 35PAD) (SEE 35PAD) (SEE 35PAD) (SEE 35PAD) (SEE 35PAD)
35PAN (SEE 35PAD)(SEE 35PAD) (SEE 35PAD) (SEE 35PAD) (SEE 35PAD) (SEE 35PAD)
35PAP (SEE 35PAD)(SEE 35PAD) (SEE 35PAD) (SEE 35PAD) (SEE 35PAD) (SEE 35PAD)
35PCM 350 798 450 450 2 0 1 0 2 0 1 0
35PDG (SEE 35PAD)(SEE 35PAD) (SEE 35PAD) (SEE 35PAD) (SEE 35PAD) (SEE 35PAD)
35PFR 618 798 798 798 1 0 0 0 1 0 0 0
35PPF 350 350 450 450 2 0 1 0 2 0 2 0
35PPG (SEE 35PPF)(SEE 35PPF) (SEE 35PPF) (SEE 35PPF) (SEE 35PPF) (SEE 35PPF)
35PRU 798 798 450 450 3 1 1 0 0 0 1 0
35S 798 798 798 798 39 15 89 19 0 0 0 0
35T 798 798 798 798 188 16 50 10 0 0 0 0
36B 744 798 798 798 165 17 113 21 3 0 2 1
37F 679 718 798 798 48 23 65 53 9 1 0 0
38B 798 798 798 798 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
42A 684 691 783 795 569 130 794 197 46 12 25 7
42F+ 350 659 * * 9 1 * * 9 1 * *
42R 554 582 747 749 30 21 100 45 8 7 3 7
44B (SEE 91W) * * (SEE 91W) * * (SEE 91W) * *
44C (SEE 36B) (SEE 36B) (SEE 36B) (SEE 36B) (SEE 36B) (SEE 36B)
44E (SEE 91E) (SEE 91E) (SEE 91E) (SEE 91E) (SEE 91E) (SEE 91E)
45B (SEE 91F) * * (SEE 91F) * * (SEE 91F) * *
45G (SEE 91G) * * (SEE 91G) * * (SEE 91G) * *
45K (SEE 91K) (SEE 91K) (SEE 91K) (SEE 91K) (SEE 91K) (SEE 91K)
46Q 499 499 450 450 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 0
46R * 398 475 450 450 2 1 2 0 2 1 2 0
51C 798 798 798 798 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
52C (SEE 91C) (SEE 91C) (SEE 91C) (SEE 91C) (SEE 91C) (SEE 91C)
52D (SEE 91D) (SEE 91D) (SEE 91D) (SEE 91D) (SEE 91D) (SEE 91D)
56M 675 798 780 781 56 13 116 15 2 0 2 3
62B (SEE 91L) (SEE 91L) (SEE 91L) (SEE 91L) (SEE 91L) (SEE 91L)
63A (SEE 91A) (SEE 91A) (SEE 91A) (SEE 91A) (SEE 91A) (SEE 91A)
63B (SEE 91B) (SEE 91B) (SEE 91B) (SEE 91B) (SEE 91B) (SEE 91B)
63D (SEE 91P) (SEE 91P) (SEE 91P) (SEE 91P) (SEE 91P) (SEE 91P)
63H (SEE 91H) (SEE 91H) (SEE 91H) (SEE 91H) (SEE 91H) (SEE 91H)
63J (SEE 91J) * * (SEE 91J) * * (SEE 91J) * *
63M (SEE 91M) (SEE 91M) (SEE 91M) (SEE 91M) (SEE 91M) (SEE 91M)
68A 758 798 783 785 98 9 75 15 2 0 1 1
68D 737 798 795 798 115 9 62 6 4 0 2 0
68E 755 798 798 798 194 19 90 10 4 0 1 1
68G 736 798 798 798 80 6 59 13 2 0 0 0
68H 798 798 798 798 13 2 12 2 0 0 0 1
68J 736 798 780 798 205 11 91 8 8 0 5 0
68K 769 769 798 798 187 21 152 23 3 1 1 1
68M 798 798 798 798 36 1 23 1 0 0 0 0
68P 798 798 798 798 169 12 57 13 0 0 0 0
68Q 724 798 798 798 65 13 56 6 5 0 2 0
68R 717 798 792 792 102 5 88 23 5 0 0 2
68S 705 708 798 798 61 12 54 5 3 2 0 1
68T 686 798 777 795 28 5 32 7 4 0 1 1
68V+ 350 798 796 798 1 0 67 0 1 0 3 0
68W 699 702 792 794 1301 231 1076 318 109 12 25 15
68X 737 798 798 798 4 1 12 9 1 0 0 0
74D 560 567 780 780 195 31 537 129 25 6 4 2
79R * * 798 798 * * 0 0 * * 0 0
79S * * 798 798 * * 0 0 * * 0 0
88H 594 601 798 798 63 14 222 21 7 3 2 0
88K 645 798 798 798 50 6 21 5 2 0 0 0
88L 798 798 798 798 9 2 12 1 0 0 0 0
88M 666 674 760 760 1167 180 914 225 46 5 12 6
88N 600 711 635 635 64 7 43 21 11 1 9 7
89A 798 798 * * 16 1 * * 0 0 * *
89B 676 688 719 719 223 19 91 21 14 1 6 4
89D * 457 457 450 450 33 13 10 6 10 8 10 6
91A+ 350 508 798 798 2 1 63 3 2 1 0 0
91B 672 798 788 788 1640 149 1206 233 60 0 2 4
91C 700 798 793 798 149 10 24313 13 0 3 2
91D 565 587 795 798 162 20 263 42 28 2 6 1
91E 365 798 798 798 2 0 111 13 2 0 1 0
91F 598 703 * * 64 5 * * 10 1 * *
91G 591 591 * * 8 5 * * 1 1 * *
91H 533 648 798 798 27 4 170 16 4 1 0 0
91J 595 595 * * 68 13 * * 11 3 * *
91K 798 798 798 798 11 0 64 5 0 0 0 0
91L 554 798 798 798 9 1 25 5 1 0 0 0
91M 798 798 798 798 24 3 89 13 0 0 0 0
91P 350 350 798 798 0 0 10 8 0 0 0 0
91W 662 798 * * 65 5 * * 1 0 * *
92A 662 703 798 798 674 69 993 107 46 2 15 4
92F 682 798 798 798 963 76 823 91 55 0 20 6
92G 639 666 761 771 361 30 530 71 27 2 9 4
92L 798 798 798 798 0 0 19 7 0 0 0 1
92M 679 798 784 784 47 9 26 11 1 0 0 1
92R 798 798 798 798 49 30 56 9 0 1 1 0
92S 798 798 798 798 57 13 41 15 0 0 1 0
92W 700 798 798 798 187 20 144 25 11 0 1 1
92Y 627 628 733 733 522 137 608 164 71 20 41 21
94A 798 798 798 798 15 1 28 3 0 0 0 0
94D+ 350 798 531 798 2 0 1 0 2 0 1 0
94E 719 798 773 798 149 7 86 5 4 0 2 1
94F 735 798 798 798 118 21 92 9 1 0 0 0
94H 651 651 450 450 28 6 0 1 1 1 0 1
94K+ 350 798 798 798 3 0 2 0 3 0 0 0
94L 798 798 798 798 32 0 17 2 0 0 0 0
94M 798 798 798 798 45 4 9 4 0 0 0 0
94P 355 798 798 798 3 0 7 2 3 0 0 0
94R 798 798 798 798 14 0 21 4 0 0 0 0
94S 350 350 450 450 0 2 0 0 0 2 0 0
94T 798 798 798 798 5 2 1 1 0 0 0 0
94Y 798 798 798 798 5 1 3 1 0 0 0 0

The Army––or at least my corner of it, promotions are "NCO business".  The Company and Battalion commanders, or DA Level hold the promotion authority, but the NCOs make it work and push the promotions.

The Army knows how many E-5's they need (vacancies) in each MOS.  They set the cutoff score to promote just enough to fill the vancancy.

Neither of these exist in the ARMY fellas..

If your son hasn't finished his 8 year commitment, I would recommend he join the guard or reserves. It will meet his goal of being discharged as an NCO, and not have to worry about being called up from the IRR.

If he is not making it at a 509 cutoff he needs to check his records.

After Korea he was assigned to a hardass Cav Squadron at Ft Bliss.  He went through a year’s training before deployment.  His Troop commander was Ranger and had some very tough troop requirements.  The troop referred to the Commander as Cpt Sobel (Band of Brothers).  For instance, to get any time off or to be considered for promotion they had to meet Ranger PT requirements and qualify expert on all weapons.  He said he had 14-16 hour training days.  It was rare to get even a Sunday off.  Typically they worked from 4:45 in the morning until after 8:00 at night sometimes much later than that.  His platoon started out with 43 guys but by the time of deployment the platoon was down to 19.  The commander made the training so hard that more than half the platoon fell out along the way, many with injuries.  My son said Cav Scout OSUT was much easier than his average pre deployment training day.  When other regimental units were getting three or four day weekends his troop were running up mountains in the desert with full battle rattle.

He has not had any time to take any courses that would have added to his points.  It may be easy to do that in some Army units but not in his.  He was exhausted most of the time from the rigorous training.

The problem is that with the decoration that is coming he should have enough points but has been told that won’t hack it because he is too close to ETS to be promoted.

When I was going for E-6 in my Mos, the cutoff score was 798 10 months out of the year.  I made it when it dropped to 760.

I don't know as much about the EPS as I should, but here is solid advice that I give every one of my soldiers:

If your referring to the spelling sure, It's supposed to be Squadron, my bad. If your refering to Squadron being in the army your wrong.

In the army the cav has Squadron's instead of battalions and troops instead of companies.

Squadron they really are in the army.

What do Armored Cavalry Regiments have?

Is this not an Army unit?: Soldiers from the 2nd Squadron, 6th Cavalry Regiment, 25th Combat Aviation Brigade
http://www.army.mil/-news/2009/11/30/31138-iraqi-helo-pilots-get-inside-look-at-us-army-aviation/

There is a time left in service requirement for NCO promotions.  He would have to extend his enlistment again by a few months to met the obligation.

Being in the Secondary Zone he has about 470 points.  He was hoping that the Bronze Star he was put in for would add enough points so that he could get promoted.   However, it does't look like any number of points will do the job since he was told he was going to be froze because of his ETS.

My son is in the 6th Squadron of the First Cavalry Regiment.  It is made up of all Cav Scouts (19Ds).

There is no freeze because of ETS.

I was on my first month of stoploss when I got promoted to E5. I got Stoplossed for 17 months. I could have gone to the board for E6 I chose not to. I have friends who got promoted to E5 also while stoplossed.

Your son will be promoted if he makes cutoff. It's automatically added to your ERB and LES.

Is that for me or him?

This Jarhead thought the Army had squadrons.

Edit: I'm thinking that means my post kicked him SQUARE IN THE NUT SACK.

Delta has Squadrons.

SNAFU